View Full Version : How do you make your gun/accessory/gear choices?
I don't think it's any secret that I am a huge proponent of starting off with the best quality, and most basic configuration, carbine you can and spending money on magazines, ammo, and training, as evidenced by threads like Go shoot the gun! (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=28658). Further, I assume like goals as covered in this thread (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=64658).
So within that framework, and understanding that I have that bias, I wonder how others make their gun, accessory, and gear choices, and how they wrap those choices into implementation.
Some, myself included, will research the hell out of a product prior to purchase. Any product. TV, car, gun, shoes, whatever. The internet is both a boon, in that it has a lot of information easily available, and a burden, in that this information can be overwhelming. Like most of you, I am sure, I tend to enter a store or dealership knowing more about the product than the guy selling it.
But how do you apply that research, and at what phase of the process? For example, have you ever bought a Raptor (http://www.fordvehicles.com/f150raptor/) when you needed a King Ranch (http://www.fordvehicles.com/trucks/superduty/trim/?trim=f250kingranch)? and how did you get there, and how did you resolve it?
I approach firearms a little differently, in part because of my intended application. Now that I am pretty well aquainted with the platform and how I want to use it, it's easy to have "test bed" carbines that get used on the range and in classes and "critical use" carbines that frankly usually live in the safe. Accessories that work well in the test-bed phase may make their way to the critical use carbines. This is what works for me, now, in part because I know what works for me and where I'm going.
But when starting out, I have to admit, I wish I had just bought a basic AR carbine and gone and shot the gun. I made the mistake early on of falling victim to my own ego and the "I'm me, I'm different, I know what I like" mentality. I researched the hell out of the best guns, parts, and pieces and built myself a gun that was really impressive by the standards of the day and got many kudos on the forum where I posted pictures of it. In retrospect and in truth this was really my only goal so I patted myself on the back. But also, in truth, the gun sucked on the range for my needs. It took many, many years for me to undo what I had done both on the gun and in my own mind, and it took me spending a year with a basic AK with a light, RDS, and sling to really understand how badly I had ****ed up, and all the time and money I had wasted going about things that way.
So I'm curious. To those that have been doing the AR thing for awhile, how did you make your initial and early choices? How does that compare with how you do things now? and to those just starting out, how are you arriving at your configuraions and accessories with zero, or limited, trigger time on the platform? and, other than "it's my money I'll do what I want with it" how are you justifying to yourself the purchase of more than just the basic gun?
Bear in mind the attitude from the first two links I posted above. If your justification or rationale includes "I like it, it looks cool" there is NOTHING wrong with that, but it's not the basis for a decision making process that I'm interested in for the purposes of this thread.
rob,
I'm really curious as to what whiz-bang accessories you're referring to and how they made your weapon suck on the range for your needs. I can understand someone new to the system not needing an aftermarket trigger...
Are you referring to things that you feel a new shooter doesn't need, or is it simply not spending $300+ on a new rail, or magpul furniture, and instead using that money on ammo and training?
In my case, an RDS and light were the only accessories I put on my AR, because I was familiar with using those in basic drills & MOUT techniques I ran in the Marine Corps. Then I decided to change the grip out to an MOE because I didn't like the feel of the A2.
rob,
I'm really curious as to what whiz-bang accessories you're referring to and how they made your weapon suck on the range for your needs. I can understand someone new to the system not needing an aftermarket trigger...
Are you referring to things that you feel a new shooter doesn't need, or is it simply not spending $300+ on a new rail, or magpul furniture, and instead using that money on ammo and training?
It was a combination of a lot of things, but regardless of the specifics of the products they all shared one thing in common, and that was that the evaluation process for choosing them was based wholly in word-of-mouth and internet reviews and as it turned out most were completely superfluous. It was not a quality issue as all were considered top of the line of the day, and many still are today, if not the product itself then the manufacturer it came from.
In short, I thought I knew what I wanted/needed but couldn't have been more wrong, and in hindsight would have been better off, both in terms of time and money, starting with a ligther, less expensive, simpler, and more basic carbine and modifying as I found it lacking based on actual use.
I started with the basic AR setup. Fixed A2, M4 upper, carry handle..ect. No bells or whistles. Shot it for a while, then moved to a flat-top with flip up sights and 1-3x scope (still m4 config.)
Now i'm moving to a top tier upper that i can rig out how i want it...mainly cause i can afford it now that i'm out of college.
I just look at what i want(or think i want), quality, cost, and weigh all three together. I am still fairly new to the ar scene (owned one for 3yrs), but i'm fairly young anyway.
I try to keep everything simple, including my guns.
Doc Safari
11-04-10, 09:50
I don't have enough money to "experiment", so I choose my gear to be as close to proven military quality as possible, with rare exceptions.
I do quite a bit of research prior to purchase, and I'm not afraid to admit I don't know everything and rely on others' advice.
The internet and this forum have saved me thousands of dollars. Just before joining this forum, I was an inch from ordering a S&W M&P M4, until I read about cracked lowers and saw that it was a little to "right of chart" for me.
Right now I am struggling with the "mid vs. carbine" gas system. I see the advantages of the mid length system, but my tendency to keep it as close to what's issued to the troops as possible is eating at me. I'm tempted to make my next carbine a legal 14.5" barrel with pinned flash hider.
Magic_Salad0892
11-04-10, 10:41
When I go to the range - I ask myself a few questions: (After doing a drill/something and seeing my deficiency.)
What will make me more accurate?
What will make me faster?
What will help me gain range, and at what expense?
What will help me be seamless in transition (In other words - will it slow me down, or bar me?)?
What will help me adapt?
Will said equipment become a crutch for less skill? (The reason I didn't by the Magpul BAD lever.)
One those questions have been answered and I have found a piece of equipment I need/want I then ask:
How proven is it, who uses it?
Does it have a real world application?
Does it have more than one application?
Is it going to do anything for me that I can't do on my own?
How much does it weigh?
and finally?
Can this item potentially save my life?
This is my standard method of choosing items now. I find a problem and I bridge the gap. This is why I no longer use RDS, only variable or magnified optics.
It didn't always be this way.
I started out about 10 years ago, with a 20" bushmaster,standard A2 stock, stock handguards, I shot it off and on, not really getting serious with it, basically plinking, etc, It was'nt until I stumbled on to this site did things start to change..It turned out that I found out that G&R tactical was about 20 minutes from my house, That's when things really started to change..for the first time here was a store that had all these AR-15 assessories that I'd only seen in catalogs, in stock,I could pick up and look at, and Grant would take time to explain how they worked and why you would want them. I had Grant evaluate my bushmaster, He showed me what was right and what was wrong with it. He restaked the carrier key. It was at that point, I decided I wanted something better. That's about the time I joined this site, and started reading, doing some research, asking questions. When I did'nt understand something I'd drive out to G&R and ask Grant, He'd always take time to explain. My first M4 type rifle was a Charled Daly..I still have it, I made a few changes to it, Troy rear, troy rail, Magpul stock, triggerguard..and a LMT BCG, Vickers sling, and a Comp3 aimpoint. last spring, I sold a PTR91 I had, and took the money and had Grant build me a rifle. This time around using mostly DD parts, 16" DD pencil bbl, fixed front, DD upper, BCG, lower, G&R LPK, magpul stock,triggerguard, buis, Blem'ed Ras rail. Vickers sling, aimpoint, swapped from the Daly rifle. This was a much better setup. Shortly after buying this I found out Grant was going to have defensive carbine and pistol classes at the club I'm a member of... Wow! I attended all the carbine classes and only missed one pistol class. The carbine classes really helped me, not only that, I was able to evaluate my rifle by using it, doing drills, and basically found that's it's pretty much good to go. Still, some changes needed to be made. The only other changes made were, QD receiver plate installed, QD point on rail installed, BCM charging handle installed,DD fixed rear sight installed, and a SF X-300, picked up in a trade, This rifle set up like this, is, simple, basic, which is right up my alley, If anything, I'd like to thank Grant for taking time to answer my questions, opening my eyes, and for straighting me out..otherwise, I'd be another idiot out shooting dirt clods with my Bushmaster..
Great thread Rob!
Its really interesting how I ended up purchasing my carbine, and I ended up there having only ever shot 1 .223 gun in my entire life.
I have a very extensive background in high risk sports, and grew up in an environment that was deadly 9 months out of the year. I was trained in most outdoor sports I participate in by the Captain of Search and Rescue for Sweetwater County WY. I lived in a state where idiots get themselves killed annually by not having the right equipment. The term "as good as" has always been considered a warning, or potential death sentence.
Therefore when I buy gear I buy it with the ability of that product to complete the intended use safely and effectively and to the best current standards the technology allows for. Second unfortunately for me is price, I do have to consider price at this point in my life, so I either hold off on buying anything until I save up, or I do more research until I find my intended product. I've found with lots of outdoor gear (Mountain Hardware for example), that the top top tier brands do deserve to be on top, but there is usually one brand right below them that successfully fills my first requirement, but may not have all the bells and whistles of most expensive option. Unfortunately one thing that is a major short coming of mine is that I also like to physically hold, and see products I buy before I drop tons of money on them, therefore I tend to shop local.
When it came to my AR I wanted a SHTF gun and I didn't know what, where or how to go about it. I grew up shooting, I loved shooting, but I felt that having a carbine and knowing how to use it was a good investment. I sat down and weighed the benefits of each assault rifle, and I went with the M4 for several reasons I will skim over here.
After that I went about researching the brands, and the prices using my requirements. I got bogged down in bullshit I found online, but started with just reading everything I could about the history and function of the weapon. I then spent one day every two weeks touring local gun shops and looking for brands I had found in my research. I probably picked up and held over 25 various models of AR in this time period. 90% of them were from brands like DPMS, Oly, Remington, Rock River. 90% of the time the gun store clerk said the dreaded words "As good as". I eventually stumbled onto this site about a month before I had saved up enough for a DPMS and then I finally made my choice with info I found on this forum, and saved myself a headache. One thing of note is I never stumbled onto TOS in my google searches, and I only ever searched technical data on the m4...;)
Then in regards to add ons, I thought only about what I needed out of the gun, and how to get there using the same requirements above. I settled on a pretty KISS concept, that only addresses things I need out of the carbine. My gun looks pretty boring on the pictures thread with its Red Dot, BUIS, and MOE foregrip. But I trust it for its intended purpose, and it's only the end use that needs work at this point. That is accomplished by training 2-4 times a month, of which I go out one on one with a good friend and Iraq vet, who helps me train. It's pretty nice to have a buddy that spent the first year after coming home training West Point Cadets on the use of the m4 in an urban environment...;)
RedHorseman
11-04-10, 11:08
I firmly believe in acquiring the right tool for the job. Evaluate your need/application and make a decision based off of what best suits that need. I find, too often, people are not honest and objective when choosing guns and gear, but are instead encapsulated by marketing and hype that is ever-prevalent in the firearms industry.
In my younger days, I have purchased firearms/gear/accessories because they were the newest, coolest thing in the market at that particular time. What I have learned from my experiences though is to never buy anything that is new on the market. I, for one, hate to be the guinea pig for new products as they go through their product cycle and manufacturers upgrade flaws in their design. Not to mention, I have seen several recalls for new firearms.
I have also made the mistake of buying firearms and gear based purely off word-of-mouth recommendations. This is not as much of an issue if you get good advice from a trusted source: however, I find that even if a product may be a legitimately good product, it may not fit my specific needs/applications. I have learned that individual preferences differ as it comes to gear selection and guns. Bottom line, is the gear that I am purchasing relevant to what I am doing? That goes along with the advice I normally give to new competition shooters. I tell them to go and shoot one or two matches with the most basic gear with which they can get by. Then evaluate their need for gear based on their match experience and based off of current gear choices used by other competitors.
Nowadays, I have sold off quite a bit of my safe queens and have really diminished the amount of guns that I do not shoot or use. Mentality wise, I have switched from more of a collector to an end user. To this end, my needs have really driven all of my firearms-related purchases. I like to research anything I am going to buy, which usually means perusing internet reviews and soliciting opinions from trusted sources. With that being said, the internet can have a large volume of disinformation, so I place lot of value on user feedback. This is one of the reasons why I appreciate the real-world knowledge from this forum. This does not always prevent me from purchasing an item that just may not work out, but I have found that nothing really substitutes for trying the product out. Sometimes an idea looks good on paper but does not meet expectations when you step on the range. I just chalk those up as lessons learned.
Gear selection is a long process (or should be). For me, it involves the following:
1. Seeing a review online.
2. Talking to instructor friends about their opinion on the item.
3. Contacting the manufacturer and asking them a bunch of questions.
4. Buying said item and examining it for weeks.
5. Installing item on my personal gun and taking it to the range for drills.
6. Taking said item to an advanced shooting school.
7. Attempt to break item (drop test, running into walls, etc).
8. Read more reviews online and post my experience.
9. Figure out if the item truly made a difference over what I am already running.
10. How much weight is this item compared to what I am already using.
One thing I have noticed is that as time has gone by (and I have grown in my training knowledge) more and more things are coming off my weapon. A couple years ago, you would have found a long quad rail, vertical grip, single point sling, UBR stock, SS barrel, US Optics SN4 and a 9 volt weaponlight.
Now you find me using a pencil barrel (chrome lined), TRX Extreme rail, Micro Aimpoint, BFG Vickers 2 point sling, X300 light, and a SOPMOD stock.
Less is more.
C4
Mine was pretty simple.
Came to M4C.net, read a lot of the discussions and absorbed what I could. Then, asked questions both in a public manner as well as in PM's with the SME and IP's on the board.
I am proud to say not once was I shuttled off or told to F'off. The gentlemen I questioned all seemed happy to share their knowledge of the platform to a person who wanted to learn a bit.
But when starting out, I have to admit, I wish I had just bought a basic AR carbine and gone and shot the gun. I made the mistake early on of falling victim to my own ego and the "I'm me, I'm different, I know what I like" mentality. I researched the hell out of the best guns, parts, and pieces and built myself a gun that was really impressive by the standards of the day and got many kudos on the forum where I posted pictures of it. In retrospect and in truth this was really my only goal so I patted myself on the back. But also, in truth, the gun sucked on the range for my needs. It took many, many years for me to undo what I had done both on the gun and in my own mind, and it took me spending a year with a basic AK with a light, RDS, and sling to really understand how badly I had ****ed up, and all the time and money I had wasted going about things that way.
Rob,
This made me laugh. I think most people go through this phase at one time or another. I did when I was younger, then I pulled my head out of my ass and started looking at things practically. It's hard to fight off the ego bug sometimes.
I used to think that I need ... number of ARs with all top of the line (most expensive) gear and then I would be happy. Nope, I always wanted more and cooler stuff. I felt like a mental patient addicted to hearing people compliment my guns and I realized I could have all the cool guns in the world but it wouldn't make me happy, or a better shooter. Then I started training a lot and almost all of my views have changed.
It is a funny transformation though... like someone just poors a bucket of cold water on you.
This is pretty much my reasoning now.
First - Do I NEED it?
Second - Is it practical for MY needs?
Third - I look at function (how well does it work for MY needs)
Last - Do I really NEED it?
Once I decide what I need in general then I begin process of elimination. ie: comfort, price, weight, durability, etc.
IE: My home defense AR is a LMT 14.5", KAC rail, Scout M600, and LMT fixed BUIS...
All I need is fixed sights and a good light. Plus my HD gun is very light weight without all of the other accessories.
After the initial **** up of purchasing a Bushmaster flat top carbine and learning that such a purchase was a **** up, I went about un****ing the rifle as much as I could.
I upgraded the extractor, staked the gas key, castle nut, put in an H-buffer and went out to shoot it.
After a while I realised that I was unable to properly position my body [squared up] because the AWB compliant pinned M4 stock and RE were simply too long. I wanted to keep it light and simple to I opted for a Magpul MOE stock. Installed it, adjusted it to my desired LOP and pinned it in place and went back to shooting it.
After some time had passed in that configuration I saw that I would like a RDS instead of the irons. I read all the threads I could find on M4C to find the RDS/mount that was right for me. I knew I would never have an NVG device on the gun, so there was no need to pay extra for a sight that would be compatable. I decided on an Aimpoint and even thought I wanted an H1 at the time the jury was still out [I think] on weather they would stand up as well as their other models, I did not want to be the experiment so I went with a model having a longer track record. Once again I had to un-**** the BM by installing a taller front sight post in order to line up with a Mil Spec BUIS.
Along the way I had made some mistakes like UTG rails and such, but mostly I would like to think that I go out and shoot the gun until I find something is lacking and then I look to those who have more experience than myself, like you guys, for advice on how to remidy the shortcoming. So far, I have been very pleased with your assistance.
I have been shooting AR15s for about 8 or so years, since I turned 18. In 06 when I got out of the Army I started to take a real hard look at my rifle, which was a Bushamster. I never noticed its shortcomming before because it was just a toy because I had the real thing.
So I decided to go to Colt and traded for a A2 Hbar. That turned out not to be what I was looking for and sold it to buy my friends Colt 6520.
That was a sweet rifle...... But after a while the A2 upper was not wanted. I thought about switching it to an A3/4 upper but it was a damn ban era big front takedown pin. Plus the lightweight barrel made high volume distance shooting hard because it would string up and left when the barrel warmed up.
I wanted a do it all carbine that had a flat top but still had good irons. I ended up with a Noveske N4 light middy. I have since added a Troy drop in rail and the necessities like a sling and light. I recently added a Magpul shorty grip out front to help with their split front grip that I have switched to and added rail covers to make it more comfortable to hold. Also have a YHM can on the way.
Im still trying to decide on an optic but that will be it.
So I guess Im a trial and error type guy. Im trying to change that because it takes a long time and is expensive.
Once I get another carbine (next one is a CQB weapon) I might turn the Noveske into a Recce style with a free float rail and a scope.
I've been a gun guy for decades with a lot of shooting experience with a variety of weapons. But I'm just a civilian, not LE or military, and my firearms needs are around home defense, vermin control on my property, and pleasure shooting. I typically always approach any buying decision by doing a considerable amount of research and consideration. I try to have my first choice be as good as it can be. And as a result, I rarely have buyer's remorse.
When I decided to get an AR I first spent time with a friend of mine who is in the Natl. Guard Security who has a lot of training with the weapon. I then read a lot about ARs in books and on forums. Several visits to gunshops followed where I handled a wide variety of ARs. Around that same time I posted a thread here asking for suggestions.
It's important to note that I am not in the military, nor LE, nor likely to have to use the AR in heavy/very hard use, combat situations. For me, this is simply another home defense firearm option, a gun for training with, and pleasure shooting.
As I learned more about the various gas system lengths, hand guards, sighting options, barrel lengths, and stock choices I spent a lot of time thinking about how I would use the gun and where. For me it wasn't a question of trying to find the lowest cost AR, it was about buying quality and keeping it simple. Years of 1911 use taught me that all the possible bells and whistles are not necessarily needed nor desired.
I knew from holding various AR models that I wanted a good cheek weld (SOPMOD felt great to me) and being tall with longish arms, I knew I needed some length in the set-up to fit comfortably. A longer forearm felt a lot better to me than a short one. And, the longer hand guard allows ifor a longer sight radius as well.
I like to keep things simple, so I knew I didn't want rails all over the forearm with devices hanging everywhere, just a top rail and the ability to add another piece of rail when and if I decided I needed it. For this, the VTAC 11" forearm felt good and was light weight and didn't have excessive rail area... and I could swap out the 11" version for the 13" version, if I decided I wanted even more out front real estate. But not wanting excessive weight, I decided the 11" was a good length to start with. It was also much less costly than the quad rail options. The VTAC allows a longer sighting radius than a carbine system with FSB, which was an added plus in my view. So for me, the 11" VTAC was an ideal choice. I also wanted to start with just iron sights to keep it simple.
After weeks of reading, thinking, studying, handling various models in gunshops, and considering the options that people had recommended, I finally reached a point where I was very comfortable making a decision for my first (and I knew there would be others) AR. I decided to stick with good quality and keep it simple. Iron sights would be fine for a while until I could come to a well-educated decision on anything optical.
Rob, you yourself pointed me to what I ultimately landed on, a BCM 16" LW middy. I decided on the flat-top with lo-pro middy gas system because it affords a variety of easy change options for hand guard choices and by most accounts is an appropriate length gas system for a 16" barrel... and it allows a full free floated barrel. I also liked the possibility that a mid length gas system might be a little easier on the gun and possibly a tad less recoil than a carbine system. I opted for the VTAC handguard for the reasons I mentioned above (fit, simplicity, not too costly, long sighting radius). And Troy folding iron sights because I could easily move them to another upper, if I desired, and they afforded great versatility for future optics choices. I didn't want a permanent FSB because I wanted more easy versatility for possible future changes. I selected the ACS stock because the cheek weld felt right to me. And the Hogue grip because it felt good to me as well. I also realized that these items are quick and easy to switch around, if need be, so I didn't agonize over those decisions too much. I got a second BCM upper and an LMT lower with SOPMOD and Ergo grip as well.
I don't have extensive trigger time with the gun, but I've been shooting it every few days for a couple of weeks and so far, anyway, I'm really happy with the choices. Was it perfect? Doubtful, as NO choice is THE perfect choice. But it's a versatile, well-made AR that I think will serve me well in training and in HD. And no doubt, there will be more ARs in my future, so I can adjust and tweak along the way to meet my needs.
I also added a BCM middy 14.5 with welded BC1.5, which I have enjoyed shooting as well. Fortunately, I am able to afford to have several ARs to explore and learn with. And I've learned with guns that if you buy top quality to begin with, at a good price, it's rarely difficult to get most of (sometimes all of, or better!) one's money back out of a firearm if you decide to sell or change up your kit.
This forum (along with books, DVDs, other forums, etc.) has been a wonderful resource to me for getting educated on many aspects of the AR and no doubt will continue to serve that role. Before choosing any other gear/accessories, I will of course spend time researching them here and elsewhere before making a choice.
I haven't owned an AR for very long--about 18 months--but I have learned a lot in that time, in large part due to the knowledge threads on M4Carbine. A big thing the world of ARs has changed is my views on ergonomics with guns. I had only ever shot a few rifles and pistols and did rather well with them, and figured people who couldn't do well with them were just bad shots. Since playing with different configurations--especially with grips and stocks--on the same gun, I have noted how much of a difference a grip or stock that fits you better can improve or hinder my shooting. This seems painfully obvious now, but before I just thought a gun is a gun and while some fit better than others it doesn't matter.
When I bought my first AR-15 I didn't know much about them. I tried doing some research, but it's difficult to tell who's an expert, who's justifying their crappy purchase, and who works for the company that built the gun they're reviewing on the Internet. I also find gun magazines wholly unhelpful as 100% of products they review come across as perfect in every way.
I still have my first AR-15, a Stag. For the past 3 months or so I have been using it primarily as a test bed for different grips, slings, etc. This has allowed me to make much better decisions on ergonomics related gear--it's just been a bit expensive. I've also recently had the epiphany that doing drills really sucks with a heavy gun and recently built a somewhat lightweight gun which has had me practicing more.
The main thing, though, has been getting into the mindset that guns are tools first and foremost. If it isn't going to make me or my gun faster, more accurate, more reliable, or more suitable to the intended environment then I'll pass!
ejeffreyhorn
11-04-10, 15:31
Great topic for a thread.
I've been an AR shooter for 3 years now and have taken a route similar to many here.
Like Rob, I research the heck out of any purchase. This was probably what kept me from getting a tier-2 gun as my first AR. My first gun was a “recon” style franken-gun with all the top of the line stuff – Billet Upper and Lower, Noveske MedCon barrel, Timney 2.5lb trigger, 1-4x optic, 12” Larue rail, etc. Man, it looked good in the pictures.
But then I shot it...It was 11+lbs with a loaded mag. It was muzzle heavy. And it was not what I needed for a HD rifle.
So I am now back to the basics both for the gun and any other support equipment I carry.
Currently, my criteria for any piece of gear is that it must:
Be Functional within the context of what I need for my HD/SHTF purposes. I try to ensure that “the mission drives the gear.” so I have a sling, a light and a red dot optic. After that there is not much else I need.
OR
Add significant enhanced capability or ease of use while running the gun
AND
Be Reliable – I try to look for gear that has proven itself to be rugged over time. I use AARs and other feedback from this forum and others to make those evaluations. If something comes along and proves to be more reliable for the core functions I need it to, I'll give it try.
Then 3 other criteria are applied in no specific order
1) Weight – All things being equal, can I solve this problem with a lighter piece of gear?
2) Cost – It the gear priced reasonably for what it is? Is it a good value? Would I be better off spending this money on ammo/training? Can I solve this problem for less money?
3) Overall integration on the weapon – Does the gear affect weapon balance or maneuverability?
Applying that criteria has led me to
A BCM carbine with
a MOE Handguard instead of rails
a VCAS sling
An Aimpoint Micro T-1 in a Larue Mount (Would get a H-1 if buying again)
and a Surefire G2 light in a VTAC mount
The non-essential “extras” I have on my gun are an ambi safety selector and a BAD Lever. I think the ambi safety adds to ease in running the gun as I like to use my index finger to put the gun on safe. The jury is out for me on the BAD lever.
I drag my weapons through the Brownells catalog with a crap magnet.
Moose-Knuckle
11-04-10, 15:43
This is how I found M4C.com and why I became a member. I really don't buy into the hype from places like TOS or the gun rags. I firmly belive in the KISS principle. With that said when people like Larry Vickers speak I shut up and take note. I will never have the experiance of someone like him so I can save myself a lot of time, money, and frustration in learning from subject matter experts like him on everything from technique to product selection.
Like many other guy's here money is tight, the economy has been in the port-a-shitter for a while now so I have to make my money go further. So I can't waist my money on gucci gear or the latest greatest flavor of the month. Cost is a big part of product selection to me. It is a balancing act between cost and quality. I will always choose quality (reliability) over cheap so I scour the internet for items on sale and that's when I buy usually.
Failure2Stop
11-04-10, 16:54
By having significant experience on a wide variety of weapons and having clearly formed preferences in regard to ergonomics and performance along with known data points of performance and the willingness to beat a piece of gear I bought into a mangled piece of garbage. That which works and survives gets added to the fighting gun.
BTW- there isn't much on it.
Wow great thread Rob. My own odyssey started over 25 years ago with a Bushmaster A-2. I was content with that one for about 5 years and then bought a Colt for work. The first 2 accessories I put on were an Armeson OEG and a worthless little light. They were the best then available.
Over the last 10 years or so I've ran the gamut for all things AR. 3 point slings to singles to quick adjust 2 points. Aimpoints M-2's to Acogs to Nightforces to T-1s.
For the last 6-8 years I've closely followed the evolution of accessories to the point that I now know what I need and what I don't. Carrying one everyday for the last 15 years and a year in Iraq really opened my eyes to what was an improvement vs. a worthless doodad. I have been guilty of trying many parts and selling or discarding them. I'm fortunate to be in a position where it's not about the money anymore, within reason. Parts that performed poorly for me have been replaced by parts that did. For instance as a left hander I tried every available left handed mag release. Most were good products but didn't help me until the recently released Troys came out. That and the holy grail for lefties, the KAC SR-15 E-3.
In the end I will try a lot of different accessories but only keep the ones that have value to me. Any of my AR's will work fine for self defense so nowadays I'll try out items that meet a perceived need to improve my platforms or fit a niche type AR I'm building.
The final call for me is does it keep it interesting? Is it fun? To be fun it has to be top quality. If you have fun with the system you will get more out of your training. I flat out enjoy shooting the AR's. If that enjoyment ever ceases I'll sell of most of them and just keep around 1 or 2 for the real world need, should that ever arise.
The_Hammer_Man
11-04-10, 17:14
By having significant experience on a wide variety of weapons and having clearly formed preferences in regard to ergonomics and performance along with known data points of performance and the willingness to beat a piece of gear I bought into a mangled piece of garbage. That which works and survives gets added to the fighting gun.
BTW- there isn't much on it.
Grin,,, I think that this is where most of us started with our rifles....
then.. over time.. we started removing all those nifty gotahaveit doodads we put on our weapons till we paired them down to the basic essentials.
Like yourself.. my criteria is: Will it stand up to the crap I put my rifle through? Sometimes the answers yes.. sometimes it's maybe.
Currently my SHTF carbine is about as basic as it gets...
Mega billet upper
16" M4profile SS barrel ,1:8 twist, wylde chamber.PWS fsc 556 brake
12"Midwest SS free float tube
Samson polymer flip up sights
Seekins Precision billet lower
w/ DD LPK
Timney 3lb trigger
LMT ambi selector
Magpul UBR stock
Streamlight TLR-1 light at 12o'clock in front of my front flipsight
EXPS-2-2 (because i wear glasses and the dot in an AP "stars" up on me)
VTAC padded two point sling (cuz I'm an old timer and I've never gotten used to single point slings)
It's not an uber anything and I get kidded about it by the "tacti-kids" sometimes. Which is fine... they'll learn :)
Metallicus
11-04-10, 18:45
I'm reminded of paintball. I used to compete on a state level when I was younger the correlations between shooting paint and copper rounds are strikingly similar. I started out with a cheap marker (only noobs call them guns) with stock parts and used it for a long time until I realized I could out run the bolt, I could shoot faster then it cycled. Then I upgraded to a faster smoother cycling marker with a shorter faster resetting trigger. Then I realized I could outrun the hopper (like a magazine, feeds paint balls into the marker) So I bought an electronic one. Eventually I had over 600 dollars invested in my gear, which was, and still is a hefty sum for a minor especially, saved all my birthday money and worked all summer to afford it.
But what always annoyed me was to see some kid who was maybe 15 with a 1000 dollar marker and matching gear, with electronic triggers that they "needed" even though it was their first marker. I get this feeling a lot at the shooting range too...
I ran my relatively simple set up and was getting sponsored to play, never outran that set up, never needed an upgrade.
A lot of the time upgrades just mean more money, not performance.
So to make a long story short I usually research exhaustively and buy what makes sense to me and my skill level. If you don't see why something is necessary don't buy it. Its easy to be on the inter webs and read magazines that convince you that you NEED a Ferrari when you have your learners permit.
I say as a word of warning, just be truthful with that you Want and what you Need, you will save a lot of money.
And if you can afford everything you've ever wanted then you're prolly out driving some super car with more guns then the Winchester museum and in that case, I hate you.
CaptainDooley
11-04-10, 19:56
I have mostly only added something to my rifles when I determine I need something - mostly because I don't have a lot of spare income right now and I can't afford to waste money when there's other things I could be doing with it. So, when I originally bought an AR (BCM M4-style carbine upper with a EA lower I built up at home) I bought all Magpul MOE furniture because it cost basically the same as the standard furniture, but looked better (in my opinion). Other than that I ran only a light (a G2 I already owned in the VTAC mount) and a 2 pt Boonie Packer sling that I set up with MASH hooks and an ASAP (to run as a 2 or 1 pt sling) after poking around here for sling ideas. I didn't have the money for an Aimpoint and merely ran an MBUS rear sight on it.
When I traded an AK to get my wife a Colt 6920 I basically left it bone stock as she just shoots it at the range. I did eventually sell her carry handle and buy a Troy fixed rear for my rifle, moving the MBUS to her gun.
I took a class and figured out I wanted a LW barrel if I was going to do a lot of this and decided I wanted to try a middy while I was at it, so I sold off the BCM upper and bought another BCM upper. While I was doing that I bought an AFG because I liked the theory behind it and I thought it might be useful in future training and mounted it to the handguards. I also tracked down an old DD sling loop and mounted that on the top rear of the handguards to change where my sling attaches.
I just took a class with the rifle as it stands currently and I am very satisfied with the way it runs. However this class was much more intensive (2 days versus a 4 hour primer) and I know now that I NEED an ambi mag release and selector as a lefty. Those are the next things that HAVE to go on the rifle. I do want to put a set of MOE middy handguards on it, I find them more comfortable and I think I will set my wife's gun up with a light and sling when I do, because it never hurts to have a back up in the house, but those are things that can wait.
I'd still love to have an Aimpoint - I definitely see the advantages, so I'm socking pennies away as we have time. Every time I get close, something blows up and we wind up spending it on something else - but I'll get there. I really wanted rails when I first got my rifle, because it seemed like everyone had them. I'm glad I didn't waste the time and money - I really don't need them for what I do. Maybe the Troy/VTAC extreme tubes are something I'll look into in the future, but when compared to $30 MOEs... I still don't really need to spend the money...
Anyway, that's my ramble to say that because of this site and posts by people like Rob, I've not wasted too much money on my gun at any point because I've tried to actually figure out what I need before I buy it. Thanks guys!
Excellent thread. There's nothing I can really add to it since I'm currently in the state of choosing the proper gear for my gun.
I notice that the 1x4 optic is mentioned a few times in this thread. I was wondering if most of you who have tried it feel that it is something that, while it sounds good on paper, doesn't quite meet your expectations in the real world.
The reason I ask is because I'm very close to pulling the trigger on a TR24 and have been teetering between it and an aimpoint. I'm not building my AR for any particular niche, just a general purpose carbine.
Sorry for the thread hijack.
running the gun is the only way to really know. I started out with a basic simple carbine and added what I thought it needed, based on discussions, opinions, research, etc... then I took a class with the gun and I find some of it works, and some don't.
but I don't think it's absolutely essential for someone to start with the most simple thing if their budget will allow them to get some well considered upgrades. just as long as they actually USE the gun and find out what works for them, and what doesn't, and have the courage to don't fall in love with something just because it looks cool.
playing devil's advocate - I'm glad I started out with a cheap franken gun rather than take some of the well meaning advice to "just get a 6920". after several thousand rounds through a few different rifles, I find I don't like the carbine gas system and all my later purchases were midlengths.
If I had gone with a 6920, rather than taking an honest assessment of my needs and moving on, I might have felt compelled (based on the high regard it is held in by other people) to make it work somehow.
my cheap upper has been cannibalized and is in the process of becoming an SPR. as a donor upper, it has been perfect and I don't think I'll have lost a penny when it's all over. I can assure you, if I started with a 6920, it would still be in its original configuration and I'd be wondering what's wrong with ME, and what it is that I don't get about it...
Excellent thread. There's nothing I can really add to it since I'm currently in the state of choosing the proper gear for my gun.
I notice that the 1x4 optic is mentioned a few times in this thread. I was wondering if most of you who have tried it feel that it is something that, while it sounds good on paper, doesn't quite meet your expectations in the real world.
The reason I ask is because I'm very close to pulling the trigger on a TR24 and have been teetering between it and an aimpoint. I'm not building my AR for any particular niche, just a general purpose carbine.
Sorry for the thread hijack.
refer to the the M4C standard answer - mission drives the gear. that is, first figure out what you want the gun to do, and then get that which solves that problem.
a 1-4 scope is not a long range scope. and it is not a red dot sight. it is a compromise. I have a rifle set up with a 1-4, but it is not what sits behind the door for a bump-in-the-night.
could I use it for that if that's all I had? yeah, I guess... but I have a midlength with 9" rail, pinned fixed FSB with a DD fixed rear sight, a white light, and an Aimpoint for that. and I got this before I got the other.
R3V3LATIONS
11-04-10, 21:51
I would stick with the aimpoint. personal preference if I was (which I choose not to) run an optic. Im a carry handle kind of guy...no batteries, easy to grab, holds zero and intuitive as all hell to use.
That being said, my rifle selection process started about a year and a half ago. I started with a google search, got directed here, verified what was being said here with some reputable local armorers in my area, came back here and looked at who to listen to. I then decided what I would use a rifle for and prioritized what would need to be added/removed/left alone on it for my purposes (LE, HD, SHTF). About 8 months to a year later I bought a MP15 ORC (becuase I got an unbelllievable deal) beat the hell out of it and am proud to say that it out-does my government funded work rifle, which shall remain unnamed.
BTW Rob this is where I thank you for "the chart"...that was a colossal help and awesome resource!
Black Jeep
11-05-10, 21:37
I have other interests beyond AR's and shooting. While I enjoy both, I'm no where near as hardcore as others here. Truth be told, I'm just a good ol' boy who likes to shoot. My other interests, namely my harley, take up my time and money.
When I do get to make a purchase for my AR it's usually magazines and ammo. That is not to say I wouldn't like to make other purchases for the rifle. I look at the AR picture thread and drool, but I cannot justify half of the cost of some of those guns. When I do buy something for it I don't need the best, lightest, fastest, coolest, gear. I'm not high speed by any stretch of the imagination. Nor do I fancy myself as any kind of operator. I also realize that the likelihood of me using my AR in a real world hostile scenario would be slim. I do not live in an area where I would need to defend my home in a disaster type situation (ie. Katrina, LA riots, etc.).
Typically, I go with reliable companies, but I'm quite happy with their mid-tier products. Buying American is also a HUGE consideration. So is buying local. I know some of the folks on here run businesses and I wouldn't mind patronizing them, but I prefer to shop at reliable local businesses first. Face to face is still pretty important to me. I'll poke around on the net, and here to see what folks say about whatever has my fancy. I'll kick tires, so to speak, at the store to learn about the item and the store's friendliness towards customers. If both are amenable to me, I'll buy. I tend to be a pretty loyal customer, so if a business earns my trust I don't mind paying a bit more in order to have that kind of a relationship with the company.
When starting out, I made the mistake early on of falling victim to my own ego and the "I'm me, I'm different, I know what I like" mentality. I researched the hell out of the best guns, parts, and pieces and built myself a gun that was really impressive by the standards of the day and got many kudos on the forum where I posted pictures of it. In retrospect and in truth this was really my only goal so I patted myself on the back. But also, in truth, the gun sucked on the range for my needs. It took many, many years for me to undo what I had done both on the gun and in my own mind, and it took me spending a year with a basic AK with a light, RDS, and sling to really understand how badly I had ****ed up, and all the time and money I had wasted going about things that way.
Rob... It sounds like you selected that AR for all the wrong reasons. I'm curious as to what it was about the gun or its set-up that caused you so many problems and why it took you years to fix things? Sharing the specifics may help newbies who might be inclined to buy an AR with the same mind set you had when you bought yours.
Black Wrench
11-06-10, 03:44
You live and you learn. Oh well. Hopefully you learned from your mistakes and won"t make the same mistake twice. good luck..
but I don't think it's absolutely essential for someone to start with the most simple thing if their budget will allow them to get some well considered upgrades. just as long as they actually USE the gun and find out what works for them, and what doesn't, and have the courage to don't fall in love with something just because it looks cool.
I would like to agree with you in theory, but in practice it never works out this way. Bear in mind I'm basing my conclusions off of 6 years of running carbine matches, 3 years of running carbine drills, and years of observing other shooters at courses I've attended. This is by no means the equal of a professional fulltime instructor but it does give me more exposure to a wider range of shooters than perhaps some others may have.
My biggest objection, and the thing that never plays out the way it should, is the effective use of funds. Virtually every single time I've advised a shooter to go take a professional course they have replied with "I can't afford it". Without fail they are standing there with a carbine that has the price of a class bolted to it in the way of accessories that they aren't utilizing properly because they don't know what they don't know. They typically have the cost of the ammo, travel, lodging rusting away in their safe in the way of multiple rifles they haven't fired in years.
Secondary is exactly what you hit on, which is "married to the gear". This may even be a bigger issue than the budget issue. I will watch the same shooter show up over and over again with the same gear that isn't working out for them. It may be the gun itself, it may be a cheap accessory mounted to it, it may be a crap load carriage vest, it may be a less-than-ideal holster location dictated by bad load carriage decisions, or it may be something else entirely or a combination thereof. Over and over again I ask them "how's that xyz working out for you?" and over and over again they reply "not so goodd." But there they are three weeks later with the same crap! Dear God man, you just acknowledged that what you came to the range with is not working for you, yet you showed back up with the same problem gear again? If I had a nickle for every time one of these jokers told me "but it gets good reviews on the internut..."
If someone truly has the funding to buy the latest and greatest AND get to a class with the gear to test it out then more power to 'em. These people are rarer than hen's teeth in my experience. Similarly, if they are only interested in general ownership and plinking, having something that looks cool, tinkering and playing with gear, etc. then there is NOTHING wrong with that, it's just not my bag and very few of these guys seem willing to admit that this is their end goal. I know I wasn't when I fell in that group, and kind of like being a junkie it took rehab (in the form of classes, and this forum) to not only see that I had a problem but admit to it and get "clean and sober" as well.
Rob... It sounds like you selected that AR for all the wrong reasons. I'm curious as to what it was about the gun or its set-up that caused you so many problems and why it took you years to fix things? Sharing the specifics may help newbies who might be inclined to buy an AR with the same mind set you had when you bought yours.
I may address the specifics here eventually, but for the purposes of this thread I think it's counter-productive. I think it will result in some folks, especially those that made their decisions from a similar position of ignorance that I did, sniping and monday-morning-quarterbacking rather than learn from the larger concept. I think that if I say what rail system it was and why I didn't like it, someone's just going to think, or say, "oh, well I bought a different rail so I don't have that problem. If I say what stock it was someone ese will say "oh, I bought a different stock, so I don't have that problem", etc. Although nobody could have told me I was wrong at the time, so in some ways the point of this thread is probably lost on those with my same affliction. :sarcastic:
I can tell you that the parts and pieces were, by all accounts, top of the line of the day, and most would still be considered so today. The issue was not one of quality at all. Nothing failed, nothing broke, nothing exploded, there were no reliability issues, etc. I think maybe some reading this are getting that impression and it is not the case. It was simply a matter of the parts, and more specifically the combination of parts, being completely wrong for me and my application(s). It's not about the specific parts, it's about the lessons learned jumping into the deep end of the pool and choosing parts with absolutely no frame of reference for them.
jklaughrey
11-06-10, 08:41
I wait till Rob S tells me what to buy. All kidding aside, clear concise goals will drive educated intelligent purchases.
Rmplstlskn
11-06-10, 09:46
As a recreational shooter who also places high priority on defensive purposes and having the RIGHT TOOL for the job, my walk through Oz was similar to many here. But rather what looked cool, I was swayed by what others I respected were using. I now know that they too were influenced by WHAT WAS THOUGHT TO BE BEST... which often in hindsight was NOT the best, most reliable solution. We can all put together a LONG LIST of things that were once the bomb and are now seen as not ideal, thanks to TWOT and lessons learned from these wars and conflicts.
I have now come full circle to LIGHTWEIGHT and KIFS (Keep It Functional, Stupid)...
This new trend is not the best news for manufacturers of GUN STUFF, but it is good news for manufacturers of QUALITY WEAPONS, the now BASE LEVEL start to any weapon system. (I did not mention the CHART...but just did)
Now my struggle is less on what stuff I need for my carbine/pistol/battle rifle/howitzer (well, maybe not a howitzer...), rather my struggle is the HUGE VARIETY of "web/molle gear." How to carry what you need to SURVIVE a confrontation is more of a nightmare than what widget would solve problem x... And the only way to find out what works FOR YOU is to buy and try, often then leading to sell, then buy and try again, then repeat...
I have gotten so frustrated with not having enough $$$ to try every option out there, and what molle gear I have not fully meeting my "perceived, still new to this battle-rattle, needs" at this time, that I just bought an old Singer 66 sewing machine (old, warhorse of a machine) on ebay to do my OWN MODS to my molle gear... (My Grandfather, a skilled tailor from Sweden, long ago passed away, would be PROUD!)
So that is where I am... Stuck on molle gear and how to best work with my physique and possible scenarios...
Rmpl
I think there are two distinctly different situations that could be discussed in context of this thread.
First scenario is a purchase of first-ever weapon - be it AR, handgun etc.
Second - additional modifications, i.e. rails, accessories etc, after you one already has bear minimum (rifle that those things go onto).
"Highest-quality most basic setup" for a first step is a most sound advice, but, as Rob mentioned, it often doesn't work as people can't contain themselves to basic setups. The only way to minimize potential future financial losses is to use external expertise, since at that point the buyer doesn't have his own. There is still a risk, of course, but the chances that you won't say "what the hell I was thinking" are better. This is what I did, and it worked out for me. I went with a custom builder whose posts, expertise and feedback I found most compelling. I asked for best all-around set-up. In return I received a lightweight profile high-quality midlength 16 inch barrel with lightest gas block out there, quad rail just long enough to work, high quality BCG,Troy sights, straight upper receiver etc.
This was 2006. That rifle is still a rifle I judge others against, and as one can see, the setup spec'ed by an expert almost 5 years ago is what almost everybody recommends now. Lack of outrageous features, like 13 inch rails on 16 inch barrels etc., made it almost impossible to fail. High upfront costs paid for themselves because I never needed to change anything. More so, my other ARs are built around the same principles. However, way before "other ARs" happened, that rifle setup was validated by me taking classes with a reputable instructor.
The second step - accessorizing - isn't much different from the first. The initial purchase (or not purchase) decision is influenced by an external expertise, preferably in context of a training under reputable entity. Independent research, playing with guns of fellow students, or examining such gadgets in shops and gun shows help somewhat. However, since most widgets are intended to be performance-enhancing, it becomes my responsibility to measure own performance to see if gadgets made a lick of difference.
Secondary is exactly what you hit on, which is "married to the gear". This may even be a bigger issue than the budget issue. I will watch the same shooter show up over and over again with the same gear that isn't working out for them. It may be the gun itself, it may be a cheap accessory mounted to it, it may be a crap load carriage vest, it may be a less-than-ideal holster location dictated by bad load carriage decisions, or it may be something else entirely or a combination thereof. Over and over again I ask them "how's that xyz working out for you?" and over and over again they reply "not so goodd." But there they are three weeks later with the same crap! Dear God man, you just acknowledged that what you came to the range with is not working for you, yet you showed back up with the same problem gear again? If I had a nickle for every time one of these jokers told me "but it gets good reviews on the internut..."
If someone truly has the funding to buy the latest and greatest AND get to a class with the gear to test it out then more power to 'em. These people are rarer than hen's teeth in my experience. Similarly, if they are only interested in general ownership and plinking, having something that looks cool, tinkering and playing with gear, etc. then there is NOTHING wrong with that, it's just not my bag and very few of these guys seem willing to admit that this is their end goal. I know I wasn't when I fell in that group, and kind of like being a junkie it took rehab (in the form of classes, and this forum) to not only see that I had a problem but admit to it and get "clean and sober" as well.
Some of this behavior might be dictated by funds though. Some of these people may not financially be able to replace their xyz gear that isn't working out for them, and thus they are determined to make it work.
Not everybody is willing to shell out more money on a whim that something might work better for them. They also may be the kind of person that no matter what is never willing to sell something!
I would like to agree with you in theory, but in practice it never works out this way. Bear in mind I'm basing my conclusions off of 6 years of running carbine matches, 3 years of running carbine drills, and years of observing other shooters at courses I've attended. This is by no means the equal of a professional fulltime instructor but it does give me more exposure to a wider range of shooters than perhaps some others may have.
My biggest objection, and the thing that never plays out the way it should, is the effective use of funds. Virtually every single time I've advised a shooter to go take a professional course they have replied with "I can't afford it". Without fail they are standing there with a carbine that has the price of a class bolted to it in the way of accessories that they aren't utilizing properly because they don't know what they don't know. They typically have the cost of the ammo, travel, lodging rusting away in their safe in the way of multiple rifles they haven't fired in years.
Secondary is exactly what you hit on, which is "married to the gear". This may even be a bigger issue than the budget issue. I will watch the same shooter show up over and over again with the same gear that isn't working out for them. It may be the gun itself, it may be a cheap accessory mounted to it, it may be a crap load carriage vest, it may be a less-than-ideal holster location dictated by bad load carriage decisions, or it may be something else entirely or a combination thereof. Over and over again I ask them "how's that xyz working out for you?" and over and over again they reply "not so goodd." But there they are three weeks later with the same crap! Dear God man, you just acknowledged that what you came to the range with is not working for you, yet you showed back up with the same problem gear again? If I had a nickle for every time one of these jokers told me "but it gets good reviews on the internut..."
If someone truly has the funding to buy the latest and greatest AND get to a class with the gear to test it out then more power to 'em. These people are rarer than hen's teeth in my experience. Similarly, if they are only interested in general ownership and plinking, having something that looks cool, tinkering and playing with gear, etc. then there is NOTHING wrong with that, it's just not my bag and very few of these guys seem willing to admit that this is their end goal. I know I wasn't when I fell in that group, and kind of like being a junkie it took rehab (in the form of classes, and this forum) to not only see that I had a problem but admit to it and get "clean and sober" as well.
yeah, theoretically some things work but in practice, almost never. especially when there is the human element attached to it.
you just nailed it with your "married" comment, and it's a concept I already had in mind before I read it - a lot of these gun/gear choices are like being stuck in bad marriages.
and I gotta admit I'm probably as guilty of that as much as anyone. for a while, I was doing the Lego thing - swapping parts between this one and that one. now, I'm so resistant to changing a gun once I get it set up, that instead, I just get a new one and set it up differently. my wife calls it Barbies. for men...
but again... I NEVER make a change now unless, and until, I have tried it out and find it lacking in some way. that would just be like chasing my tail...
... So I'm curious. To those that have been doing the AR thing for awhile, how did you make your initial and early choices? How does that compare with how you do things now? and to those just starting out, how are you arriving at your configuraions and accessories with zero, or limited, trigger time on the platform? and, other than "it's my money I'll do what I want with it" how are you justifying to yourself the purchase of more than just the basic gun?
Hoo boy.
For context I'm not an operator of any type, just a shooting enthusiast that happens to really like the AR platform. I'm involved in emergency preparedness and response due to my volunteer work as a county EMA officer but that's not armed work, more of a mindset indicator.
I've had ARs on and off (mostly on) since my first SP-1 that I bought with my 18th birthday money back in 1980. These early guns were never modified in any way until I foolishly sold them in the early 90s after I got married and needed the money...- just before the AWB, dammit. Hindsight is 20/20, eh?
When I got back into ARs during the runup to Y2K I stayed simple with a single carbine - a new BM lower with an A1 stock and a surplus A1 upper with a BM 16" M4 profile barrel (the lightest barrel I could find at the time.) I also helped out several friends with similar builds since I enjoy wrenching these things together. After the AWB expired I changed out the BM's stock to a 6 position and the barrel to a BM Superlight and was happy. No accessories here, either.
I got back into building personal ARs hot and heavy about six years ago. My first new build was my 9mm range toy which has served as my test mule since that time. It was followed by a string of other mostly carbine builds.
I've found I prefer simpler and lighter builds. Yes, I have my 9mm with all the fun toys, a 20" bipod rifle and one 14.5" railed lightweight carbine, but everything else I have, am building or am planning now is much simpler - no rails, pencil barrels with fixed FSBs and a light, sling and an optic as the only accessories.
I have some pretty solid preferences in specific weapon components; I'm generally not one to run out and buy the flavor of the week and bolt it on a carbine. I've even been known to create replicas of new weapon control aids to see if they're an idea worth checking out - like when I taped a rubber doorstop to a handguard to determine if I wanted to try an AFG, or when I made a handstop out of modeling clay to see if Gear Sector handstops would work for me.
Some of the things I've kicked to the curb over the years, and why:
Hogue grips - I used to love the feel but finally realized they were just the wrong shape for me. Replaced universally by MOE PGs, but I have a Tango Down BattleGrip inbound to T&E on the 9mm.
6 position "M4" stocks - I hate the cheekweld. ACS is now my "normal" stock choice.
GI slings - I finally realized that they were useful for carry and not much else. Still learning here, but I've been happy with Boonie Packer 2P-TQAs with HK hooks, ASAPs and handguard loops.
Any handguard that is fat and round - when I first built my 9mm carbine it had a YHM quad. It was like gripping a tree trunk. Now I have no interest in a handguard unless it's skinny like an A2 corncob, a MOE or a TRX-E.
Right now I'm on the learning curve with support gear - I'm using a simple chest rig at the moment but I'm actively looking at and handling other options for first and second line gear. Budget is tight, so I'm being very careful with my analysis before I open my wallet.
Now that my gear is mostly pounded into shape my next big challenge is training. I took some medical steps last year to get myself in better shape (read "more likely to make it to age 55"); I'm just now coming into the zone of being able to properly train without bringing my own personal paramedic team. This will be the ultimate test of whether I've made the right gear choices.
M4C has been a great tool to help me focus on what really matters.
My choices are based on some combination of price, durability/reliability, functionality (whether it meets or will meet the 'need' I bought it for), and weight. I still have too few rounds through the AR platform to make a lot of personal judgments, but I pay attention to what others use, like, dislike and the context in which they use/like/dislike them. An unmentionable amount of dry-fire leads me to believe I have a pretty good idea in what I want ergonomically and has made me want a lighter-weight barrel.
-B
LowSpeed_HighDrag
11-06-10, 12:08
Alot of my decisions are based on what I learned in the Corps and am still learning. I learned that a VFG doesnt work for me, I learned 0-2 sights are a waste of time, I learned the standard A2 pistol grip is garbage. So, I began using a thumb over bore hold, using the peep sight, and had to cope with my pistol grip.
But, when it came to my personal rifle, I started using an AFG2, a Magpul MIAD grip, and a Kac Micro BUIS.
But I mainly research, research, and RESEARCH! I spend hours reading reviews, trolling forums, and picking the minds of experts.
My first build was going to be based off of an RRA platform, but after doing my research and not listening to what the monthly gun rag had to say, I purchased a BCM and never looked back.
Reputation is a HUGE part of my process. KAC, Aimpoint, BCM, Magpul, etc are names with flawless reputations, and therefore get my money.
Some of this behavior might be dictated by funds though. Some of these people may not financially be able to replace their xyz gear that isn't working out for them, and thus they are determined to make it work.
Anyone can sell a part that isn't working for them and put the proceeds into a box for training. This is especially true when many, many garbage parts or non-workable parts are littering the rifle. A POS RDS, stock, forend, and vert grip can add up quick towards tuition for training, and typically all of the stock parts are sitting in a box in the closet.
Anyone can sell a part that isn't working for them and put the proceeds into a box for training. This is especially true when many, many garbage parts or non-workable parts are littering the rifle. A POS RDS, stock, forend, and vert grip can add up quick towards tuition for training, and typically all of the stock parts are sitting in a box in the closet.
I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I am the opposite of the people we are talking about, but I have friends that insist on trying to make things they purchased work for them. I don't know what causes this problem, but I have witnessed it. I think it literally is born out of stubbornness!
By having significant experience on a wide variety of weapons and having clearly formed preferences in regard to ergonomics and performance along with known data points of performance and the willingness to beat a piece of gear I bought into a mangled piece of garbage. That which works and survives gets added to the fighting gun.
BTW- there isn't much on it.
wouldn't it have been easier to just say, "because I shoot people in the face for a living"...
:lol:
My gear choices were made based on my experience paired with the input of people who's backgrounds I respect. With myself in LE and having a father that served in special operations years ago, I am blessed with many skilled and experienced people to learn from.
I stick to quality items from respected companies that I feel improve an already solid platform, and tailor it for my needs. Nothing got put on my working rifle without a tour of duty on one of my range/play rifles.
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