View Full Version : Cheek Weld/Sight Alignment
I used the search feature and read as many threads as I could find, but did not find the answer I was looking for. Here's my situation:
At 25 yds (short range, I know) I can shoot my Glock 19 and my Bow (Archery) better than my AR. That's messed up. The issue boils down to Cheek weld and sight alignment (natural point of aim) Here are the questions:
1) How do you determine a consistent cheek weld (I've used NTCH for the last 3 years with almost no improvement) I think head position as it relates to cheek weld is the key here, but how do you determine it and repeat it?
2) How can you legitimately center the FSP in the Ghost ring? With my bow, the sight has a ring around the pins that gets centered in the peep, then put the pin on the target and release. With my Glock, The front sight goes in the notch and the height's match; squeeze the trigger and you're good. I don't see how you can repeat where the post goes inside that circle.
3) (in relation to head position) How far extended should the stock be?
Definition of purpose: Practial shooting scenarios, (Personal/Property defense, moving/shooting) not High-power Match style shooting.
Thank you for your input!
It sounds as if you know what the sight picture should look like on the AR system's sights?. I would hold that you should look at other issues that may be affecting your group size. Maybe link up with an accomplished shooter in your area and have him/her coach you through various positions. Do prone or benched first to rule out(or minimize) influences on the gun. Also check over the carbine to make sure there's no mechanical problems.
You mention "centering" the post, that will be dependant on the accuracy requirement of the shot you need to make. Your eye will do a great job of getting the post centered in the rear aperature. If you are at a longer range or need more accuracy, use the small one, low light or closer in, the large one. Up close body shots won't need a "perfect" picture, just a reference on the target.
I wouldn't get to wrapped up in the check weld, make sure it's consistent, whether it be ntch or comfortably on the stock and allowing a good body position without looking like a caveman ready to strike a wooly creature.
With the stock, I like to extend mine all of the way out I like this to assist with leverage of my strong arm controlling the gun
Last thing--High Power--that would help you understand the fundementals more than alot of other "disciplines" after all, it's all fundementals, just different body positions and equipment, etc.
Hope that helps.
Grumpy MSG
11-05-10, 17:55
Without seeing your rifle, and reading your questions, I am guessing you have a collapsable stock rifle. There are several things you can do to improve your shot group. Obviously the big three are practice, practice, practice. Other things that will help you:
You are trying to align 3 things at once, the rear sight, the front sight and the target. You should focus on the front sight, the rear sight should be a blurry circle around the front sight. The target should be blurry behind the front sight. It should be easy for your eye to align the top of the front post in center of the rear sight.
As for what length to put your stock at, I have seen people use them completely collapsed, completely extended and everywhere in between. I will give you this simple advise, the Army used to teach you to put your nose bumping the charging handle if you could or they put a piece of tape on the stock so that you had it the same distance every time, so just extend the stock to where it is comfortable and your nose just touches the charging handle. The recoil won't bother you. Understand it may change a notch or so if you switch from prone to standing, sitting or kneeling.
The other thing you haven't mentioned is the position you are firing from. A prone supported firing position or bench supported position will be much more stable than a standing kneeling or sitting unsupported position.
Without knowing what kind of range you shoot at, I would suggest you focus on shooting from the prone or seated at the bench. firing 5 shot groups at a zero target. evaluate the target, don't worry about adjusting the sights, fire another 5 at the same target. Do this until you get groups that are consistantly hitting in the same place. Once you have done that you have achieved a consistant sight alignment. Now adjust your sights so that your point of impact is where you want it. Fire another group or two to confirm your adjustments.
You will here a lot about the 8 steady hold factors or the 4 fundementals from prior service guys. Personally I think they are violet versus purple, they both cover the same things, one is just more detailed than the other. But I will list the four fundemental any way: Steady Position, Sight Alignment, Breathing and Trigger Squeeze. Master those and your shot group will tighten right up
Good luck and have fun practicing.
OP,
Regading you stock/cheek weld, here is what I have taught to many for basic marksmanship:
- Place the bottom of the stock high in the shoulder pocket, this will bring the top of the stock above your shoulder
- Place your chin on top of the stock. Then rotate your face straight down until the top of the stock is tight under your cheek bone and your eye is in line with the rear sight. The most common mistake I've seen with this is people lay their head on the side of the stock instead of doing it the way I've described. If you do it correctly, the stock will be tight under your cheek bone and when you shoot your face will actually help grip the weapon. If your head bounces off the stock during recoil, you are doing it wrong. This is why they call it cheek or stock weld, you cheek is "welded" to the stock.
- Your nose should be 1 to 2 finger widths from the charging handle. You can check this by placing the index and middle fingers of your support hand together (think boy scout salute) then placing them over the top of the stock between your nose and the charging handle. Essentially you are learning to attain the same eye relief whether it be NTCH or the method I described serves to provide consistency (you can compare this to using the same anchor point for your release hand when shooting your bow). Practice this until you can consistently establish your cheek weld/eye relief everytime then try it without using your fingers.
As Mark 5.56 said, it would be best if you paired up with a knowledgable shooter who could coach you through it. It's much more effective to do hands on than over the internet.
The fundamentals you must master are:
Grip - 4 points of contact (hands, cheek and shoulder)
Positon - stability/natural point of aim
Sight Alignment - front sight tip centered in the rear sight aperture
Sight Picture - Sight alignment placed over the target
Breath Control - you can use natural pause/half breath out/ forced pause
Trigger Control - smooth steady rearward pressure to the rear until the weapon fires. Don't make it fire, let it fire (mess this up and everything comes apart!)
Followthrough
There are more beyond these but this is a good starting point
Hope this helps.
Black Wrench
11-06-10, 03:52
Get a front sight post that has the full circle hood so you can match the rear and front consistently every time you shoot.
.
Answer to OP's #2:
I bought a high-dollar air rifle 25+ years ago that had a peep sight. I was getting OK groups but not what the gun was capable until an air rifle competition friend of mine told me to "just look through the peep and do not try to center up anything."
He said to try to put your face in the same position and just look through the peep. Your eye will naturally (subconciously) get in a position that will get the most light to your retina. This natural subconscious centering your eye does is far better than you can "manually" center and align things up. This is why an earlier post said to ignore the rear sight.
It takes some effort at first but once you get it down, it is by far the most accurate sight. Once I started doing this with my air rifle, my group went down to about a forth of what I was shooting. Works the same on an AR, and the small hole works pretty good.
.
RogerinTPA
11-06-10, 09:52
Before we can diagnose the issue, to the OP, which shooting position are you using?
Cheek weld is subjective and depends on the individual shooter. A lot of folks advocate NTC. It didn't work for me. It wasn't precise enough for me to determine that the FS was centered in the rear site aperture (0-200) as there was too much "air" in the sight picture. When I used to shoot competitively (match grade small and large bore rifles from state to Camp Perry), I used the brim of my hat to use as a constant measurement for my cheek weld and sight alignment.
Failure2Stop
11-06-10, 15:53
Get an Aimpoint.
Seriously.
Get an Aimpoint.
Seriously.
F2S,
Have your sworn off irons? :eek:
Failure2Stop
11-06-10, 16:32
F2S,
Have your sworn off irons? :eek:
Ha, no, but going to a quality RDS that has no restrictictions on eye relief or position behind the optic greatly simplifies the issue and shortens training time, doubly so if going at it alone.
I have and like RDSs and MRDSs, but nothing is easier than an Aimpoint with a battery life measured in years.
Before we can diagnose the issue, to the OP, which shooting position are you using?
Mostly standing modified Weaver stance. However, I've had consistent issues with repeatable groups even off sandbags (on the bench) trying to establish a zero. (At 50 yds) Group will be in one area, then change position to reload/change target, and the group is in a totally different place. I've been running with my stock basically on my "pec" on either the "0" or "1" position tucked as tight in as possible.
Sounds like I just need to dump the HSLD crap and learn how to shoot first. I'm reading Ed Mcgivern's book right now and he mentions people suggesting that learning target style shooting being a detractor from practical shooting is a load of bull. I'm thinking that you walk before you run and should learn how to achieve consistent hits first, then worry about speeding it up, minimizing your profile, moving, etc... Is this sound thought?
Sounds like I just need to dump the HSLD crap and learn how to shoot first.
yep. Find a basic marksmanship class and go.
Mike
Dude, I feel your pain. I thought I was crazy because I could shoot a pistol pretty good, sporting clays good, and notch sights on other rifles. I picked up an AR and was nowhere close to my target and very inconsistent.
This is by no means advice: but I sort of followed what f2s mentioned; I gave up for awhile and started using my aimpoint. When I was hitting what my dot was on, I went back to irons and for some unknown reason I started hitting with those.
I dont know if it was a confidence thing or just more correct trigger pull time with the aimpoint, but it worked out.
As mentioned, bottom line is the fundementals never change. Understanding them and delivering on target repeatable effective hits is what you need regardless if you compete in X discipline or are in a defensive scenario. Periodic review of zero and accuracy standards is a must to check for equipment and marksmanship issues. I know many have stated here the above and how some never get past being jocked up and blowing holes in paper inside of 10 yards.
BRASSF. I would say this every time I would slow fire in the Military
Sounds like I just need to dump the HSLD crap and learn how to shoot first.
Quite possibly. There's never ever anything wrong with starting at no-BS Square One, but whether you do that or not, at least get in front of an instructor who can see what you're doing and correct what needs it.
There's a very popular and smart instructor that regularly says something like "...too many people are worried about shooting under cars when they can't hit a 6" circle at any distance..."
Nothing wrong with taking marksmanship-centric courses. All of the best dynamic shoting is successful because you are applying what fundamentals may be applied, as best as they can be possibly applied, given any disparate situation or series of situations. To do that, you have to get firmly grounded in the fundamentals first, and it's hard to get grounded in them until they're properly introoduced.
Appleseed has some good instructors and runs a very good class: http://appleseedinfo.org/
Not particularly impressed with anything the NRA does at the basic level. Too interested in being as PC as possible and about liability, far less concerned with providing a decent skillset. That's not to say that it'd be worthless to check with the NRA about stuff in your area, just expect to get chided if you use the word "weapon" or "firearm" to describe your...let's face it, it's a damned weapon. Unless you want to be taught Barney-style, there's other options that are less likely to be as pedantic and preachy as NRA stuff.
Quite possibly. There's never ever anything wrong with starting at no-BS Square One, but whether you do that or not, at least get in front of an instructor who can see what you're doing and correct what needs it.
There's a very popular and smart instructor that regularly says something like "...too many people are worried about shooting under cars when they can't hit a 6" circle at any distance..."
Nothing wrong with taking marksmanship-centric courses. All of the best dynamic shoting is successful because you are applying what fundamentals may be applied, as best as they can be possibly applied, given any disparate situation or series of situations. To do that, you have to get firmly grounded in the fundamentals first, and it's hard to get grounded in them until they're properly introoduced.
Appleseed has some good instructors and runs a very good class: http://appleseedinfo.org/
Not particularly impressed with anything the NRA does at the basic level. Too interested in being as PC as possible and about liability, far less concerned with providing a decent skillset. That's not to say that it'd be worthless to check with the NRA about stuff in your area, just expect to get chided if you use the word "weapon" or "firearm" to describe your...let's face it, it's a damned weapon. Unless you want to be taught Barney-style, there's other options that are less likely to be as pedantic and preachy as NRA stuff.
Having taken an NRA course, I can say I was surprised about how worried they were about what you called your weapon. While this can make sense for things like airsoft and paintball, in an effort to keep clear of legislation that could limit them like they were a gun, we're talking about guns here--if it's not a weapon, what is? I was also disappointed with how focused they were on accuracy. They have people there who want training to defend their homes--being able to put 5 shots in a 2" ring at 100 yards isn't going to help you do that. Don't get me wrong you need to be able to be accurate, but for the kind of training most people there wanted, taking 5 seconds to perfectly line up and squeeze off a shot from a bench isn't going to get you there.
I've heard good things about Appleseed, but haven't been to one of them yet.
One just needs to bear in mind the difference between a marksmanship class and a gunfighting class, and be dead honest in their personal assments and goals. In this instance, a marksmanship class would seem in order, and is never a bad idea in and of itself.
Exclusively take one and not the other (from either side of the question), one isn't doing onesself any good. If it's a hole in your game, though.....
Can't even go as far as to say that an NRA class wouldn't be beneficial. It's just that the "lowest common denominator" those are aimed at is pretty low (one trip to the NRA HQ range in Fairfax, VA can show one why that is; it's perfectly understandable). Between that, the fact that they're more a Political Action Comittee than anything else (and one that pays lip-service to the tactical/self-defense practitioner), having too many instructors whose resume begins and ends with "NRA Instructor Qualified," and that they have very little room with which to deviate from the approved lesson-plan.
I kinda took this off the path. Sorry for the rambling; food for thought, only.
Somebody else brought it up: get a red-dot, take a marksmanship class with THAT, then try the irons later down the road. May help take the unfamiliar and relate it to something familiar. Hell, sometimes something as simple and counter-intuitive as going after a smaller POA than one would otherwise attempt may force a different level of concentration and produce different results.
This weekend I checked the zeros of 4 ARs on the 100yd line, a 10.5" with an EOTech, a 14.5" with an Aimpoint T1 a 16" with back up irons, and an 18" with a 14 power scope. What I found interesting is that a shot tighter groups with the back up irons than either of the RDS.
I'm not sure if it was the trigger difference or the barrel, as the carbine with the irons had a match barrel and trigger, but I was able to hold about 0.5-0.75" tighter with irons than either of the RDS.
Anyway this thread just made me think about it.
Additionally, all of my ARs have the exact same cheek weld with optics, and then the same cheek weld with BUIS. I think consistent cheek weld is very important.
Cam
Suwannee Tim
11-08-10, 16:04
I have read and heard that you will subconsciously center the post in the ring, it does not work for me, I consciously center the post in the ring. Your ring may be too large. Many AR sights have two apertures, try the smaller one. The red dot sight or scope is also a good idea. It will enable you to hone marksmanship skills other than sight alignment.
On top of a consistant cheek weld is trigger control. One drill I learned back in basic training was to take a dine and put it on the end of barrel before the muzzle brake. Practice squeezing the trigger until you can dry fire the weapon without the dime falling off. I still practice dry firing every now and then using that drill with my rifles.
Suwannee Tim
11-09-10, 05:27
On many rifles the cheek weld is necessarily a chin weld. The three most important factors of marksmanship are trigger control, trigger control and trigger control. Point is for most folks that are having a problem, trigger control is the issue.
On many rifles the cheek weld is necessarily a chin weld. The three most important factors of marksmanship are trigger control, trigger control and trigger control. Point is for most folks that are having a problem, trigger control is the issue.
Interesting...do you happen to have a pic or better description of that?
I've heard good things about Appleseed, but haven't been to one of them yet.
Appleseed is excellent. It's a great practice regardless of your skill level. Seriously... everybody should go to Appleseed.
My only advice if you go to an Appleseed is to ditch the optics and HSLD slings. Bring a rifle with standard peep sights and an old school GI web sling, mounted at 6 o'clock under the handguard.
Suwannee Tim
11-09-10, 13:09
On many rifles the cheek weld is necessarily a chin weld.
Interesting...do you happen to have a pic or better description of that?
With an M1A when I lay my cheek on the butt stock I am looking through the sights. With an AR, same head position, I am looking at the charging handle. So I raise my head. You put whatever part of your anatomy you need to, cheek, jaw, chin whatever.......well, maybe not the chin, but some piece of your head on the stock. It doesn't have to be your cheek. I used to think there was something special about the cheek weld, now I just weld whatever I need to to the stock.
With an M1A when I lay my cheek on the butt stock I am looking through the sights. With an AR, same head position, I am looking at the charging handle. So I raise my head. You put whatever part of your anatomy you need to, cheek, jaw, chin whatever.......well, maybe not the chin, but some piece of your head on the stock. It doesn't have to be your cheek. I used to think there was something special about the cheek weld, now I just weld whatever I need to to the stock.
There is something special about the cheek weld. Correctly performed on a standard M16/A2...etc, it will put your eye in line with the rear sight, cheek tight on top of the stock.
I have heard of using the chin, not because it is better but it may be necessary with optics that sit too high on the weapon such as a RDS mounted on top of an ACOG.
If I may ask, have you had any formal training?
Submariner
11-12-10, 09:30
Ha, no, but going to a quality RDS that has no restrictictions on eye relief or position behind the optic greatly simplifies the issue and shortens training time, doubly so if going at it alone.
Kimosabe, what do you mean, "doubly so if going at it alone?"
Grumpy MSG
11-13-10, 21:53
Mostly standing modified Weaver stance. However, I've had consistent issues with repeatable groups even off sandbags (on the bench) trying to establish a zero. (At 50 yds) Group will be in one area, then change position to reload/change target, and the group is in a totally different place. I've been running with my stock basically on my "pec" on either the "0" or "1" position tucked as tight in as possible.
Sounds like I just need to dump the HSLD crap and learn how to shoot first. I'm reading Ed Mcgivern's book right now and he mentions people suggesting that learning target style shooting being a detractor from practical shooting is a load of bull. I'm thinking that you walk before you run and should learn how to achieve consistent hits first, then worry about speeding it up, minimizing your profile, moving, etc... Is this sound thought?
One thing I didn't address in my first post was which rear sight apperature to use. you may have 2 holes that look very similar in size (an old A1 type sight) or one with a large and small hole (A2/M4). If you have the A1 type sight, if you flip it forward, there should be an L showing below the apperature. If you have the A2/M4 type of sight and flip it forward, you should see a 0-2. Since you are trying to zero at 50 yards I recommend using both sight types flipped back (small hole on an A2/M4). If it is another type of back-up sight mounted on the flat-top rail I can't advise you without seeing the setup. If there is a elevation wheel under the sight, crank it so that it is all the way down 8/3 on the fixed A2 handle or 6/3 on a removeable carrying handle.
You have the infamous "wandering shot group", it is usually an inconsistant sight picture issue. The best way to help with that is practice. Like I said earlier get a good stable supported position. Using a 3 to 5 round magazine fire a group. Change magazines fire again. Repeat this until your groups start impacting the same spot. You don't want to change the target or move your sights until they are starting to hit the same spot consistently. As for what a good sight picture looks like, look at the attached drawing. Please don't laugh too hard at my artwork, I am a functional illiterate when it comes to using Microsoft Paint. Just remember, focus on the front sight.
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=6548&d=1289706348
I had a Soldier who failed to qualify several times in Basic Combat Training. All I had to do, to fix his problem was have him shoot at the zero target until he was constantly hitting the same spot. It took him about 80-100 rounds before it started happening. Once he did that, it was easy from there.
Grumpy MSG,
The OP unfortunately never said what his grouping looked like. In my experience, a scattered shot group (or no group) is usually caused by:
1) Failure to focus on the front sight
2) Changing stock weld/eye relief between shots
3) Loose barrel - unusual, but I have seen it on several occasions when the instructor attempted to fire a shot group with the troops weapon and it still wouldn't group
You are absolutely right that until a good group can be attained repeatedly, it is useless to do anything else, you'll just be chasing holes all over the paper.
Like was said before, it is tuff to correct problems without watching them shoot.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.