The Ar Timney Trigger Saga

[Rusty_Shackleford]

I have been a big fan of Timney triggers for years and I use them every time I build a precision rifle. So it is with much regret and disgust that I am having to write this. In September of this year I built a Larue Stealth SPR and of course I ordered a Timney trigger for it from my favorite online vendor (PK Firearms). I received the Timney trigger from PKF on 09-24-10 and it looked like this;

http://i555.photobucket.com/albums/jj475/Cansler_Tactical/IMG_1338.jpg

http://i555.photobucket.com/albums/jj475/Cansler_Tactical/IMG_1334.jpg

So I call Paul at PKF and he has me send it back and he sends me another that looked even worse! It looked so bad that I didn’t either bother to take it out of the package, here it is;

http://i555.photobucket.com/albums/jj475/Cansler_Tactical/IMG_1383.jpg

http://i555.photobucket.com/albums/jj475/Cansler_Tactical/IMG_1380.jpg

So I call Paul back and after speaking with him I come to find that all of the hammers he has are like this and he pointed out that the triggers are different than the other ones I have ordered. Timney changed some things such as doing away with the hard engraving on the gold anodized housing for a cheaper laser engraving and they are now burning an engraving on the hammers with a laser. Now no one has confirmed too me that they have changed their plating process but I think that will be clear to you buy the end of this write up. I would also like to point out that this is in no way PKF's fault and Paul went above and beyond. Thanks Paul!

So I contact Timney and explain my problem and they said send it back and we will make it right. So I send them the 2nd trigger back and they ship me another one and it looked a little better but it didn’t look anything like the hammers on the triggers I have bought previously. So I contact their General Manager and start dealing directly with him. I asked him why the plating looks so bad he said "sometimes they look great and sometimes they don’t.” I explain the problem and the fact that I am out two return shipping fees and he reluctantly sends me a return shipping label and a new trigger group. I say reluctantly because he told me that his problem was that the issue I have is purely cosmetic and the function is not affected. I asked him if the function is not affected then why do you nickel plate them? He responded by asking me what my address was. So I decide to make a comparison photo for their GM to look at and here is a picture of it;

http://i555.photobucket.com/albums/jj475/Cansler_Tactical/TimneyPlatingExamples.jpg

I think the differences between them are quite clear. The most disturbing part of this revelation is they evidently use them no matter what they look like and they don’t seem to care either.

So I wait another week for it to arrive and it is no different, in fact I kept the one I had and sent the new one back since it was the worst of the two. I don’t have a picture of this one because my wife had the camera but you can probably imagine by now. So I contact their GM again and told him they aren’t getting any better and he says he will have hammer made especially for me but I will have to exchange the hammer out of the unit I already have. He then tells me this is the last time he will deal with this! I guess this is somehow my fault at this point.

Now I am waiting to see my 5th hammer which arrived yesterday and this is the last straw! Seven wasted weeks trying to resolve this and look at this sorry excuse for a nickel plated hammer they sent me!

http://i555.photobucket.com/albums/jj475/Cansler_Tactical/IMG_1749.jpg

http://i555.photobucket.com/albums/jj475/Cansler_Tactical/IMG_1748.jpg

I sent him an email asking for my money back. I will update this thread when I get a response. Just in case you have not seen what a Timney trigger is supposed to look like here are my two other ones I have;

http://i555.photobucket.com/albums/jj475/Cansler_Tactical/IMG_1406.jpg

http://i555.photobucket.com/albums/jj475/Cansler_Tactical/IMG_1392.jpg


I hope by writing this article I can save some of you from having to go through this BS. I have had a couple folks tell me I am being to picky but I don't expect to have to pay the same price for a product that has been downgraded.

Timney used to be the only game in town if you wanted a drop in trigger unit and there quality was second to none. Now that there are multiple manufactures making drop in modules I am guessing Timney lost some market share and some bean counter decided to cut corners to make up some lost revenue but they are dead wrong! Diminishing quality will cost them even more lost revenue and repeat customers like myself.

[Robb Jensen]

Other than looks did they work?

[ALCOAR]

Sorry to hear about that train wreck above....holy smokes that last hammer looks like garbage. I wonder if this is a chronic problem across their entire product line up since they make quite a few diff. drop in units for various other guns.

If you want to be treated like a million bucks than I might suggest switching to Geissele units in the future as they are honestly textbook for how you should treat your customers. I hear they make a pretty good trigger as well;)

[Rusty_Shackleford]

Other than looks did they work?

I didn't install any of them. I assumed they had a couple of bad hammers get through QC so I just sent it back but once I realized they were getting worse it became a matter of principle. All I wanted was the quality of plating that I have received in the past, nothing more and nothing less.......

[militarymoron]

honestly, why does it matter how the sides of the hammer look as long as the engagement surfaces are good and the trigger works as advertised? the sides of my KAC hammer looks just like your timney but it sure works well. geissele hammers have seams, marks etc on non-critical areas as well.

sometimes, manufacturers have to look at ways of reducing manufacturing costs in order to offer their products at the same price point, instead of increasing the price to reflect current costs of manufacturing. if it doesn't affect performance, and it's an internal part so cosmetics aren't an issue, that would be an acceptable place to reduce costs.
if a product was introduced 4 years ago, it may be more expensive to manufacture now that when it was first introduced. look at all the costs associated with making something - materials, labour etc. so, if they keep the price the same, they're essentially making less as time goes on.
i'm not saying that's what timney did - just pointing out a potential reason for what you're seeing.

[Rusty_Shackleford]

honestly, why does it matter how the sides of the hammer look as long as the engagement surfaces are good and the trigger works as advertised? the sides of my KAC hammer looks just like your timney but it sure works well.

sometimes, manufacturers have to look at ways of reducing manufacturing costs in order to offer their products at the same price point, instead of increasing the price to reflect current costs of manufacturing. if it doesn't affect performance, and it's an internal part so cosmetics aren't an issue, that would be an acceptable place to reduce costs.
if a product was introduced 4 years ago, it may be more expensive to manufacture now that when it was first introduced. look at all the costs associated with making something - materials, labour etc. so, if they keep the price the same, they're essentially making less as time goes on.
i'm not saying that's what timney did - just pointing out a potential reason for what you're seeing.I can agree with this rational but I would rather see a slight price increase rather than a quality decrease. If I didn't already have two of there triggers I would have probably not had any issues but I know what there hammers are supposed to look like and that is what bothers me so much.

[lethal dose]

Other than looks did they work?


honestly, why does it matter how the sides of the hammer look as long as the engagement surfaces are good and the trigger works as advertised? the sides of my KAC hammer looks just like your timney but it sure works well.

sometimes, manufacturers have to look at ways of reducing manufacturing costs in order to offer their products at the same price point, instead of increasing the price to reflect current costs of manufacturing. if it doesn't affect performance, and it's an internal part so cosmetics aren't an issue, that would be an acceptable place to reduce costs.
if a product was introduced 4 years ago, it may be more expensive to manufacture now that when it was first introduced. look at all the costs associated with making something - materials, labour etc. so, if they keep the price the same, they're essentially making less as time goes on.
i'm not saying that's what timney did - just pointing out a potential reason for what you're seeing.
I agree with both statements, here... I also understand the concern the op has. I, for one, am not concerned with overall cosmetics and appearance as long as function is nor affected. It does suck when manufacturers have to make cuts in certain areas to keep the price point the same but, as mm stated, as long as reliability isn't affected negatively... no biggie.

[ALCOAR]

honestly, why does it matter how the sides of the hammer look as long as the engagement surfaces are good and the trigger works as advertised? the sides of my KAC hammer looks just like your timney but it sure works well. geissele hammers have seams, marks etc on non-critical areas as well.

sometimes, manufacturers have to look at ways of reducing manufacturing costs in order to offer their products at the same price point, instead of increasing the price to reflect current costs of manufacturing. if it doesn't affect performance, and it's an internal part so cosmetics aren't an issue, that would be an acceptable place to reduce costs.
if a product was introduced 4 years ago, it may be more expensive to manufacture now that when it was first introduced. look at all the costs associated with making something - materials, labour etc. so, if they keep the price the same, they're essentially making less as time goes on.
i'm not saying that's what timney did - just pointing out a potential reason for what you're seeing.

I would have to respectfully disagree with a cpl. things....the last hammer sent to the OP indeed looked like KAC's to some degree however the actual engagement areas on the timney above are really pretty rough to my eye at least and not the case with my KAC units.

Also I believe that the actual finish on the current modeled G triggers is flawless.....not seeing any seams, marks or otherwise noticeable tool marks. I really have seen very few to perhaps no small part finished as nicely as the stuff from GA.
http://i54.tinypic.com/osdbhh.jpg

[militarymoron]

I would have to respectfully disagree with a cpl. things....the last hammer sent to the OP indeed looked like KAC's to some degree however the actual engagement areas on the timney above are really pretty rough to my eye at least and not the case with my KAC units.

no prob disagreeing - but again, the question would be 'how does it function?' regardless of engagement surfaces?

here's a pic of one of my geissele hammers - illlustrating an inconsequential 'seam-like mark' from the manufacturing process:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/militarymoron/geissele.jpg

here's a pic of the KAC:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/militarymoron/kachammer.jpg

"I can agree with this rational but I would rather see a slight price increase rather than a quality decrease."
i don't see if as a drop in quality because it's a cosmetic attribute that is hidden under normal use. given the price increase in so much stuff around us nowadays, i'd rather pay the same price and get the same function, if it means a slight sacrifice in an area that doesn't affect functioning nor external cosmetics.
it's just like the inside rear of a bolt carrier - i have an LMT one that looks so rough i'm wondering what tool they used to bore it out. looks terrible, but since it doesn't affect function, i didn't care.

anyways, we can agree to disagree on what matters to us, but i think it was harsh to imply that timney's overall quality is slipping or unacceptable because of a hidden cosmetic attribute.

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

With externally exposed products I see great cosmetics a s another check in the box before being sent out, but for internal function products, cosmetics are low on my list as long as it will function as advertised. Especially with a hammer that will eventually be beat to shit.

But, I do see where you are coming from. If a company has been charging the same amount for a good fit and finish, and then suddenly send a product out looking like crap, then where else are they not doing their job.

[Robb Jensen]

Colt 6920s and the like have some really hideous tool marks left on the upper and lower receivers externally. It doesn't effect function at all, but the 'fit and finish' critics hate it.

[Rusty_Shackleford]

The attention to detail and craftsmanship of there trigger units is what drew me to them and kept me coming back but take that away and it shakes my confidence in the quality. It's just not what I thought I was paying for.......:sad:

[pilotguyo540]

One problem is that the OP wants something that is no longer available. Something is getting lost between the GM and the OP, because logic says this whole thing is bordering on ridiculous. OP wants another hammer, and gets another hammer. Then wants another, and gets it. We could do this for a long time. Until Timney changes the process again, you are going to keep getting the same product. It is insane to expect otherwise.

Try it. You may like it. If not, send it back and move on. Getting angry does not do anyone any good.

[Rusty_Shackleford]

One problem is that the OP wants something that is no longer available. Something is getting lost between the GM and the OP, because logic says this whole thing is bordering on ridiculous. OP wants another hammer, and gets another hammer. Then wants another, and gets it. We could do this for a long time. Until Timney changes the process again, you are going to keep getting the same product. It is insane to expect otherwise.

Try it. You may like it. If not, send it back and move on. Getting angry does not do anyone any good.
I'm not angry at all just disappointed. This is just a way to let unsuspecting consumers know there is a change in what they may be expecting when they order a Timney trigger and it is not what there used too. As for the GM, he gave no indication that there was a change in manufacturing but rather a problem with the plating. His exact statement was "sometimes they look great and sometimes they don't"........

[mbogo]

I think for another $20, I'd buy the Geissele. The Timney may still work as well as ever, but based on the reluctance of their GM to satisfy the OP, I would not buy the Timney product.

mbogo

[ALCOAR]

While I agree with the sentiment that some have voiced about the trigger still functioning, I do not simply relegate it to the ole' function over form category...or write it off as a purely cosmetic issue.

We are not talking about a colt factory trigger here or similar G.I. spec trigger that prob. would not cost more than $30-$40 but rather what is supposed to be a top dollar aftermarket precision drop in trigger unit. This unit will still go bang like a gritty, unpredictable colt stock trigger I am sure, however the question should really be is it giving the user the $225's worth of performance and quality.....My opinion is that unit above clearly does not merit that coin.

[scjbash]

I see both sides of this. One one hand, function is definitely what really matters. On the other, it does suck to get used to a product, then find out they've made changes that aren't an improvement to it. Generally I'm the type who would rather pay an extra few bucks to continue buying what I've come to expect.

The part that stands out to me is the comment from the GM. If he would have said "To keep from having to pass a cost increase on to our customers we've changed the manufacturing process, but it in no way effects the functional quality", then I would have no problems with it. But, "sometimes they look great, sometimes they don't", sounds as if their goal is still to produce them with the same appearance, but are lacking the quality control now to do so. That's a red flag for me, because it makes me wonder if other areas of quality control could become an issue as well, specifically in the areas that effect function and dependability.

[Armati]

This is extremely common in industry. Materials and process change all the time based on many factors like availability of materials, new manufacturing techniques, and simple economics.

Nearly all cars today do not have chrome on their shiny bits. Instead, it is aluminized Mylar embedded in resin.

Your trigger is another case of "they don't make 'em like that anymore."

Fit, finish and looks is really the realm of TOS.

Take a look at Kyle Lamb's book "Green Eyes and Black Rifles." He has a lot to say about function over form. He also talks a good bit about non-standard FCG's.

If you are not training with your rifle then what is the point?

[espnazi]

I also had a small problem with the GM a few months ago. I had sent my trigger for an exchange since it was not resetting, but after two months of waiting and talking with CS rep a couple times I hadn't received anything. I talked to the GM and he said they had never received the trigger unit from while on the previous calls the CS rep had told not to worry and that they had received my trigger and my new unit should be shipping soon. Well long story short he didn't believe i had sent in my trigger, but luckily I still had receipt and after a few calls and a fax of the shipping info they sent out the replacement.

Great Triggers, CS not so much.

[Iraqgunz]

People that are obsessed with pretty things should probably stay away from AR's in general.

[The_Hammer_Man]

I'm with the OP in that timney's triggers aren't as pretty as they used to be.

Tooling getting old?

Cutting cost at the finishing stage?

Just because they could?

Who knows why they changed it.

ETA: The OP reminds me of Bill Wilson back in the day.. geez is that guy a picky bugger! He comes by it honest due to the fact that he's from a long line of watchmakers/goldsmiths.

But like Iraqguns stated.. AR's are not jewelry.


BUT!!!!!

They still work like a charm!

I've recently installed four of their trigger packs into different rifles and had no issues at all.

Predictable and clean breaking like always.... just not as pretty.

Kinda like when your favorite waitress down at the diner forgets to put her makeup on. Dinner tastes just as good.. but the delivery could have been prettier.

[Rusty_Shackleford]

Pretty has nothing to do with it. There quality has been reduced, there price has been raised and I bought the trigger sight unseen based on my previous experience buying from them. I didn't get what I thought I was buying. Say you buy an engine for sale and it's all braided wires, chrome and runs like a raped ape. So you decide you want another for the same price, it arrives plain wires, no chrome but still runs like a raped ape are you going to be happy with it at the same price? I think not.......

[Sanpete]

Pretty has nothing to do with it.

Nonsense. You're commenting only on the looks. It absolutely is all about 'pretty' with you. You're upset about laser engraving vs. hard engraving on a surface that faces the inside of your receiver, never to see the light of day.

You can't say "it's of lesser quality" when you refused to shoot it. :rolleyes:

[jklaughrey]

Hey it's your greenbacks, if you aren't happy then do what you need to remedy that malady. But without testing of said part you can't determine if the function of said trigger is less than previous purchased triggers. Good luck in getting what you want, desire, or need. Like I said it is your cash. You are the determining factor in what you deem acceptable and able to compromise on.

[Rusty_Shackleford]

Nonsense. You're commenting only on the looks. It absolutely is all about 'pretty' with you. You're upset about laser engraving vs. hard engraving on a surface that faces the inside of your receiver, never to see the light of day.

You can't say "it's of lesser quality" when you refused to shoot it. :rolleyes:

How can you defend this?

http://i555.photobucket.com/albums/jj475/Cansler_Tactical/IMG_1380.jpg

[mvician]

Looks nothing like the picture on a very well known retail website.


http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f240/mvician/98dbd11a4b3e7b43f3da1e2548227fcb.jpg

[Captains1911]

To reiterate my reply on TOS:

I have a Timney trigger in my precision AR, and it's one of the nicest triggers I have ever owned. Know why? Because it FUNCTIONS as it was intended. I have never even bothered to examine and scrutinize the finish on the side of the hammer, and I'm not even going to waste me time pulling it out of the safe to examine it, because that would be a waste of about 5 minutes of my life.

[bkb0000]

How can you defend this?

http://i555.photobucket.com/albums/jj475/Cansler_Tactical/IMG_1380.jpg

looks fine to me.

seems like you're making a whole hell of a lot of something out of basically nothing, holms.. just shoot the gun.

[CC556]

I sure wouldn't accept that trigger. I mean, when I take pictures of my gun to post on the internet I can't have a hammer with tool marks on the side!

[mpom]

To the original poster:
Are we ever going to find out how the trigger pull compares to the original, or are you going to leave it in the bag?
I assume you bought the FCG for a working rifle...

mark

[Rusty_Shackleford]

I have said my peace. As of an hour ago I sold it at a discount to a member of another forum. Make of it what you will, I've done what I can to help my fellow consumers a little more informed of Timneys current craftsmanship........

[Quiet-Matt]

I see your gripe Rusty, thanks for the post.

[Captains1911]

I have said peace. As of an hour ago I sold it at a discount to a member of another forum. Make of it what you will, I've done what I can to help my fellow consumers a little more informed of Timneys current craftsmanship........

You have done nothing to prove that there is anything wrong with Timney's current craftsmanship. If anything, you have shown that they have more than reasonable customer service for handling your unwarranted whining in a patient and professional manner.

[Rusty_Shackleford]

You have done nothing to prove that there is anything wrong with Timney's current craftsmanship. If anything, you have shown that they have more than reasonable customer service for handling your unwarranted whining in a patient and professional manner.
http://i555.photobucket.com/albums/jj475/Cansler_Tactical/Smileys/thth21cid5F013c01c5a44424afdced3024.gif

[bkb0000]

sounds like the dude was a little bit of a douche, if you ask me (the timney rep).. but not necessarily out of line. what more could he have done for you? turned back the hands of time and sent you a once-upon-a-time trigger assembly?

as somebody said, they simply changed the way they do things, apparently. they probably realized that putting extra time, money, and effort into the finish of an internal part was pointless. it is. personally, i've never had any interest in these over-priced, gamer trigger assemblies- so i have zero experience with timney. but i do know for those who use them, they seem to be the cat's ass as far as function goes.

so until i see where function is effected, i can't approve of this thread. seems to me it was a bit of a smear attempt to get back at the company for.... what? not cooing your irritation at what you perceive to be a reduction in value? that's all i can figure.

i think you should spend some time on internal reflection, holms. :laugh:

[Rusty_Shackleford]

sounds like the dude was a little bit of a douche, if you ask me (the timney rep).. but not necessarily out of line. what more could he have done for you? turned back the hands of time and sent you a once-upon-a-time trigger assembly?

as somebody said, they simply changed the way they do things, apparently. they probably realized that putting extra time, money, and effort into the finish of an internal part was pointless. it is. personally, i've never had any interest in these over-priced, gamer trigger assemblies- so i have zero experience with timney. but i do know for those who use them, they seem to be the cat's ass as far as function goes.

so until i see where function is effected, i can't approve of this thread. seems to me it was a bit of a smear attempt to get back at the company for.... what? not cooing your irritation at what you perceive to be a reduction in value? that's all i can figure.

i think you should spend some time on internal reflection, holms. :laugh:
Agreed! I should have asked for my money back long ago and moved on. I was really hoping it was just a bad lot of them and not the way it is.......

[C4IGrant]

I gotta say, if it goes INSIDE the gun, I could care less what it looks like. All that matters is that it works.


C4

[SW-Shooter]

Sorry to disagree with some of you but any good machinist will tell you tool marks are not only a sign of poor quality control, but are more prone to failure. Any time there are striations on metal it allows for more frictional contact, corrosion, and the chance of debris adhering to the surface.

[Sanpete]

How can you defend this?

[IMG]http://i555.photobucket.com/albums/jj475/Cansler_Tactical/IMG_1380.jpg /IMG]

I'm not the one looking for stupid drama on the internet, you are. "Saga"? Gimme a break.

Since you didn't shoot it, you can't exactly attack it. You've based your nonsense on "it's not pretty".

[bkb0000]

Sorry to disagree with some of you but any good machinist will tell you tool marks are not only a sign of poor quality control, but are more prone to failure. Any time there are striations on metal it allows for more frictional contact, corrosion, and the chance of debris adhering to the surface.

totally depends on the application- access for cleaning, possibility/types of corrosion, part's use and load, type of material used, etc, etc.. there are millions of situations where the part's finish makes zero difference.

machining is not machining- there are as many different requirements as there are machined parts in the world. if you have an order for 1500 raw trinktorsprocks, machined out of castings, with blueprints for ID and nothing for outside finish, are you going to polish the OD on all those 1500 parts? especially when they're getting boxed up and sent straight to the plater upon final machining?

[Suwannee Tim]

I have an Oldsmobile that overheats and I can't figure out why. Been working on it for a month. Water doesn't circulate. Don't know why. I have a $1200 Theoben air rifle that has been back to Theoben American four times. Still isn't right. I have a Remington 700 243 that shoots a good six inches at 100, I'm having it fixed at my expense. I have a new kitten. My tomcat hates her, beats her up. I am putting a new protective relay in tomorrow. If I get it right no one will notice. If I screw up, a hundred thousand people and two hospitals in the dark. I wish my life was so charmed that I could find time to worry about the finish of the hammer in my AR.:sad:

[GIRLSSHOOT2]

As I see it there are a few issues here:

1. You have way too much time on your hands to document your so-called “issue”
2. The issue you are addressing has no bearing on the functionality of the trigger, so how can it possibly be an issue?
3. The hammer in question is a component which can not even be seen from the outside of the receiver…so why does it need to look pretty?
4. You’re out shipping costs simply because YOU want a hammer that LOOKS stylish. Personally, I think they went above and beyond with placating your ridiculous request.
5. Finally, and probably most importantly, is there really a man who is that concerned with the color of the hammer? Really? Sounds to me like you should be shopping for the perfect pair of high heels, not an assault rifle component.

I have been using Timney triggers for years, and I can say without a doubt that their quality and service is unsurpassed. If they didn’t stand behind their product then explain to me what purpose it served them to try so diligently to satisfy this customer? Personally, I have had nothing but positive experiences with Timney, and I have replaced over 15 of my triggers with theirs, without one single issue. Perhaps if I take these triggers out and throw them under a magnifying glass I might find a set screw I don’t particularly like or one that’s trigger housing is more of a yellowish gold color rather than a gold-ish gold color…..you get where I’m going with this. Aesthetically pleasing is in the eye of the beholder, but quality is in the craftsmanship and reputation. You will be hard pressed to find any manufactures (triggers or otherwise) that offer a full lifetime warranty, quality craftsmanship and as reasonable of price as Timney does. I have and always will recommend Timney triggers for any SERIOUS shooters who are concerned with improving their groups rather than improving their style. :sarcastic: