View Full Version : AR-15 for patrol use
Okay here it is. After lurker much and reading a lot I have decided now is the time to ask my questions.
My department is going to get a new cheif within the net few months. We will be asking him to approve of individually owned rifles for patrol. We currently issue pool Colt 6920 rifles with EOtechs, Surefire 6P flashlights on barrel mounts, GG&G BUIS always up, and Colt 6520 handguards to fit our gunracks. The only guns off the rack that will fit our gunracks now are Colt 6520 carbines. Our SWAT guys get personaly issued Colt 6520s that have been chopped to Commando lengths and converted to select fire. They get to put various and sundry forends on their buns but none fit the racks we have. We shoot 64 grn WinRanger for practice and 75 grn Hornady TAP for duty. I much preferred the rifles when we just had irons only due to my astigmatism that cannot be fully corrected without surgery. I am a Colt schooled armorer back when Ken Elmore was with Colt. I am also one of the PD's instructors for rifle and pistol.
Now having that info to give you an idea where I am coming from I have two questions:
1. What specifications or limitations should we place on people if the new chief allows personal AR-15s?
Mostly this is in reference to the chart and even weapons not listed on "the chart" (ex. Smith and Wesson's VTAC model which has features not listed on "the chart" for Smith M4 rifles) Keep in mind the ammo listed above and the current set up of the rifles will probably have a big impact on management's mind when addressing the specs.
2. This one is more personal about what I should buy. Should I go with the "gold standard" of a Colt 6920 or is a BCM Middy as good as a Colt or DD or Smith VTAC, etc.?
Question #2 will help with question #1 and vice versa so if you could please answer both. Any questions you may have are welcome.
Magic_Salad0892
11-06-10, 21:02
1 - Do it all carbine: BCM 14.5'' LW Midlength.
2 - KISS: Colt 727 + CAR-15 stock.
Ya'll shoot Winchester Ranger for practice? Why?
The_Hammer_Man
11-07-10, 03:18
Ya'll shoot Winchester Ranger for practice? Why?
It's what his PD supplies/requires that he use.
Don't ask why.. someone thought it was a good idea and got it past the city council probably... now it's "tradition" and nearly impossible to change.
On a local level.. couple of my friends who are working for local PD's would LOVE to have any kind of RDS let alone Eotechs.
Like he stated his weapon HAS to fit the locking rack in his squad. So most quad railed weps are out. Even the Magpul MOE handguards won't fit the racks the locals here in SE Wi have.
Black Wrench
11-07-10, 04:13
Like was posted KISS. Unfortuneltly in my dept they issued DPMS. Yeah i know. Anyways i would limit what they can attach as far as lights or sights. I would make it so that all parts going on to the M4 have to be placed on by you or other SWAT members as it is with mine. the good part is that it will keep people from buying Airsoft crap and throwing it onto their M4's due to the fact that they don't seem to know the difference. Keep it strict as far as what can be put on and make sure they stay away from those Chinese imitations. They look real but function like crap.. it's awesome that you're getting Colt rifles, it sucks that you're barely getting them. Should have done that a while ago. Good luck..
It's what his PD supplies/requires that he use.
Don't ask why.. someone thought it was a good idea and got it past the city council probably... now it's "tradition" and nearly impossible to change.
The idiotic ammunition policy needs to change. If he can push for personal weapons, he can push for more practical ammunition. Then the department will have more money for better racks, optics, more training, more rifles, etc.
Like he stated his weapon HAS to fit the locking rack in his squad. So most quad railed weps are out. Even the Magpul MOE handguards won't fit the racks the locals here in SE Wi have.
Where does he say that? He mentions a bunch of times what will not fit the racks, but nowhere does he say the rifle HAS to fit the rack.
Ya'll shoot Winchester Ranger for practice? Why?
It's state bid. It's the cheapest .223/5.56 we can get that doesn't tear up our backstop. The TAP we got because of Doc Roberts advising my PD to carry it. We used to go with Win 50 or 55grn ballisitic silvertips. It took 2 shootings where the rounds did not make it through glass to get the TAP.
The rack issue will need to be addressed at some point. Our SWAT guys are leading that fight for us now since they have issues now. Maybe by the time we sweetalk the new cheif into letting us carry personal rifles the problem will be solved. My solution would be Santa Cruz Gunlocks that you can throw anything into it.
PM sent reference rack issue.
Dan Jones
It's state bid. It's the cheapest .223/5.56 we can get that doesn't tear up our backstop. The TAP we got because of Doc Roberts advising my PD to carry it. We used to go with Win 50 or 55grn ballisitic silvertips. It took 2 shootings where the rounds did not make it through glass to get the TAP.
The rack issue will need to be addressed at some point. Our SWAT guys are leading that fight for us now since they have issues now. Maybe by the time we sweetalk the new cheif into letting us carry personal rifles the problem will be solved. My solution would be Santa Cruz Gunlocks that you can throw anything into it.
I use a Santa Cruz setup and have been very pleased with it. You have to pay attention to where you mount things like lights and VFG's but any handguard will work.
SWATcop556
11-08-10, 03:43
I would keep it very simple. As most know most LEO's are NOT gun people. A Colt 6920 with an Aimpoint (M3 or M2/T1 or H1 if you can get it) in a quality mount. To keep it streamlined and simple the intergrated Surefire forends are pretty "cop-proof" and can work well for right/left handed shooters. A quality 2 pt sling (VCAS) and a FIXED rear sight (DD/Larue). Not a lot to mess with and pretty "training" friendly. Everyone has the same weapon system and its configured the same, which prevents someone wanting to run Chi-com knock off shit, and yes they will try. Cheaper Than Dirt is your worst enemy here.
FWIW Hornady makes a training 75 gr TAP that can be found for a good price direct from them. That way your training ammo is POA/POI with your duty ammo.
I think a Colt 6920 is pretty much "the standard" in this application.
It would be easy to do worse, hard (and not cost effective) to do better.
Our dept does a "buy back" every year. You sign up, they purchase the rifle, and deduct the cost from 26 paychecks over the next year. They select LE6920s which most people like. We also added an optics buy back program where you could get a 512, Comp ML3, T-1, or a MKIV and a mount.
They allow us to carry our personal rifles, if it is of similar spec as a LE6920. I actually got my LMT piston through, and it has a monolithic upper. A far cry from a 6920, but it worked. I highly recommend you press for a similar approach from upstairs. Some rifles don't fit in the racks, and we carry them in the trunk in a soft or hard case.
IMHO, trunk carry is far tactically superior than in our rack. Our racks mount over and behind our heads, on the front of the cage. In a SHTF scenario, first thing I'm doing is bailing out of the car, and use it as cover to move to the trunk, where I can deploy some firepower.
Getting back into the car puts you at a tactical disadvantage.
Again this works for me, and many at my dept. Your brass my have different feelings.
On personal carbines for patrol use I would consider the following limits:
1. Brands - BCM, Colt, Daniel Defense, Noveske, LMT, KAC
2. Optics: Eotech, Aimpoint, Trijicon or Leupold Mk IV, Nightforce, Schmidt Bender.
3. Optic mounts: Larue or Bobro.
4. Forearm replacements - There is a dizzying array of great stuff out there, and I think cops should get to choose the ones they like as long as it is not made in China crap. Same with buttstocks and grips.
5. Flash hider / brake: Flash hiders only, no brakes due to side blast which may prove distracting to a fellow officer at a crucial moment.
6. Barrel length: Not longer than 20 inches or shorter than 10 inches.
7. Trigger: Need a pull wt of 3 pounds or more. Probably a list of acceptable brands could be made.
8. Weaponlight: Surefire - 65 lumens or more.
I would keep it very simple. As most know most LEO's are NOT gun people. A Colt 6920 with an Aimpoint (M3 or M2/T1 or H1 if you can get it) in a quality mount. To keep it streamlined and simple the intergrated Surefire forends are pretty "cop-proof" and can work well for right/left handed shooters. A quality 2 pt sling (VCAS) and a FIXED rear sight (DD/Larue). Not a lot to mess with and pretty "training" friendly. Everyone has the same weapon system and its configured the same, which prevents someone wanting to run Chi-com knock off shit, and yes they will try. Cheaper Than Dirt is your worst enemy here.
FWIW Hornady makes a training 75 gr TAP that can be found for a good price direct from them. That way your training ammo is POA/POI with your duty ammo.
This for the win.
I would keep it very simple. As most know most LEO's are NOT gun people.
This is good.
sundance435
11-08-10, 21:27
Our dept does a "buy back" every year. You sign up, they purchase the rifle, and deduct the cost from 26 paychecks over the next year. They select LE6920s which most people like. We also added an optics buy back program where you could get a 512, Comp ML3, T-1, or a MKIV and a mount.
They allow us to carry our personal rifles, if it is of similar spec as a LE6920. I actually got my LMT piston through, and it has a monolithic upper. A far cry from a 6920, but it worked. I highly recommend you press for a similar approach from upstairs. Some rifles don't fit in the racks, and we carry them in the trunk in a soft or hard case.
IMHO, trunk carry is far tactically superior than in our rack. Our racks mount over and behind our heads, on the front of the cage. In a SHTF scenario, first thing I'm doing is bailing out of the car, and use it as cover to move to the trunk, where I can deploy some firepower.
Getting back into the car puts you at a tactical disadvantage.
Again this works for me, and many at my dept. Your brass my have different feelings.
That program sounds like a great idea. It would also be a good way of making sure people couldn't introduce their own crap rifles into the mix. If you will only purchase them a quality rifle, it lessens the chance that something like a DPMS will make its way in somehow.
My Department has a personal shotgun policy, the rifle's get shot down year after year due to "liability". Basically the Rangemaster has to approve your weapon when you qualify with it every year. This pretty much ensures that only Remington & Mossberg guns without a bunch of aftermarket gunshow crap get approved.
For a personally owned rifle program you need to specify something broad, ie "an M4 patterned carbine with white light, iron sights, and sling" that must be individually inspected and approved every time you qualify. Limit RDS to EoTech, Aimpoint, and Trijicon. The Elzetta lightmounts will work with most rifle racks, are cheap and easy to use. A 2" piece of rail and VTAC mount might work, too.
To prevent gunshow Franken-builds require that the rifles be "factory built". Your "gun guys" will still be able to bring in a Noveske/BCM/etc (most won't know who they are anyway)upper on a factory lower and your non-gun guys will stick with Bushmaster, S&W, Colt, etc. And buy a MOACKS tool and be prepared to stake some castle nuts.
If your Rangemaster/Training Staff are inspecting the weapons then everything should be good to go.
If your Department is already buying everyone Colts then you're miles ahead of most of us anyway.
Stay Safe,
Rob
johnnychimpo
11-09-10, 10:07
PM sent
ThirdWatcher
11-09-10, 14:51
That program sounds like a great idea. It would also be a good way of making sure people couldn't introduce their own crap rifles into the mix. If you will only purchase them a quality rifle, it lessens the chance that something like a DPMS will make its way in somehow.
I agree. This kinda common sense is unusual in LE.
Glad you guys appreciate the program. It has been great and has gotten a TON of patrol rifles out on our streets.
Glad you guys appreciate the program. If anyone has specific questions about how it works if you are trying to sell it at your pd, drop me a pm. It has put a good number of patrol rifles on our streets.
Like was posted KISS. Unfortuneltly in my dept they issued DPMS. Yeah i know. Anyways i would limit what they can attach as far as lights or sights. I would make it so that all parts going on to the M4 have to be placed on by you or other SWAT members as it is with mine. the good part is that it will keep people from buying Airsoft crap and throwing it onto their M4's due to the fact that they don't seem to know the difference. Keep it strict as far as what can be put on and make sure they stay away from those Chinese imitations. They look real but function like crap.. it's awesome that you're getting Colt rifles, it sucks that you're barely getting them. Should have done that a while ago. Good luck..
I fail to see how a SWAT member is more qualified to place an item on a carbine than the officer, with armorer supervision. Keeping in mind that the majority of SWAT Cats aren't "gun guys" either.
Using a authorized parts list and disseminating it to the ranks would go a long way.
sundance435
11-10-10, 09:54
I fail to see how a SWAT member is more qualified to place an item on a carbine than the officer, with armorer supervision. Keeping in mind that the majority of SWAT Cats aren't "gun guys" either.
Using a authorized parts list and disseminating it to the ranks would go a long way.
It's just typical upper-management rationale in law enforcement.
Resurrected for an update from the OP...
Any word?
I have to tell you I have had it with our departments patrol rifle policies, they make no sense. We are issued RRA's and have the option to own our personal rifles, either RRA's or COLTs. Obviously I chose colt. I thought I saw a loop hole to carry something other than RRA or Colt and inquired about an SR15 upper to throw on top of my 6920 lower, making the rifle offcially still a "Colt". Make a long story short, its a no go. So I can have a RRA's POS upper but not the KAC! On top of this we shoot the 50 silvertips! I guess its better than nothing, but still. These people that sit behind a desk all day and fire their weapons once a year at qual shouldnt be allowed to decide what the patrol officers get to or not get to carry.
Sorry rant over.
To the OP, you can never go wrong with the rifles to the left of the chart.
Check each manufacturer to see which ones will give a LEO discount if the rifle is purchased with the standard ATF letter on department letterhead.
There are alot of quality lights on the market and I feel a light on the rifle is a must.
I like the Aimpoint ML2. It's durable and the battery lasts forever.
Consider a Vickers sling. I use a HK93 sling on my carbine rigged similar to the Vickers sling.
Resurrected for an update from the OP...
Any word?
Nothing yet. The decsion on who is going to be the next chief should happen next month. Once that happens I think some people higher on the totem pole are going to casually mention it in passing to see his reaction.
I started asking questions and researching now that way if his reaction is favorable we can hit him with a proposal right away. That way he doesn't have any time to have second thoughts.
I'll let you guys know if we get approval. I will probably post pics.
I'd be happy with the rifles you have if you could get it approved to modify them with armorer supervision for the mods, or get the Chief to get SWAT and Patrol on the same sheet of music when it comes to tactical rifles, their armorer should be working with the patrol armorer side by side. The guns you have are great for patrol and for the average younger officers that don't know weapons would try to get stuff that looks "cool". The older officers, if they know weapons, I'm sure would have good common sense if they know guns. It all comes down to drafting new SOP's and getting that up the chain. First thing I'd do is try to get the Chief to let you train with the ammo you're gonna use in the field, or at least qualify with the ammo you use in the field. I'm an old army Colt armorer and I know from years of experience in the Military and Law Enforcement the young guys for the most part if given the lattitude to modify or use their own weapons end up getting stuff just cause they saw it in a movie and it looks "cool"!
I probably didn't answer any questions but just offering my opinion.
langston302
12-09-10, 19:59
Our PD's policy is simple. They are not gonna issue rifles to any one but SWAT. ( they are Bushmaster anyway )
If the individual officer wants to carry a Patrol Rifle the Rangemaster needs to sign off on it. Then after its armored and meets specs the officer then has to attend a 3 day patrol rifle course and qualify with their rifle with a 90 or better on the CLEET course.
as far as specs go they are pretty simple it turns out since they allow for bushmasters in the inventory. There is no policy in place at our PD that outlines what is going to be acceptable and not. I am working to get that changed and specifics added to the existing wording.
I am right now I am the only non SWAT officer ( Supervisors excluded) qualified to carry a patrol rifle. Mine rifle is a build made up from Spike's M4LE Upper and BCG and a DPMS lower with Spikes Battle Trigger. MAGPUL MOE furniture and rails with a SUREFIRE G2 LED in a crap mount I made. Iron sights for right now and a crappy sling.
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