View Full Version : Fixing the Unnatural M4 Grip Angle
I love shooting my M4gery, but find my strong-side wrist gets very painful after a while. Has anyone found an ideal way of addressing this issue?
I assume most people will never experience any problems, but among heavy users or military personal it seems possible symptoms like Carpal Tunnel or others could even show up.
Here's a quick Photoshop to help illustrate what I mean:
6503
This would be a natural grip angle, but seems virtually impossible to introduce into the system:
6504
A longer pull (combined with high-set off the bore optics) such as on the FN2000 appears to give a more natural grip angle:
6506
you could always chickenwing...
Grumpy MSG
11-06-10, 20:39
Actually there is an easy solution, just extend the stock some. Just because you have a collapseable stock doesn't mean you have to leave it collapsed all the time. It is to easy to hit the latch and extend it.
I've never heard of this one before. I finished a class the weekend before last, and my out of shape butt was sore all over. But I didn't have any wrist pain. :confused:
The "best" grip replacement I found in other threads where people complained about this is the Stark, but the grip angle still doesn't seem as natural as it should.
It uses two thinks to make it a bit more natural - dropping the grip a bit "lower" so the arm is at a slightly less severe angle, and reducing the strange angle on the standard grip (that only seems natural if you were firing from the hip??)
Here is one compared with the popular Magpul Moe:
6507
Maybe the best solution at this time is to combine the Stark with extending out the collapsible stock? I ordered one tonight, so will find out soon if it seems like much of an improvement or not.
I've never heard of this one before. I finished a class the weekend before last, and my out of shape butt was sore all over. But I didn't have any wrist pain. :confused:
Thanks for the input - and you're probably right. I'm probably just in the minority here and most people never notice it or don't find it to be a problem.
My full-time job is computer-related, so when I take a class the unnatural angle probably just aggravates existing issues. For someone 100% healthy it may not be much of a problem.
maybe an AR is not for you.
ever think about a mini 14?.:sarcastic:
Bolt_Overide
11-06-10, 23:34
the angles arent nearly as extreme when you extend the stock....
The Stark grip help a lot, at least for me. Got to have big hands for it though, it does increase the trigger reach.
U.S. Palm/Tangodown has a new version of the Tangodown grip, that is thicker and sets "lower" than the original that I found had the same problems with angle as the original AR grip. I just ordered one as a replacement for a Ergo grip after I got tired of waiting for the rubber covered MOE to ever get released.
RAM Engineer
11-07-10, 00:54
You could use the HK 416 grips.
I think (and could be wrong) the grip angle helps the hand be in the natural "pointing" position and giving the trigger finger a more strait rearward pull, but I have the same issues wish for a more strait grip angle. I wish Magpul would design some inserts for the MIAD to solve this!!!
Black Wrench
11-07-10, 04:31
The same issue was a big reason I went with the Stark industry grip. It is more vertical than most grips as I keep my stock some what collapsed. I hope you like it, I know I did. Not sure what the problem with my wrist is but it did alleviate it.
I think many of us have damaged the cartilage between the head of the ulna and wrist bones causing a reduced range of motion there and obviously tenderness and such. I actually broke my radius and it grew back shorter (thus ulna too long) and this caused me major probs with grip angle and switching selector lever. Just had 2 surgeries for it and its better, but not completely alleviated. I really need a more strait grip angle and a longer selector lever to make me fully functional again:mad:
Eurodriver
11-07-10, 10:16
I get it now! Californian law makers are just looking out for our carpal tunnel worries...
http://www.exilemachine.com/IMG_7138_CR.JPG
Jay Cunningham
11-07-10, 10:37
As some others have alluded to, you have chosen to adopt a particular methodology (i.e. how you grip your carbine) where the stock must be collapsed. This is what is aggravating your wrist. It can possibly be fixed through gear, but it will most certainly be fixed by extending your stock and blading off slightly.
Everything has pros and cons.
Actually there is an easy solution, just extend the stock some. Just because you have a collapseable stock doesn't mean you have to leave it collapsed all the time. It is to easy to hit the latch and extend it.
Holy smokes Batman, it's like magic, but it isn't "cool"
rocket science it is:eek:
...among heavy users or military personal it seems possible symptoms like Carpal Tunnel or others could even show up.
Back that statement up...with even the tiniest shred of medical research.
You guys are right in that extending the stock and blading off will help, but some of us use AR other than for range sessions and tactical classes. I, for example, have a need to keep the upper body facing my target minimize exposing my armor’s weak point. When upper body is facing your target, like in handgun isosceles stance, you have to collapse the stock almost all the way to get a proper cheek weld, and the pistol grip angle designed for a rifle with long stock and meant to be shot bladed is too extreme. Just my 2 bits.
I know where you're coming from. At one time I was big into Paintball and there are alot of markers that have been designed to take these ergonomic issues into account.
:confused:
The natural placement of the forearm/wrist/hand as it rises from your side is at odds with the angle of the M4/ m16 pistol grip as you demonstrated in your photo. Ergonomically, the grip is almost backward.
:confused::confused:
I know, most people are now going "WTF"? Here are some examples of how the paintball marker designers have tackled this issue:
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=6514&stc=1&d=1289154037
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=6515&stc=1&d=1289154083
The "Vert" grip & the "Y" grip are Waaaay more comfortable to manipulate when you are carrying the marker high & tight up on your shoulder.
I know, I know. Aesthetically, not what people are used to. Functionally, ALOT of difference between a 'hair-trigger' paint gun and a real weapon.
Still, you gotta admit with all the technical innovations that have been applied to firearms, Ergonomics have been the biggest afterthought.
:fie:
variablebinary
11-07-10, 12:36
Change the stock position, and voila
Change the stock position, and voila
Extending the stock doesnt solve the problem/ reduce the angle, only lessens it slightly. Extending the stock also changes his hold on the hand guard/AFG, not to mention the balance of the weapon.
When I got my noveske, tangodown grip was on there. my small hand did not worked on that grip. My wrist was hurting too. And I ordered troy battle ax grip. Size is perfect but if angle was downward little more it would have been 100%.
Like someone said, hk grip is one iam willing to try out.
This thread just goes to show that there is no one size fits all. I have smaller hands but prefer the Tango down to all others. Ergo is also good for me. When you add in arm length, possible previous injuries, weak arm placement, shooting technique, experience, eye dominance or other vision issues and many I'm leaving off it doesn't surprise me how many can't work well with the standard A-2 grip and stock, it surprises me how many can.
The "Vert" grip & the "Y" grip are Waaaay more comfortable to manipulate when you are carrying the marker high & tight up on your shoulder.
I know, I know. Aesthetically, not what people are used to. Functionally, ALOT of difference between a 'hair-trigger' paint gun and a real weapon.
Still, you gotta admit with all the technical innovations that have been applied to firearms, Ergonomics have been the biggest afterthought.
:fie:
Thanks for sharing. Those grips definitely seem to have the right idea.
From what I understand, the Stark grip is probably most comparable to the Verticle grip you shared, and noone currently makes a "Y" grip.
I think it might be neat to take a Magpul moe grip, chop it where it attaches to the gun, and use some kind of filler material to make up for the gap. I'm not too handy, but it seems like it wouldn't be too difficult to do with basic tools. Is there an ideal putty or something that could be used for this?
Again, excuse the bad Photoshops -
Current lower:
6516
Improved (straight) grip:
6517
Y Grip / Close to ideal grip angle:
6518
Muddyboots
11-07-10, 14:51
No one has mentioned warming up, stretching or strengthening. Most recent research on repetitive strain injuries point out that the strain is repetitive and in a limited range of the joint's motion range.
I'm a rock climber and use a lot of hand tools that could cause repetitive strain injury in one of my day jobs so I've spent some time studying RSI. I did this ESPECIALLY after my spouse was unable to use her hands (90% disabled) for two years due to RSI. She cured it with soft tissue work, stretching and strengthening the whole range of joint motion. Some military units are actually working very effectively with the concept of the "Combat Athlete" and teaching things like stretching and strengthening weak areas to prevent injury. You might want to look into that.
If your M4 grip is causing you pain, it may actually be aggravating a condition that is being caused by something else in your life. Back up and look at the whole picture and find the root before you can't open a jar on your own. The pain is no joke and it's there for a reason. The question is WHY? Don't just make the pain go away by changing the hardware, fix the software so the problem can't return.
I hope this helps you!
Muddyboots
No one has mentioned warming up, stretching or strengthening. Most recent research on repetitive strain injuries point out that the strain is repetitive and in a limited range of the joint's motion range.
I'm a rock climber and use a lot of hand tools that could cause repetitive strain injury in one of my day jobs so I've spent some time studying RSI. I did this ESPECIALLY after my spouse was unable to use her hands (90% disabled) for two years due to RSI. She cured it with soft tissue work, stretching and strengthening the whole range of joint motion. Some military units are actually working very effectively with the concept of the "Combat Athlete" and teaching things like stretching and strengthening weak areas to prevent injury. You might want to look into that.
If your M4 grip is causing you pain, it may actually be aggravating a condition that is being caused by something else in your life. Back up and look at the whole picture and find the root before you can't open a jar on your own. The pain is no joke and it's there for a reason. The question is WHY? Don't just make the pain go away by changing the hardware, fix the software so the problem can't return.
I hope this helps you!
Muddyboots
I appreciate it, and you're right. It sounds like most of the people who have noticed this issue (me included) have some other issues that cause the angle of grip to be more of an issue.
Hopefully the "straighter" grip from the Stark helps like others have said, but maybe instead of considering crazy-looking negative-cant grip options, exercises/stretches should be the priority and maintaining wrist/hand/joint health the main consideration.
I am going to take an entirely different approach here.
As far as I am concerned the only use for the pistol grip on an m4 while firing is as a reference point for hand placement and something to give a little support to your hand while squeezing off round after round. Control of the weapon is maintained by the hand that is not on fire control. The only time you really need a firm grip on the pistol grip is when shouldering your weapon or carrying at the low ready or similar position. With the weapon shouldered and ready to fire your hand on fire control can be as limp as a dick. With that said, I don't see the need to fret over the grip.
RogerinTPA
11-07-10, 21:24
[QUOTE=Heidevolk;806936]I love shooting my M4gery, but find my strong-side wrist gets very painful after a while. Has anyone found an ideal way of addressing this issue?
I assume most people will never experience any problems, but among heavy users or military personal it seems possible symptoms like Carpal Tunnel or others could even show up.
WTF???:rolleyes: I never EVER heard of that, until now and I shoot 12K+ rounds fired a year. Shooting 1500 rounds of .45 in a weekend and MAYBE I'll have a little soreness in my wrist. As others have stated, extend the stock and relax your hand a little (stop death gripping/white knuckling your grip).
I just said it seems possible. Many professions (e.g. drummers, computer programmers) can experience repetitive strain injuries.
Others on here have attested to experiencing problems, but I don't know their background. Though, considering most military personal are younger, it may be a non-existent issue.
My thought is the AR was designed along time ago with a different shooting style in mind (mostly prone) and the original longer LOP worked well for that and the grip angle worked well for that, but with today's shooting styles being more dynamic and mobile the AR's LOP has changed dramatically and the grip angle has been ignored.
As Big StiCK said The LOP affects many things and it also affects how one moves and shoots effectively which is going to be obviously different amounts for different people, so just saying "extend the stock and voila" is not a fix it is a bandaid (copout) or actually a more problematic hinderance than wrist discomfort. If we really all thought like that then there would not even be an M4 and only M16s and definitely not an M4C.net. IMHO;)
Quiet-Matt
11-07-10, 22:24
http://www.pkfirearms.com/product_images/0000/0033/item_86.jpgThis may be for you.
victoriouslv
11-07-10, 23:40
As odd as it seems I was just thinking about this as I was handling the HK 416 grip that came with an early model as a Post dealer sample. It is truly straight down and noticably different from the usual A2 angle. Although rediculously expensive, look at the picture linked below to see what I mean.
http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/HK-416-HK-417-Battle-Grip-Variant-2-14p1023.htm
I like to run my stock one click out from fully collapsed. The Stark grip is by far my favorite grip on the market. I recently tried the new Palm USA AR-BG to see if it worked for me, and no-dice! The Stark is still the only grip I will run....and I couldn't care less about how ugly it looks:rolleyes:
I have tons of orthopedic problems from CTS to Arthritis and I have no problems with the grip of the AR platform when I have the stock out properly.
The Tango Down has probably the most angled grip out of all of them, including the new BG-17, so it seems they're going in the "wrong" direction.
My issue is I have to pull the trigger with my middle finger due to a nerve injury on my pointer finger. You wanna talk about screwed up ergonomics that creates?!
This would be a natural grip angle, but seems virtually impossible to introduce into the system:
6504
I don't know why but this hand position talk reminded me of firing an AT4. Maybe you should design a thumb trigger for the AR platform. :D
Heres a link (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-23-25/ch4.htm) This is the quickest thing I could find to help understand what I'm talking about.
No one has mentioned warming up, stretching or strengthening.
I'll second this with my own personal experience. I am a very right-handed person, but recently (within the last 6 months) started shooting rifle lefty due to eye dominance and acuity issues. When shooting right handed, I never had an issue. When I started shooting lefty, I noticed that same strain in the wrist you describe.
Nothing had changed equipment-wise between the 2 (same rifle, same grip, running the same adjustment on the stock). The only thing that changed was the hand on the pistol grip. I also notice a difference in other areas (trying to shoot rifle without using the support hand, for example), my left side just isn't as strong as my right.
That's not exactly hard science, but it seems entirely reasonable (when looking at the overall picture) the reason for that strain magically appearing on my left side when it isn't there on the right is due to the same lack of strength / conditioning that crops up in the other areas.
Thanks for sharing. Those grips definitely seem to have the right idea.
From what I understand, the Stark grip is probably most comparable to the Verticle grip you shared, and noone currently makes a "Y" grip.
I think it might be neat to take a Magpul moe grip, chop it where it attaches to the gun, and use some kind of filler material to make up for the gap. I'm not too handy, but it seems like it wouldn't be too difficult to do with basic tools. Is there an ideal putty or something that could be used for this?
Again, excuse the bad Photoshops -
Current lower:
6516
Improved (straight) grip:
6517
Y Grip / Close to ideal grip angle:
6518
The M4 grip angle is designed to give the operator more control over the rifle than a traditional rifle stock, while at the same time giving the M4 the attributes of the rifle stock. The rifle stock is designed to keep the hand and arm up and out of the way for prone shooting. If you change the grip into what you've shown in your pics, then the arm would be way down making prone shooting difficult or impossible.
Prone shooting will always be a part of projectile warfare, and the grip angle of the M4 allows you to still shoot prone effectively.
I'm in the 'Extend the stock' camp. Unless you are a pygmy or wearing a mountain of body armor and gear, I can't see why you would even want to use it fully collapsed.
Thanks for sharing. Those grips definitely seem to have the right idea.
From what I understand, the Stark grip is probably most comparable to the Verticle grip you shared, and noone currently makes a "Y" grip.
I think it might be neat to take a Magpul moe grip, chop it where it attaches to the gun, and use some kind of filler material to make up for the gap. I'm not too handy, but it seems like it wouldn't be too difficult to do with basic tools. Is there an ideal putty or something that could be used for this?
Y Grip / Close to ideal grip angle:
6518
A company tried to push this idea in paintball a number of years ago. They failed. I tried running a paintball marker using a similar grip (canted backwards) and it made actually shooting the thing a pain. My trigger finger just did not want to pull back on a trigger when my wrist was at that angle. It wasn't a huge deal because paintball markers have trigger pulls rated in ounces, but I imagine with a stock AR-15 trigger you'd be hard pressed to get the trigger to the rear without the gun moving all over the place.
Extend your stock. It will probably alleviate the problem more than any other single solution--it's also free. Ergonomics are not one size fits all. You'll find something that works for you.
GermanSynergy
11-08-10, 11:16
I like the Stark grip as well. Very comfortable.
A company tried to push this idea in paintball a number of years ago. They failed. I tried running a paintball marker using a similar grip (canted backwards) and it made actually shooting the thing a pain. My trigger finger just did not want to pull back on a trigger when my wrist was at that angle. It wasn't a huge deal because paintball markers have trigger pulls rated in ounces, but I imagine with a stock AR-15 trigger you'd be hard pressed to get the trigger to the rear without the gun moving all over the place.
That would be the main issue- the trigger mechanism would need to be completely reworked to accommodate the new grip angle and the forces/resistance required to operate it. Not a bad idea since what we currently have is 400 year old technology (trigger, sear & hammer). Tried and true yes, but still, if we can put a man on the friggin moon, we can come up with sumtin better, no?
:(
As an aside, manipulation of the trigger & the quality of the mechanism are a major factor in accuracy. Is it such a bad idea to rethink this whole process?
;)
I'm very glad to finally see some good grip options coming onto the marketplace from BCM & Magpul.
Took a year and a half, but what the hell :dance3:
I agree with the extend-the-stock camp, but I also run a magpul K grip and fell in love with it.
Extend your stock before you spend money.
I have only been shooting the M16/4 for 24 years, more than half my life, and love the stock grip.
4thPointOfContact
04-04-12, 15:20
The M4 stock is adjustable to accommodate differing body shapes, thick winter clothing, and armor. If you have crawled that far up a fully collapsed stock with just a cotton T-shirt then it's possible that the stock isn't the problem.
Black Wrench
04-12-12, 02:54
So Heidevolk what did you end up with? How did you like the Stark grip so far. I figure after 2 years you should have some good info on it. I'm still running mine and don't plan on changing anytime soon. One question though do you still run the stock collapsed?
I assume most people will never experience any problems, but among heavy users or military personal it seems possible symptoms like Carpal Tunnel or others could even show up.
We're comming up on almost 50 years of the AR platform in military use and I've never heard of a case of Carpal Tunnel assocciated with the grip angle.
As others have said, the pistol grip is there to rest your hand on while working the trigger, not for you to muscle the gun around with.
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