View Full Version : The debut of the patent-pending "FIREARM CONTROL DEVICE"
I am pleased to introduce the latest invention from my brother and I, which we are referring to as the "firearm control device." In this embodiment, this patent pending invention greatly improves weapon manipulation on the AR-15 family of rifles, especially with regards to clearing malfunctions in a rapid, fluid and tactically sound manner. Below is a prototype demonstration video of my brother putting the invention through it's paces.
Direct link to demonstration video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb6Z1sBvlqI)
In this embodiment, when used to aid in malfunction clearance, the primary advantage this invention provides is the ability for the weapon operator to release the magazine and also lock the bolt to the rear, solely by depressing the magazine release and pulling the charging handle. This is useful for clearing a difficult malfunction where remedial action is necessary, such as a double feed where you would need to lock the bolt back and strip the magazine.
Being able to release the magazine and lock the bolt back with a single button (the magazine release) is considerably faster and easier to do. This saves potentially critical time, and simplifies the procedure overall. Without this invention, the weapon operator must change how he is holding the weapon and press the bolt catch and magazine release separately.
In this embodiment, the bolt catch is only activated when the magazine release is fully depressed and the bolt held to the rear. As a result, the bolt will not be locked back without direct input from the operator, avoiding accidental locking of the bolt. This embodiment of the invention does not release the bolt catch, thus avoiding accidental release of the bolt. Further, cycling the action with the charging handle does not release the magazine or lock the bolt back unless you press/hold the magazine release.
It is important to keep in mind that, with this device installed, nothing prevents the operator of the weapon from manipulating it with the traditional manual of arms. The bolt catch can still be activated by depressing it's lower surface as it is currently employed. This invention adds an additional option for the operator of the firearm, but does not remove any of the controls currently on the weapon.
There are additional functions which this invention can perform, but malfunction clearance is probably its most important improvement to weapon manipulation. In this embodiment, the design is also very elegant, adding no additional parts to the weapon.
We're approaching the completion of the prototype phase and are gearing up for low rate production in a few weeks. Questions, comments and constructive criticism are welcome.
Wayland.
Update:
My apologies for failing in my duties to keep M4C up to speed... We've been a little busy. ;)
Concerning the "Firearm Control Device"...parts are machined and awaiting finishing... Lord willing we will have these out shortly.
When finished, the parts will be shipped out to the T&E volunteers ASAP for feedback.
Below is a photo of an in-the-white production prototype made for my brothers personal testing. The production units will have cleaner welds, and will be in matte black or beadblasted.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-uwO8nqqalwQ/Tfgfsq2_F1I/AAAAAAAAAb8/Rq3SrdD4pfY/s800/pic.jpg
Feedback is always welcome.
dieselgeek
11-06-10, 22:48
First post gets one free?
I'm in
PM for my address.
Whootsinator
11-06-10, 22:50
While I support the development of new products, there is an immediate BLARING problem I foresee. Can you lock the bolt back without dropping the magazine, or would you have to drop the mag, lock the bolt back, and then reinsert the magazine? I've been wrong before, and I will be wrong for many times to come, but it does not appear possible to me. One other thing to consider is BAD lever (and similar device) compatibility. I don't see a way to make this device compatible with those devices. Perhaps your own hybrid of the two?
Good luck with the development of your product. I look forward to seeing this materialize and evolve. :)
First post gets one free?
I'm in
PM for my address.
Nice... "I'll support your wares, just give it to me for free!":rolleyes:
A very elegant design. You certainly came to the right place to gauge the efficacy and potential of your device. Best of luck to you and your brother with your endeavor!
Cheers,
Marty
While I support the development of new products, there is an immediate BLARING problem I foresee. Can you lock the bolt back without dropping the magazine, or would you have to drop the mag, lock the bolt back, and then reinsert the magazine? I've been wrong before, and I will be wrong for many times to come, but it does not appear possible to me. One other thing to consider is BAD lever (and similar device) compatibility. I don't see a way to make this device compatible with those devices. Perhaps your own hybrid of the two?
Good luck with the development of your product. I look forward to seeing this materialize and evolve. :)
Nice... "I'll support your wares, just give it to me for free!":rolleyes:
Looks like the paddle is still operable independent of the mag catch or 'FCD'.
While I support the development of new products, there is an immediate BLARING problem I foresee. Can you lock the bolt back without dropping the magazine, or would you have to drop the mag, lock the bolt back, and then reinsert the magazine?
Bolt catch can still be activated in the traditional manner by pushing the bottom of the bolt catch, allowing you to lock the bolt to the rear without dropping the magazine.
Good luck with the development of your product. I look forward to seeing this materialize and evolve. :)
Thank you. :)
Whootsinator
11-06-10, 23:00
Looks like the paddle is still operable independent of the mag catch or 'FCD'.
After reviewing the video, I see that now. Thank you for making me take a second look.
Edit - Wayland, you responded while I was typing. Thanks for the quick response.
The more I think about it and the more I see it, the more I like it. :)
While I support the development of new products, there is an immediate BLARING problem I foresee. Can you lock the bolt back without dropping the magazine, or would you have to drop the mag, lock the bolt back, and then reinsert the magazine? I've been wrong before, and I will be wrong for many times to come, but it does not appear possible to me. One other thing to consider is BAD lever (and similar device) compatibility. I don't see a way to make this device compatible with those devices. Perhaps your own hybrid of the two?
Good luck with the development of your product. I look forward to seeing this materialize and evolve. :)
Nice... "I'll support your wares, just give it to me for free!":rolleyes:
Yes, you can lock the bolt group to the rear without dropping the magazine. It appears his part allows you to drop the mag and lock the bolt group to the rear just by holding the magazine release.
Yes, you can lock the bolt group to the rear without dropping the magazine. It appears his part allows you to drop the mag and lock the bolt group to the rear just by holding the magazine release.
You are correct. It only takes a slight depression of the magazine release to drop a magazine. With additional depression, the bolt catch is activated.
Wayland.
Dionysusigma
11-06-10, 23:26
I like the idea, and the execution. Not sure I like the name... ;) When do you plan on release and what will the price be?
I like the idea, and the execution. Not sure I like the name... ;)
The name may change in time... We're running with this for now. It's the substance which actually matters.
When do you plan on release
As soon as possible. The gears are turning for low rate production, as soon as we have production models in hand and quality tested, they'll be available.
and what will the price be?
I wish I could answer that... There are too many variables at this time for me to say. M4Carbine will know as soon as I do.
Wayland.
A couple of questions:
- Would it work with a MagPul BAD?
- What happened to the "dust cover" project to know if the bolt was in battery?
Thanks
LowSpeed_HighDrag
11-06-10, 23:56
The innovation is strong in this one. Cool product!
- What happened to the "dust cover" project to know if the bolt was in battery?
This invention is considerably easier to produce, and we consider it a higher priority. Development of the BID continues, but we intend to bring this invention to market first.
Thanks
Thank you for the interest. :)
Wayland.
The innovation is strong in this one. Cool product!
Thanks. :D
Wayland.
Belmont31R
11-07-10, 00:07
Need a beta tester?
Very neat. Looks like a great alternative for those of us that don't like the BAD lever. Not sure why anyone would want to run a BAD along with this.
Depending on price, I may just have to test one of these out.
I agree, though, the name is too vague. Go with something unique, and more related to what the part does, and keep it short. Like, "Qwik Lock", or something.
If you're in a high stress situation or wearing gloves with less tactile sensation, could you inadvertently activate the bolt catch during a reload?
Then you'd have to use the charging handle and add a step that would take longer than using something like the BAD lever to get back into the fight.
Very clever. Seems simple enough and fits a market that is always dying for the latest tacti-cool parts that I'm guessing it'll be a hit.
I'm also wondering how it'll interface with a BAD lever.
Belmont31R
11-07-10, 00:14
If you're in a high stress situation or wearing gloves with less tactile sensation, could you inadvertently activate the bolt catch during a reload?
Then you'd have to use the charging handle and add a step that would take longer than using something like the BAD lever to get back into the fight.
If you run out of rounds the bolt will be back already. If you have a round in the chamber, and hit the bolt catch its not going to do anything since the bolt is already forward.
If you're in a high stress situation or wearing gloves with less tactile sensation, could you inadvertently activate the bolt catch during a reload?
Then you'd have to use the charging handle and add a step that would take longer than using something like the BAD lever to get back into the fight.
Looking at the design I don't think what you're talking about is even remotely possible. The top part is pushing the top of the bolt catch out. So it would be like pressing on the bottom of the bolt catch. So in theory, you're shooting and the mag is empty and bolt locks open to the rear. You depress the magazine release which also presses the bolt catch out, which would do nothing since it's already locked to the rear. Throw your fresh mag in, tap your BAD lever and you're back in the fight.
But if your bolt doesn't lock to the rear on an empty you can release the mag, put a new mag in, charge the charging handle and again you're back in the fight. This mechanism has no affect on what you're picturing in your head, it's just not possible.
If you run out of rounds the bolt will be back already. If you have a round in the chamber, and hit the bolt catch its not going to do anything since the bolt is already forward.
What I mean is if I run out of rounds, the bolt is back. I hit the mag release, but hit it too hard. The mag drops and the bolt goes forward. When I re-insert the fresh mag, I have to use the charging handle instead of just activating the bolt catch.
If you're in a high stress situation or wearing gloves with less tactile sensation, could you inadvertently activate the bolt catch during a reload?
Then you'd have to use the charging handle and add a step that would take longer than using something like the BAD lever to get back into the fight.
I'm having a hard time invisioning an acidental lock back during a reload. This product probably wasn't designed as a battery assist device, but for the shooter to use the paddle for release, like many of us prefer.
If you're in a high stress situation or wearing gloves with less tactile sensation, could you inadvertently activate the bolt catch during a reload?
Short answer: No.
Long answer:
If you're doing a reload on a dry gun (magazine empty), the bolt will have already locked back. This embodiment of the invention can only activate the bolt catch, it does not act as a bolt release in any way. Thus you will not accidentally release the bolt. In fact, by strongly depressing the magazine catch, you would be ensuring the bolt catch is fully activated, thus reducing the likelihood of accidental bolt release.
If you're doing a reload during a lull in the fight, on a partial magazine, the firearm will have a loaded chamber and will be bolt forward. In this case, it is not possible to activate or release the bolt catch at all, so no such accident is possible.
Thank you for your interest.
Wayland.
I'm having a hard time invisioning an acidental lock back during a reload. This product probably wasn't designed as a battery assist device, but for the shooter to use the paddle for release, like many of us prefer.
Precisely. :D
Wayland.
Short answer: No.
Long answer:
If you're doing a reload on a dry gun (magazine empty), the bolt will have already locked back. This invention can only activate the bolt catch, it does not act as a bolt release in any way. Thus you will not accidentally release the bolt. In fact, by strongly depressing the magazine catch, you would be ensuring the bolt catch is fully activated, thus reducing the likelihood of accidental bolt release.
If you're doing a reload during a lull in the fight, on a partial magazine, the firearm will have a loaded chamber and will be bolt forward. In this case, it is not possible to activate or release the bolt catch at all, so no such accident is possible.
Thank you for your interest.
Wayland.
Gotcha, misunderstanding on my part.
What I mean is if I run out of rounds, the bolt is back. I hit the mag release, but hit it too hard. The mag drops and the bolt goes forward. When I re-insert the fresh mag, I have to use the charging handle instead of just activating the bolt catch.
It doesnt appear that this part can release the bolt, it just locks it back. So no worries, in your case.
Belmont31R
11-07-10, 00:26
What I mean is if I run out of rounds, the bolt is back. I hit the mag release, but hit it too hard. The mag drops and the bolt goes forward. When I re-insert the fresh mag, I have to use the charging handle instead of just activating the bolt catch.
No. Based on the pics the device pushes the paddle out which is to activate the bolt catch. To activate the bolt release you have to push it in. This device does not push in thus it will not release the bolt.
Since the bolt catch, on a bolt locked to the rear, is already engaged its not going to do anything.
JBecker 72
11-07-10, 00:29
good luck.
this looks pretty cool.
Wow, I'm impressed. Nice piece of equiptment.
-Joe
ChicagoTex
11-07-10, 01:58
Not sure why anyone would want to run a BAD along with this.
BAD Lets you drop the bolt with your trigger finger. For right-handers that's not that big a deal (I personally have no problem hitting the ping pong paddle with my thumb after seating the magazine, but I have large hands) but some have come to like it.
Oh, and you could lock the bolt to the rear with your trigger finger without dropping the magazine using a BAD, but I have no idea why you would...
This product does, however, look like it just might be BAD compatible.
Either way this is one of those things that's kick-yourself-once-you-realize-it simple that's actually pretty freaking innovative and doesn't appear to have any real downside. It also has the added bonus of not hindering the bolt-catch in any way the way the BAD sometimes does.
Screw it, I think I'm (pre)sold on this thing.
I could see a huge application for this integrated with the KAC SR15IWS lower - since the right side bolt control only functions as a release, this would make it a truly ambi system in every aspect.
While it's a nice product, I initially thought it automatically ejected the magazine after the last round.
;)
While it's a nice product, I initially thought it automatically ejected the magazine after the last round.
;)
That'd be a great way to let Haji know you're out. ;)
As much as I love the Garand, that's one feature I think we all can live without. :D
Wayland.
Good to see innovation coming out of my home town of SA.
Send some out to the industry leaders and pros on the site and get some real world no bs feedback. Let the chips fall as they may so to speak.
Keep it up and make us proud.
SkyLine out.
SWATcop556
11-07-10, 09:21
Always nice to see people thinking outside the box. It's what keeps the industry moving forward.
Interesting. Keep us updated.
This looks like a cool idea. I'd love to give one a try.
Looks interesting. I wish you the best.
This looks very innovative. :cool: I would be very interested in purchasing one once they're in production. Keep us all updated!
CaptainDooley
11-07-10, 13:47
Cool idea, but it seems it would preclude the use of an ambi mag release - so us lefties are SOL on the "drop the mag and lock the bolt back at the same time" love. Think there's a way to combine this idea into an ambi mag release?
NeoNeanderthal
11-07-10, 15:03
If you want to sell a lot of these things, send a few to magpul and have travis and chris review/test them. If they post that they like it on this forum.... i guarantee you wont be able to make them fast enough. Look at Raven Holsters.
Quiet-Matt
11-07-10, 15:12
I like it. Keep us updated on your progress.:big_boss:
ChicagoTex
11-07-10, 16:52
If you want to sell a lot of these things, send a few to magpul and have travis and chris review/test them. If they post that they like it on this forum.... i guarantee you wont be able to make them fast enough. Look at Raven Holsters.
I vividly remember Raven, as well as Surefire, KAC, and countless other companies Chris and Travis like as being quite big and popular long before Chris and Travis were endorsing them.
Stuff doesn't sell well because Magpul D likes it, stuff sells well because it's good stuff, and Magpul D likes good stuff.
wish I would have come up with that idea :D
Thank you all for your words of support. :)
Cool idea, but it seems it would preclude the use of an ambi mag release - so us lefties are SOL on the "drop the mag and lock the bolt back at the same time" love. Think there's a way to combine this idea into an ambi mag release?
My brother is a lefty... We've given this some thought. ;)
Wayland.
Any idea on when they might be available, or how to possibly get in line to buy one? (assuming the price is reasonable)
Any idea on when they might be available,
As soon as we finish the first production lot, and test them to our satisfaction for use on combat weapons. :)
The gears are turning for the first step of the production process, so we expect our first batch of low-rate production to be completed before long. We'll then put that batch through testing, and once we're satisfied that they're 100% good to go, we'll release them on the market.
I would hate to give a guesstimate and then disappoint, as so many in the industry unintentionally do. Right now, there are many variables that could delay or lengthen the production process, so I cannot make an honest estimate. As soon as we have a reasonably accurate timetable, I will post it here.
or how to possibly get in line to buy one? (assuming the price is reasonable)
We haven't really considered a waiting-list for the first lot. I'll discuss it with my brother.
Wayland.
Looks like this would definitely be worth a shot.
Cool idea, but it seems it would preclude the use of an ambi mag release - so us lefties are SOL on the "drop the mag and lock the bolt back at the same time" love. Think there's a way to combine this idea into an ambi mag release?
This would knock it out of the park for the lefties like my pops. Looks good. I hope you make it compatible with the BAD lever too. They would compliment each other very nice. Good Luck!
Good luck to you and your brother on this project. I'm looking forward to trying one out!
While I tend to stay away from anything non-standard like ambi controls and BAD lever type devices, Im quite impressed with this one. Nice and simple and it works.
Agree with the above poster that this would be most interesting on a KAC provided it's compatible.
Looks like a winner good luck.
In a type 3 stoppage isn't it usually difficult to pull the magazine out before locking the bolt back? I may be getting my steps backwards as to clearing a type 3, but in some cases where things are really compressed in the barrel extension considerable force is needed to rip out the magazine and if you tried to lock back the bolt first, well, you couldn't without using the standard bolt catch. I guess it has been awhile since I have done any clearance drills, but I could see how this device would make obsolete the process of locking the bolt back first. However, if the mag was so stuck that you had to lock the bolt back then you would have to revert to the old catch.
I guess I am a little skeptical, but I'm happy to be wrong and always glad to see what may be worthwhile innovations.
Magic_Salad0892
11-08-10, 07:44
I was thinking the same about the Knight's lower.
If this product passes T&E, I'll probably look into one.
What would happen if it broke inside the gun?
Would you not be able to actuate the magazine release?
In a type 3 stoppage isn't it usually difficult to pull the magazine out before locking the bolt back? I may be getting my steps backwards as to clearing a type 3, but in some cases where things are really compressed in the barrel extension considerable force is needed to rip out the magazine and if you tried to lock back the bolt first, well, you couldn't without using the standard bolt catch. I guess it has been awhile since I have done any clearance drills, but I could see how this device would make obsolete the process of locking the bolt back first. However, if the mag was so stuck that you had to lock the bolt back then you would have to revert to the old catch.
I guess I am a little skeptical, but I'm happy to be wrong and always glad to see what may be worthwhile innovations.
Here's how I would think you'd clear a doublefeed with this sytem.
Press magazine release button all the way in
Retract charging handle while holding button
Strip magazine if necessary
Rack, Rack, Rack
Hold magazine release while retracting charging handle
Finger Bang
Insert fresh magazine
Press bolt release
Those are pretty much the steps I envisioned, Rob. But I've seen some sticky malfunctions that necessitated locking the bolt back first because it was impossible to drop the stuck magazine. If this device didn't work you would have to revert to standard remedial procedures further complicating the steps to clearing the malfunction.
I guess I would just want to play with one a lot before I relied too heavily on it.
In my steps the bolt is locked back first.
Press magazine release button all the way in
Retract charging handle while holding button
At this point the bolt is locked to the rear. If the magazine hasn't fallen out on it's own you now have your left hand free to strip it from the gun.
notorious_ar15
11-08-10, 09:13
Wow, one of those "why didn't I think of that" kind of things!
What would happen if it broke inside the gun?
Would you not be able to actuate the magazine release?
In this embodiment, the entire part inside of the gun is basically the same as the standard magazine catch, but made from far superior materials. Thus, if this invention "broke inside the gun", the regular magazine catch probably would have broken with far less abuse.
Thank you for the interest. :)
Wayland.
In my steps the bolt is locked back first.
Press magazine release button all the way in
Retract charging handle while holding button
At this point the bolt is locked to the rear. If the magazine hasn't fallen out on it's own you now have your left hand free to strip it from the gun.
This is absolutely correct. :D
If obstruction from the stoppage retains the magazine in the weapon, nothing prevents the magazine catch from disengaging from the magazine. The magazine is generally retained in the weapon via an obstruction in contact with the feed lips.
Thus, you fully depress and hold the magazine release, the magazine catch disengages from the magazine, and pressure is applied to the bolt catch. You pull the charging handle to the rear with your weak (left) hand until the bolt catch can engage. You would now push the charging handle back forward until it locks, and use your weak (left) hand to strip the magazine and continue the remedial action drill.
Thanks for helping clear that up :D.
Wayland.
Pretty slick. Simple, straight forward. I like it. Can't wait to see more info on this as it develops.
This is absolutely correct. :D
If obstruction from the stoppage retains the magazine in the weapon, nothing prevents the magazine catch from disengaging from the magazine. The magazine is generally retained in the weapon via an obstruction in contact with the feed lips.
Thus, you fully depress and hold the magazine release, the magazine catch disengages from the magazine, and pressure is applied to the bolt catch. You pull the charging handle to the rear with your weak (left) hand until the bolt catch can engage. You would now push the charging handle back forward until it locks, and use your weak (left) hand to strip the magazine and continue the remedial action drill.
Thanks for helping clear that up :D.
Wayland.
This is actually what I think this product would be most useful for. I don't lock the bolt open manually during firing unless there is a malfunction to clear. This would allow me to do so without manipulating the charging handle with my right hand and should simplify and speed things up.
As a bonus, if you do your old clearance drill under stress, everything still works normally. The more I think about it, the more I like it.
Very nice to see such a simple idea with a very real benefit.
Magic_Salad0892
11-08-10, 11:20
Thanks for the response.
I actually thought this was specifically for clearing magazine related (most) malfunctions when I watched the video. That and I like ambidextrous function.
I'm pretty sold on it, I'm dying to see the production model.
Thank you all for your words of support. :)
My brother is a lefty... We've given this some thought. ;)
Wayland.
I'll be looking forward to this in a lefty model too ;)
Thank you all for your support again. :)
First post edited with a better explanation of what this invention does, and what it does not do.
Wayland.
Bulldog1967
11-09-10, 07:26
That right there is sweet.
Very nice. I look forward to seeing the final production of this. I think I'm sold, I just have to try innovative products like this. Keep up the forward thinking, it's refreshing to see.
My brother and I have a question for the community. We're working hard on the first low rate production lot, and we're at the point we need to make a decision on what finish to use. The part will be made from stainless steel, and there are a lot of good choices for finishing. What suggestions do you have? What would you like to see?
Wayland.
Whatever you use, make it black/gray, deffinitely black/gray. Whatever finishing process that Battle comp (BCE) uses on their stainless comps is nice.
ChicagoTex
11-14-10, 21:48
Whatever you use, make it black/gray, deffinitely black/gray.
That's pretty much my only requirement.
I would make it in black too.
That's pretty much my only requirement.
Me three...
Dionysusigma
11-15-10, 22:57
Can't parkerize stainless steel, if I remember right.
My vote also goes for "AR lower" dark gray.
Interest piqued. PM sent.
I look forward to this product and putting it through it's paces. Please let us know if it is compatible with KAC and BAD. Thanks for your great idea.
O
Wayland,
do you have a website or something so I can stay informed as to when these may be available?
thanks
SMC527
PatrolRifleGroup
12-08-10, 21:42
I've never been that interested in the B.A.D. lever, but I'd definitely like to T&E one of these. Not quite sold on the name, maybe call it the "S.L.A.M.R. Latch":
S-simultaneous
L-lock
A-and
M-magazine
R-release
Best I could come up with in five minutes.
RedHorseman
12-08-10, 23:14
It's nice to see a well thought-out, innovative, function-first product versus the marketing and hype that typically comes out of the firearms industry. Best of luck to you guys.
I'm intrigued. Maybe it's the countless hours of sorting through weapon parts and trying to distinguish M16A2 from M4 etc. this week, but I would really like to examine the design of the unit. I don't jump on many things new and improved, but I've seen the upgrades even Colt has made and wondered, "how the hell did they come up with that."
I think this is a bad idea. Using one control device for 2 applications is not good for a high stress sitution. I understand many of you may will say its all in the training. Well that may be true but I would not welcome something that is this much different tactically unless it is a wholesale change on 90% of the M4/AR rifles.
Even still I think for high stress having different control devices is better.
I think this is a bad idea. Using one control device for 2 applications is not good for a high stress sitution. I understand many of you may will say its all in the training. Well that may be true but I would not welcome something that is this much different tactically unless it is a wholesale change on 90% of the M4/AR rifles.
Even still I think for high stress having different control devices is better.
The other controls are still there and still work. If someone picks up your carbine with this device and doesn’t know about it, everything still works. If under stress you revert to your "old way" of doing things, everything still works.
And, with the way this is implemented you wont inadvertently do one thing while trying to do another.
The other controls are still there and still work. If someone picks up your carbine with this device and doesn’t know about it, everything still works. If under stress you revert to your "old way" of doing things, everything still works.
And, with the way this is implemented you wont inadvertently do one thing while trying to do another.
Noted I just think in stress any revert will be confused by muscle memory brought on by any new device transition and the training involved for it.
If this was a product that did not incorperate its function to anouther device with a different function it would not matter as much IMO. This is why the BAD lever, Ambi selectors and like cause little to no harm under stress because the part no matter how modifed still has the same SOLE function AND its original form is kept intact.
Hard controls dedicated for a certain function is the only way to do control devices for combat, competition and defense IMHO.
Its a niche (specialized control device) within a niche (improved controls) within a niche (non std ARs).
Noted I just think in stress any revert will be confused by muscle memory brought on by any new device transition and the training involved for it.
If this was a product that did not incorperate its function to anouther device with a different function it would not matter as much IMO. This is why the BAD lever, Ambi selectors and like cause little to no harm under stress because the part no matter how modifed still has the same SOLE function AND its original form is kept intact.
Hard controls dedicated for a certain function is the only way to do control devices for combat, competition and defense IMHO.
Its a niche (specialized control device) within a niche (improved controls) within a niche (non std ARs).
The only times I can think of when this would present a problem would be when you want to lock the bolt open without dropping the magazine or trying to lock the bolt open on a standard AR after getting used to using this device.
While I know you can still manipulate the hold open in the traditional manner if you train to do it with the mag release that is what you'll default to under stress. That said, I can't think of when I would want to lock the gun open but leave the magazine in. At least not during a tactical situation.
The other problem would be more significant. If you work at a Police department and don't always have the same rifle (a practice I denounce but it still happens at many departments) then you would have to modify all the rifles or none of them. For private owners it isn't a major problem if you own 1 or 2 AR's but the cost of doing a dozen might be a bit steep.
Regardless, I like the idea. This addresses the single most problematic, least ergonomic aspect of manipulating an AR15. With traditional controls you cannot lock the bolt open without removing your firing hand from the pistol grip to work the charging handle. For this reason I think I'll give one of these a try when they become available.
Yeah, me too. I've been holding off on any other kind of BAD lever or device because I don't like the thing hanging down into the trigger guard. This is something I would purchase.
I'm thinking tolerance stacking issues. But IDK because I had to ask LOL
Hunter Rose
02-17-11, 10:26
Very interesting. Any updates on development/manufacture/release dates?
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
02-28-11, 01:22
Very interesting. Any updates on development/manufacture/release dates?
Hello M4C,
James here, co-inventor of this device. Thank you for all your support and interest. My brother (Wayland) and I look forward to equipping servicemen, law enforcement, and civilian shooters very soon :D
ETA 4-6 weeks on this device.
ChicagoTex
02-28-11, 01:34
ETA 4-6 weeks on this device.
Outstanding. Any details on the production variant? Carbon or Stainless steel? Finish options? Price?
Thanks in advance, looking forward to this one.
Based on the fact that it sits behind the ping pong paddle of the bolt release, I doubt that it will be compatible with BADs. This restricts it to use on KACs, POFs, etc., for those right-handers who prefer a bolt release that is operable with the trigger finger.
I also am fairly certain that it will not be compatible with Redi-Mags, for anyone who cares about those.
If someone would simply CNC up a replacement bolt release with an incorporated BAD lever, that would be lovely. Stronger and compatible with this "FCD."
If someone would simply CNC up a replacement bolt release with an incorporated BAD lever, that would be lovely. Stronger and compatible with this "FCD."
You mean like the Phase 5?
http://www.phase5tactical.com/products/ar15-m16/ebrv2-
It's discussed somewhat in this thread.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=74689&highlight=phase
In the vid, at about 0:47, what's keeping the bolt from going all the way into battery?
foxtrot_uniform
02-28-11, 10:16
This is a great idea.
I would like to buy at least one of these when they are available.
You mean like the Phase 5?
http://www.phase5tactical.com/products/ar15-m16/ebrv2-
It's discussed somewhat in this thread.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=74689&highlight=phase
Interesting, thanks for the link. I had heard of them, but I thought they were just another screw-on lever.
Interesting, thanks for the link. I had heard of them, but I thought they were just another screw-on lever.
No problem. I still don't know if the parts would be compatible or not. If you go to the thread I posted a link for, you'll see on page 2 (I think) that the lever is tig welded to a standard bolt catch.
maybe i missed it, but why stainless steel? that limits your finishing options to expensive PVD finishes or black oxide, which isn't the most durable of finishes.
i know stainless casts well, but i think if you went with a softer chromoly, you could get about the same casting strength AND be able to parkerize it like all the other parts in a traditional lower parts kit. cheap and good- a combination that should never be ignored.
probably too late, but that's my thinking.
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
02-28-11, 17:47
In regards to material choice and finishes...
Material:
Through hardened 410 stainless steel.
Finish:
Bead blasted stainless steel finish as "standard", with black and tan optional.
The reasoning behind our choice of 410 is primarily the hardening process. The device will be through hardened, and the ability to air cool stainless steel has its advantages.
...when you add to that the fact that 410 is also very durable and corrosion resistant... it becomes an excellent choice for this application.
For those who do not desire the bead blasted stainless steel finish, the device will also be offered with a durable baked on painted finish (over the stainless), for now, we plan on offering black and tan.
M4C, please advise as to any other finish colors you would like :D
Edited to add...
BKB0000,
The device will be machined and hardened from 410 stainless sheet, not cast or MIM...
The Cat,
I intentionally induced the malfunction by attempting to chamber a very...very... dented cartridge.
Again, thank you for your consideration :D
I see my brother beat me to posting an update.
I'd like to apologize for this project taking so long, but my brother and I have had very strict requirements for the production version of this device, which has caused significant delay. But we'd rather wait to release a product we have full faith in than release a lesser product quickly.
The materials choice has been made as a result of testing various materials and production processes.
If you have questions feel free to ask. Thanks for your consideration.
Wayland.
CaptainDooley
03-01-11, 07:02
Have you guys made any headway on an ambi mag release version?
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
03-01-11, 16:43
Have you guys made any headway on an ambi mag release version?
An ambidextrous mag release version is planned... and is a high priority... but no ETA at the moment.
I am a lefty shooter, and can say that the device, in it's current configuration, works very well for lefty shooters who do not prefer an ambidextrous mag release...
Also... please note a number of free samples :D will be provided for selected shooters/ trainers...if you have credentials... and are interested in receiving a sample device please send me an IM stating said credentials. Please understand we cannot pass them out like candy, hence the need for creds.
Thank you for your interest and input M4C. We at "A REV" look forward to both outfitting the members here and supporting this great forum :D
Take care,
James
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
03-20-11, 10:11
More T&E samples available :D; see above and shoot me a PM.
Kruggy5.56
03-20-11, 14:23
Very cool concept, I also would be interested in one when available.
would this work with mega or POF lower that has the ambi bolt release?
bsmith_shoot
05-04-11, 21:28
I wish I would have seen this earlier, I got a class this weekend. I want one, PM me with an address and a price. I will run the crap out of it, and give you my opinion on it in depth.
Thanks,
Brandon
CaptainDooley
05-05-11, 20:04
Since I'm just an average Joe without credentials and my next class isn't until October... when will these be for sale? I'm definitely liking the thought of this over a BAD-type lever...
CaptainDooley
05-05-11, 20:08
In regards to material choice and finishes...
Material:
Through hardened 410 stainless steel.
Finish:
Bead blasted stainless steel finish as "standard", with black and tan optional.
The reasoning behind our choice of 410 is primarily the hardening process. The device will be through hardened, and the ability to air cool stainless steel has its advantages.
...when you add to that the fact that 410 is also very durable and corrosion resistant... it becomes an excellent choice for this application.
For those who do not desire the bead blasted stainless steel finish, the device will also be offered with a durable baked on painted finish (over the stainless), for now, we plan on offering black and tan.
M4C, please advise as to any other finish colors you would like :D
Didn't see a lot of response on this, and wanted to throw in my .02 - Tan and black are perfect for my ARs... Though I have been thinking of more of a foliage green for my next experiment with rattle cans...
another "regular guy" here who is very interested in purchasing one of these as soon as they become available......
Please PM me if you are selling items for T&E.
thanks
That's a pretty good idea!
The more I see this, the more I like it.
Add me to the list of FNG members that would be interested in one. Thank you
It makes the BAD lever look like a retarded step child.
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
06-14-11, 21:14
Group,
Sorry for being away from M4C...
Concerning the "Firearm Control Device"...parts are machined and awaiting finishing... Lord willing... I will have these out within one week.
When finished, the parts will be shipped out to the T&E volunteers ASAP for feedback... then for sale to the public.
BTW... MODERATORS... who do I talk to about site sponsorship... dealer status... etc?
Kind Regards,
CaptainDooley
06-14-11, 21:17
Any idea on price?
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
06-14-11, 21:24
Any idea on price?
Price TBD... it will be affordable ;)
Quiet-Matt
06-14-11, 21:26
Welcome back James. Got worried that something happened to you guys.
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
06-14-11, 21:58
Reposted from bottom of page 6
Group,
Sorry for being away from M4C...
Concerning the "Firearm Control Device"...parts are machined and awaiting finishing... Lord willing... I will have these out within one week.
When finished, the parts will be shipped out to the T&E volunteers ASAP for feedback... then for sale to the public.
BTW... MODERATORS... who do I talk to about site sponsorship... dealer status... etc?
Kind Regards,
BTW... non-finished production part... made for my own testing... seen below.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-uwO8nqqalwQ/Tfgfsq2_F1I/AAAAAAAAAb8/Rq3SrdD4pfY/s800/pic.jpg
That KNS nonsense has to go... just for ya'lls credibility. ;)
You don't want potential customers associating your product with KNS foolishness. Just my $0.02.
ChicagoTex
06-14-11, 22:42
That KNS nonsense has to go... just for ya'lls credibility.
You don't want potential customers associating your product with KNS foolishness. Just my $0.02.
Actually I think it's good that they're testing on a rig with KNS pins, lest they receive inevitable complaints for KNS pin users that their product doesn't work for them.
Like it or not, KNS pins are a common accessory...
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
06-14-11, 23:29
Actually I think it's good that they're testing on a rig with KNS pins, lest they receive inevitable complaints for KNS pin users that their product doesn't work for them.
Like it or not, KNS pins are a common accessory...
The KNS pins were initially installed for test fitting (KNS pins fit well with the FCD). While it is true that aftermarket pins are not necessary... I do like them alot :D
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
06-16-11, 17:53
Welcome back James. Got worried that something happened to you guys.
Glad to be back... :D
Sweet, looking forward to this product
Seriously what is the deal with KNS pins? Why does everyone blast them? Does it reduce the reliability of the gun? I am truly wanting to know...not to start an argument here...
Also, if you need/want another T&Eer, I will gladly volunteer :D. Looks like a great product!
Seriously what is the deal with KNS pins? Why does everyone blast them? Does it reduce the reliability of the gun? I am truly wanting to know...not to start an argument here...
Also, if you need/want another T&Eer, I will gladly volunteer :D. Looks like a great product!
They're a transfer device. Ie they transfer money out of your wallet.
They honestly serve no purpose as trigger and hammer pins DO NOT WALK unless they are installed improperly.
militarymoron
06-16-11, 20:35
KNS pins DO have their place. i agree that they're not needed for properly installed standard hammers/triggers into in-spec lowers. however, not everyone has standard triggers installed. both the timney and mccormick drop-in trigger groups do not rely on the hammer spring to retain the hammer pin. the mccormick has replacement pins with easily lost c-clips. the timney relies on set screws that push against the bottom of the lower to provide upwards tension on the pins. the KNS pins, when used with those two particular trigger modules ensure that the pins stay in place.
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
06-16-11, 20:54
... please get this thread back on topic...
Free FIREARM CONTROL DEVICE to the first person to get this thread back on subject :D
BTW... name of the product to be changed...
jonconsiglio
06-16-11, 21:00
Is the FCD in post 122 the final product? It appears different that the first images.
RevEng Firearm Control Device.
Wave of the future, don't leave home without it.
I'll take it in matte black please :)
EDIT:
Dammit, missed it by >that< much.
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
06-16-11, 21:11
Is the FCD in post 122 the final product? It appears different that the first images.
Yes... the image seen above is the final design...
However... the welding will be prettier and the part will be blackened or bead blasted.
CaptainDooley
06-16-11, 21:15
Yes - less on KNS pins, more on availability date and price! :D
Seriously though, it looks like the latest design moves it further from being able to incorporate an ambi mag release - is that still on the table for the future?
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
06-16-11, 21:16
Yes - less on KNS pins, more on availability date and price! :D
Seriously though, it looks like the latest design moves it further from being able to incorporate an ambi mag release - is that still on the table for the future?
An AMBI version is high on my to do list... that said... my to do list is expansive
However, I don't expect a design problem with implimenting ambi...
Cool idea, but it seems it would preclude the use of an ambi mag release - so us lefties are SOL on the "drop the mag and lock the bolt back at the same time" love. Think there's a way to combine this idea into an ambi mag release?
D: sucha shame
Query:
If there is a problem with the FCD being overly 'sensitive' to the mag release button press, say it over stresses/over travels on the bolt catch paddle or engages the catch too soon/too late for an operators taste, it'll still tune & tailor the old fashioned way by adjusting the mag relase button a turn or two in either direction, correct?
I mean it looks like that would be the way to do it w/o bending or other primitive means, but thought I'd ask just to be sure.
jonconsiglio
06-17-11, 14:05
I'll be posting a review on this after putting it through it's paces. Looking forward to having it in hand.
Jonathan
Thank you A REVELATION ENGINEERING.
NeoNeanderthal
06-17-11, 16:41
eagerly awaiting this...
I can't wait until they're available. :sad:
Very cool product. Anything that keeps your trigger finger near the trigger is a bonus. You've taken the least ergonomic part of handling an AR and turned it into a smooth operation. Nice work!
I think that this is a great idea, but the name simply sucks. I vote for SLAMR (mentioned a page or two back)
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
06-18-11, 00:07
I think that this is a great idea, but the name simply sucks. I vote for SLAMR (mentioned a page or two back)
The name of the device will be changed.
That said... it will not be an acronym... A REV company policy
M.R.B.I.L.L. ('Mister Bill')
Mag release, bolt *interacting lock lever.
(*interactive? either are grammatically correct, but one might sound better to the ear)
I.D.M.L.B.M.
Incorporated drop magazine/lock bolt mechanism
T.F.C.T.
That *****ing cool thing
(*or for the polite set: freakin', friggin', far~out, funky)
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
06-23-11, 23:17
M.R.B.I.L.L. ('Mister Bill')
Mag release, bolt *interacting lock lever.
(*interactive? either are grammatically correct, but one might sound better to the ear)
I.D.M.L.B.M.
Incorporated drop magazine/lock bolt mechanism
T.F.C.T.
That *****ing cool thing
(*or for the polite set: freakin', friggin', far~out, funky)
Keep them coming... find me one for T.A.C.T.I.C.A.L. and we have a winner :D
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
06-23-11, 23:21
Query:
If there is a problem with the FCD being overly 'sensitive' to the mag release button press, say it over stresses/over travels on the bolt catch paddle or engages the catch too soon/too late for an operators taste, it'll still tune & tailor the old fashioned way by adjusting the mag relase button a turn or two in either direction, correct?
I mean it looks like that would be the way to do it w/o bending or other primitive means, but thought I'd ask just to be sure.
No adjusting necessary... you can install the {insert name here} device in the same manner as the standard magazine catch.:D
T.A.C.T.I.C.A.L.
Twin Action Controller Trigger~finger Initiated Combination Accessory Latch
The Advanced Combat Twin Integrated Catch Action Lever
More vague 'also rans':
The Active Camming That Integrates Controlling Accessory Latches
Tandem Actions Caused Through Independant Co~Assigned Levers
The Accessory Co~used To Include Catch, Assess and Load
Quiet-Matt
06-24-11, 05:06
The name of the device will be changed.
That said... it will not be an acronym... A REV company policy
Instad of going against company policy, especially by using a word that has been way overused like tactical; why not give it a name that encompasses what it really is to you and keep it simple. Such as... "Rev Device" or "Revelation Device". It's succint and a bit more professional in my opinion. Just my two cents on the matter.
Just call it a Mag and Bolt Lock, or MABL for short.
Or Mag Release, Bolt Lock or MARBL for short. After all, it's a MARBLous invention
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
07-06-11, 21:24
Just need to be heat treated and finished... :D
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-g3Jr_yYPejY/ThUYUfer5pI/AAAAAAAAAcU/-CgtXlKTcw0/s144/IMG_0030.JPG
CaptainDooley
07-06-11, 21:36
Tease.
Have you tested to see if this will work with the BADD lever from Magpul?
Have you tested to see if this will work with the BADD lever from Magpul?
I see very little reason to run a BAD lever in conjunction with one of these devices
What was the reason for the design change from the original prototype in the video? The prototype seemed more robust and compact than the final design, in my opinion.
By the way, "Remedial Action Assist" or "Remedial Action Assist Device".
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
07-06-11, 23:18
What was the reason for the design change from the original prototype in the video? The prototype seemed more robust and compact than the final design, in my opinion.
By the way, "Remedial Action Assist" or "Remedial Action Assist Device".
The redesign is an improvement over that shown on the video.
The design change was primarily such that debris (however rare) cannot get stuck between the "arm" and firearm's receiver to cause a malfunction (in theory).... now it will simply fall through... I designed the device for use in warfighting rifles and every angle had to be considered...
A secondary function of the redesign is bettering the fit on various loose tolerance receivers.
Kind Regards,
eternal24k
07-07-11, 12:15
I love how i wont have to replace all of my lowers, just a part :)
I see very little reason to run a BAD lever in conjunction with one of these devices
I like to use the BAD lever to drop my bolt. From the way this looks, there is not way to drop the bolt other than with the left hand. Correct me if I am wrong.
I like to use the BAD lever to drop my bolt. From the way this looks, there is not way to drop the bolt other than with the left hand. Correct me if I am wrong.
I always saw the BAD lever as useful for locking the bolt back to aid in malfunction clearance, not for dropping the bolt.
So this still isn't in production yet?
Maybe there was no market.
So this still isn't in production yet?
Read the thread. One page ago, post 152, they showed a picture and said they just needed to be heat-treated and re-finished. Though I don't think they are in full-on production yet, at least they haven't stated so
Maybe there was no market.
Once again, read the thread. It's still in R&D phase. Why bother posting in a thread that you obviously haven't read?
if heat treat screws the pooch, just get them done by FNC, FERRITIC NITROCARBURIZED, great hardness with zero warping. Pay by batch about 160 bucks for up to 120 pounds.
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
07-09-11, 00:56
if heat treat screws the pooch, just get them done by FNC, FERRITIC NITROCARBURIZED, great hardness with zero warping. Pay by batch about 160 bucks for up to 120 pounds.
While I do not forsee an issue with heat treatment of the 410 stainless... I will be researching the process.
Forgot to add, another major reason why the arm was moved to the rear is that most shooters access the bolt catch from the front, thus making it more "out of sight, out of mind" until it's function is needed.
Kind Regards,
PS I look to be sending out the "T&E" samples within 10 business days :D
Good news. Looking forward to it.
Read the thread. One page ago, post 152, they showed a picture and said they just needed to be heat-treated and re-finished. Though I don't think they are in full-on production yet, at least they haven't stated so
Once again, read the thread. It's still in R&D phase. Why bother posting in a thread that you obviously haven't read?
I read like 6 pages of it and the and got onto other stuff. I am reading a lot of stuff and didn't want to spend all of my time reading page after page of stuff searching for a link.
PS I look to be sending out the "T&E" samples within 10 business days :D
Can't wait to try it out! Appears to be the answer to my only complaints with the AR platform.
Are the T&E versions ambi, or is that still a work in progress awaiting broader input on the initial design first in case there are some subtle tweaks needed?
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
07-10-11, 17:19
Are the T&E versions ambi, or is that still a work in progress awaiting broader input on the initial design first in case there are some subtle tweaks needed?
The first batch will not have an ambi version...
An ambi version of the device is on my "to do" list... but our list is getting very long... no ETA ambi...
Preciate the information.
It's no problem for me, but I've already got like 3 other people drueling over ambi versions when they come out after seeing the vid of the RH version :)
deadlyfire
07-10-11, 18:30
regardless of the practical usage of this item, innovation and creativity is great to see, especially from the little guy.
Having a little experience in patenting myself, here are my observations.
First, there is the phenomenon of what is called parallel development. This means that two or more could be working on the same concept even though they have never even heard of the other. This has happened more than once. Tokarev and Saive are a for instance. (Russian Tokarev rifle and Belgian FAL)
Secondly, both are at the mercy of the patent examiners. I've experienced some very arbitrary processes here. Until the actual patent is granted to one or the other, both have equal rights to their ideas. And the actual patent process can take years. Of course they could each get a patent, and the patents could possibly give each the right to prevent others from making their unique design.
As is often the case in many other issues, the patent attorneys sometimes come out the real winners!
This post was in response to one that is now deleted.
Having a little experience in patenting myself, here are my observations.
First, there is the phenomenon of what is called parallel development. This means that two or more could be working on the same concept even though they have never even heard of the other. This has happened more than once. Tokarev and Saive are a for instance. (Russian Tokarev rifle and Belgian FAL)
Secondly, both are at the mercy of the patent examiners. I've experienced some very arbitrary processes here. Until the actual patent is granted to one or the other, both have equal rights to their ideas. And the actual patent process can take years. Of course they could each get a patent, and the patents could possibly give each the right to prevent others from making their unique design.
As is often the case in many other issues, the patent attorneys sometimes come out the real winners!
Amen to the lawyer thing
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
07-11-11, 18:57
Relax... everything is cool... :D
LEGAL MATTERS ARE FOR LAWYERS... or at least the parties involved...
Please keep LEGAL talk... the badmouthing of others products... etc.. OUT OF THIS THREAD... nuff said...
Kind Regards,
Awesome job, and hope to see these soon so I can buy one.
Watched the video, and I can't tell you how many times I had to awkwardly clear a malfunction while I was in. Glad to see someone tackled that with a practical solution.
And the no-ETA ambi device will be a huge hit when you pull it off.
Good luck with this. I'm looking forward to hearing the updates.
Joe Mamma
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
07-24-11, 21:56
Vid of reloading with the device...it's no different...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlPobODa2HA
Quick for a lefty on a RH gun ain't he.
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
07-25-11, 21:15
Concerning...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlPobODa2HA
Quick for a lefty on a RH gun ain't he.
I'm not a lefty :D
Just wanted to show that the device does not interfere with normal operation.
I can understand some confusion... but you can use your gun exactly as normal... like the device is not even there :D
Ya, I got the no interference with normal function part.
So its you, a righty working it lefty to better the camera view, and not the left handed brother?
That's even more impressive then. (I fall somewhere between 'spaz' and 'tragically humorous to watch' when trying that myself)
As a random aside, since no~one has asked and I'm sure there's more than one of us doing the pee~pee dance, and it was mentioned a couple weeks back:
Did the T&E versions find thier way out the door as expected?
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
07-25-11, 21:49
Ya, I got the no interference with normal function part.
So its you, a righty working it lefty to better the camera view, and not the left handed brother?
That's even more impressive then. (I fall somewhere between 'spaz' and 'tragically humorous to watch' when trying that myself)
As a random aside, since no~one has asked and I'm sure there's more than one of us doing the pee~pee dance, and it was mentioned a couple weeks back:
Did the T&E versions find thier way out the door as expected?
Heat treatment took a week instead of overnight as promised... the parts "will" be finished this week... T&E samples to go out before anything.
Kind Regards,
Markasaurus
07-25-11, 23:07
It's a clever idea. except I'm just not sure just how much the functionality would be a giant leap improvement for me.
Sure i have had FTF's in my Stag DI M4gery, but i have to use a "tool" to release the mag via the stupid Kalif, bullet button thus requiring an additional step in the process. If i need the bolt to lock back to clear a jam it is not much effort to reach with my hand to use the bolt release to lock the bolt open...
For people who live in normal states this might be a very useful device to have indeed. Just not sure what it would do for me.
T'would rather wait a week and have it right than overnight and wrong.
Still, if they contracted for overnight...
Ah well, what's done is done and as long as progress is being made it's not an all bad thing.
CaptainDooley
08-03-11, 18:47
Just checking in - have the T&E samples gone out? If so - has anyone reported back in?
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
08-04-11, 00:07
Just checking in - have the T&E samples gone out? If so - has anyone reported back in?
They have been heat treated... and should be done with blackening tomorrow... one of those "two day" that turns into "one week" deals... :rolleyes:
If they are done tomorrow... a number of T&E samples will be going out this weekend :D
I'll keep M4 posted =)
Kind Regards,
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
08-04-11, 18:19
T&E Samples sent to the following members, with more to go out soon...
-Gtifosi
-jonconsiglio
-NeoNeanderthal
-DaBigBR
-Dave M
Kind Regards,
Let the fun begin! Glad to see these heading into the wild. Can't wait to put it through it's paces.
O
Oooh, I think my pants just shrunk a size or two, nope, wait.
Its just a woody. Nevermind. :dance3:
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
08-07-11, 17:57
You guys that get the samples...
Follow these installation steps:
1) Clear firearm... by firing if at all possible :D
2) Remove upper.
(now if concerned about marring the finish, line the receiver with electrical tape)
3) With the rifle laying on right side, remove the bolt catch roll pin, punching from the rear to the front... keep the rifle on it's right side as to not lose the bolt catch spring and plunger... remove bolt catch.
4) With the rifle still laying on it's right side, remove the standard magazine catch.
5) With the rifle still laying on it's right side, install the FCD as you would a standerd magazine catch.
6) With the rifle still laying on it's right side, depress the "magazine release button"... then slide the bolt catch under the FCD.
(now if concerned about marring the finish, line the receiver with electrical tape)
7) With the rifle still laying on it's right side, install the bolt catch roll pin from the front to the rear.
Kind Regards,
6) With the rifle still laying on it's right side, depress the "magazine release button"... then slide the bolt catch under the FCD
Typo?
Up til now I thought the FCD went behind the bolt catch based on everything presented.
Glad to see this product developing. I cannot wait until they are available.
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
08-08-11, 06:33
Typo?
Up til now I thought the FCD went behind the bolt catch based on everything presented.
You have to press the mag release to get the bolt catch "in"... I was checking to see who's paying attention :D
I was checking to see who's paying attention :D
*tsk~tsk*
I suppose the bigger qustion would be 'can it be installed without removing the bolt catch assembly?', or would it be asking for too much flex of the FCD arm to weasle everything into place without binding, prying, scratching or potentially even breaking the device?
I've no issue with removing the bolt catch, and I'm sure there's many of other folks who don't either, but still there's going to be a lot of people out there who can't/won't/fear to.
I'm certain with an exchange of cash, barter or favors they could have it done for them, but it may be a turn off to some folks if they have to take something apart or have someone else do it for them.
jonconsiglio
08-08-11, 10:27
My thought is that if someone is afraid to remove the bolt catch then they most likely aren't going to see any real benefit from something like this device.
I'm not saying that one is not a real shooter if they can't remove the bolt catch, but I often see those two often reflecting each other.
If nothing else, you probably should learn some time anyway.
Edit - no offense is meant in any way by this post.
I will post back once the unit comes, thanks for sending it out.
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
08-08-11, 16:16
The bolt catch must be removed...
BTW, the first tester to install the device and post a pic gets a free gift :D ... and the horses are off...
Kind Regards,
jonconsiglio
08-08-11, 16:17
Mine came in a couple hours ago. I'm going to get it on soon and put some rounds through it. Looking forward to it. Thank you.
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
08-08-11, 16:43
We have a winner!
PM inbound
:D
jonconsiglio
08-08-11, 16:51
At rest
http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee343/jonconsiglio/05a8aadf.jpg
Engaged an works exactly as advertised. So far in my very limited experience, it seems like a solid product. Nice that it won't interfere with the bolt locking back on an empty mag like other products can.
http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee343/jonconsiglio/8d364b38.jpg
jonconsiglio
08-08-11, 17:41
http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee343/jonconsiglio/95ccdc0b.jpg
Bloody brilliant, isn't it.
Quiet-Matt
08-09-11, 04:59
James or Wayland,
Do you know when the remainder of the T&E samples will be sent out? :cray:
A REVELATION ENGINEERING
08-09-11, 15:51
James or Wayland,
Do you know when the remainder of the T&E samples will be sent out? :cray:
I will send out more T&E parts this Friday...:D
Squeeky wheel gets the grease ;)
Installed and used it on the range today. Should I post an initial review here or in a new thread?
jonconsiglio
08-09-11, 16:46
Was just thinking about that same thing.
Was just thinking about that same thing.
Since this thread is 11 pages long, why not have a new one for all of the T&E folks to add their experiences?
Quiet-Matt
08-09-11, 19:28
I will send out more T&E parts this Friday...:D
Squeeky wheel gets the grease ;)
Damn straight! Squuuuueeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek!;)
superstratjunky
08-09-11, 21:36
Since this thread is 11 pages long, why not have a new one for all of the T&E folks to add their experiences?
Please post a link.
I completely forgot about this. Good to see you guys are advancing!
BTW It looks like if I'd want to use the P5T with this, a modification will be in order. I'd want the P5T in order to release the bolt.
Please post a link.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=86711
I think I'm down for one of these when they become available.
steelonsteel
09-10-11, 10:35
So in essence this is an external version of what the AXTS A-DAC 15 lower does?
Theoretically, if there ever WERE a problem with this type of set up, the external device would be easier to service than an internal, and also could be easily removed. thoughts on that?
How about posting a website address with the Rev Eng signature or forum member info or in the thread here a bit?
I found it once but now that this product is close to being available y'all need to be easy to contact.
Quiet-Matt
09-10-11, 13:32
g5m,
Here's a link to their Web Page (http://areveng.com/#)
On there an e-mail address is listed for James, perhaps that might be a quicker route to reach him. james@areveng.com
-Matt
----------------
ChicagoTex
09-10-11, 16:54
So in essence this is an external version of what the AXTS A-DAC 15 lower does?
Theoretically, if there ever WERE a problem with this type of set up, the external device would be easier to service than an internal, and also could be easily removed. thoughts on that?
It's not clear if you're looking for thoughts specifically from A REV ENG or just generally, but my thinking is that the FCD is an all-around better device for two crucials reasons:
1. It is easily removed/replaced/serviced
2. It doesn't require another spring (the A-DAC uses a spring and detent)
In fairness though, there is a potential downside to the FCD's external nature - it theoretically makes it more vulnerable to damage from dropping, catching, being shot(!) etc. Whether or not that's a real concern will only bear out in testing, however.
So in essence this is an external version of what the AXTS A-DAC 15
Theoretically, if there ever WERE a problem with this type of set up, the external device would be easier to service than an internal, and also could be easily removed. thoughts on that?
As opposed to being a specific receiver from a specific manufacturer, the FCD has worked on all the different brand receivers its been tried on thus far.
Or at least no-one has come forward to say it didn't fit.
That alone makes it as effective as, but radically more cost effective than, a single manufacturers whole receiver using that manufacturers parts exclusively.
If I'm looking at the pricing right, it's roughly around 2 to 1 for the FCD vs the AXTS
it theoretically makes it more vulnerable to damage from dropping, catching, being shot(!) etc.
Dropping might be a thing if it hits just right, but I don't see catching on stuff to be an issue. There's just not that kind of pointy hanging protruding type corners or edges on it.
AFA being shot, the receiver would likely be ruined along with the device. Hell of a shot if it did take one right in the FCD though.
ChicagoTex
09-10-11, 21:41
Dropping might be a thing if it hits just right, but I don't see catching on stuff to be an issue. There's just not that kind of pointy hanging protruding type corners or edges on it.
AFA being shot, the receiver would likely be ruined along with the device. Hell of a shot if it did take one right in the FCD though.
To be clear, I wasn't so much expressing real concerns I have as just thinking of things that COULD potentially be downsides of the external design (which you and I seem to agree pale in comparison to the obvious benefits of cost/serviceability).
To put another way: I'm 75% sure I'll buy an FCD (a number that'll increase at least another 20% after third party testing is finished and results are as I expect them to be), I'm 95% sure I WON'T buy an AXTS.
snakedoctor
06-03-13, 00:26
Are the FCD's still available for purchase?
No. Website is gone. I heard, but cannot confirm, he was sued for some sort of patent infringement.
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