View Full Version : batteryless reflex sight reviews by tomac and lethal dose!
lethal dose
11-08-10, 00:36
Ok... I'm prepared to get bashed... that's ok, bash away. I'll start off by saying: no, this is not a replacement for your aimpoint... just a viable option that seems to get a lot of hate. I will also state that I am currently running the reflex on a shotgun, not a carbine... which really makes no difference for the intended purpose of this review.
I picked this sight up only because my curiosity has been peaked for years when it comes to the trijicon reflex sights. No, I'm not worried about an emp killing my aimpoint, or if I'll run out of batteries if the s ever h's t f, or if a mythical creature ascends from a castle in the clouds and creates some kind of solar flare with its powerful tail and renders my optic useless... I was just curious. Plain. Simple.
Ok... first order of business... WASHOUT! Ahhhhh! No! Not washout! Calm down... I have run the sight in every lighting condition that I have available... in order for this thing to "washout" I honestly have to try very hard and, beyond pointing it directly at the sun, I have yet to experience the reticle completely washing out. The worst man made lighting situation I came up with was in a pitch black room, surefire led glaring, and white walls. The reticle was still visible... even usable. Aiming from a dark room to bright outdoors gave me no effect of wash out at all. It certainly isn't as bright as being outdoors but, remember we're mostly relying on the tritium lamp at this point. As with any reticle, certain backgrounds that are close in color to the reticle tend to make it difficult to find. In my case, an amber triangle. I'm not trying to debunk any myth of wash out here, just saying that it is quite difficult to make happen. So difficult, actually, that I'm wondering if most of the people who experience this said wash out with their reflex sights have actually ever used one. Once again, yes it can wash out... but I REALLY had to work at making it do so. If using the reflex with a white light in a dark small room or aiming from a dark room to sunny outdoors doesn't do it, I can't think of too many other situations that will. If I ever plan on shooting the sun, I'll be sure to use my aimpoint. One downside I did notice, if the diode becomes occluded by an object, you will loose your reticle... this, however, is the case with all reflex sights. Oh... the polarizing filter does help if you feel the reticle is too dim... you can completely darken the glass making washout impossible... just like training with your aimpoint with the rubber bikini or lens cover on the front... as we all know... red dot sights can be occluded from the front and the sight is still functional.
The sight seems quite sturdy. W and E adjustments are noticeably click positive and are easily manipulated with the rim of a spent case. I've only put a few hundred rounds through the weapon so I can't say for certain how well it holds zero other then it hasn't moved for me and, given trijicon's reputation and the fact that I am running it on a 12 guage, I believe that is really not of major concern.
I do think the design is a bit dated, but not terribly. I wouldn't sell an aimpoint for one but I would most certainly prefer the reflex over an eotech (dated technology aside). I plan on mounting it on a carbine and putting it through it'd paces, but I have little concern that I'll be dissatisfied. I've run it on the shotgun in rain, sun, in wooded areas, and open fields... I've run dry fire drills indoors, outdoors, transitioning from indoors to outdoors, transitioning from outdoors to indoors, aimed from dark house to bright outdoors at hay, soybeans, grass, trees, sky, concrete, etc. Like I said, small room and surefire produced the most wash out but I still had a very usable reticle... and if one were to use the polarization filter, I can't see where it would be any concern.
It's not perfect but, like I said, it's quite usable, it's fun to shoot, the wash out isn't that scary, and that little yellow triangle is righteous. Anyone who would like to run it, I'm in n.e. Ohio and am always looking for a range buddy. Hit me up.
Anyhow, that's my little review. Let's hear some thoughts.
mkmckinley
11-08-10, 06:04
Good to see someone review the reflex. Ive played with the older design and it was pretty limited but I always wondere how the newer version stacks up. The fact that you dont need batteries is appealing.
Since we're talking tritium/fiber optic Reflex-style sights here, I hope you don't mind if I add info about the Trijicon RMR, Trijicon RX30 & Meprolight M21 that I'd already posted elsewhere for comparison (I'll remove this if you wish).
Tomac
Here's my "first impressions" comparison of the Meprolight M21, Trijicon RX30 & Trijicon RMR. All 3 use fiber optics & tritium for reticle illumination but have different sizes, weights, FOV's & reticle/dot sizes.
Trijicon RMR pros:
Light, small, more resistant to reticle washout than either the M21 or RX30.
Trijicon RMR cons:
Small FOV through the optic makes cheekweld much more critical than w/the M21 or RX30, largest dot (7moa) of the 3 makes precision shots more difficult, dot *really* blazes & blooms in bright daylight.
Trijicon RX30 pros:
Huge FOV through the 42mm objective makes for very fast shots & more forgiving cheekweld, slightly smaller dot (6.5moa, the RX34 has a 4.5mao dot) than the RMR allows for slightly greater precision.
Trijicon RX30 cons:
Like the RMR, the dot really blazes/blooms in bright daylight, 6.5moa dot isn't much of an improvement over the RMR's 7moa dot w/regards to precision shooting.
Meprolight M21 pros:
30mm objective is faster & more forgiving of sloppy cheekweld than the RMR but perhaps not quite as fast/forgiving as the RX30, bullseye reticle is very fast to pick up (especially in lighting situations where the reticle begins to dim) and 4.5moa center dot allows for greater precision than either the RX30 or RMR, factory QD mount is very fast/easy to use, W/E adjustments are definite w/good tactile/audible clicks (although a bit coarse at 1.7moa per click) & easily adjusted w/a quarter, feels more solid than the RX30 (subjective opinion only), forward optic collector significantly helps w/reticle contrast in challanging light conditions, has the brightest tritium of the 3 and (this is important to me, YMMV) the reticle does *not* blaze or bloom in direct sunlight, instead staying nice & bright at what I consider to be the near-perfect daytime brightness level.
Meprolight M21 cons:
Not as resistant to reticle washout as I'd prefer (sorry, it sux being a perfectionist).
I tested all 3 in the large darkened basement at my work, from 20' in looking out the open door into a corridor illuminated w/flourescent light, in a darkened bathroom looking out an 18"x36" East-facing window into noontime daylight, on a covered dock looking out at various targets in noontime daylight, in my dim home looking out a North-facing tramson into late-afternoon daylight and w/taclights in my completely dark garage.
The RMR is the most resistant to reticle washout (when I asked Trijicon about this they suggested it may be due to the emitter being so much closer to the lens than w/the larger/longer RX30) w/the M21 being slightly more resistant to reticle washout overall than the RX30 (due in larger part, IMHO, to the bullseye reticle & forward-facing fiber optic collectors) but the RX30 does seem to have better topside fiber optic collectors.
Personal take:
While I like the RMR's light weight & superior resistance to reticle washout I do *not* like the small FOV or the way the too-large dot blazes in bright daylight. The RMR is my least fav of the 3.
The RX30 is similar in many ways and performance-wise to the M21 but it doesn't strike me as being quite as well developed (ie: mount, ruggedness & W/E adjustments) and it suffers from the same "blazing daylight dot" as the RMR, it's a close 2nd to the M21.
I like just about everything about the M21 except for the susceptibility to reticle washout under certain lighting conditions (the bane of all Reflex-style optics). The bullseye reticle is a joy to use, being easier/faster to use than a simple dot (YMMV) but not as "busy" as the Eotech's circle/dot reticle and it doesn't blaze in bright daylight so you still have a crisp reticle. Definitely my first choice for my particular needs.
None of these optics are "Aimpoint killers" but all 3 are quality items w/differing strengths/weaknesses. If you want a KISS optic that doesn't need batteries then definitely check out the M21.
I'll be doing range-testing this weekend, I'll post more after that.
Tomac
ETA: Even running w/just your front sight up mitigates much of the reticle washout problem as the most serious occasions I've experienced have been while using a taclight at very close range where just the front sight is all you need for COM hits.
(From the top) Trijicon RMR, Meprolight M21, Trijicon RX30:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofMeprolightM21003.jpg
Meprolight M21 on one of my STG-556's:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofMeprolightM21001.jpg
Just got back from the range, couldn't stay as long as I wanted due to rain.
Anywho, here are some reticle shots of the RMR, RX30 & M21 all taken at the same time and the same place about 9:45am w/the sun up at my 4 o'clock but covered by heavy overcast:
RMR w/7moa dot:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofMeprolightM21ReticleShots004.jpg
RX30 w/6.5moa dot:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofMeprolightM21ReticleShots005.jpg
M21 w/4.5moa dot inside a 23moa circle:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofMeprolightM21ReticleShots015.jpg
I also tested where POI coincides w/the bottom of the M21's outer circle and it appears to be at appx 15yrds w/my setup (ie: at 15yrds I use the bottom of the outer circle as my POA.
Tomac
ETA: Due to my camera the blue tint shown on each optic is actually lighter that it looks in the pics, I've lightened this shot to show *the reticle only* to be as light as I remember:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofMeprolightM21ReticleShots015a.jpg
lethal dose
11-08-10, 11:33
Dude, thanks for the insight. I changed the thread title. Maybe we can get a good thread started, here. This can be quite informative.
I'll try to get reticle pics in different lighting conditions posted today.
It may be difficult to photograph but, I'd be interested in seeing how much the two Trijicons "blase and zoom" in bright light.
I'm also curious to see what kind of co-witness sight picture you get with the 3 tested and what other qd mounts may be available which will allow for the raising and lowering of the rds.
BTW, thanks for the great info, I've been curious about these style rds for a while as an alternative to my Eotech.
ICANHITHIMMAN
11-08-10, 17:18
So you reviewed the new one right? I saw pics but I think they where someone elses. I am very interested in this the old one didnt do it for me. I wish I could see a new one.
It may be difficult to photograph but, I'd be interested in seeing how much the two Trijicons "blase and zoom" in bright light.
I'm also curious to see what kind of co-witness sight picture you get with the 3 tested and what other qd mounts may be available which will allow for the raising and lowering of the rds.
BTW, thanks for the great info, I've been curious about these style rds for a while as an alternative to my Eotech.
I was planning exactly that ("blaze & bloom" reticle pics) but it was solid overcast that day and started raining so I'll have to do those pics later on when I have some bright daylight to work with.
W/both the RX30 (TA51 mount) & M21 you get a 1/3 cowitness but on the RX30 it looks like a 1/4 cowitness because of the huge 42mm objective. Haven't been able to check the cowitness w/the RMR as it's on the wife's rifle and she doesn't want BUIS (yet...;))
Tomac
lethal dose
11-08-10, 19:08
The model year of the reflex I reviewed is 2003. The reticles are insanely bright outdoors but maintain great clarity without fuzzing or getting that "comma" effect you get on an aimpoint if you have astigmatism... and even though I have astigmatism, I still prefer aimpoint.
I was planning exactly that ("blaze & bloom" reticle pics) but it was solid overcast that day and started raining so I'll have to do those pics later on when I have some bright daylight to work with.
W/both the RX30 (TA51 mount) & M21 you get a 1/3 cowitness but on the RX30 it looks like a 1/4 cowitness because of the huge 42mm objective. Haven't been able to check the cowitness w/the RMR as it's on the wife's rifle and she doesn't want BUIS (yet...;))
Tomac
I look forward to your pics and any other info you guys add. Thanks again! Great job!
Do either of you guys have an astigmatism?
Do either of you guys have an astigmatism?
I have very mild astigmatism. Eotechs, Trijicons & the M21 all look fine to me but Aimpoints can look just a little distorted at the right brightness (but that doesn't keep me from using them).
Tomac
lethal dose
11-09-10, 09:46
Do either of you guys have an astigmatism?
As stated in my above post, yes I do. What tomac says about trijicon and eotech is true. Aimpoint's reticle distorts... but I still prefer them over any rds manufacturer.
I absolutely love my RX30, I won't use another 1X optic again. Batteryless, solid, huge FOV, very difficult to washout, simple and easy to use. I couldn't be happier.
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p313/madcatjoe/Guns%20and%20Gear/IMG_20101026_172504.jpg
-Joe
Thanks for putting in the time and effort, you guys. I have been keenly interested in the RX30 since it was introduced, but have been reluctant because I have never found any solid pics or info as to what mount(s) will allow iron sight co-witness on an AR-15. The M21 seems to have been gaining quite a bit of popularity lately, so it was nice to read more about it here.
I know it is a lot to ask, but if you guys could throw the RX30 on an AR-type rifle just to demo how it co-witneses, that would be awesome. Actually, if you could do that for all of those units, I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one to appreciate your efforts. I realize it isn't a simple request, so if you don't get around to it, I won't hold it against y'all :).
I'll throw the pic request and request for written feedback out to masakari and his setup, as well. masakari, I can't tell by the pic - is that the RX11 Weaver mount, or is that the RX23 A.R.M.S #15 Throwlever mount?
My thanks in advance for the additional info. I have been waffling about a 1x RDS for a number of years now. I don't have a lot of $$ the throw at my hobby, so I am faced with a sort of 'The Highlander - There Can Be Only One' situation. As much as an Aimpoint seems to be a 100% no-brainer, the batteryless operation captivates me for some reason. Maybe I should just invest in a TriPower, and have it over with. ;)
Here are some bright daylight reticle shots from the RX30 & M21. Time was 9:20am at the exact same location as in the pics above (again, due to the camera, lens tints appear darker than they do to the human eye when using them).
In bright daylight the RX30's reticle appears to bloom to appx double it's normal 6.5moa size.
I don't have an AR to try them on (blasphemy!) but regardless of what rail you have you'll get the same cowitness as posted above. Rail height could affect cheekweld but cowitness will stay the same. HTH...
Tomac
M21:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/RotationofM21RX30DaylightReticlePics012crop.jpg
RX30:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/RotationofM21RX30DaylightReticlePics005crop.jpg
RX30 w/fiber optic collector covered to elminate blooming:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/RotationofM21RX30DaylightReticlePics008crop.jpg
Two cents on Trijicon:
There is something to be said for no batteries. The grab-and-go properties are not to be knocked.
In my perfect world all such optics would have AA battery back ups. Maybe something like the J-point automatic adjustment for lighting conditions with a manual override.
I love the 14 MOA chevron in the RX06. For CQC it gives the fighter a nice big 14 minute reticule. Yet, it still allows the rifleman to use the apex for accurate aimed fire. If you know how to use the ranging function it can be even more lethal. The legs of the chevrons can be used to apply lead for shooting at vehicles.
The RX06 does have a bit narrow FOV. I really wish they would put this reticule in the RX30.
I find 4 MOA dots to be too large to shoot 300m targets. Aimpoint changed to a 2 MOA for this reason. The 6.5 minute dot in the RX30 pretty much renders it a CQC only optic. The 4.5 minute dot is a bit better.
Washout is still a problem. It really is a problem when shooting from a lit room to an unlit room when illuminating the target with a white light - esp if the target is wearing a white shirt (like one of those plus sized homeboy white t-shirts or a Hadji mandress). Never the less, it is not a 'war stopper' but it must be recognized as limitation. If you are in a building and shooting outside, you will usually have time to pick up your faded reticule. If you are at close range and really can't find your reticule, just use your front sight post in the standard fashion and treat the RX housing like a large ghost ring. For CQC distances it will work just as fast as anything. Try it!
In the woods or the jungle at night, the Trijicon is awesome. If this is your back yard there may be no better optic.
Singlestack Wonder
11-11-10, 15:52
Here are some bright daylight reticle shots from the RX30 & M21. Time was 9:20am at the exact same location as in the pics above (again, due to the camera, lens tints appear darker than they do to the human eye when using them).
In bright daylight the RX30's reticle appears to bloom to appx double it's normal 6.5moa size.
I don't have an AR to try them on (blasphemy!) but regardless of what rail you have you'll get the same cowitness as posted above. Rail height could affect cheekweld but cowitness will stay the same. HTH...
Tomac
M21:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/RotationofM21RX30DaylightReticlePics012crop.jpg
RX30:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/RotationofM21RX30DaylightReticlePics005crop.jpg
RX30 w/fiber optic collector covered to elminate blooming:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/RotationofM21RX30DaylightReticlePics008crop.jpg
I find the M21's outer circle too thick to allow for better viewing of the target around the dot.
I find the M21's outer circle too thick to allow for better viewing of the target around the dot.
If you're referring to the pics I posted, the M21's reticle is very crisp even in bright sunlight and I had no problems w/it whatsoever (YMMV). Unfortunately much of that detail & crispness was lost due to my poor photography and when I reduced the pics to a size suitable for posting.
However, what you said is also true for the Eotech's circle-dot reticle; some like it and others don't, finding it too busy for their tastes. At least the M21 has a variety of reticles to choose from (triangle, open-X, bullseye, etc).
Tomac
Whoa, did not know the Meprolight has a triangle reticule. Anyone know the dimensions of the triangle? The website says '.3 MOA' but that can't be right. Are they just talking about the apex of the triangle? How wide is the base?
lethal dose
11-11-10, 19:49
Armati makes a good point- in a cqb scenario, most sights can be used as a ghost ring... given you're running absolute cowit (which I prefer). The rx06 is small and very easy to use as a ghost ring, just like my aimpoint micro.
Whoa, did not know the Meprolight has a triangle reticule. Anyone know the dimensions of the triangle? The website says '.3 MOA' but that can't be right. Are they just talking about the apex of the triangle? How wide is the base?
Supposedly there are two different size triangles, 9moa & 13moa measured across the base.
Tomac
Singlestack Wonder
11-12-10, 10:30
If you're referring to the pics I posted, the M21's reticle is very crisp even in bright sunlight and I had no problems w/it whatsoever (YMMV). Unfortunately much of that detail & crispness was lost due to my poor photography and when I reduced the pics to a size suitable for posting.
However, what you said is also true for the Eotech's circle-dot reticle; some like it and others don't, finding it too busy for their tastes. At least the M21 has a variety of reticles to choose from (triangle, open-X, bullseye, etc).
Tomac
I like a circle/dot reticule. I just find that the thickness of the circle on the M21 takes away from the overall view of the target. With a TA44SR-10 ACOG, the circle line is thin enough to make out details between it and the dot.
I like a circle/dot reticule. I just find that the thickness of the circle on the M21 takes away from the overall view of the target. With a TA44SR-10 ACOG, the circle line is thin enough to make out details between it and the dot.
Agreed. Without a doubt the M21 is a CQB optic (especially w/1.7moa adjustments), I can't see it being terribly effective at longer ranges even w/a magnifier.
Tomac
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