Wal-Mart firearms - "factory seconds"?

[Slater]

I've heard this over the years from various people. The latest was from a co-worker last week. We were discussing cheap hunting rifles and the purchase thereof. When the subject of Wal-Mart came up, his response was "Dude, never buy a gun there. They only sell guns that were rejected by the factory".

Now, I can't prove or disprove this (although I'm very doubtful). Wal-Mart is the largest retailer in the world. I'm not sure why Mossberg, Remington, Savage, etc. would want to risk their reputation (and possible lawsuits) by distributing substandard firearms. Maybe not defective enough to constitute a hazard, but possibly substandard fit & finish or the like.

Anyone else heard this?

[Hmac]

Walmart and others big box stores often get stripped down, no-frills versions, but the "factory rejects" bullshit is just that.

[BVickery]

Its a BS call.

I read somewhere, for example, that it will contract with say Marlin and produce X number of rifles for its store for the possible year. We are talking orders in the thousands, if not tens of thousands.

But its usually a no-frills version as was mentioned.

[TehLlama]

Like most sprawl mart items, they'll simplify their inventory by only carrying the volume model, not the fully featured ones.

[Iraqgunz]

My guess is that whoever said that has no brain cells. Can you imagine the liability that Walmart and the manufacturer would have if said "factory second" caused a death or injury and it could be proven that it was knowingly sold? I can and it probably wouldn't be pretty.

I could be wrong though.

[ucrt]

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Years ago I helped run a gun shop in South Louisiana that's Remington rep had La and Ark. So, he had the Wal-Mart (Ark)account, too. We asked him about that and he said it was bull.

He said that WM would come to him early in the year and order only the popular Model 700's like .243, .270 and 30-06, and 870's, etc. They didn't get into the exotic calibers just the ones that everyone knew about and that they knew could sell.

From what I've seen down here, I think most WM's now just serve as outlets for distributors. Basically their gun departments just do "consignment-type" gun sales for distributors. This way they get out of having to put money out, just get a percentage of the profits.

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[Spiffums]

If you go to the Ruger site and look at the 10/22 you will see about 10 million different distributor versions .. ok it's not 10 million but it's close LOL. Walmart just gets a big volume discount on stripped down models. I figure it mostly the My 1st Rifle crowd there anyways.

[John_Wayne777]

Wal-Mart buys guns like they buy anything else. They go to companies and negotiate a quantity and a price. Then the gun company produces the firearms.

Sometimes this leads to deals...sometimes it leads to gun companies cutting a few corners to get the guns down to the Wal-Mart prices.

[Hmac]

Wal-Mart buys guns like they buy anything else. They go to companies and negotiate a quantity and a price. Then the gun company produces the firearms.

Sometimes this leads to deals...sometimes it leads to gun companies cutting a few corners to get the guns down to the Wal-Mart prices.

Are you saying that those gun companies "cut corners" by decreasing quality (as in cheaper steel, stamped parts etc), or cut corners by eliminating frills like checkering?

[Byron]

Wal-Mart buys guns like they buy anything else. They go to companies and negotiate a quantity and a price. Then the gun company produces the firearms.

Sometimes this leads to deals...sometimes it leads to gun companies cutting a few corners to get the guns down to the Wal-Mart prices.
Well said.

A lot of major manufacturers these days are willing to take a hit on some of their products so long as it means getting their brand prominently displayed in Wal-Marts across the nation. Of course, Johnson & Johnson, for example, has many more products with much lower sticker prices than a firearms manufacturer. If they lose money on one of their lines of lotions, but make up for it with baby powder, they're probably willing to take that deal.

A firearm's manufacturer won't have as much wiggle room as a manufacturer of disposable goods would. Their choices will most likely be:


Only negotiate a price that is still profitable at their usual quality standards (a tough option given Wal-Mart's buying power)
Offer Wal-Mart an 'exclusive' version of an existing product under a slightly different model number. Not sure if any gun companies do this, but you'll see it with some other items in the store. In this case, exclusive generally just means a cheaper version.
Offer Wal-Mart a known model, but cut corners slightly (usually in the fit & finish department).


I have heard anecdotes that seem to confirm that the last option might sometimes happen with guns, but I've never heard any solid confirmation. Off the top of my head, I've heard claim that if you pick up an 870 Express at Wal-Mart, it will be more roughly finished (including a rougher action) than one found in a gun store.

Even if this last option is true (which, again, I have no solid evidence for), it still wouldn't be the same as "factory seconds." It would just be a batch run with different final standards on finishing.

[Complication]

Wal-Mart buys guns like they buy anything else. They go to companies and negotiate a quantity and a price. Then the gun company produces the firearms.

Sometimes this leads to deals...sometimes it leads to gun companies cutting a few corners to get the guns down to the Wal-Mart prices.

Wal-Mart probably does buy guns like anything else, but its "negotiating" process isn't like any other negotiating process on the planet. People go to WalMart to negotiate the ability to sell their stuff in the stores: WalMart has ALL the negotiating power. It's like one of those poor bastards in those African diamond mines trying to negotiate for higher pay.

Many products (you see this especially in TVs) will have two nearly identical models/serial numbers. One for Sears/Best Buy/etc. and one for Wal-Mart. The Wal-Mart models are often inferior in some way as the materials are often cheaper, the quality-control is non-existent, or while the resolution is the same (720p, etc.), the contrast-ratio is worse.

I wouldn't be surprised to discover Wal-Mart guns used a slightly cheaper steel or (more likely) a worse material for synthetic stocks, etc. I highly doubt they sell factory rejects, though.

Wal-Mart sells cheap goods in a few ways:
1) forces companies to eliminate inefficiencies in their supply chain/manufacturing (even to the point of telling folks to install energy-efficient lighting in their factories)
2) huge negotiating power to keep their suppliers' margins down
3) offering low-quality models
4) under-staffing stores
and the big one:
5) having an insanely efficient distribution system of their own.

Here's a great article about "The Man Who Said No To Wal-Mart" which gives you a decent glimpse into what it means to be a Wal-Mart supplier.
http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/102/open_snapper.html

[bkb0000]

its perfectly acceptable to make a statement like "never buy a gun from walmart..." but not to follow it up with "they sell factory seconds." as stated pretty thoroughly, they do negotiate for their own lines of things, and im sure guns are no different.

this is not just walmart- it's very common. never buy power tools from home depot, for instance.. home depot has negotiated with power tool manufacturers to produce less expensive versions of their usually quality tools to be sold in their stores. i had to learn this the hard way- cant tell you how many pneumatic/power tools i bought from home depot, and had them break, before i figured this out. the model numbers are generally slightly different- first clue.

[jklaughrey]

A really good friend of mine is the store mgr for a super Walmart. Hint is he doesn't shop there for items he needs to be of good quality. This is in spite of his HUGE discount on everything. He does by the basics there though, tp, diapers, shampoo, etc...

[John_Wayne777]

Are you saying that those gun companies "cut corners" by decreasing quality (as in cheaper steel, stamped parts etc), or cut corners by eliminating frills like checkering?

That would be closely guarded manufacturer secret type stuff that would vary from manufacturer to manufacturer and from time period to time period....

But yes, things like not checkering stocks or using a lower grade of wood for a stock, a noticeably rougher finish on the internals, etc were sometimes noticeable if you compared a Wal-Mart gun to the same or a similar model found in a normal gun store. As an example, the first time I ever saw a polymer trigger guard in a Remington 870 (signifying a lower quality trigger assembly that is more prone to breakage with heavy use) was in a Wal-Mart gun. They use them in all the 870's now, but for at least a while it was something I only saw in Wal-Mart guns.

As noted above, you'll often see that manufacturers make entire runs of firearms exclusive to Wal-Mart...and that rarely bodes well for the quality of what you're getting. Sometimes the differences are purely cosmetic and don't impact function. Sometimes they do.

[ucrt]

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I am no fan of Wal-Mart but I hate to see people say, "Don't buy guns from Wal-Mart."

I think any outlet to gets guns in people's hands can't be all bad. Their guns may not be full featured models but they make guns available to a lot of people at a low price ...and that is good.

But maybe it's just me...

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[Byron]

I don't see anyone advocating a boycott of Wal-Mart or saying that their offering of firearms is a negative thing. Rather, I think people have made very logical arguments for why purchasing such a serious item from Wal-Mart may not be advisable. At the very least, people should just be aware that the $500 rifle at Wal-Mart may not be the same rifle being sold at their FFL for $650, despite them looking relatively similar to the eye.

[TehLlama]

A really good friend of mine is the store mgr for a super Walmart. Hint is he doesn't shop there for items he needs to be of good quality. This is in spite of his HUGE discount on everything. He does by the basics there though, tp, diapers, shampoo, etc...

We haven't exactly unlocked the cosmological constant, but you hit on a very important point.

Wal-Mart is great about selling you low priced disposable goods. If you don't consider a firearm to be a disposable good, then you probably needn't buy them from wal-mart.

[CarlosDJackal]

...Wal-Mart is great about selling you low priced disposable goods. If you don't consider a firearm to be a disposable good, then you probably needn't buy them from wal-mart.

So by your logic; you are saying that the Remington 700ss that are sold in a Wal Mart are not of the same quality as the Remington 700s that are sold in Bubba's Gun Shop down the road?

I don't understand how you can make the jump between diapers and rifles. Then again, this is probably where the "factory seconds" myth came from. :confused:

[jklaughrey]

I wouldn't buy from Bubba either. All my firearm purchases are from reputable dealers. Besides I simply can't stand WW to begin with. Too many mindless lemmings.

[Byron]

So by your logic; you are saying that the Remington 700ss that are sold in a Wal Mart are not of the same quality as the Remington 700s that are sold in Bubba's Gun Shop down the road?
Have you read through this thread?

[CoryCop25]

This comes straight from the owner of the gun shop I work for. He has been in business for 35 years.... Big retailers like Wal-Mart, Kmart and the like would buy direct like from Remington for example. They would tell Remington that they would buy X amount of guns and they would pay a percentage under what a master dealer would get. For example, a master dealer will get 870s for 100 bucks each. The large retailer would get the same gun for say 95 bucks and sell it for 100. This is why the big stores muscled out the small gun shops. What is good now is that the big retailers are not selling guns anymore because they have fallen victim to the left side. Which is better for the small gun shops.

[CarlosDJackal]

Have you read through this thread?

Did you read my wholepost to include the quoted text? The one my post was specifically addressing. :rolleyes:

[Byron]

Did you read my wholepost to include the quoted text? The one my post was specifically addressing. :rolleyes:
Indeed I did. Hence my confusion. I'll explain though...


Wal-Mart is great about selling you low priced disposable goods. If you don't consider a firearm to be a disposable good, then you probably needn't buy them from wal-mart.

So by your logic; you are saying that the Remington 700ss that are sold in a Wal Mart are not of the same quality as the Remington 700s that are sold in Bubba's Gun Shop down the road?
Yes, that is exactly what he is saying, and what has been said by a number of other people in this thread: item XXX in Wal-Mart is not necessarily identical to item XXX in another store. It's not 100% across the board, but happens across a variety of products. It has been discussed why said item could potentially be different in a Wal-Mart.


I don't understand how you can make the jump between diapers and rifles. Then again, this is probably where the "factory seconds" myth came from. :confused:
He's not saying diapers and rifles are the same. In fact, that's his point: that cost cutting and material substitution probably won't matter on a product like diapers. You use it once and toss it out. Who cares whether the 10% cheaper diaper at Wal-Mart is potentially 10% less durable than what you'd find in another store?

His point was that if you have the same standard for guns: that they are to be used in a very limited capacity and then forgotten about, then Wal-Mart's selection will be great. But if you are someone who actually cares that the 10% cheaper gun is potentially 10% less durable, you should shop elsewhere.

Economy of scale can only go so far. At some point in product negotiations, Wal-Mart may give an ultimatum that is below the manufacturer's line for profit. The manufacturer chooses to either stay out of Wal-Mart or find a way to cut costs. How they cut costs can sometimes be transparent (offering what is clearly an "economy" model), or they can sometimes be less noticeable upon first inspection (substitution of materials, etc).

If you are a soundly educated consumer, then fine: you know what you are getting. But that's the point: most people aren't. And most people think that what they see in Wal-Mart is always the exact same thing they're seeing in every other place. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Hence the cautionary advice of the members in this thread: when it comes to a weapon, why gamble?

[jklaughrey]

If my buddy a Super WW store mgr won't buy an item from his own store at a huge discount. This is what some people refer to as a clue. And it is a HUGE at that.