View Full Version : sig issues corrected
carnage0014
11-09-10, 18:50
quick question, Was looking into buying a p229 but have been concerned by what I have read in older post. Does anyone one know if the QC issues have been worked out at sig if not I may look into purchasing a p30. I really like though how the p229 feels, most people said that there were no issues with the plain jane models it's when you get into the bling models where problems where.
I've had a P229 for 15 years. It's had many thousands of rounds through it in all kinds of weather and has been utterly reliable since the first time I pulled the trigger. I hate that the line's quality has been called into question, but I guess the reasons are valid. Having said that, the P229 has been a reliable Sig workhorse for almost two decades. The manufacturing, parts, design, assembly have long been worked out. I might hesitate to get one of the new Sig designs but I'd be a lot less hesitant about that particular model.
The P229 has been one of the more solid Sig designs over the years. Yes, there have been some QC problems lately, but Sig is getting them corrected. You still got lemons with the older guns, but they were few and far between. With newer Sigs, you have some more lemons on average. However, Sig has very good customer service, and if you have any problems they tend to address them quickly. Most of the time, you'll get a good gun.
All that being said, if I had to choose between a new P229 and a new P30......I'd go with the P30 based on the confidence I have in H&K's manufacturing practices. If you want a new P229 though, get the plain Jane model.
If you want to try and locate an older Sig P229 that was under the previous CEO(better quality), look for one that doesn't have any light rails, and has the company name "Sigarms" on it.....not "Sig Sauer". Here's an example of an older P229 in .40S&W:
http://www.gunsamerica.com/905578454/Guns/Pistols/Sig-Sauer-Sigarms-Pistols/P229/Sig_Sauer_P229_40s_w_with_3_magazines_and_Galco_IWB_holste.htm#
Also notice that the take down lever on this older gun is different than the newer guns. Just another clue to help you piece together which guns are older and which are newer.
I ordered some parts, srt trigger set, in Sept 2009. An LE order. I ordered four. In Dec. 2009 I got four safety bars and no sears. In May I got four decocker levers that I didn't order. Now it's Nov. 2010 and still no SRT sears. I haven't sent the $20 for the safety bars as they are of no use without the sears.
I'm just going to wait and see how long it takes to get the parts, if I ever do. I will return the safety bars in time, with the decocker levers.
Never used to be that way, but it is what it is I guess.
My wife has a P228 that was issued to her in 1999, well over 20K rounds and last month just got its first re-spring, inspection, and tune-up with a new set of night sights. I have a P229 DAO that I bought in 1999, it has about 10K rounds and runs like a sewing machine. I am on my second P229 DAK issued in the past 18 months, it being a replacement for the first. I recommend that you avoid current production SIGs.
sundance435
11-10-10, 02:16
quick question, Was looking into buying a p229 but have been concerned by what I have read in older post. Does anyone one know if the QC issues have been worked out at sig if not I may look into purchasing a p30. I really like though how the p229 feels, most people said that there were no issues with the plain jane models it's when you get into the bling models where problems where.
Unless someone can chime in with inside information that would imply otherwise, then I doubt there is any real difference between the "plain jane" models and the "bling" models, as far as quality and personal inspection goes. In fact, I would say that if anything, the "bling" models would get more attention.
I am wary of any company that has a new model seemingly every week/month.
gtmtnbiker98
11-10-10, 07:37
I would personally look elsewhere for a new acquisition. Sig today is not Sig of yesterday. Too many other options to consider, unless of course, you have to have a P229. In that case, caveat emptor.
Unless someone can chime in with inside information that would imply otherwise, then I doubt there is any real difference between the "plain jane" models and the "bling" models, as far as quality and personal inspection goes. In fact, I would say that if anything, the "bling" models would get more attention.
I am wary of any company that has a new model seemingly every week/month.
US based Sig Sauer under Ron Cohen is making more money than they used to, but it is coming at a high price for the future. They are losing more and more law enforcement contracts due to faulty parts, reputation, and not holding up in procurement competitions. Their new showcase pistol, the P250, has been an unreliable abomination that failed ATF's testing VERY badly. The current Sig Sauer is still living off of the 2004 DHS contract in which Sigarms made a quality gun that kicked the competition's butt. If DHS can break away from the old contract when their guns wear out, perhaps they can dump Sig and get something better.
Apparently, the "bling" models make Sig more money than the plain jane models. Reason being, hard users want plain jane models and those users are smart enough to realize that the golden age of Sig is gone and they will choose other options. Those who buy the bling models are generally not hard users, and will not punish the gun to expose its manufacturing problems. I have personally seen just as many problems with the elite models and other more blingy models as I have with the newer plain jane models.
The only reason that I continue to use Sigs all the time is because I am required to do so as my duty pistol. However, I choose to only use older Sigs manufactured under Sigarms which have served me well. My hope though is that as our guns wear out and we are forced to either buy new Sigs, or go to something else......that we will go to something else like Glock, S&W M&P, or H&K.
US based Sig Sauer under Ron Cohen is making more money than they used to, but it is coming at a high price for the future. They are losing more and more law enforcement contracts due to faulty parts, reputation, and not holding up in procurement competitions. Their new showcase pistol, the P250, has been an unreliable abomination that failed ATF's testing VERY badly. The current Sig Sauer is still living off of the 2004 DHS contract in which Sigarms made a quality gun that kicked the competition's butt. If DHS can break away from the old contract when their guns wear out, perhaps they can dump Sig and get something better.
Apparently, the "bling" models make Sig more money than the plain jane models. Reason being, hard users want plain jane models and those users are smart enough to realize that the golden age of Sig is gone and they will choose other options. Those who buy the bling models are generally not hard users, and will not punish the gun to expose its manufacturing problems. I have personally seen just as many problems with the elite models and other more blingy models as I have with the newer plain jane models.
The only reason that I continue to use Sigs all the time is because I am required to do so as my duty pistol. However, I choose to only use older Sigs manufactured under Sigarms which have served me well. My hope though is that as our guns wear out and we are forced to either buy new Sigs, or go to something else......that we will go to something else like Glock, S&W M&P, or H&K.
Yep. We ordered 3 new P229s through our local LE Rep. Here is what we got:
1. Pistol #1; takedown lever broke in half the very first time we were fieldstrapping the pistol. Quite literally right out of the box.
2. Pistol #2; Had the plastic recoil guide......but NO recoil spring. Excellent Quality Control at the factory and by local LE REP who said he personnally inspects every pistol.
3. Pistol #3; Everything fine....except the rear night sights had fallen off. Apparently the grove in frame was out of spec and too large. You could slide the nights sights in and very gently tap them once with a finger to knock then out and off.
All three pistols went back. The Chief and I had a nice long conference call with local LE REP and his regional boss.
The more I see of SIG's current product, the more I like my 10 year old P229.
Yep. We ordered 3 new P229s through our local LE Rep. Here is what we got:
1. Pistol #1; takedown lever broke in half the very first time we were fieldstrapping the pistol. Quite literally right out of the box.
2. Pistol #2; Had the plastic recoil guide......but NO recoil spring. Excellent Quality Control at the factory and by local LE REP who said he personnally inspects every pistol.
3. Pistol #3; Everything fine....except the rear night sights had fallen off. Apparently the grove in frame was out of spec and too large. You could slide the nights sights in and very gently tap them once with a finger to knock then out and off.
All three pistols went back. The Chief and I had a nice long conference call with local LE REP and his regional boss.
The more I see of SIG's current product, the more I like my 10 year old P229.
I'd try to push for a new pistol for your agency, and have those that want to use Sigs grandfather in their old pistols.
Not that I am an expert but both my friend and I own the sig p226 E2 its not the bling model but its also not the basic one. Both of us have several thousands rounds through them now with out any problems and its by far the most fun and accurate gun Ive ever shot, out of the box. Fit and finish is also great. Just my experience so far.
carnage0014
11-10-10, 11:15
Thanks for all the info so far, I have started doing research on the p30 after reading all the positive reviews here. Only thing though is people saying the slide release can interfere but I have small hands so I am not to worried. I will get a feel for it on friday when I go to make the purchase. I just really like how the sig felt in my hand and felt all around but I'll check with the hk to. Keep the info coming.
Thanks for all the info so far, I have started doing research on the p30 after reading all the positive reviews here. Only thing though is people saying the slide release can interfere but I have small hands so I am not to worried. I will get a feel for it on friday when I go to make the purchase. I just really like how the sig felt in my hand and felt all around but I'll check with the hk to. Keep the info coming.
It is also pretty common for Sig shooters to trip the slide stop lever when they ride it thumbs high. How the gun feels in the hand is secondary to the pistol's reliability, durability, and performance. Even the worst feeling gun can become an extension of your arm with enough range time.
I'm a long-time Sig lover, and a Sig LE armorer, but I don't own one now. The last one I bought that had "Sig" quality in it was a 2004-production P226R in 9mm. Like an idiot, I sold that one in early 2008, since I now carry Glocks full time.
In 2005-06, I had an open order for basic maintenance parts for our P228s for nearly 18 months - and never received any of the parts ordered.
In 2008, in preparation for my agency's transition to the P229R DAK in .40, I purchased one to train up on. The first one I received had the frame mis-machined, so the grips could not be installed without a 1/8" gap in the backstrap. Returned that one for a replacement, and was sent a P229 DA/SA with a DA trigger that had to be in excess of 15 pounds, and nasty, gritty SA. Returned that one and got the correct model, and sold it before I shot it, at a steep loss, simply because I was DONE with Sig.
When the transition finally arrived, I was able to attend the "train the trainer" session for FIs. We had at least six P239 DAKs that couldn't be made to work, regardless of what we or the on-sight Sig personnel did to them.
My personal opinion is that winning the DHS contract, combined with the arrival of Ron Cohen (who managed to trash Kimber's reputation for quality in short order) was the death of Sig. They turned from a company whose name stood for death-and-taxes reliability, superb accuracy, and exceptional fit and finish into a company that's churning out crap (literally) as quick as they can, and consumer beware.
I wish Sig was the same company is was back in the 80s and 90s, but it simply isn't...
Regards,
Kevin
I'd try to push for a new pistol for your agency, and have those that want to use Sigs grandfather in their old pistols.
I would like to but with the economy and budget crunch, it won't happen any time soon. Also the Command Staff is "everyone must have the same pistol" philosphy.
I wish Sig was the same company is was back in the 80s and 90s, but it simply isn't...
Regards,
Kevin
Sig Sauer in German still makes excellent guns. It's US based Sig that is a totally different entity and plays by their own rules. The UK has adopted the P226 to replace their aging FN Highpowers, but they are buying German made P226 guns.
I think the one exception to the rule for new US Sigs is the P232. Most of this pistol, including the magazines are still made in Germany. The hammer, trigger, and all other small parts on this gun are still billet machined and seem to be of good quality. So the entire lower assembly including the barrel is still made in Germany. The slides are US made which is about the only weak point. However, US based Sig seems to have gotten the slide dimensions right most of the time, there rarely seems to be a problem them.
I just purchased a used Sig P229 from a guy here locally and the serial # shows it's a 1996 gun. It has some normal wear from a few thousand rounds, but the gun is in really good shape (except for the infamous blueing issues on the front strap)
I had heard of Q&A issues with newer Sigs, but I had always wanted a Sig and it just worked out I got a good deal on a older one. I don't know if Sig's quality has gone down or not, but what I do know is the competition in the handgun market is very tight, much tighter than it's been in the past.
Companies like Sig could do more by sticking with what made them popular and stop trying to reinvent the wheel with these polymer guns they are putting out.
I would buy a polymer gun from Sig, but not of the design that they made the P250. It just seemed like too much of a gimic to me and what could it do that a Glock can't already.
Anyway, I'm sort of glad I found a used 1996 Sig now after reading so much about issues with the new ones. Shame because Sigs were always the Sh*t when I was growing up in the 80s and 90s.
carnage0014
11-13-10, 18:15
thanks for all the great info. I ended up going to my local shop and picking up a p30 gun felt so natural and perfect for my hand. Even better then the 229 !
Can one still order a German made 228, 226 or 229?
davebee456
11-13-10, 23:26
I dont think you can get New German Made P-Series Guns here..
I have a P226R made last year, It is a very good shooter for me but i only have about 200 rounds through it...
It needs way more rounds to see if it is a reliable pistol...
Nothing stands out as being crappy like I expected.
I bought a Used German Made P220 45 That i just was able to put about 100 rounds through and it also is a great shooter and I love the design of the P series it is a shame that one has to be nervous about buying a P-Series Gun in 2010.
Side Note: I just bought a lemon Glock brand new so i guess no brand is safe anymore.
thanks for all the great info. I ended up going to my local shop and picking up a p30 gun felt so natural and perfect for my hand. Even better then the 229 !
I think you'll like the P30. I bought one a couple months ago & couldn't be happier. It may eventually replace my Sig P220 as my primary carry piece, if I ever get used to that damned trigger.
davebee456
11-14-10, 00:08
The P30 is fantastic and one of the top 3 best 9mm midsize pistols out there right now for purchase
Can one still order a German made 228, 226 or 229?
Yes you can.
There are a few P228R 9mms coming into the US, but I'm not sure how many will be shipped in. Every part of the gun is "supposed" to be made in Germany, and the slide is still stamped with the roll pins and internal extractor. I'm not sure if they are using some sort of stainless in the stampings now, but they are using the more durable nitron finish on them. I'm sure that some part of the gun is made in the US for import laws, but I know for sure that the frame, barrel, and slide are German made. It could be just minor parts like the hammer and trigger. Those who have bought these guns say that their fit and finish reminds them of old Sigs, and there is one guy on this forum that has put his through a decent round count with no abnormal wear or problems. I'll probably get one after the holidays.
I WILL NOT use a Sig that is not German proofed.
This means I'm limiting myself to much older Sigs and to the very few that were imported by PW Arms and the higher grade Sigs such as the X5.
I have seen way too many problems with the current crop of Cohen era guns. The guy and his crew are making a lot of money right now, but are killing that company's reputation and future among guys that actually use their guns.
For a DA/SA gun I'd stick to H&K.
Bulldog7972
11-14-10, 21:51
I dunno. Threads like this amaze me. I've got five Sigs. One is a brand new 239 in 40 S&W with about 2k rounds through it. I've never,ever had one single problem with any one of them. Am I the only guy in the whole world that's happy with Sigs and never had a problem with them? For the record I am VERY happy with my Sigs and will probably by another soon.
Am I the only guy in the whole world that's happy with Sigs and never had a problem with them?
No. I have two recent manufacture Sigs, (a 220 & a 229 in .40) & have yet to have problem with either. The 229 has over 5000 rounds through it & the 220 close to 3000, without a single failure.
Are current P239s safe to buy? It is one of my only options for a single stack 9mm here in Cali.
Iron,
Is your 220 an external or internal extractor?
I would love to go back to Sig's for duty use as they are my favorite platform to shoot, but I am hesitant with current QC. There certainly are more issues out there with newer Sig's. I think I have found a 229 .40 pre-rail that is new in the box that I will purchase for duty use. If I could carry a 9mm on duty, I would just purchase 2 Sig 228R's and be done with it, but .40 and .45 are the only option for me. Haven't decided what I am going to do. I would also like to get a 239 for off duty use as the bobbed hammer and size make it ideal for me.
I would really love to carry a 220 external extractor on duty, but am very hesitant with so many extractor issues in the past. I know of some external extractors breaking with only a few hundred rounds.
I know a couple reps that read the blogs on a regular basis. It really is amazing that changes are not put in place to correct the situation.
Maybe they are just in denial.
I had to have a P250 as soon as I could get one on letterhead through the LE rep. I got it, loved the trigger, reset was a little long but I could deal with it.
As it were, I got it just before a scheduled trip to BW for a five day pistol class. Went there pumped for a great training week. I came away as a self proclaimed expert in soft malfunction clearing. Really made the week a mess.
The issue was light primer hits. Lots of them. When I returned I looked at some of the blogs and began seeing post saying they were having the same problems. A couple friends of mine got their P250 after I did. They had the same issue.
I contacted the LE rep that got the gun for me, and asked him what was up with all the problems with light primer hits I was hearing about.
His reply was they weren't having any problems with the P250, but send mine back and they would have their gunsmiths look into my issues.
So that happened, I got the gun back, ready to let it work. First mag had, guess what light primer hits. The amout of the bad hits were reduced a bit but couldn't have a gun that I started to expect to have FTF when ever I used it.
So it had to go live at someone elses house.
Since then I learned from a Sig employee that they had s small industry just to deal with returned P250 problems.
The point is that, whoever runs that show, I forget his name, must see he's running a greatly respected gun company into the also ran catagory.
I was a solid Sig shooter for a long time, still own three older ones. As I talk with other loyal Sig shooters, as I was, I see they slowly jumping ship. The more loyal the slower to jump, but never the less they are jumping.
It's really sad because I really really was a very loyal Sig guy, but the evidence is there.
I don't think it's a lost cause, but I think the first thing they have to admit is they've had a problem. Start putting out all their guns in a reliable condition and dump the loosers that came out before R&D is complete.
Just my experience and opinion. I understand everybody has that.
Bulldog7972
11-15-10, 12:44
Are current P239s safe to buy? It is one of my only options for a single stack 9mm here in Cali.
I don't know what you mean by safe. But in any event, I own two 239's. One in 40 (a new one) and one in 9mm. They both work great, shoot great and as of this posting, have been mlfunction free. IMHO they are great carry guns. Small but shoot like big guns, somewhat heavy but that seems to help tame any recoil, thin so they conceal easy. I ALWAYS have one of the two on me. I also carry an extra mag. With that setup I feel that I'm well armed, able to handle any situation. Hope this helps.
Iron,
Is your 220 an external or internal extractor?
I would love to go back to Sig's for duty use as they are my favorite platform to shoot, but I am hesitant with current QC. There certainly are more issues out there with newer Sig's. I think I have found a 229 .40 pre-rail that is new in the box that I will purchase for duty use. If I could carry a 9mm on duty, I would just purchase 2 Sig 228R's and be done with it, but .40 and .45 are the only option for me. Haven't decided what I am going to do. I would also like to get a 239 for off duty use as the bobbed hammer and size make it ideal for me.
I would really love to carry a 220 external extractor on duty, but am very hesitant with so many extractor issues in the past. I know of some external extractors breaking with only a few hundred rounds.
Mine has an external extractor. I haven't had a problem with it so far.
John_Wayne777
11-16-10, 06:52
I contacted the LE rep that got the gun for me, and asked him what was up with all the problems with light primer hits I was hearing about. His reply was they weren't having any problems with the P250, but send mine back and they would have their gunsmiths look into my issues.
FWIW, it's sometimes an SOP for reps to claim that they've never heard about your issue before. To give an example, a friend of mine noted at a LE conference that an officer attending had a problem with his sidearm and brought it to the factory rep. The factory rep said "Gee, we haven't seen that before, but I just happen to have a spare part here that should fix you right up!"
A short time later the rep was approached by another officer with the same problem and the rep said "Gee, we haven't seen that before, but I just happen to have a spare part here that should fix you right up!"
davebee456
11-16-10, 09:30
I did just buy a 2009 Sig P226R new from my Local gun store, I put 200 rounds through it and did not have any issues yet...My reasoning and justification was...
1. I read somewhere soon even the frames and barrels will all be made here in the USA, not a bad thing say for Springfield Armory but for SigSauer it sounds and looks strange to me.
2. I only like to buy used guns if the manufacture stopped making the model and i can buy new.
3. Out of all the Sig designs I wanted I thought the P226 would be the hardest for Cohen and the mimber team to mess up.
I wish they could realize that the name and allure of a company like that was mostly from quality control..If they dont watch out in ten years from now they could be making less money than they did ten years ago.
I did just buy a 2009 Sig P226R new from my Local gun store, I put 200 rounds through it and did not have any issues yet...My reasoning and justification was...
1. I read somewhere soon even the frames and barrels will all be made here in the USA, not a bad thing say for Springfield Armory but for SigSauer it sounds and looks strange to me.
2. I only like to buy used guns if the manufacture stopped making the model and i can buy new.
3. Out of all the Sig designs I wanted I thought the P226 would be the hardest for Cohen and the mimber team to mess up.
I wish they could realize that the name and allure of a company like that was mostly from quality control..If they dont watch out in ten years from now they could be making less money than they did ten years ago.
In reference to #3 of your list, Cohen and company really tried to mess up the P226 a couple years ago. SIG was shipping P226s out with normal single strand recoil springs instead of the triple strand recoil springs. This caused issues with the takedown levers cracking and breaking. Bruce Gray did a big write up of problem on some of the SIG forums.
In reference to #3 of your list, Cohen and company really tried to mess up the P226 a couple years ago. SIG was shipping P226s out with normal single strand recoil springs instead of the triple strand recoil springs. This caused issues with the takedown levers cracking and breaking. Bruce Gray did a big write up of problem on some of the SIG forums.
This is very typical of the "new" Sig Sauer.
Many of you are talking about buying newer pistols, and putting a couple of thousand "gentle" rounds through them without any problems. By gentle, I mean under 500rds at a time, in static range conditions, with regular cleaning. Most pistols will do this just fine, which is what Ron Cohen is betting on most of his buyers doing. The majority of problems are coming from police agencies which are not always gentle on their guns.
Just for some perspective, I've worked for DOI for a little over 10 years and have been a Sig armorer for most of that. We've used 9mm, .40, and .45 Sigs since the late 1980s, and we still have some of those first contract guns in circulation. Because they are govt(taxpayer) owned guns, most officers beat the hell out of them in training/duty and rarely clean them. There are no round count records on any of these guns, we just run them until they are literally dead. What's interesting though is that virtually none of them have "died" on us, and we have rarely broken any parts. However, we do have some academy Sigs that are approximately in the 100k round range and still run reliable with regular maintenance. In 2008, we bought a bunch of P229R .40s. They have run okay in the last 2 years, but some of our special teams guys have put a lot of ammo downrange and their new Sigs are wearing out.....fast. The slide, barrel, and frame are now made of softer materials. Take down lever holes in the frame are opening up and causing lockup problems, we are stripping out grip screw threads in the frames, our P220 slide breech faces are denting with +P ammo, slides are wobbling on top of frames, and other barrel locking surfaces are wearing out faster. We also get a lot more small parts breakages. All problems that we rarely to never experienced with W. German or "Sigarms" Sigs, even with over 4x the round count.
Sig is selling their pistols at premium prices and unfortunately people are paying for them. The original stamped slide Sig was a cheap, no bells or whistles, hard use service pistol. It was tough as nails and worked better than pretty much anything else out there in the harshest of environments when it came out in the mid 1970s. Materials and quality control improved with the 1982 US contracts, and "Sigarms" took the Sig P-series into the realm of H&K quality and reputation. At this time, Sig didn't change the design much, but instead focused on maximizing metallurgy superiority and quality controls. As a result, they managed to make all of the Sig components hard, yet resistant to fractures. So, all of the parts lasted a LONG time. Components were thus more expensive, but the volume of sales kept up profits.
Cohen is right about one thing......the Sig design is aging. They just aren't commanding the large scale military and police contracts that they used to, so those high volume sales just aren't there and it will likely never be there again for the classic P-series. Other new designs are more ergonomic, just as reliable, durable, and they are cheaper to make. As much as I like the classic Sig design, it just doesn't have a future in today's market.....even if it were made to the old Sigarms standards. What has really brought about the decline of quality Sigs, isn't so much Ron Cohen as the competition from modern manufacturing techniques and cheaper materials like polymer. You just can't make a fully machined frame and slide and have a competative price in the polymer gun age and still have the same profit return as the competition.......unless you cut some corners. With new Sig designs like the P250......they also suck.......just ask the ATF or Air Marshals. Cohen is a decent business man, but he has no clue on how to make a hard use military/police pistol or rifle for that matter which is evident in Sig's new line of products.
I still keep a few older Sigs and they always remind me of just how great Sig P-series pistols once were.
My first handgun was a P225 that I purchased when I moved out of my parents house when I was 18. For the next 12 years, I have continued to buy them, so I am pretty familiar with the design. I have owned 3 P226's, 2 P225's, 1 P220, a Mosquito and my latest, a P228R. Out of all those, the only one that has disappointed, or given me trouble, was the Mosquito. But I bought it for my kids to plink with and not for "serious" use. I also carry my P226R 9mm at work, by choice. It now has at least 14k+ (being conservative) rounds through it without a single part breakage, or malfuntion that was not related to ammo.
Where I work, G22's are issued, but you can carry SIG (P-series), Glock, Beretta, HK, and S&W's in 9mm, .40 or .45, if you purchase it yourself. After seeing hundreds and hundreds of handguns in training, of different makes and models, the H&K's and SIGs stand out as the most reliable, new or old. I've personally seen more Glocks and M&P's have failures that would put someone out of a gunfight then either the HK or SIG. Does that make the Glocks or S&W's junk? Nope. Every firearm manufacturer has it's ups/downs and lemons. I will point out that the majority of "problem" weapons have been in .40 caliber, which is why I will not own or carry one.
I've been impressed with my new P228R. I only have about 1k rounds down the pipe, but it's very accurate and has yet to have a malfunction. From what I understand, the slide, frame and barrel are German made, while the internals are from the US. The first thing I noticed was how tight it was compared to my other SIGs when they were new. The "Nitron" finish is now a matte type finish that is more grey in color rather than the smooth black Nitron that is on my P226. The DA trigger was a little gritty but has worked itself out with dryfire and rounds down range. I do not like the mags that it shipped with and the MIM hammer bugs me, even though I know it's not a big deal.
I don't like that SIG is using some MIM parts, but in reality, almost every handgun manufactured today has them. Even the most popular handgun on this forum has a LOT of MIM parts. Hell, even the frame rails on it are MIM. Another argument that people have is that SIGs shouldn't be using MIM parts and still charge a premium price. Well, I can tell you that I paid $699 for the P228R two months ago, which is less than what I paid for my US made P226R 6-7 years ago. Both came with night sights, short trigger and nitron finish.
Entropy, I have to disagree with you that the P-series design is "aging." If it's aging, then so is the Glock in it's current form and the 1911 is a dinosaur that should not even work anymore. SIG isn't "commanding" large scale LE sales anymore because Glock used to give their guns away, and now S&W is doing the same thing. When times are rough, such as they are now, departments struggle just to keep guys on the street. If your guys need new weapons, and you are a bean counter, the deal that S&W is offering is hard to pass up. Glock is also losing contracts to S&W because of it. Does that mean that the Glock is an antiquated design? Nope! You also state that SIG does not get a lot of .mil sales, but if you do some research, many countries issue SIGs. The P226 is also the issued pistol among many of the worlds top special operation units... NSW (SEALs), SBS, SAS, Grom, JTF-2 just to name a few. That says a lot about an "aging" design.
IMO, these "problems" have been blown out of proportion by the errornet. Just like the Glock "kaboom" problems and constant trash talk about HK's customer service. You always here the bad, but seldom here the good, especially on the net.
davebee456
11-18-10, 22:46
After 40 rounds fired at the range today, My Excellent MIM Filled P-226R Failed.
The 226 Jammed up bad while firing, I did a tap rack and I had to strip the mag out..
I looked closer and I see the empty case is still in the chamber and my P226R doesnt have an extractor or pin or extractor spring anymore...
After around 200 rounds the gun is a paper weight.
I called the range officer over and we examined the empty case that was in the chamber and like an idiot I didnt keep it. After I pulled it out with my finger nail it looked fine, It was Federal American Eagle 124gr FMJ however I was worried i now have a $780.00 paper weight.
I called Sig and sent it back to them, The rep on the phone told me this happens and every time it has happened its been the ammo's fault.
I told the rep i never ever fire reloads and this is very frustrating.
They told me that a gunsmith will examine the pistol to see if it was ammo related failure which I am sure they will say it was.
If Ammo related i will have to pay 200 dollars or more for a gun i will be selling, if they fix it for free under warranty i will give it another 200 rounds to see if any thing else fails.
variablebinary
11-19-10, 01:42
Can one still order a German made 228, 226 or 229?
Order? Not really. Though there are alternatives.
A pretty good size shipment of 9mm 226R and 228R models came from Germany right after Obama got elected.
SIG brought them in to keep up with orders. It was real crazy for awhile there.
The X5 models are always German. The 228 is German usually when you can find it.
quick question, Was looking into buying a p229 but have been concerned by what I have read in older post. Does anyone one know if the QC issues have been worked out at sig if not I may look into purchasing a p30. I really like though how the p229 feels, most people said that there were no issues with the plain jane models it's when you get into the bling models where problems where.
Cohen took over in DEC 04. Buy any Sig from the Pre-Cohen Era (PCE).
German guns will serve you the best!
John_Wayne777
11-19-10, 08:59
Entropy, I have to disagree with you that the P-series design is "aging." If it's aging, then so is the Glock in it's current form and the 1911 is a dinosaur that should not even work anymore.
The 1911 is a dinosaur and the number of units in the military and LE that still use it heavily can probably be counted on one hand. The traditional Sig setup is at the very least an endangered species. If for no other reason than the raw cost of making one. Polymer frames save a dramatic amount of money in the production process.
SIG isn't "commanding" large scale LE sales anymore because Glock used to give their guns away, and now S&W is doing the same thing.
Glock was not getting large LE contracts by simply giving guns away. Glock was able to produce weapons at such a low price while still making a profit because of efficiencies born from design and production. S&W is doing the same with the M&P.
Glock changed the nature of the firearms market forever.
Sig is not helped by the fact that there are departments out there who have had great service from Sig handguns for years who looked to replace aging weapons with new Sig handguns only to find out that the new ones malfunctioned a lot or broke on them before they could even get a good test going. Those departments have a lot of sunk cost already in Sig and it would make financial sense to stick with Sig...
...if they could get some that worked.
When times are rough, such as they are now, departments struggle just to keep guys on the street. If your guys need new weapons, and you are a bean counter, the deal that S&W is offering is hard to pass up. Glock is also losing contracts to S&W because of it. Does that mean that the Glock is an antiquated design? Nope!
It would be somewhat silly for anyone to argue that a department bought a polymer-framed, striker fired handgun with an accessory rail over another polymer-framed, striker fired handgun with an accessory rail because the latter was "obsolete".
IMO, these "problems" have been blown out of proportion by the errornet.
It's taken time for a lot of people to believe that 3rd generation .40 caliber Glocks had some issues. It's taken time for people to figure out that the 1911 isn't the pinnacle of a combat sidearm. Likewise it will still take some time for people to accept that Sig today isn't the same company it was several years ago.
C'est la vie.
I work for an LE Glock distributor.
We don't give them away. We move dozens if not hundreds of Glocks every month to departments at regular dept pricing.
We also distribute for S&W and Sprinfield Armory. Glocks are NOT that much cheaper than S&W's, and Springfield Armory XD's are less expensive than Glock.
Departments buy Glocks because they work, they're worth the price, and they hold their value very well.
Word is getting out on Sig even in LE circles. We get VERY few requests for Sigs (1 in 50, maybe). I've had a lot of LE firearms instructors come in and comment on failures they've been seeing with current production Sigs.
Sig is digging their own grave, and I'm not loosing any sleep over it.
Sig is not helped by the fact that there are departments out there who have had great service from Sig handguns for years who looked to replace aging weapons with new Sig handguns only to find out that the new ones malfunctioned a lot or broke on them before they could even get a good test going. Those departments have a lot of sunk cost already in Sig and it would make financial sense to stick with Sig...
...if they could get some that worked.
Very true. It takes a lot for large agencies, especially Federal to transition to a new platform. Many times they will over look these problems because they have such huge inventories of Sigs and a transition would be fiscally complex, not to mention all the changes in training, SOPs, and reference manuals. Most Feds are about a decade behind state and local departments when it comes to replacing old equipment with new models. I work with DOI, and we tend to get a lot of hand-me-downs from other agencies. We have a HUGE inventory of old Sigs, so I don't see us switching to anything else for at least another decade. We can't sell them to the public, so we have to sell them to another agency, or send them off for destruction. This is probably the primary reason why it's hard for us to replace existing inventories of firearms. For the time being, I'll continue to pick up old Sigs when I can, and hope that I don't have to rely on the new Sig Sauer for anything major.
You can thank this guy for Sig's downfall:
http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/sgalbra76/Ron-Cohen-L.jpg
I'm not a SIG guy, but I understand that Naval Special Warfare has been using the P226 for quite some time now (although I don't know if it's currently issued in any quantity). Statistically, they're quite a tiny percentage of SIG users but I wonder if they've run into any issues with the newer weapons?
I'm not a SIG guy, but I understand that Naval Special Warfare has been using the P226 for quite some time now (although I don't know if it's currently issued in any quantity). Statistically, they're quite a tiny percentage of SIG users but I wonder if they've run into any issues with the newer weapons?
Theirs are probably older pistols. When my department was thinking about "upgrading" our older P229s to newer P229s we were told by the SIG LE Rep that the contract to buy new pistols could come in three flavors:
1. Standard little to no QC, same as commercial pistols.
2. Some QC on the the pistols.
3. Federal/Homeland Security QC (the way SIG used to do things for ALL their pistols).
Of course there was a price increase between the three options with #3 being the most expensive.
davebee456
11-19-10, 10:31
un-F'IN-belivable! No QC is an option!! its like a $800 Jennings Saturday Night Special..
Theirs are probably older pistols. When my department was thinking about "upgrading" our older P229s to newer P229s we were told by the SIG LE Rep that the contract to buy new pistols could come in three flavors:
1. Standard little to no QC, same as commercial pistols.
2. Some QC on the the pistols.
3. Federal/Homeland Security QC (the way SIG used to do things for ALL their pistols).
Of course there was a price increase between the three options with #3 being the most expensive.
This is something that is rumored to be going on in the new Sig Sauer. I don't handle pistol procurements, so I don't know for sure. Even if you opt for #3, Sig has changed the materials used from Sigarms standards, so you are still getting a weaker product.
un-F'IN-belivable! No QC is an option!! its like a $800 Jennings Saturday Night Special..
As I've said in numerous threads, the only reason why I continue to use Sigs is because I am required to. Now, it's nice to own old Sigs, but keep in mind that if you need parts they may not be as good the originals that came with the gun that made it work so well.
When it comes to a hard use defensive pistol, you need company suppport to keep that gun running well. You've got to replace parts, and you will need repairs with enough use. Sig Sauer is not a company that I trust to provide me with the best replacement parts.
If I had no restrictions on what pistols I could use, I would go with H&K, Glock, or S&W.
You can thank this guy for Sig's downfall:
http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/sgalbra76/Ron-Cohen-L.jpg
Actually there are some that say Cohen is the only person keeping Sig P series alive these days in this increasingly competitive market.
As another poster pointed out the price difference for the old German standard of QC is huge, and with Sigs already being more expensive than the competition (like Glock) that would've been a death blow to Sig.
IMO the best way to look at it, is compare the price of a company that had a similar QC level as Sig Germany, Hk. Their plastic pistols cost as much as new production Sig P Series (which use more expensive aluminum frames).
When it comes to a hard use defensive pistol, you need company suppport to keep that gun running well. You've got to replace parts, and you will need repairs with enough use. Sig Sauer is not a company that I trust to provide me with the best replacement parts.
With exception of the FPPP, take down lever, extractor, and springs what parts are you replacing on a regular basis? Most of my Sigs are in the 10-15k range and the only part I've broken have been roll pins on my 228. And there are always going to be parts that fail early in life, infant mortality happens.
I do think it's funny that Gray Guns considers the parts issue over blown. But that is the area that most people harp on.
IMO most of Sig's issues is allowing pistols to leave the factory that shouldn't. Wrong guide rods, wrong recoil springs, et al. Stuff that slightly higher QC would eliminate.
With exception of the FPPP, take down lever, extractor, and springs what parts are you replacing on a regular basis? Most of my Sigs are in the 10-15k range and the only part I've broken have been roll pins on my 228. And there are always going to be parts that fail early in life, infant mortality happens.
I do think it's funny that Gray Guns considers the parts issue over blown. But that is the area that most people harp on.
IMO most of Sig's issues is allowing pistols to leave the factory that shouldn't. Wrong guide rods, wrong recoil springs, et al. Stuff that slightly higher QC would eliminate.
We order take down levers, slide catch levers, decocking levers, grips, and all springs in bulk. Some of our officers average 15k rounds a year on their duty Sigs. About 5 years ago we could get at least 30k rounds out of all the control levers before we changed them out. Now days we are changing them out every 15k rounds as DOI was having parts failures in these parts every prior to 30k rounds. We've actually moved to lower recoiling ammo in each caliber as well. FLETC has a little over 200 Sigs that are only used for academy training. These guns are run very hard, and usually end up with about 20k rounds through them a year. We run them a little harder than our duty guns, and wait till things start breaking so that we can have a general idea of what we can expect out of the guns and their replacement parts. Those small parts just aren't lasting as long, and we have rewritten our SOPs regarding armory work to accomidate the reduced life span on these parts.
As far as springs go, we haven't had much trouble with them. We start getting light hammer strikes around 50-60k rounds, and that hasn't really changed. The new grips on several Sigs like the P229 are of terrible quality. The right grip pannel on the P229 does not line up properly, and will actually hang off the back of the grip about 1-2mm. I've been hording old P229 grips from officers that want to use non-factory grips just to have a supply of them on hand. This grip fit problem has been going on for several years now, and Sig has still not corrected it.
davebee456
11-19-10, 14:26
well, under 250 rounds fired and I am missing an extractor turning my gun into a $800 paper weight.
If the PSeries Pistols were $900 to $1000. I still think there would be a market for them if they still had a great reputation.
I knew of these recent issues in the last few years from gun store employees and internet forums and I bought a brand new P226R anyway because i felt the P-226R would be the safest bet on a New Sig.
If they raised the price $80 to $150 per pistol to maintain the SIg Quality of the 80's and 90's I dont think it would be a mistake, but first they have to admit to the gun buyers there were issues, they cant say oh no its as good as it used to be.
With exception of the FPPP, take down lever, extractor, and springs what parts are you replacing on a regular basis? Most of my Sigs are in the 10-15k range and the only part I've broken have been roll pins on my 228. And there are always going to be parts that fail early in life, infant mortality happens.
I do think it's funny that Gray Guns considers the parts issue over blown. But that is the area that most people harp on.
IMO most of Sig's issues is allowing pistols to leave the factory that shouldn't. Wrong guide rods, wrong recoil springs, et al. Stuff that slightly higher QC would eliminate.
A local county department transitioned to SIG P229s and had to replace all the recoil springs at less than a 1000 rounds through the pistols. We changed out to "new" recoil springs which crapped out at 500 rounds. Those recoil springs were replaced and so far no issues with the "newer" ones
well, under 250 rounds fired and I am missing an extractor turning my gun into a $800 paper weight.
If the PSeries Pistols were $900 to $1000. I still think there would be a market for them if they still had a great reputation.
I knew of these recent issues in the last few years from gun store employees and internet forums and I bought a brand new P226R anyway because i felt the P-226R would be the safest bet on a New Sig.
If they raised the price $80 to $150 per pistol to maintain the SIg Quality of the 80's and 90's I dont think it would be a mistake, but first they have to admit to the gun buyers there were issues, they cant say oh no its as good as it used to be.
Sig Sauer of Germany found a way to cut the cost of production service pistols dramatically by stamping slides instead of billet machining them. Sig USA starting making billet machined slides domestically to fufill the US market demand for .40 and .357 Sigs which the Germans had no interest in producing. Since Sig USA stopped importing slides into the USA, they have been billet machining all of their slides greatly increasing the cost of an already expensive pistol. Any time you can make metal stampings, or polymer moldings you save a boat load of money. The original Sig P-series was an innovation on cost reduction of a service pistol. Germany still makes stamped slide Sigs, and there have been a limited number of them imported into the USA as the P228R. I haven't handled one myself, but those who have tested it say that it has been reliable and holding up well.
In order to get a pistol in the hands of military and law enforcement, your pistol must be a top performer, and it must be created through cheap and efficient manufacturing processes. The Sig P-series "can" be a top performer if manufactured right, but its manufacturing processes are out of date and not competative with the rest of the market. Unless the cost, efficiency, and quality of the manufacturing process improves, I don't see Sigs being used by a lot of LE or military in the future.
To look at another pistol of roughly the same generation - the Beretta 92FS - both have aluminum frames, but I gather that the Beretta is cheaper to manufacture?
That's really too bad about the loss of QC with SIGs. Fortunately, I have never seen or experienced ANY of the previously stated issues with my newer SIGs.
I have a P229 that I bought in 2006 and it has run flawlessly for over 6,000 rounds now. I also have a P238 that I bought when they first came out, and it has run flawlessly for over 1,000 rounds.
I'm not doubting any of the previously discussed issues, however I personally own, and have many many friends who own newer SIGs, and I've never heard of any of these problems that you guys are talking about.
Guess I just got lucky :happy:
Sig Sauer of Germany found a way to cut the cost of production service pistols dramatically by stamping slides instead of billet machining them. Sig USA starting making billet machined slides domestically to fufill the US market demand for .40 and .357 Sigs which the Germans had no interest in producing. Since Sig USA stopped importing slides into the USA, they have been billet machining all of their slides greatly increasing the cost of an already expensive pistol. Any time you can make metal stampings, or polymer moldings you save a boat load of money. The original Sig P-series was an innovation on cost reduction of a service pistol. Germany still makes stamped slide Sigs, and there have been a limited number of them imported into the USA as the P228R. I haven't handled one myself, but those who have tested it say that it has been reliable and holding up well.
I really doubt you know Sig's business details. But you are correct polymer molding, and stamped parts tend to be cheaper than milled parts. But I doubt that you can include the Sig slide in that equation. And they certainly did go with stamped steel on the P220 to lower the cost from the P210, but that was in the 1970's when milling requires skilled laborers.
Sig slides are a bit more complicated than stamping a bunch of Glock trigger bars out of a sheet of steel. In fact Sig slides themselves are made out of two parts (labor cost), which are then welded together (labor cost). And then they take a breech block (which is likely milled aka labor cost if they haven't gone CNC). Of course the stamping isn't quite as accurate they likely have a higher defect rate than CNC milled slides.
Compare that to the stainless slides, which have a dramatically lower defect rate, have a very low labor rate per a slide, and are much stronger. With the stainless slide things like breaking off the rails because the roll pins broke, and the breech block got loose are unheard of. Also American labor is much cheaper than German labor.
Of course that doesn't factor in inventory costs of tracking the two parts of the stamped slides, nor the breech blocks. And of course there is the inventory costs of having to deal with two different slide sources (and parts for each slide).
A local gun shop in Columbus is selling used P229s and P226s for $439 and $399 respectively. They advertise them as “Police Trades”. Based on this treads topic of SIG's QC issues, should I avoid these like the plague, or based on the price, check them out and if so, what should I be looking for? FWIW, they come with 3 mags and in .40 S&W.
Thanks
gtmtnbiker98
11-19-10, 20:56
A local gun shop in Columbus is selling used P229s and P226s for $439 and $399 respectively. They advertise them as “Police Trades”. Based on this treads topic of SIG's QC issues, should I avoid these like the plague, or based on the price, check them out and if so, what should I be looking for? FWIW, they come with 3 mags and in .40 S&W.
Thanks
Vance's? If so, pre 2005 = good-to-go.
variablebinary
11-19-10, 21:19
SIG Sauer Germany has only had one stamped pistol in their inventory for a few years, and that is the 228 and 228R, but of which were kept alive to fulfill contractual obligations.
CNC machining stainless steel slides is much cheaper and easier than stamped slides.
Some of SIG's problems in the 21st century
1. Alloy and steel DA/SA pistols are complex, and expensive to manufacture.
2. Adding Swiss/German QC to an already expensive firearm exacerbates the problem.
3. SIG USA moved away from global uniformity, which wrecked the economy of scale, which means SIG USA has to use the P-series profits to subsidize start up ventures like the GSR, 556, 516, 517, 290, 250 and all the bling editions. Every time something flops like the P250, you pay for it in P226R increased prices.
SIG needs to evolve, because the game has changed with Glock being the 800lbs gorilla in the room.
SIG should have begun phasing out the P-series years ago, not bothered with the P2022, and introduced polymer versions of the P226 and 228.
The fact that SIG is nearly the last pistol maker doing all metal guns is writing on the wall.
But rather than change, they would rather sell defective, poorly built and poorly QC'ed versions of their well known line just to make a quick buck at the buyers expense.
As an example of how much cheaper a polymer pistol is.
Cheapest wholesale price for all metal SIG: P239 $594.53
Cheapest wholesale price of polymer SIG: P250 $318.50
Price of the 2022, which is SIG's sorta attempt at making a polymer classic P-series: $349.84
Yeah, that's a huge difference.
A local gun shop in Columbus is selling used P229s and P226s for $439 and $399 respectively. They advertise them as “Police Trades”. Based on this treads topic of SIG's QC issues, should I avoid these like the plague, or based on the price, check them out and if so, what should I be looking for? FWIW, they come with 3 mags and in .40 S&W.
Thanks
Here's an example of a 1990s P226 9mm, and a P229 .40S&W. The P226 is at the top of each pic.
http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/sgalbra76/IMG_0167.jpg
http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/sgalbra76/IMG_0168.jpg
http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/sgalbra76/IMG_0169.jpg
There are a few things to look for if you want an older, better quality Sig Sauer pistol. The more characterists that are in your favor, the better:
1) If the manufacturer/importer reads "Sigarms" on the frame or slide, then there is a high probability that it was manufactured before 2005. Sigarms was the US based Sig company between the years of 1985 and 2007. Even though Cohen took over in 2005, you have the possibility of being okay if you go with a Sigarms gun.
2) If the slide is a two piece carbon stamping, those are only made in Germany(does not apply to the P229). In the photo, you can see the additional part that makes up the breech face on the P226. This design also has an internal extractor, which is hidden from view if you look at the right side of the pistol. You want this slide type for a P226.
3) If the slide reads "Made in W. Germany", then it is a carbon stamped slide and you are good to go.
4) If the pistol has a tac-light rail, then it "may" be a post 2005 Cohen pistol. The light rails didn't really get into full production until about 2004-2005.
5) If the pistol has the old take down lever design(in the picture), then it will be a 1980s-1990s Sig.
There are other things to look for like the back of the trigger and hammer to see if there is a casting line, or if it was billet machined, but those are harder things to look for. Hopefully this helps.
To be competitive in the large LE purchase/contract market with its competition SIG needs a reliable polymer frame, striker-fired DAO or safe action trigger pistol in full-size and sub-compact frame size with a grip system capable of fitting multiple hand sizes with the added to transfer magazines from the larger to the smaller platform. SIG does not have a pistol capable of this and it is killing them.
variablebinary
11-20-10, 03:18
To be competitive in the large LE purchase/contract market with its competition SIG needs a reliable polymer frame, striker-fired DAO or safe action trigger pistol in full-size and sub-compact frame size with a grip system capable of fitting multiple hand sizes with the added to transfer magazines from the larger to the smaller platform. SIG does not have a pistol capable of this and it is killing them.
There is already talk of SIG redoing the P250 to be a striker gun.
That would certainly be a good start given the way the grips can be changed to different sizes. The P290 will have modular side panels as well, which would be a welcome change as well
Grumpy MSG
11-20-10, 03:51
Chances are good that almost all of the pistols you are looking at will be in good shape. They were used by a Law Enforcement Agency, and probably had decent maintenance because of that. Most Police Departments qualify once or twice a year, so the round counts through the pistols probably won't be that high, unless you end up with one of the pistols from an officer who shoots it alot on his own time. If that is the case, it probably got better than average maintenance. Departments don't just change pistols every year or two, so they are probably a couple of years old, so you probably are getting a pistol that was assembled before all the QC issues started cropping up.
There is already talk of SIG redoing the P250 to be a striker gun.
That would certainly be a good start given the way the grips can be changed to different sizes. The P290 will have modular side panels as well, which would be a welcome change as well
The P250 has different frames and a removable fire control unit that can be swapped from unit to unit as the serialized piece. The big selling point has been one fire control, different size guns. The reality has been that the costs and availability of the FCU/frame combos and bare frames and magazines in Sub/Compact/Full-size just hasn't been there or has had a price point the same as buying two guns anyway, which if you wanted a full/mid and a bug to carry simultaneously you'd end up buying two guns.
Striker fired would be a move in the right direction. Abandoning the swappable FCU would be a good move, especially since the concept isn't legal in several states which constitute the largest LE sales markets anyway. In Europe the P250 does not have the removable.swappable FCU. Also, the trigger has to go. I have a DAO SIG P229 and the trigger is leaps and bounds ahead of the DAO trigger in the P250. In the end the P250 is too much gimmick, too little substance for consideration for large scale LE sales.
Vance's? If so, pre 2005 = good-to-go.
Yup, Vance has an ad in the Sports section of Friday's (19 Nov) of the Columbus Dispatch.
Here's an example of a 1990s P226 9mm, and a P229 .40S&W. The P226 is at the top of each pic.
http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/sgalbra76/IMG_0167.jpg
http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/sgalbra76/IMG_0168.jpg
http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/sgalbra76/IMG_0169.jpg
There are a few things to look for if you want an older, better quality Sig Sauer pistol. The more characterists that are in your favor, the better:
1) If the manufacturer/importer reads "Sigarms" on the frame or slide, then there is a high probability that it was manufactured before 2005. Sigarms was the US based Sig company between the years of 1985 and 2007. Even though Cohen took over in 2005, you have the possibility of being okay if you go with a Sigarms gun.
2) If the slide is a two piece carbon stamping, those are only made in Germany(does not apply to the P229). In the photo, you can see the additional part that makes up the breech face on the P226. This design also has an internal extractor, which is hidden from view if you look at the right side of the pistol. You want this slide type for a P226.
3) If the slide reads "Made in W. Germany", then it is a carbon stamped slide and you are good to go.
4) If the pistol has a tac-light rail, then it "may" be a post 2005 Cohen pistol. The light rails didn't really get into full production until about 2004-2005.
5) If the pistol has the old take down lever design(in the picture), then it will be a 1980s-1990s Sig.
There are other things to look for like the back of the trigger and hammer to see if there is a casting line, or if it was billet machined, but those are harder things to look for. Hopefully this helps.
Exactly the information I was looking for. Thanks! Being a non SIG guy, its good to know that you can get straight answers without any BS.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
11-21-10, 00:49
Well, from my experience, my new US made P220 and P239 have been fantastic guns. Im not saying they havent made crap, but they havent sold me any crap. Now, if only I could shoot that first DA shot accurately lol.
My Department just transitioned from the Beretta 92 D to the SIG 229r DAK in 9mm with the magazine safety. So far in the first 500 rds through each pistol 20 in total we have had 1 problem a broken sear spring. We have had to adjust 5 or 6 weapons sights because they were not properly centered on the slide and have had a couple of strange jams that are most likely magazine related. After 8 years with the Beretta the DAK Trigger is the only improvement I can see. Qualification scores for most Officers jumped appreciably and hopefully the issue with the magazines has already worked out, only happened a couple of times in one weapon then went away. The guns are very accurate in comparison to our well worn Beretta's and the pistols were well received. I'm not a big fan of the slide release position on the SIG classic line my high thumb grip is to blame but because of the size of my hands it is the only way I can shoot the pistol well. I would much rather that they had adopted the 226 but it was not my decision, also not a big fan of the SRT as it pinches my trigger finger with each shot. For those with more dainty hands it is a better fit but my ham fists miss the Beretta.
Chances are good that almost all of the pistols you are looking at will be in good shape. They were used by a Law Enforcement Agency, and probably had decent maintenance because of that. Most Police Departments qualify once or twice a year, so the round counts through the pistols probably won't be that high. Our pistols have a minimum of 1,000 rounds a year fired through them. 2 Day light quals and 2 night fires split up so we shoot once a quarter. We also completely tear down 10% of our issued weapons yearly to inspect for damage and or unusual wear, and all weapons are inspected monthly for cleanliness and propper lubrication. And of course if a weapon breaks down everything is well documented and sent through Central Office. We received our SIG 229r DAK pistols as a rider on the DHS contract.
Bulldog7972
11-21-10, 08:47
Well, from my experience, my new US made P220 and P239 have been fantastic guns. Im not saying they havent made crap, but they havent sold me any crap. Now, if only I could shoot that first DA shot accurately lol.
Take a look at "TJ's" guns out in California. He makes a Sig trigger that he claimed reduced the amount of "perceived pull weight". I was skeptical but I bought one anyway. I found out that he is right. I installed one on my 228 and it made that first DA only shot feel to be much more lighter. YMMV but I really like it. I think Brownells also sells them.
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