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Dionysusigma
11-10-10, 01:03
Sometime within the next week, I'm going to go actually fire my M16A4gery, and was curious as to what sort of accuracy I might be able to achieve.

As far as relevant stats go:
- BCM gov't profile barrel w/ A2 flash suppressor, 1:7 twist, chrome-lined
- KAC M5 RAS handguards (non free-float)
- Geissele SSA trigger
- Trijicon TA31RCO-A4
- Federal XM193 and possibly IMI M855
- Max available range of 100yds

Now, I know this isn't going to be on-par with an SR-25, but I'm also hoping it won't be as bad as a Mini 14--what sort of accuracy have you all seen with this particular rifle/setup, or similar?

Frens
11-10-10, 02:44
M855 is not ideal for grouping.
if the barrel is "good" and you find the right ammo I guess you could get 1.5 MOA with that setup.
with handloads, bipod and FF you can easly go sub-MOA

THE question is: how good are you? :p

let us know how it goes ;)

Sensei
11-10-10, 02:48
I get 2-3 MOA shooting M855 from a similar rifle and optic. Things tighten up a bit using TAP T2 or SSA 77 grain SMK.

mizer67
11-10-10, 18:25
2 MOA supported with irons with an identical barrel and FCG.

55 gr. M193 clone.

Utah1
11-15-10, 10:14
Rifle is a Colt Ar15 lower with a Colt M16A4 upper. Scope is a 3X Tijicon compact. Ammo was 69g Handload. Distance 600 yards.

http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/9425/aat600.jpg (http://img841.imageshack.us/i/aat600.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)img]

eric0311
11-15-10, 13:31
I've got a BCM A4 upper as well, with KAC M5 handguards and Trijicon RCO-A4 optic (Stag/CMT lower)... I've been able to squeeze 3/4-1" groups with Hornady 77gr match rounds and Winchester 60gr Ranger Partition rounds. M855 as well as other ball ammo will usually group around 2 inches. Not bad for a GI-grade rifle... I had similiar experiences with my issued A4. The real fun begins when you can find a range with longer distances and use the RCO to it's full potential.

Dionysusigma
11-16-10, 17:35
Well, it's a moot point for me, anyway.

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=67112

Maybe I should contact the local recruiter...

http://thethoughtexperiment.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/star_wars_propaganda_91.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormtrooper_effect

Steeltoe73
12-28-10, 13:50
Rifle is a Colt Ar15 lower with a Colt M16A4 upper. Scope is a 3X Tijicon compact. Ammo was 69g Handload. Distance 600 yards.

http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/9425/aat600.jpg (http://img841.imageshack.us/i/aat600.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)img]

Not to sound too goofy, but that photo looks great. Light , time of day, rain coming in, rifle. That looked like a great day. Regarding OP's question. I agree with Frens. The set you mention will do if you will do. You might wring a little tighter with a free float handguard/rail. With gov't profile barrel don't know if it will exactly be DMR material.

BAC
12-28-10, 15:13
Freefloat and lap the barrel and put a good trigger in it and you could probably tighten up groups with any ammo. Borebrush (Chad) on Lightfighter got minute-of-glowstick out of his Spankmeister (http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4706084761/m/9996061915?r=228108402#228108402) doing that.


-B

Alpha Sierra
12-29-10, 09:20
Any AR with a quality, free-floated match grade barrel and fed precision-made ammo in a load it likes will shoot sub MOA at 600 yards.

The recipe usually goes as follows: 20" HBAR profile match grade barrel with Wylde chamber, 24.5 grains of Varget in LC or Winchester cases, Remington or Federal match primers, 75/77 grain HPBT match bullets from Hornady, Sierra, Nosler, or Lapua, free float tube under handguards or free float railed handguards.

11B101ABN
01-05-11, 06:28
Rifle is a Colt Ar15 lower with a Colt M16A4 upper. Scope is a 3X Tijicon compact. Ammo was 69g Handload. Distance 600 yards.

http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/9425/aat600.jpg (http://img841.imageshack.us/i/aat600.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)img]

It looks like your carry handle is moved back a notch instead of flush w/ the front of the upper reciever, if it matters.

I have the same weapon. I love it.

Dano5326
01-05-11, 11:05
IIRC the acceptance test for a m16 is 6moa

m885, POS 3 component, is 4moa ammo

most actual USGI m4a1's will do 2.5-4moa with m193 or more-so mk262

1-2moa is much rarer than bantered about the www

yes a premium barrel will shoot better, yes a freefloat rail makes for more consistent results.. but then you wouldn't be shooting an m16.

As far as I know only SOCOM has type standardized a FF rail on m4's. Some other special units will have varying flavors of what they think suits them.

$CashMoney$
01-05-11, 11:40
FWIW, the last time I shot an M16A4 was in 2006 at the All Army Small Arms Championships and then a few weeks later at the JSOC Small Arms Championships. Many of the better shooters were shooting scores nearing 200 on CMP targets out to 500 meters. This would reqiuire accuracy nearing 2 moa.

Here's the kicker: In both matches we all used rack-grade M16A4's with iron sights right out of the arms room. So yeah, the requirements may be 6 moa, but in MY limited experience most well cared for issue guns shoot a lot better than that.

Happy shooting!!! Be sure to post pics of your targets when you're done.

MTechnik
01-05-11, 15:23
As everyone before me said, that ammo is holding you back the most. Next is the free-float, and then possibly the CL coating in the barrel.

If you want precision distance shots, possibly plan a new stainless steel, free-float upper?

kartoffel
01-05-11, 19:19
It looks like your carry handle is moved back a notch instead of flush w/ the front of the upper reciever, if it matters.

I have the same weapon. I love it.

If that puts the RCO where it needs to be for correct eye relief, so be it. I was too busy oohing and aahing over the wide open spaces. Been to Utah a handful of times for work, but never had the chance to go shooting out there. Man I wish there were miles of BLM land back east.

BAC
01-05-11, 19:39
As far as I know only SOCOM has type standardized a FF rail on m4's. Some other special units will have varying flavors of what they think suits them.

Do you know if this is because FF rails are being actively resisted or it's just not that high a priority?

On chrome lining: there are a number of companies who make sub-2 MOA chrome-lined AR-15 barrels (off the top of my head, BCM, Centurion, Colt, Noveske, Daniel Defense), so I doubt chrome lining can be to blame. Aren't FN bolt guns also chrome lined?


-B

Frens
01-06-11, 04:48
On chrome lining: there are a number of companies who make sub-2 MOA chrome-lined AR-15 barrels (off the top of my head, BCM, Centurion, Colt, Noveske, Daniel Defense), so I doubt chrome lining can be to blame. Aren't FN bolt guns also chrome lined?


I agree and you're correct on the FN bolt guns.

I think making an accurate CL is a difficult & more expensive process that only a few mfg can afford.

11B101ABN
01-06-11, 05:49
If that puts the RCO where it needs to be for correct eye relief, so be it. I was too busy oohing and aahing over the wide open spaces. Been to Utah a handful of times for work, but never had the chance to go shooting out there. Man I wish there were miles of BLM land back east.

Werd.

I wasn't trying to bag on the blaster,, but it was something that stood out to me.

Good times.

Molon
01-06-11, 10:43
The M16A4 barrel itself, is essentially the same barrel found on the M16A2. It’s a 20” government profile barrel, with a NATO chamber, chrome-lining and a 1:7” twist.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/vglo7saj8g.jpg


The following accuracy evaluation was conducted using a Colt M16A2 barrel. The barrel was free-floated with a KAC RAS and the standard front-sight base was replaced with a GG&G gas block/flip-up front sight.

http://home.comcast.net/~gocartmozart/A4_04_resized.jpg


This accuracy evaluation used statistically significant shot-group sizes and every single shot in a fired group was included in the measurements. There was absolutely no use of any Group Reduction Techniques (e.g. fliers, target movement, Butterfly Shots). The shooting set-up will be described in detail below. As many of the significant variables as was practicable were controlled for.

All shooting was conducted from a concrete bench-rest from a distance of 100 yards (confirmed with a laser rangefinder.) The free-float handguard of the rifle rested in a Sinclair Windage Benchrest, while the stock of the rifle rested in a Protektor bunny-ear rear bag. Sighting was accomplished via a Leupold VARI-X III set at 25X magnification and adjusted to be parallax-free at 100 yards. A mirage shade was attached to the objective-bell of the scope. Wind conditions on the shooting range were continuously monitored using a Wind Probe. The set-up was very similar to that pictured below.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/xo4duzdgtp.jpg

Three 10-shot groups of hand-loaded, match-grade ammunition topped Sierra 55 grain BlitzKings were fired from the Colt M16A2 barrel at 100 yards. Those three groups had extreme speads of

1.21”
1.24”
1.32”

for a 10-shot group average extreme spread of 1.26”. This particular barrel was one of the most accurate M16A2 barrels that I’ve tested. I have yet to see anyone who claimed to get consistent MOA (let alone sub-MOA) accuracy with this type of barrel be able to produce statistically significantly data to support their claim when asked to do so.


....

1371USMCFL
01-06-11, 17:07
You should get around 2moa with halfway decent ammo. When I BZO'd before heading downrange, I was shooting around 2" groups at 100 yards. It was your standard USMC issued FHN made M16A4 w/ TA31RCO, 62gr green tips.

Dano5326
01-07-11, 07:54
The AR series are an inherently accurate system even in stock form. However the acceptance standard, and appropriately so, is 4-6moa (I forget). In case thousands be need spit out by whoever bids on short notice wartime production.

Ammunition and then FF rail was identified by a SOCOM study long ago as a marked, easily adopted, improvement in accuracy. Additionally the heat sink qualities of FFrails have benefits


FF rails aren't, specifically, being "resisted". It's just a matter of priorities and infrastructure. Smaller, more agile and capable units, with different mission sets, can adapt individual training and logistical requirements quickly.

What would the cost vs value of changing a rail system service wide be when maybe 1% of users could utilize or notice the improvement. The current rails get the job done.

The Dumb Gun Collector
01-13-11, 16:41
1-2moa is much rarer than bantered about the www

Or on the range. It is amazing how much better people's groups are before I start watching or asking them to show me what they can do.

mrosamilia
01-13-11, 16:48
I shoot some heavy varmint matches with a Hammonds 6PPC. Even in this community of the holy grail of accuracy that same thing happens Greg.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

Armati
01-13-11, 18:37
I was looking at a similar build. The only think you may want to look at is a 1/8 bbl with a more full contour.

I feel the KAC M5 is plenty rigid. You could do worse.

Personal opinion, I think the Army over built the DMR. The USMC has dropped a lot of bad guys using the above setup.

For personal use, you may want to look at the Federal Sierra Match King 69gr BTHP. They were the heat a few years ago but have fallen out of favor against some of the newer loads. Never the less, they are plenty accurate and still lethal.

saleen
01-22-11, 23:48
I built one of these last year using the BCM upper as well. Accuracy with IMI M855, Lithuanian M855, and Spanish SS109 generally hovers around 2 to 2.5 MOA. With my handloads using 77g SMKs the groups generally go down to 1.5 MOA, but occasionally run a bit tighter than that. This holds true out to 300 which is the furthest distance I've shot this gun at to date.

For a service type rifle, I'm plenty happy with how it shoots.


Saleen

roadstar
01-31-11, 05:48
I finished my M16A4 clone about a month ago: BCM complete upper and BCG, TA31RCO-A4, KAC M5 RAS, Bushmaster A2 lower, Harris Bi-Pod.

I wanted to be able to take full advantavge of the BDC so I purchased a case of PMC M855. I have had the rifle out twice now, the most recient being yesterday. The best I could do was 4" at 100meters with a 5 shot group.

I'm frustrated.:confused:

Frens
01-31-11, 08:26
The best I could do was 4" at 100meters with a 5 shot group.


M855 is not a match grade ammo :( last time I used M855 I got 3.5'' groups at 100m as well :rolleyes:
try something else and you'll get better results ;)