View Full Version : S&W's New 351C .22 Magnum Revolver
Ordered these at shot as I like the .22 Magnum load (especially for female shooters). Well after 11 months, they showed up!
Got a chance to put some rounds through the gun. Has a pleasant recoil (more muzzle flip than anything). IMHO, these make a much better choice for female shooters (that are recoil sensitive) than any of the pocket auto's or .38 revolvers.
The 351C holds 7rds and weighs in at 11oz.
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/103351.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/103351a.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/103351b.jpg
My wife would love one. She had a 442 but hated the recoil. What are these running?
Frank Castle
11-10-10, 09:20
Does the front post have a tritium insert or is it just a white dot?
Based on my experience with Airlite .22s: will she be able to pull the trigger?
Dave
Boonie Packer
Hey there's no lock on that gun. ;)
I've no idea what the penetration is like on .22 mag JHPs or solids but appart from that factor, I think it's a neat concept.
My wife would love one. She had a 442 but hated the recoil. What are these running?
I have not seen the invoice yet, but my guess is that we will sell them for around $500.
C4
Does the front post have a tritium insert or is it just a white dot?
White dot.
C4
Hey there's no lock on that gun. ;)
I've no idea what the penetration is like on .22 mag JHPs or solids but appart from that factor, I think it's a neat concept.
Right. No lock. S&W is slowly removing these from all their revolvers.
C4
Based on my experience with Airlite .22s: will she be able to pull the trigger?
Dave
Boonie Packer
It still has the 10-12LBS trigger.
You can always have trigger work done. Apex Tactical is also working on a new trigger mod for revolvers (that is user installed I think).
C4
Alpha Sierra
11-10-10, 18:14
Apex Tactical is also working on a new trigger mod for revolvers (that is user installed I think).
C4
Interested......
anatolian B
11-10-10, 20:52
I couldn't find one of those for my mother-in-law last month. I bought her a Taurus 941. It's ok...but I wish I could have found her the S&W.
Grant, will you be selling the 43 C (.22lr) version as well?
Grant, will you be selling the 43 C (.22lr) version as well?
I believe that I have these on order as well.
C4
Can you fire 22LR out of this revolver for cheap practice ammo.
Can you fire 22LR out of this revolver for cheap practice ammo.
Not really. The .22 Mag case is thicker, has a larger diameter, and the chambers are oversized for .22 lr. The .22 lr will fire, but the cases usually rupture.
C4I Grant,
Any issue with sticky extraction of fired cases with the 351?
Check out this screw up from the factory. The gun is supposed to come with an XS front sight and came with Fiber instead. :dance3:
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/103351_FO.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/103351_FO1.jpg
Not a bad lookin' screw up.
Not a bad lookin' screw up.
Haha yeah seriously. I mean, it clearly has unrepairable damage to it. You can't sell it in that condition. You should probably just send it on over here instead of discarding it, Grant. ;)
nobody knows
09-11-11, 05:44
This looks like a good little pistol for the old lady, especially since speer is coming out with a 22 mag load. So is hornady critical defense.
Lost River
09-11-11, 06:51
These do have a lot of merit for many who would otherwise not carry a gun at all.
Many elderly folk would be very well served with such a piece, provided the trigger could be tuned to a reasonable poundage.
Cagemonkey
09-11-11, 09:53
Looks like a great little revolver. Grant, you have any recommendations for a good .22 Mag load for this?
MeanStreaker
09-11-11, 11:12
This does look like a great little revolver. Had my eye on it since I first learned about it.
I haven't done a lot of research on .22 Mag. Obviously 22lr is not ideal for self-defense for many reasons, including reliability of going bang. (But carrying a .22 is better than nothing.)
I can't imagine it would be much different, but is .22 Mag any better in reliability?
Looks like a great little revolver. Grant, you have any recommendations for a good .22 Mag load for this?
I am waiting for the SPEER Gold Dot ammo to come out.
C4
Bruce in WV
09-15-11, 15:51
The Gold Dot load has been out for a while. I took delivery of a bunch 5 weeks ago and sighted in my 22Mag for that load, but practice with the cheaper stuff and just accept the different POI.
PA PATRIOT
09-15-11, 16:06
Like to see DocGKR test the Gold Dot .22mag loading in the S&W before I let anyone I love carry it. I do concede that it would be better then nothing for those who cant handle a .38spl loaded with factory wad-cutters.
The Gold Dot load has been out for a while. I took delivery of a bunch 5 weeks ago and sighted in my 22Mag for that load, but practice with the cheaper stuff and just accept the different POI.
Interesting. Have not seen it out yet.
C4
Right. No lock. S&W is slowly removing these from all their revolvers.
C4
Probably the best news S&W-lovers have heard in a while!
Nephrology
09-15-11, 21:12
Is .22 Mag generally considered an acceptable defensive round? First I've heard of .22 anything being used against anything bigger'n a squirrel.
Is .22 Mag generally considered an acceptable defensive round? First I've heard of .22 anything being used against anything bigger'n a squirrel.
it's a better than nothing round i guess...
at least in a revolver if it fails to fire you just have to pull the trigger again to get another try...
wouldn't mind having one in 22LR for practice....
PdxMotoxer
09-16-11, 21:12
Hornady has a NEW 22 WMR Critical Defense ammo.
http://www.hornady.com/store/22-WMR-45gr-Critical-Defense/
Powder:
Optimized for short-barreled firearms, the 22 WMR features clean burning propellants with low flash and blast to help protect night vision.
Just passing this on from the Ruger Forum about the new SP101 .22 mag
So it seems there is new .22wmr ammo out and more on the way.
*No i wouldn't trust my life to only 45 grains BUT for smaller hands scared of recoil, 45grains IS BETTER than a can of mace or XXXgrains left at home*
RogerinTPA
09-17-11, 07:14
Is .22 Mag generally considered an acceptable defensive round? First I've heard of .22 anything being used against anything bigger'n a squirrel.
Practice eye socket shooting just in case.
Alaskapopo
09-17-11, 22:41
Ordered these at shot as I like the .22 Magnum load (especially for female shooters). Well after 11 months, they showed up!
Got a chance to put some rounds through the gun. Has a pleasant recoil (more muzzle flip than anything). IMHO, these make a much better choice for female shooters (that are recoil sensitive) than any of the pocket auto's or .38 revolvers.
The 351C holds 7rds and weighs in at 11oz.
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/103351.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/103351a.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/103351b.jpg
I have serious reservations about using a 22 mag for defense. Better than a sharp stick but not by much. Someone who is recoil shy would be better served by a similar revolver in 38 special loaded with target waddcutters.
Pat
First off, S&W getting rid of the locks will mean I'll start buying again. I love big bore S&W's, even the current ones but will never purchase one with the lock.
I believe that a .22 for self defense is very marginal.
I also believe the "J"'s are really a firearm for the true shooter, the connoissuer's if you will and the Centennial is even more so. If you give a person a revolver that they can't even manage to properly pull the trigger eyeball shooting is out.
I've carried a Centennial as a back up and primary at times for 20 years +. My department requires the same qual as the duty weapons. With that standard I believe that I am the only person currently qualled with one on the department.
I have serious reservations about using a 22 mag for defense. Better than a sharp stick but not by much. Someone who is recoil shy would be better served by a similar revolver in 38 special loaded with target waddcutters.
Pat
I wouldn't. The .22 magnum is a nasty little bullet that I would not want to take a round from. Many people die from .22LR.
This gun fits a good niche with female shooters that won't even touch .38. In fact, it is such a good option, that a very famous instructor bought one of these for his wife.
While it might not be the "best choice" it is better than not carrying anything at all.
C4
Hornady has a NEW 22 WMR Critical Defense ammo.
http://www.hornady.com/store/22-WMR-45gr-Critical-Defense/
Just passing this on from the Ruger Forum about the new SP101 .22 mag
So it seems there is new .22wmr ammo out and more on the way.
*No i wouldn't trust my life to only 45 grains BUT for smaller hands scared of recoil, 45grains IS BETTER than a can of mace or XXXgrains left at home*
This looks pretty good and I would very much consider the .22 Magnum (especially in a Hornady or Gold Dot configuration) over the .380 auto.
C4
Hornady has a NEW 22 WMR Critical Defense ammo.
http://www.hornady.com/store/22-WMR-45gr-Critical-Defense/
Just passing this on from the Ruger Forum about the new SP101 .22 mag
So it seems there is new .22wmr ammo out and more on the way.
*No i wouldn't trust my life to only 45 grains BUT for smaller hands scared of recoil, 45grains IS BETTER than a can of mace or XXXgrains left at home*
The new SP101 is 22LR. Nothing about a 22WMR yet, but it's a logical next step for Ruger. If they could make a swap-cylinder DA, they'd sell like crack.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
09-19-11, 01:56
My wife has my 642 and is ok with it, but I like this idea a little more than her just carrying my 642 and being "ok".
My wife has my 642 and is ok with it, but I like this idea a little more than her just carrying my 642 and being "ok".
What it comes down to is if they are not "comfortable" shooting the gun, then they won't practice. This makes the gun a liability IMHO.
C4
Bruce in WV
09-19-11, 08:49
You won't be high speed, fit, flexible and bulletproof forever, able to handle a full size 9mm or .45. When you get to the point of advanced years, are shot up, handicapped by disease or accident, damaged by harsh duty to the point of being chairbound, in a walker, or moving slowly, dependent on a cane, a light recoiling, multishot 22WMR will allow you (at a minimum) to send the evil SOB who's thinking about attacking you to the hospital with a very bad bellyache. That's where many folks are in their lives (think aging baby boomers).
I got one for my granddaughter to have right now (with a wonderful Teddy Jacobs trigger job), sighted in and ready to go, and one more put away with a store of GD for that day when it's all I can handle.
Alaskapopo
09-20-11, 03:38
I wouldn't. The .22 magnum is a nasty little bullet that I would not want to take a round from. Many people die from .22LR.
This gun fits a good niche with female shooters that won't even touch .38. In fact, it is such a good option, that a very famous instructor bought one of these for his wife.
While it might not be the "best choice" it is better than not carrying anything at all.
C4
Grant the 22 mag from a pistol is not nasty its puny. Your better off with solid bullets so you will get sufficient penetration forget about Golddots or any JHP. Many people die from a lot of things including cancer but that does not mean a 22 mag is a fight stopper. Most people killed with .22's were executed and defenseless. As for any shooter female or no if they can't handle a gun in a adiquate caliber they are better off with a taser or pepper spray. The whole concept that women can shoot real guns is false. I have taught female as small as 4 feet 8 and 100 pounds to shoot full size 1911's. The problem is not the gun but rather the training and mindset. If those are not there they are better off unarmed. The reason I say this is it takes a mental toughness to be able to defend yourself from a lethal attack. If someone lacks the will to pick up a .38 they probably don't have what it takes to face down a real threat in a fight. As for the famous instructor who cares it still a bad choice.
pat
Alaskapopo
09-20-11, 03:46
You won't be high speed, fit, flexible and bulletproof forever, able to handle a full size 9mm or .45. When you get to the point of advanced years, are shot up, handicapped by disease or accident, damaged by harsh duty to the point of being chairbound, in a walker, or moving slowly, dependent on a cane, a light recoiling, multishot 22WMR will allow you (at a minimum) to send the evil SOB who's thinking about attacking you to the hospital with a very bad bellyache. That's where many folks are in their lives (think aging baby boomers).
I got one for my granddaughter to have right now (with a wonderful Teddy Jacobs trigger job), sighted in and ready to go, and one more put away with a store of GD for that day when it's all I can handle.
A small or mid sized hell even a small 9mm like the Glock 26 is easy to shoot. There are better choices out there than the .22 mag. I would not even trust one of these guns to stop a charging house cat.
Pat
A small or mid sized hell even a small 9mm like the Glock 26 is easy to shoot. There are better choices out there than the .22 mag. I would not even trust one of these guns to stop a charging house cat.
Pat
A swarm of your Alaska mosquitoes might do it.
Grant the 22 mag from a pistol is not nasty its puny. Your better off with solid bullets so you will get sufficient penetration forget about Golddots or any JHP. Many people die from a lot of things including cancer but that does not mean a 22 mag is a fight stopper. Most people killed with .22's were executed and defenseless. As for any shooter female or no if they can't handle a gun in a adiquate caliber they are better off with a taser or pepper spray. The whole concept that women can shoot real guns is false. I have taught female as small as 4 feet 8 and 100 pounds to shoot full size 1911's. The problem is not the gun but rather the training and mindset. If those are not there they are better off unarmed. The reason I say this is it takes a mental toughness to be able to defend yourself from a lethal attack. If someone lacks the will to pick up a .38 they probably don't have what it takes to face down a real threat in a fight. As for the famous instructor who cares it still a bad choice.
pat
I have seen .22 Magnums take 45lbs coyotes. Tons of humans are killed with .22LR's.
Did you look at the ballistic gel test that Hornady displayed? Not bad at all.
The point that you are missing is that not everyone is a gun person. This means that they don't want to practice much (or at all), they are gun shy (scared of the sound and recoil) and really don't have a lot of interest. So .22LR's and .22Magnums offer an option that is MUCH better than their other option (sharp stick). Remember that you can ONLY HELP SOMEONE AS MUCH AS THEY WANT HELPED.
So if this gets them owning and carrying a firearm, it is step in the right direction and maybe some day they will upgrade to a better defensive load.
In regards to one of the WORLD'S best instructors buying his spouse one of these, he might know a thing or two about training and getting people into a firearm that they are comfortable with (as it means they will ACTUALLY shoot and carry it). This is the sign of a good instructor (by the way).
C4
JackFanToM
09-20-11, 11:02
I spent alot of time with the smaller bore weapons (.17, .22LR, .22mag), and it appears many are assuming that the 22lr and mag are similar just do to bullet size....big mistake. The mag will produce a marked difference in velocity, accuracy, and impact, and if you don't believe it is a worthwhile caliber bullet for someone to carry...please volunteer to take a few rounds. I guarantee 7 well placed rounds from a .22 mag will be a helluva lot more effective than wild 9mm fire, and if it gets my wife to carry a weapon...well enough said on that. I think many of the "gun people" here need to check their knowledge at the door when thinking about this....those that are afraid of guns will a. get over their fear quicker with a firearm they feel they can master easy...this may lead to larger calibers, and b. most people in flight or fight will pull that trigger as fast as they can and with a large caliber they will spray bullets everywhere...at least with a .22mag they have a CHANCE of hitting the target. Personally I would rather go up against TASERS, Mace, and even a baseball bat before stepping in front of a scared person with a loaded .22mag.
I spent alot of time with the smaller bore weapons (.17, .22LR, .22mag), and it appears many are assuming that the 22lr and mag are similar just do to bullet size....big mistake. The mag will produce a marked difference in velocity, accuracy, and impact, and if you don't believe it is a worthwhile caliber bullet for someone to carry...please volunteer to take a few rounds. I guarantee 7 well placed rounds from a .22 mag will be a helluva lot more effective than wild 9mm fire, and if it gets my wife to carry a weapon...well enough said on that. I think many of the "gun people" here need to check their knowledge at the door when thinking about this....those that are afraid of guns will a. get over their fear quicker with a firearm they feel they can master easy...this may lead to larger calibers, and b. most people in flight or fight will pull that trigger as fast as they can and with a large caliber they will spray bullets everywhere...at least with a .22mag they have a CHANCE of hitting the target. Personally I would rather go up against TASERS, Mace, and even a baseball bat before stepping in front of a scared person with a loaded .22mag.
Valid points. I think what a lot of men are guilty of is shoe horning a weaker shooter into THEIR preferences. This is an error on their part.
C4
NorthDakota
09-20-11, 13:25
This might be of interest -
Bill Jordan via Ayoob on the .22 mag:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2151315&postcount=24
This might be of interest -
Bill Jordan via Ayoob on the .22 mag:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2151315&postcount=24
Interesting article. The technology in .22 Magnum then (when the article was written) and what it is now is night and day.
C4
Evil1969SS>LS6
09-22-11, 20:23
I shoot alot of 22WMR out of my bolt action Marlin, Kel-Tec PMR, and NAA 22mag "Earl" revolver so, I can atest to the 22 mag being a powerful lil' round. People who never have shot 'nor owned a 22mag firearm have a tendency to lump it in with the 22lr. which is ignorance on thier part.
Hell, it's probably one of my favorite rounds.;)
Nephrology
09-22-11, 20:29
The problem is not the gun but rather the training and mindset. If those are not there they are better off unarmed. The reason I say this is it takes a mental toughness to be able to defend yourself from a lethal attack. If someone lacks the will to pick up a .38 they probably don't have what it takes to face down a real threat in a fight. As for the famous instructor who cares it still a bad choice.
pat
Going to have to agree with you here.
I have seen very short, slim women put a full mag of .45 in the A zone at 10 yards on the very first time they've shot a gun. I have also seen a quarterbacker MISS the VERY SAME target with every single round out of the same gun.
You have to want to hit the target. Unless you have crippling arthritis or are made of glass, there is no reason you can't at least shoot a 9mm to decent effect at self defense distances. If you can't bring yourself to do that, you probably will crumple under attack no matter the caliber.
I have seen .22 Magnums take 45lbs coyotes. Tons of humans are killed with .22LR's.
Did you look at the ballistic gel test that Hornady displayed? Not bad at all.
C4
Can you share the gel pictures, please?
.22 LR has killed people in the past, for sure, but I would still never in a million years recommend that somebody go out and look for a .22 LR revolver specifically for self defense just because they were intimidated by a larger caliber.
I am willing to suspend my disbelief for .22 mag - who knows, maybe it is decent - but .22 LR? Hell no. I'm sorry, but I will not recommend a .22 LR for defense, period. If it happens to be what is in your hand when the balloon goes up, fine, but to actively select a weapon for self defense, in .22 LR? Never.
Going to have to agree with you here.
I have seen very short, slim women put a full mag of .45 in the A zone at 10 yards on the very first time they've shot a gun. I have also seen a quarterbacker MISS the VERY SAME target with every single round out of the same gun.
You have to want to hit the target. Unless you have crippling arthritis or are made of glass, there is no reason you can't at least shoot a 9mm to decent effect at self defense distances. If you can't bring yourself to do that, you probably will crumple under attack no matter the caliber.
Can you share the gel pictures, please?
.22 LR has killed people in the past, for sure, but I would still never in a million years recommend that somebody go out and look for a .22 LR revolver specifically for self defense just because they were intimidated by a larger caliber.
I am willing to suspend my disbelief for .22 mag - who knows, maybe it is decent - but .22 LR? Hell no. I'm sorry, but I will not recommend a .22 LR for defense, period. If it happens to be what is in your hand when the balloon goes up, fine, but to actively select a weapon for self defense, in .22 LR? Never.
The gel pic is on the Hornady website.
At night, a .22LR or .22 Magnum revolver looks just like a .357. Many times, the presence of a weapon is all that takes to end the conflict.
Also remember, that we aren't actually talking about a .22LR. We are talking about a .22 Magnum (totally different).
While I am big fan of using a larger caliber, the fact remains that not everyone is interested in learning to shoot one of these guns. You get them into a gun they will ACTUALLY shoot.
C4
Alaskapopo
09-22-11, 21:37
The gel pic is on the Hornady website.
At night, a .22LR or .22 Magnum revolver looks just like a .357. Many times, the presence of a weapon is all that takes to end the conflict.
Also remember, that we aren't actually talking about a .22LR. We are talking about a .22 Magnum (totally different).
While I am big fan of using a larger caliber, the fact remains that not everyone is interested in learning to shoot one of these guns. You get them into a gun they will ACTUALLY shoot.
C4
To put things into perspective. The 22 mag is a step down from the 5.7 and that round has had a less than stellar record with real world users. As for the picture the temp stretch cavity means little to nothing at hand gun levels. You should jump up to Dr. Roberts recomendations in the terminal ballistics forum.
Can the 22 mag kill sure if you put your bullets in the CNS. The problem is it pokes a small hole and does little damage so anything short of a CNS hit is not going to give you the results you wanted. The statement you make about the 22 killing people is true but you have to realize there is a big difference in stopping a goal oriented individual and killing them. Sure a shot to the liver will kill someone if not treated but not for many hours later. Its the same with these small calibers they have killed a lot of people. They have not stopped a lot of determined attackers. If someone is only willing to shoot a 22 mag I would look at some alternate forms of self defense for them. That way when the attacker disarms them he may not kill them with their own gun. Again it takes the right mind set and if you're not willing or able to step up to the plate and handle a pistol in a adiquate caliber you are better off doing something else.
Here is the link to the page you were talking about.
http://www.hornady.com/store/22-WMR-45gr-Critical-Defense/
By the way the round that the 22 mag looks like in your words in not a 357 mag its a .380. And in the pic it clearly does not even perform as well as that under powered round.
Pat
PA PATRIOT
09-22-11, 21:47
You won't be high speed, fit, flexible and bulletproof forever, able to handle a full size 9mm or .45. When you get to the point of advanced years, are shot up, handicapped by disease or accident, damaged by harsh duty to the point of being chairbound, in a walker, or moving slowly, dependent on a cane, a light recoiling, multishot 22WMR will allow you (at a minimum) to send the evil SOB who's thinking about attacking you to the hospital with a very bad bellyache. That's where many folks are in their lives (think aging baby boomers).
I got one for my granddaughter to have right now (with a wonderful Teddy Jacobs trigger job), sighted in and ready to go, and one more put away with a store of GD for that day when it's all I can handle.
I can agree with that, good reasoning why the mouse gun would be functional to a certain class of shooters!
To put things into perspective. The 22 mag is a step down from the 5.7 and that round has had a less than stellar record with real world users. As for the picture the temp stretch cavity means little to nothing at hand gun levels. You should jump up to Dr. Roberts recomendations in the terminal ballistics forum.
Can the 22 mag kill sure if you put your bullets in the CNS. The problem is it pokes a small hole and does little damage so anything short of a CNS hit is not going to give you the results you wanted. The statement you make about the 22 killing people is true but you have to realize there is a big difference in stopping a goal oriented individual and killing them. Sure a shot to the liver will kill someone if not treated but not for many hours later. Its the same with these small calibers they have killed a lot of people. They have not stopped a lot of determined attackers. If someone is only willing to shoot a 22 mag I would look at some alternate forms of self defense for them. That way when the attacker disarms them he may not kill them with their own gun. Again it takes the right mind set and if you're not willing or able to step up to the plate and handle a pistol in a adiquate caliber you are better off doing something else.
Here is the link to the page you were talking about.
http://www.hornady.com/store/22-WMR-45gr-Critical-Defense/
By the way the round that the 22 mag looks like in your words in not a 357 mag its a .380. And in the pic it clearly does not even perform as well as that under powered round.
Pat
Actually, the truth really is that ALL HG rounds suck (less maybe the 10mm). So as with anything, shot placement is king.
A revolver in hand with .22Magnums loaded in it is a good option for many people that are not comfortable with a larger caliber. Truth is truth and to attempt to force people into a larger caliber that they will never shoot is an error in judgment on the teacher or instructors part.
I hunt with the .22 Magnum. Make sure you spend some time with this round before totally disqualifying it.
C4
Alaskapopo
09-22-11, 21:54
Actually, the truth really is that ALL HG rounds suck (less maybe the 10mm). So as with anything, shot placement is king.
A revolver in hand with .22Magnums loaded in it is a good option for many people that are not comfortable with a larger caliber. Truth is truth and to attempt to force people into a larger caliber that they will never shoot is an error in judgment on the teacher or instructors part.
I hunt with the .22 Magnum. Make sure you spend some time with this round before totally disqualifying it.
C4
Grant I agree with the parts you posted above in red. As for hunting with the 22 mag I doubt you use a revolver with a 1 7/8 inch barrel for hunting. Also hunting small game and defending yourself are totally different worlds and should not be compared. I have played with the 22 mag as I have owned a few Ruger Single Six's over the years.
I agree you need to find a weapon that the student can handle. What I am saying however is if they can't handle a 9mm or a 38 special then they really are not to the level needed to even pick up a gun in self defense. The 22 mag requires extreem shot placement something that most new shooters or the recoil shy do not have.
This is my always gun. Its the smallest gun I ever carry when even my Glock 26 is too big.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Revolvers/Smith340.jpg
I carry it with 357 Short Barrel Speer 135 grain gold dots. (more of a +p+ 38 load in reality). Now is this for everyone no. But I was able to get my mother to shoot a siminar revolver in 38 special with standard pressure 125 grian hollow points. She is small and frail and does fine. As for the 10mm its just another round nothing special. Having owned a Glock 20 it was my least favorate duty gun. But that is another thread.
Pat
Grant I agree with the parts you posted above in red. As for hunting with the 22 mag I doubt you use a revolver with a 1 7/8 inch barrel for hunting. Also hunting small game and defending yourself are totally different worlds and should not be compared. I have played with the 22 mag as I have owned a few Ruger Single Six's over the years.
Have you used the NEW .22 Magnum loads that have come out over the last 2 years? It will take a 45LBS animal (seen it). Can you compare this to killing a human with one shot? No, but if you read the firing line thread and do research on the newer loads (especially the newer defensive loads), it is a pretty good round for what it is.
I agree you need to find a weapon that the student can handle. What I am saying however is if they can't handle a 9mm or a 38 special then they really are not to the level needed to even pick up a gun in self defense.
This is incorrect logic and know of several professional instructors that have forgotten more than you and I know (COMBINED) that would disagree with this logic (sorry).
C4
Alaskapopo
09-23-11, 00:38
Have you used the NEW .22 Magnum loads that have come out over the last 2 years? It will take a 45LBS animal (seen it). Can you compare this to killing a human with one shot? No, but if you read the firing line thread and do research on the newer loads (especially the newer defensive loads), it is a pretty good round for what it is.
This is incorrect logic and know of several professional instructors that have forgotten more than you and I know (COMBINED) that would disagree with this logic (sorry).
C4
Again on the hunting I assume you are shooting them from a rifle? Much more velocity and much easier to place your shots perfectly. Not a valid comparision.
As for my logic we can certainly agree to disagree but you can not call my view incorrect as that would be your opinion and not fact. As for the groupie logic (other professional firearms instructors) frankly I don't worship any man or his views. I take in what I can and throw out the garbage.
Pat
I want one Grant PM me if you have any more in stock. It will be a starter gun for my wife. She really wont carry anything heavy in her purse and is recoil shy. Maybe one day she will move up to my 3913 or even better my 1066:). She limps wrists Glocks so they are excluded.
This looks like a good little pistol for the old lady, especially since speer is coming out with a 22 mag load. So is hornady critical defense.
I'm interested in the Speer load for sure. Not so much the CD though. I have always been interested in the .22 mag for self defense. I think is could be a great concept if the right bullet were implemented.
Again on the hunting I assume you are shooting them from a rifle? Much more velocity and much easier to place your shots perfectly. Not a valid comparision.
As for my logic we can certainly agree to disagree but you can not call my view incorrect as that would be your opinion and not fact. As for the groupie logic (other professional firearms instructors) frankly I don't worship any man or his views. I take in what I can and throw out the garbage.
Pat
At some point, you have to realize that there are people with much more knowledge than you. You can choose to ignore their qualified opinions or actually step back and re-examine your opinion.
C4
I'm interested in the Speer load for sure. Not so much the CD though. I have always been interested in the .22 mag for self defense. I think is could be a great concept if the right bullet were implemented.
I FINALLY got some of this ammo in stock. Cool little bullet.
C4
Grant the 22 mag from a pistol is not nasty its puny. Your better off with solid bullets so you will get sufficient penetration forget about Golddots or any JHP.
How much gel have you shot with the new Gold Dot?
This isn't a varmint bullet, meant to blow up on a ground squirrel. This load was designed for defense, out of a 2" barrel.
In talking to one of the LE guys at ATK, he said they're getting 9-10.5"+ penetration in BG, with excellent expansion out of this new load.
Compared to a lot of other stuff that people carry, that's not bad, especially for an 11 oz, 7 shot gun, with little to no recoil.
http://www.speer-ammo.com/products/954.htm
http://www.speer-ammo.com/images/22_win_mag.jpg
How much gel have you shot with the new Gold Dot?
This isn't a varmint bullet, meant to blow up on a ground squirrel. This load was designed for defense, out of a 2" barrel.
In talking to one of the LE guys at ATK, he said they're getting 9-10.5"+ penetration in BG, with excellent expansion out of this new load.
Compared to a lot of other stuff that people carry, that's not bad, especially for an 11 oz, 7 shot gun, with little to no recoil.
http://www.speer-ammo.com/products/954.htm
http://www.speer-ammo.com/images/22_win_mag.jpg
9-10 inches? Pretty good.
C4
Most people killed with .22's were executed and defenseless.
Two guys I worked with were killed with .22 LR out of handguns. Both one round, both were immediate incapacitation. Neither were executed, nor were they defenseless.
Jeff Cooper, not exactly a proponent of small calibers, often said that a .22 pistol was the best choice for a non shooter. I heard it with my own ears. He also wrote that a small .22 handgun was probably the best choice for a police backup weapon. "A .22 to the eye socket will end the fight". The Colonel wasn't an expert on wound ballistics, but he did understand shot placement was the most important factor.
I don't think Grant is recommending anyone trade their M&P .45 in on a .22 mag. But the gun and ammo combination he's talking about, does have a place, imho.
I think I'll have to lean with Grant on this one. I also think we have to look at this in the proper perspective,as an extreme close range defensive tool for civilian use.I agree that for folks who don't train heavily and may be somewhat gunshy,it's a good thing.
I spent the better part of my life on the street( 27 years) and in that time I saw many people shot with 22lr's. In all those instances that I experienced,if placement was good into vitals,they died.The ones with peripheral hits weren't hurt very badly.
In each instance where death occured,the recipient was unable to respond or continue to fight,as the shot or shots were well placed.
This is certainly not a gunfighter's gun,but as Jake's Dad said it definetely has a place.In fact,since the Gold Dot loads are on the market I intend to budget for one of these myself. ( Fixed income,you know?) I can see a lot of good use for this little revolver,even around the homestead here. I will say that it would certainly not be my first choice for a serious event,but would be a good thing to have in a clinche for a heart,neck,or head shot.I think this is it's main niche,and I think it's a good choice for that purpose.
The elderly and infirmed are often targets,and with severe arthritis and other debilitating ailments,this would give them an alternative with a weapon that is not punishing with recoil,and also less expensive to shoot. And,very simple and easy to operate.
In fairness to Alaskapopo, we're all just products of our life experiences. If I was a cop, and lived in a cold weather environment (heavy clothing), I'd probably laugh at a .22 too.
That being said, I live in a warm environment and have heard/read about a lot of people being killed with .22s. I've been unlucky enough to have two guns pointed at me in my life; one was a 12 gauge and the other looked like a .25. I wasn't any less scared by little gun than I was by the 12 gauge. When you're looking at the business end of a firearm, the caliber really doesn't matter much IMO.
In fairness to Alaskapopo, we're all just products of our life experiences. If I was a cop, and lived in a cold weather environment (heavy clothing), I'd probably laugh at a .22 too.
That being said, I live in a warm environment and have heard/read about a lot of people being killed with .22s. I've been unlucky enough to have two guns pointed at me in my life; one was a 12 gauge and the other looked like a .25. I wasn't any less scared by little gun than I was by the 12 gauge. When you're looking at the business end of a firearm, the caliber really doesn't matter much IMO. Totally agree.No disrespect meant toward Alaskapopo at all,and I see his points also.
Technology changes, and dismissing things you haven't seen is always a mistake.
When I was a baby cop, 9mm's sucked. The round improved in the last 35 years.
Alaskapopo
09-29-11, 23:20
Technology changes, and dismissing things you haven't seen is always a mistake.
When I was a baby cop, 9mm's sucked. The round improved in the last 35 years.
In my opinion the 9mm did not really suck any more than the other rounds back then. 45 ball is only marginally more effective than 9mm ball. The 357 mag was good because it was one of the few cartridges that had the velocity to make JHP's of that day expand. Hollowpoints in the 9mm and 45 back then did not work and they also were not reliable. I remember guys loading 200 grain Super Vels into the chambers of their 1911's and having ball in the mag. In fairness this new 22 mag round looks favorable compared to the 32 and other pocket pistol rounds. I would still recommend a 38 special with waddcutters however. Even that recommendation is lighter than I prefer. Perhaps Dr. Roberts could weigh in on the subject as a subject matter expert in the area of wound ballistics.
Pat
In my opinion the 9mm did not really suck any more than the other rounds back then. 45 ball is only marginally more effective than 9mm ball. The 357 mag was good because it was one of the few cartridges that had the velocity to make JHP's of that day expand. Hollowpoints in the 9mm and 45 back then did not work and they also were not reliable. I remember guys loading 200 grain Super Vels into the chambers of their 1911's and having ball in the mag. In fairness this new 22 mag round looks favorable compared to the 32 and other pocket pistol rounds. I would still recommend a 38 special with waddcutters however. Even that recommendation is lighter than I prefer. Perhaps Dr. Roberts could weigh in on the subject as a subject matter expert in the area of wound ballistics.
Pat
The dominant 9's in my part of the country when I started, were the Remington 115 grain HP, which wouldn't expand on a brick wall, and the Winchester Western 100 grain "Power Point", (my department's issue for 9), which also didn't expand, but had the additional feature of not feeding in just about any gun. In contrast, the .38 158 grain SWC's and HP's that were common at the time, actually worked quite well in actual shootings. So yeah, for me, 9 sucked in those days. Some guys I worked still think it does. They haven't bothered to learn about newer technology in ammo.
Doc is certainly welcome to offer an opinion, but on what? Neither Grant nor I suggested that the .22 mag is a good carry choice for most folks.
But I doubt Doc would suggest that someone carrying a .22 mag that penetrated 9-10"+, while staying together and expanding to .45, wouldn't be better off than having nothing, if that's all they could or would handle.
Alaskapopo
09-30-11, 00:43
The dominant 9's in my part of the country when I started, were the Remington 115 grain HP, which wouldn't expand on a brick wall, and the Winchester Western 100 grain "Power Point", (my department's issue for 9), which also didn't expand, but had the additional feature of not feeding in just about any gun. In contrast, the .38 158 grain SWC's and HP's that were common at the time, actually worked quite well in actual shootings. So yeah, for me, 9 sucked in those days. Some guys I worked still think it does. They haven't bothered to learn about newer technology in ammo.
Doc is certainly welcome to offer an opinion, but on what? Neither Grant nor I suggested that the .22 mag is a good carry choice for most folks.
But I doubt Doc would suggest that someone carrying a .22 mag that penetrated 9-10"+, while staying together and expanding to .45, wouldn't be better off than having nothing, if that's all they could or would handle.
I just have a hard time seeing the 22 mag as all someone could handle. I got my mother a air weight 38 that she can handle and she is 5 2 and fairly frail with arthritis. I have taught all kinds of people to shoot including one female who is 4 feet 8 inches tall and she handled a full size 1911 in 45. Its a mental thing. That needs to be addressed not the hardware. Arming someone with a questionable caliber that may just serve to anger the attacker even more is not desirable in my opinion. Where do we draw the line. What if the 22 mag is too loud for them do we go with the 22 long rifle. The 22 short?
Pat
I just have a hard time seeing the 22 mag as all someone could handle. I got my mother a air weight 38 that she can handle and she is 5 2 and fairly frail with arthritis. I have taught all kinds of people to shoot including one female who is 4 feet 8 inches tall and she handled a full size 1911 in 45. Its a mental thing. That needs to be addressed not the hardware. Arming someone with a questionable caliber that may just serve to anger the attacker even more is not desirable in my opinion. Where do we draw the line. What if the 22 mag is too loud for them do we go with the 22 long rifle. The 22 short?
Pat
Your experiences aren't unique. Lots of us have taught many small statured people how to shoot larger and more effective guns, both professionally, and personally. Some of those I taught have retired, or are retiring from careers in law enforcement, and my own size 2 better half, shoots .44 mag, etc., just fine.
Perhaps your superior instructive, or psychological counseling abilities, have overcome the small minority of people the rest of us have encountered that can't, or don't want to learn to shoot more effective calibers. Or perhaps those people don't choose you for a teacher. Regardless, I disagree that those people will likely just "anger" an attacker, with multiple 9"-10"+ deep, .45 caliber wound channels, delivered accurately, quickly, and confidently, from a weapon that they will actually carry.
Alaskapopo
09-30-11, 05:19
Your experiences aren't unique. Lots of us have taught many small statured people how to shoot larger and more effective guns, both professionally, and personally. Some of those I taught have retired, or are retiring from careers in law enforcement, and my own size 2 better half, shoots .44 mag, etc., just fine.
Perhaps your superior instructive, or psychological counseling abilities, have overcome the small minority of people the rest of us have encountered that can't, or don't want to learn to shoot more effective calibers. Or perhaps those people don't choose you for a teacher. Regardless, I disagree that those people will likely just "anger" an attacker, with multiple 9"-10"+ deep, .45 caliber wound channels, delivered accurately, quickly, and confidently, from a weapon that they will actually carry.
The minimum accepted penetration depth in the world of wound ballistics right now is 12 inches. Many attackers have shrugged off calibers far more effective than the 22 mag. Its very possible that an attacker would continue his attack after taking a cylinder full of these 22 mags. There was a shooting involving a P90 using a round ballistically superior to the 22 mag in which the suspect was shot several times and then said he gave up. The rounds had little effect. The problem with this 22 mag is you are going to have to use surgical shot placement something that most new shooters don't have. Perhaps this weapon has some merit that I am not seeing, but on the face of it I don't trust it, nor would I want a loved one to trust it.
pat
The minimum accepted penetration depth in the world of wound ballistics right now is 12 inches. Many attackers have shrugged off calibers far more effective than the 22 mag. Its very possible that an attacker would continue his attack after taking a cylinder full of these 22 mags. There was a shooting involving a P90 using a round ballistically superior to the 22 mag in which the suspect was shot several times and then said he gave up. The rounds had little effect. The problem with this 22 mag is you are going to have to use surgical shot placement something that most new shooters don't have. Perhaps this weapon has some merit that I am not seeing, but on the face of it I don't trust it, nor would I want a loved one to trust it.
pat
I'm quite aware of minimum recommended penetration depths. I didn't learn about wound ballistics from the internet.
Since you seem to feel a 2" .38 is adequate enough, how about you tell me how many .38 2" loads, make 12" minimum in bare gel?
Or how many other commonly carried rounds, don't make 12"?
Of course everyone would be better off carrying rounds that do 12-16" and expand to .85+. But the reality is, this gun and cartridge combination is superior to what many are using now, and would certainly be better than carrying nothing, for those who won't or can't use something better.
Alaskapopo
09-30-11, 12:33
I'm quite aware of minimum recommended penetration depths. I didn't learn about wound ballistics from the internet.
Since you seem to feel a 2" .38 is adequate enough, how about you tell me how many .38 2" loads, make 12" minimum in bare gel?
Or how many other commonly carried rounds, don't make 12"?
Of course everyone would be better off carrying rounds that do 12-16" and expand to .85+. But the reality is, this gun and cartridge combination is superior to what many are using now, and would certainly be better than carrying nothing, for those who won't or can't use something better.
And you are implying I did. Nor do I think Dr. Roberts learned what he knows on the internet. Lets keep the thread civil shall we. You have your position I have mine.
Pat
And you are implying I did.
No, I didn't.
Nor do I think Dr. Roberts learned what he knows on the internet.
What? Now you're the one implying something.
I've attended events with Dr. Roberts going back more than 20 years, and have regularly referred folks to him. But he's not in this thread, and I haven't seen him express his opinion on the Gold Dot .22 Mag. But I'm pretty confident he'll want to actually see it, or the data on it, before he renders one.
Lets keep the thread civil shall we. You have your position I have mine.
Pat
Your "position" on a round you haven't seen, haven't tested, and presumably didn't know existed until this thread, is somewhat hard to understand.
No one here became uncivil, except perhaps you, in a need to be right, rather than to discuss.
I'm glad to see you at least edited your original response, where you said:
"Even the most miserably performing .38 load out performs this mouse gun".
Because of course, that would be a somewhat difficult statement for you to back up.
This thread is about a .22 Mag revolver and new defensive loaded ammunition. If you do not have personal experience with either one, please keep your opinions to yourself.
Consider this your warning.
What's the volume like with the .22 Mag fired out of a short barrel revolver?
Regular .22 mag out of a handgun is pretty friggin loud. Since they built this optimized for use out of a short barrel, I don't know if it's going to be less volume or not. I'm trying to get my hands on some now, and that's one of the things I'm curious about as well.
ThirdWatcher
10-07-11, 07:18
I'm interested. My bride is kinda sensitive to recoil and I live away from town and I work straight nightshift so... when are they going to be available? :)
whitecoyote
10-19-11, 21:26
I purchased a S&W 351C a few months ago. It's a great, little, light weight revolver. At the range it was accurate, but there was one small problem. I wanted to fire 150 rounds on this particular day. As I got close to 100 rounds the revolver was heating up. The revolver stopped rotating with rounds in the cylinder, and became very difficult to eject spent rounds. What happened was the aluminum cylinder became hot, and expanded, which binded up the revolver. Once cooled down to room temp., everything worked ok. So don't get them to hot, and the revolver should work fine.
http://i55.tinypic.com/24dpxsw.jpg
I personally like the idea
For sensitive,as in recoil sensitive shooters, we settled on a Ruger sp101 in 327 mag
We use fiochi 32 sw long wadcutters for low recoil stuff and if a person just can't shoot the 32 hr
mags or 327 she/he can shoot the full patch wadcutters which are centerfire and better than rimfire but for practice that 22 mag is way way cheaper!
Mine showed up yesterday. I'll give a report from my 1 5/8 mini mag soon.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/greyeyezz/P1030387.jpg
CenterTree
11-03-11, 19:42
I find myself very interested in the S&W 351c. And I feel comfortable with the caliber for my wife to carry. (she has a small amount of recoil fear with her LCP, just enough fear that she doesn't practice enough)
I saw this months article in "Shooting Times" magazine on the .22WMR as a defensive round.
What surprises me is the price these things (351c) are going for!!:(
They are NOT titanium or scandium or GOLD (lol). I just thought a .22WMR revolver would be somewhat more "obtainable". $$$$$$
I find myself very interested in the S&W 351c. And I feel comfortable with the caliber for my wife to carry. (she has a small amount of recoil fear with her LCP, just enough fear that she doesn't practice enough)
I saw this months article in "Shooting Times" magazine on the .22WMR as a defensive round.
What surprises me is the price these things (351c) are going for!!:(
They are NOT titanium or scandium or GOLD (lol). I just thought a .22WMR revolver would be somewhat more "obtainable". $$$$$$
The 7 shot cylinder 351C Airlite lists for $689.00.
The 5 shot cylinder 360PD Airlite lists for $1019.00.
Lower priced ammunition, doesn't correlate to a lower priced gun.
I find myself very interested in the S&W 351c. And I feel comfortable with the caliber for my wife to carry. (she has a small amount of recoil fear with her LCP, just enough fear that she doesn't practice enough)
I saw this months article in "Shooting Times" magazine on the .22WMR as a defensive round.
What surprises me is the price these things (351c) are going for!!:(
They are NOT titanium or scandium or GOLD (lol). I just thought a .22WMR revolver would be somewhat more "obtainable". $$$$$$
We offer them for a pretty cheap price (compared to list). Drop us a line if interested.
C4
We offer them for a pretty cheap price (compared to list). Drop us a line if interested.
C4
Yes, but you sell the .38 or .357 for a cheap price compared to list as well.
The point is, expecting a 7 shot .22 magnum to sell for less than the same type of gun in a 5 shot .38 or .357, makes no sense.
Yes, but you sell the .38 or .357 for a cheap price compared to list as well.
The point is, expecting a 7 shot .22 magnum to sell for less than the same type of gun in a 5 shot .38 or .357, makes no sense.
Correct. The .38's are mass produced. There is no way to get a .22 or .22MAG down to those prices (as they just don't make many of them).
C4
In that short barrel, does 22 mag defeat class IIIA armor?
If so, then would it be a good backup gun for police who may have to deal with sophisticated, armored drug cartel people?
In that short barrel, does 22 mag defeat class IIIA armor?
If so, then would it be a good backup gun for police who may have to deal with sophisticated, armored drug cartel people?
Huh??
Correct. The .38's are mass produced. There is no way to get a .22 or .22MAG down to those prices (as they just don't make many of them).
C4
The whole volume thing works into it too, but when you consider the 7 or 8 shot cylinder, vs the 5, they're actually not that much higher for the similar models. A lot of guys expect .22 guns to cost less than the centerfire versions. That's never going to be the case in the same platform.
In that short barrel, does 22 mag defeat class IIIA armor?
No.
......
Not to resurrect a long-dead thread for nothing, but would anyone care to chime in on what the recoil through one of these is like? I'm sure it's light, but just how light? Are we talking M&P 9mm full size light? Lighter? (I'm trying to get a sense of perspective here based on what few guns I've had experience with lol)
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