View Full Version : How do Daniel Defense/Noveske mid-length rifles/uppers compare to BCM?
Chris17404
11-10-10, 14:29
Hi all,
I am researching my first AR purchase, and have narrowed the choices down to BCM, DD, or Noveske. It will also be a 16" mid-length. I've heard nothing but praise on M4C for the strengths of the BCM mid-length rifles and uppers... reliable, smooth-shooting, proven at high-round count training classes, etc.
But I'm seeing some VERY good deals out there these days on complete DD mid-length rifles, that come with CFH barrels, sights, rails and accessories for basically pennies more than a basic BCM complete rifle with standard barrel.
I know Noveske is a bit more expensive, but their complete rifles also come with sights, upgraded stocks, etc... plus machine gun steel CFH barrels.
I'm really looking for feedback on the quality and reputation of Daniel Defense and Noveske mid-length uppers. Do they have the same reliability and quality construction that a fighting rifle needs? Can someone compare and contrast the pros/cons of each manufacturer's mid-length offerings?
Thanks for your time and knowledge.
Chris
you can't go wrong with either. seriously. all things equal and one gives you rail and one doesn't and the money is good, go for it.
DD= Good to go
BCM= Good to go
Noveske= Good to go
Now decide which best fits your specific needs, buy it and shoot the shit out of it.
I have a Noveske mid length rifle and I havent had a malfunction yet. Its also really accurate as well. Like others have said you really cant go wrong with any of them.
You never said what your setup for the AR is: defense, varmint, competitive shooting, etc that can change the advice you are going to receive.
Myself I fit in the defense category and like Magpul Dynamic's mentality with their weapon set ups. Therefore my advice is based off of my training with them. I took the Carbine 1+2 course in Sept and after attending the class I ordered a new upper. So my advice comes from my conversions with Chris Costa. Not that I speak for him in any way but this is what seemed right for ME after my training.
My issue was I have a 16" Larue Stealth and I found it too heavy with the long rail I had on it. After 3 days of shooting I wanted a lightweight and versatile upper. I asked specifically about Noveske vs. BCM as they both have lightweight barrels. Without trashing Noveske from 2nd hand advice let me just say that there was no doubt in the advice I received to get the BCM. Specifically this model: LW 16" Middy
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-LIGHT-WEIGHT-Upper-Receiver-p/bcm-urg-mid-16lw.htm
Having said that I think you will be very happy with all 3 manufacturers, but an option most people don't consider is getting the lightweight barrel vs. a standard barrel. Unless you fit into the competitive shooting category you aren't going to notice any real difference in accuracy so why have the extra weight of a regular barrel?
Chris17404
11-10-10, 15:16
You never said what your setup for the AR is: defense, varmint, competitive shooting, etc that can change the advice you are going to receive.
This will be for a self-defense fighting rifle.
jasonhgross
11-10-10, 15:17
I went with BCM purely because I could choose the rail and config I wanted and the quality is very good. Like the others said, you can't go wrong.
.
Each gun you have listed would be fine. I think everyone here will be pretty much in agreement.
I was in the same predicament earlier in the year and this is what I did...
- Using the research you have done (seems like you have done a lot) to make a list of specific questions.
- Add this question to your list, "Why should I buy your rifle over the other two".
- Now, call each manufacturer, and ask to speak to a sales rep. They have knowledgeable reps that you can talk with and ask specific questions.
- Ask your questions.
Then, just go with the maker who had the best attitude, patience, and who answered your questions the best.
Simple…
If you don’t mind, let us know who you went with and why.
.
I was in the same magpul class in Sept and I ended up buying a midlength chf DD 14.5 upper, perming a 1.5 battle comp, and equipping it with moe mid length handguards - just to have a super light weight and durable AR.
Like everyone else said, you can't go wrong with any of your choices... And you'll probably end up with all three brands eventually...
:laugh:
buddyhoohaw
11-11-10, 07:50
Have you considered the Knight's SR-15 E3? If not, then you should seriously consider it. It is hands down the smoothest and lightest 16" DI AR-15 carbine I have shot/owned and prices have come down considerably over the last few months. I recall seeing them for ~ $1,850.00 recently and you would be hard pressed to build a better rifle. Add a T-1 optic and SF 300 Scout light and you're good to go.
Cheers
Chris17404
11-11-10, 08:27
Thanks for the feedback so far, guys. Please keep it coming.
No, I've not considered the Knight's SR-15 E3 yet. But it's a bit more than I wanted to spend, really.
Speaking about mid-length ARs... does any company "do them better"? Is there a clear leader in mid-length development and reliability?
Thanks.
Added by Iraqgunz- Pretty much everything you said here is wrong and has been corrected. DD does in fact HP/MPI test their barrels and bolts. Noveske does not make "gimmicky" stuff.
ehcarl2983
11-11-10, 09:09
I would buy the BCM over DD or Noveske. Noveske is nothing more than CMT parts and gimmick barrels. DD is making good stuff, but they don't go the extra mile (HPT) that Paul at Bravo Company goes. If you want a CHF barrel, BCM has them too.
I'm curious as to why you think Noveske has gimmick barrels....
Singlestack Wonder
11-11-10, 09:11
All are GTG. Right now smartgunner.com is running a great sale on DD uppers with any combination of barrel/rail you want for $525. Add a bolt carrier group for $124. They also have DD lowers too at good prices. These prices will be available thru the end of the year.
I would buy the BCM over DD or Noveske. Noveske is nothing more than CMT parts and gimmick barrels. DD is making good stuff, but they don't go the extra mile (HPT) that Paul at Bravo Company goes. If you want a CHF barrel, BCM has them too.
DD HPT's Barrels and Bolts. They follow the same quality control guidelines (As in they do the job correct, not exact guidelines persay) FYI. They go the extra mile and then they go a bit further by manufacturing every single part in house. Get your facts straight before posting bogus info. BCM is great, but lets not make false claims about other manufacturers to sing their praises.:big_boss:
All are GTG. Right now smartgunner.com is running a great sale on DD uppers with any combination of barrel/rail you want for $525. Add a bolt carrier group for $124. They also have DD lowers too at good prices. These prices will be available thru the end of the year.
This is what I am doing. Going to go with the Mid-Length. Extra $25.00.
Serpico1985
11-11-10, 09:47
I'm curious as to why you think Noveske has gimmick barrels....
+1
I would like to hear an answer to that...
....They go the extra mile and then they go a bit further by manufacturing every single part in house. ....
I find that very difficult to believe. Could you cite this?
And to add, even if they did make *everything* in house, it doesn't mean much. A superior component doesn't care where it's made.
Complication
11-11-10, 10:18
I would skip Noveske if they don't specifically offer anything you want or need. They tend to be a fair bit pricier than DD or BCM and if you're not getting something you specifically want from those few extra $100s, then why not spend that money on training and ammo?
Signed,
A supremely happy Noveske customer.
There was a Monster thread either on here or on TOS a while back about this. Some people toured DD and saw most of the stuff being made. DD is top notch. Then again so is BCM and Noveske.
I also am curious as to my .45 thinks Noveske are Gimmicky
I've called and talked with them about it; feel free to do the same research and find out for yourself.
I didn't say that they are better because they manufacture every part in house; or that makes the parts better themselves; just that they go a bit further by doing so. All parts made in house and QC'd in house is a big investment in a business, one that says "We are here doing it the right way with the right materials and we're here to stay". DD is a great company, they manufacture great components, have great QC, and the CS is the best I have ever dealt with, be it guns or cars or whatever. Them manufacturing everything in house, being that commited to their products/customers/employees just puts that extra dollup of icing on the cake for me; YMMV.
They use components that are on par quality wise with BCM & Colt; so why wouldn't making every part in house be a great thing?
I'm curious as to why you think Noveske has gimmick barrels....
Just ignore him. He's the same fool who started a 2-page flamewar on TOS because he claimed that bull-barrels offered no inherent accuracy over pencil barrels and claimed that thinner barrels heating up and wearing out faster than thicker barrels was a lie. Of course everyone dog-piled him within 30 minutes, but he didn't care.
justin_247
11-11-10, 10:28
I've called and talked with them about it; feel free to do the same research and find out for yourself.
...
They use components that are on par quality wise with BCM & Colt; so why wouldn't making every part in house be a great thing?
I think they make every *major* component in house. The idea that they make *everything* on their rifles in house is silly. I bet Colt doesn't even do that... it's just not cost effective to invest in so much machinery for the number of rifles that they sell, especially at their rifle's selling point.
dieselgeek
11-11-10, 10:42
I think they make every *major* component in house. The idea that they make *everything* on their rifles in house is silly. I bet Colt doesn't even do that... it's just not cost effective to invest in so much machinery for the number of rifles that they sell, especially at their rifle's selling point.
Some companies do this though.
Rolex makes everything in house
Bands, Crystals, Movement, Cases, bezels and Crowns.
I think they make every *major* component in house. The idea that they make *everything* on their rifles in house is silly. I bet Colt doesn't even do that... it's just not cost effective to invest in so much machinery for the number of rifles that they sell, especially at their rifle's selling point.
From the conversation I had with them about a year ago; they in fact do; quite possibly I may have been mistaken or miscommunicated. I tried calling to confirm this today; but they are closed for veterans day (A big thanks to you vets!).
Maybe someone else on here with the knowledge can put this to rest before DD opens up tomorrow...
Otherwise we wait until then to find out.
I have two complete BCMs and a complete DD and a complete LMT, I would recommend buying the upper or rifle that has the features you want, if they both have the same features then I would simply buy the lowest priced one. If I were to buy another AR I would be looking at DD and BCM first.
Cameron
I'm curious as to why you think Noveske has gimmick barrels....
"M249 steel!"
"Double thick chrome lining!"
Whatever, it's your money, spend it how you feel fit.
Just ignore him. He's the same fool who started a 2-page flamewar on TOS because he claimed that bull-barrels offered no inherent accuracy over pencil barrels and claimed that thinner barrels heating up and wearing out faster than thicker barrels was a lie. Of course everyone dog-piled him within 30 minutes, but he didn't care.
I'm sorry, who the **** are you? I also started no thread about bull-barrels vs. "pencil" barrels. BTW, I'm also not a ****ing idiot, so I know the correct term is standard profile not "pencil barrel." ;)
I'm sorry, who the **** are you? I also started no thread about bull-barrels vs. "pencil" barrels. BTW, I'm also not a ****ing idiot, so I know the correct term is standard profile not "pencil barrel." ;)
The point is that you routinely make off-the-cuff, unfounded remarks that you cannot base on fact. That BS doesn't fly here.
I never said you started a "thread" (try reading next time). I said you started a flamewar, where you claimed that thin-profile barrels "whipping," heating up faster, and being inherently less accurate was all a lie and accused me (and everyone else) of repeating marketing garbage. After arguing your flawed logic for two pages, you were laughed out of the thread.
If you truly can't remember your post, then agree to compensate me for a TOS membership upon proof the thread and I'll go pull the post from the archives.
Back on topic.
I'm sorry, who the **** are you? I also started no thread about bull-barrels vs. "pencil" barrels. BTW, I'm also not a ****ing idiot, so I know the correct term is standard profile not "pencil barrel." ;)
Actually there are standard profile barrels, Bull Barrels and pencil Barrels, FYI.
"M249 steel!"
"Double thick chrome lining!"
Whatever, it's your money, spend it how you feel fit.
What's wrong with M249 steel? Please, share your expertise with us.
"Double-thick"? Reading obviously isn't your forte. They have NEVER claimed that it's double-thick and in fact, John Noveske went out of the way to state it was NOT double-lining, but rather a single coating that was twice as thick (yes, there's a difference and it matters).
And just what is wrong with it being twice as thick?? Does it detract from the barrel performance? Does it degrade barrel accuracy? Please, share your exclusive inside information on why it's so bad.
Just another post with no objective data or purpose...:rolleyes:
Actually there are standard profile barrels, Bull Barrels and pencil Barrels, FYI.
Incorrect.
Standard profile is what is colloquially referred to as "pencil" barrels and lightweight profile. I think you're confusing government profile with standard profile.
What's wrong with M249 steel? Please, share your expertise with us.
"Double-thick"? Reading obviously isn't your forte. They have NEVER claimed that it's double-thick and in fact, John Noveske went out of the way to state it was NOT double-lining, but rather a single coating that was twice as thick (yes, there's a difference and it matters).
And just what is wrong with it being twice as thick?? Does it detract from the barrel performance? Does it degrade barrel accuracy? Please, share your exclusive inside information on why it's so bad.
Just another post with no objective data or purpose...:rolleyes:
Does it increase performance? Does it increase accuracy? In a semi-automatic rifle does a barrel specced for a machine gun make a bit of difference? No, I think that would make it "gimmicky."
ETA - Just for you:
Gimmick:
–noun
1.
an ingenious or novel device, scheme, or stratagem, esp. one designed to attract attention or increase appeal.
–verb (used with object)
5.
to equip or embellish with unnecessary features, esp. in order to increase saleability, acceptance, etc. (often fol. by up ): to gimmick up a sports car with chrome and racing stripes.
Does it increase performance? Does it increase accuracy? In a semi-automatic rifle does a barrel specced for a machine gun make a bit of difference? No, I think that would make it "gimmicky."
Let's examine your logic, shall we?
An M249 barrel has an advantage in a machine gun, where it fires continuously on full-auto at rates and times that would literally burst an AR/M4 barrel. That's established fact.
That said, explain how it's of no benefit in an AR. An AR generates everything that an M249 does (heat, friction, corrosion from firing), so how does having a heavier duty barrel equate to "gimmicks."
Noveske's M249 steel barrels are hammer forged - is that a gimmick? Please, explain. M249 steel is also designed to withstand higher heat/stress schedules than an M4 barrel (hence its use in the M249).
Heavier chrome lining (twice as thick as standard M4 barrels) results in a longer-lasting surface to resist erosion and corrosion (which is the reason it's used in the M249).
Please, explain how these characteristics are "gimmicks" and of no benefit in an AR.
I have a Noveske mid length rifle w/vis and it's excellent. When I went to build an SBR, I went with a BCM 11.5 barrel (Noveske upper/lower). It's been a good barrel, but the only reason I bought that is because Noveske doesn't make one...the BCM was second choice. I don't regret it, but would have preferred a Noveske based on my experience with their stuff and their reputation.
"M249 steel!"
"Double thick chrome lining!"
Whatever, it's your money, spend it how you feel fit.
I am hoping you could elaborate more on this point as well, as you have not been able to say much of anything on the subject yet.
Let's examine your logic, shall we?
An M249 barrel has an advantage in a machine gun, where it fires continuously on full-auto at rates and times that would literally burst an AR/M4 barrel. That's established fact.
That said, explain how it's of no benefit in an AR. An AR generates everything that an M249 does (heat, friction, corrosion from firing), so how does having a heavier duty barrel equate to "gimmicks."
Noveske's M249 steel barrels are hammer forged - is that a gimmick? Please, explain. M249 steel is also designed to withstand higher heat/stress schedules than an M4 barrel (hence its use in the M249).
Heavier chrome lining (twice as thick as standard M4 barrels) results in a longer-lasting surface to resist erosion and corrosion (which is the reason it's used in the M249).
Please, explain how these characteristics are "gimmicks" and of no benefit in an AR.
When the throat and muzzle erode, they erode. Period. It's not the substrate that erodes, it's the lining. Increasing the lining won't stop erosion. Having twice the thickness of chrome lining won't keep the top layer from wearing, and when it wears out, and the physical space is increased, what's underneath won't matter.
But the crux of the issue is how a machine gun barrel matters in a semi-automatic carbine. How many standard barrels have you shot out? Have you noticed an increase in the duty life of your beloved barrels versus a standard barrel because you have shot so many of each out that you have gathered a scientifically significant amount of data using accepted scientific methods? Oh, you haven't? So you're just spouting off marketing terms off the cuff, huh? What is that old cliche about throwing stones in a glass house?
DD is making good stuff, but they don't go the extra mile (HPT) that Paul at Bravo Company goes.
say WHAT? do you have anything to back that up???
say WHAT? do you have anything to back that up???
Hell no he doesn't; that is bogus info right there. It is well known that DD HPT's, MPI's and QC's everything correctly.
Hell no he doesn't; that is bogus info right there. It is well known that DD HPT's, MPI's and QC's everything correctly.
Where do you see HPT on Daniel Defense's website? They claim their barrels are MPI, but not a word is said about HPT. The same goes for their BCGs. I guess you could somehow prove me wrong?
I'm sorry, who the **** are you? I also started no thread about bull-barrels vs. "pencil" barrels. BTW, I'm also not a ****ing idiot, so I know the correct term is standard profile not "pencil barrel." ;)
Your posting above causes people to think you are what your claiming not to be.
Knock off the language. Its not necessary here. Act like an adult or kindly remove yourself from the fray.
Some companies do this though.
Rolex makes everything in house
Bands, Crystals, Movement, Cases, bezels and Crowns.
they are also an old company that survived two world wars. in order to continue production, I bet they had to resort to that to survive.
different thing here...
Where do you see HPT on Daniel Defense's website? They claim their barrels are MPI, but not a word is said about HPT. The same goes for their BCGs. I guess you could somehow prove me wrong?
Its been discussed extensively on this site, in several threads. Several members have emailed/called and confirmed it. I have called and confirmed it personally as well; go ahead and ask C4Igrant; he is a distrubutor for them (And BCM) and can vouch for it. Or better yet; make the call or send the email and get the info for yourself.
DD is definitely HPT & MPI tested.
Its been discussed extensively on this site, in several threads. Several members have emailed/called and confirmed it. I have called and confirmed it personally as well; go ahead and ask C4Igrant; he is a distrubutor for them (And BCM) and can vouch for it. Or better yet; make the call or send the email and get the info for yourself.
DD is definitely HPT & MPI tested.
I emailed a while back and they told me they do in fact HPT-MPI their barrels and bolts... I posed the question based on the details on their website, btw.
They were also very pleasant to talk with.
Its been discussed extensively on this site, in several threads. Several members have emailed/called and confirmed it. I have called and confirmed it personally as well; go ahead and ask C4Igrant; he is a distrubutor for them (And BCM) and can vouch for it. Or better yet; make the call or send the email and get the info for yourself.
DD is definitely HPT & MPI tested.
That's fine then, I was wrong about that. They really should update their website.
Complication
11-11-10, 12:36
Maybe we should stop feeding the trolls?
guys, I see where this is going and it is the typical result of these types of threads. IIRC, this site has/d a policy of not allowing "versus" or "which is better" threads. this is the type of crap that is better left to hobby or enthusiast sites.
M4c is a site that was started not as a hobby site but as a "working tools" site. that they let "non-working" folks (such as myself) come here to glean knowledge and ask questions is, I believe, a privilege that should be treated with respect. this thread sows none of that and has sunk to a level of other sites that I try to avoid nowadays for precisely that reason.
I'm sorry I posted here...
Doc Safari
11-11-10, 12:43
I don't own a Noveske, but I do own a Daniel Defense carbine. I agree with the posts that the extra expense for the Noveske is not justified unless they just happen to offer some feature you specifically want.
But the crux of the issue is how a machine gun barrel matters in a semi-automatic carbine. How many standard barrels have you shot out? Have you noticed an increase in the duty life of your beloved barrels versus a standard barrel because you have shot so many of each out that you have gathered a scientifically significant amount of data using accepted scientific methods?
So what you're saying is, it might benefit a full-auto, but not a semi-auto because most semi-auto users don't fire at full auto rates? Are you even reading your own posts?
You're forgetting that Chrome has a higher heat resistance to it and more Chrome = more HEAT RESISTANCE, equating to longer barrel life (why do you think they use it in the M249?). Thicker chrome also results in the Chrome having a more solid, crystaline structure compared to a thinner layer of it, meaning it has more integrity under high heat.
You're also forgetting the M249 steel is tailored to a higher heat environment, meaning I can run my barrel hotter (provided the profiles are the same) if I have to (if only marginally so). Noveske also uses a redesigned profile for better heat distribution over the standard M4 profile.
Further, you're forgetting that some users DO use their uppers on full-auto and a few routinely do high volume fire that rivals F/A rates in terms of elapsed time. A M249 steel and chrome profile directly benefit the rifle in these cases. So yes, it IS a benefit, if only to a handful of users.
I don't have to shoot out barrels to know that certain aspects of physics remain in place. If a barrel (that is otherwise identical in function/performance to an M4 barrel) that is made for an M249 is put on an AR, then through logic and deduction, it will benefit from it. How much it will benefit from it may be subjective and perhaps unnoticeable to most, but it's still an absolute benefit.
That's fine then, I was wrong about that. They really should update their website.
Or you should research before posting.
Or you should research before posting.
:rolleyes:
Singlestack Wonder
11-11-10, 12:57
I suggest referring to the "Chart" for future reference. It shows that DD does HPI testing. Why not use this excellent tool that was the result of much research by Rob_S on the various AR manufacturers.
As far as the nasty language, not needed here.
Chris17404
11-11-10, 13:07
Holy crap! Thanks for degrading my thread requesting fact and experience-based feedback into a shit storm! 95% of the posts in this thread are useless to me.
When the throat and muzzle erode, they erode. Period. It's not the substrate that erodes, it's the lining. Increasing the lining won't stop erosion. Having twice the thickness of chrome lining won't keep the top layer from wearing, and when it wears out, and the physical space is increased, what's underneath won't matter.
But the crux of the issue is how a machine gun barrel matters in a semi-automatic carbine. How many standard barrels have you shot out? Have you noticed an increase in the duty life of your beloved barrels versus a standard barrel because you have shot so many of each out that you have gathered a scientifically significant amount of data using accepted scientific methods? Oh, you haven't? So you're just spouting off marketing terms off the cuff, huh? What is that old cliche about throwing stones in a glass house?
I personally love this paragraph. Not only is it obvious you have not done this same research to determine just how worthless M249 steel and double thick chrome lining apparently is, but the crux of your argument is that superior materials and processes result in no net gain. Apparently, this is because you say so.
While I can agree these features will not impact most people, it doesn't mean that they are worthless features or some sort of gimmick. We're not talking about chrome or paint stripes--we're talking about superior steel for the job combined with extra protection. Anyhow, I guess that's my .02 on that.
To the OP, to reiterate what a lot of people have said, all of them are GTG. I own a couple BCM guns and a Noveske; all have been nothing short of excellent. The only reason I don't have a DD is I currently don't have the use for another AR besides filling up the stable!
I apologize for cursing, I don't appreciate being called a fool off the bat for having a different opinion. I personally don't see a NEED for them and think they are gimmicky. In the interest of full disclosure, I'm waiting for Paul to release the BFH lightweight 16" midlength uppers and I will own my first hammer forged AR barrel. Will I notice a difference from a standard barrel? Maybe, maybe not. I guess I'll find out.
Gimmicks provide no useful benefit, the N4 barrel, for those who so desire it, has an increased barrel life and a profile I think is ideal. Barrel life is a damned good benefit if you ask me. Yes, you pay more for it, you need to factor the cost increase based on the ammo you shoot and buy what you feel is right for you, but to say it is a gimmick is wrong.
justin_247
11-11-10, 13:27
Where do you see HPT on Daniel Defense's website? They claim their barrels are MPI, but not a word is said about HPT. The same goes for their BCGs. I guess you could somehow prove me wrong?
From here: http://www.danieldefense.com/?page=shop/barrel
All Daniel Defense barrels are HP and MPI tested, chrome lined, and heavy phosphate coated.
Seriously- you need to relax. It has been discussed here plenty of times.
Where do you see HPT on Daniel Defense's website? They claim their barrels are MPI, but not a word is said about HPT. The same goes for their BCGs. I guess you could somehow prove me wrong?
justin_247
11-11-10, 13:35
No comments.
Rattlehead
11-11-10, 13:56
Holy crap! Thanks for degrading my thread requesting fact and experience-based feedback into a shit storm! 95% of the posts in this thread are useless to me.
I don't have a DD, but I do have a complete VIS 2AK upper that I bought from Noveske, with Infidel barrel. Very nice upper. Like another poster mentioned, you might want to check out KAC, top quality and incredibly light, it's worth the price in my opinion (I love my E3 upper ;)). Like many others are saying you really can't go wrong, they all make good stuff; it comes down to personal preference.
Chris,
You are right this thread has gone down the spiral. I would research the site and read some more about both. Personally I think any of the above will be more than suitable for you. All 3 companies make great products and are willing to back them up as both of them have shown repeatedly.
Unless there is some dire need to leave this open, it's down for the count.
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