View Full Version : After the Sunset: The Effects After the AWB.
Mauser KAR98K
11-11-10, 12:06
I'm curious about this topic. In fact, I might do this as a small essay for one of my classes: What has the sunset of the assault weapons ban done to the AR-15/M4/M-16 and others?
I seem to always be a generation behind all the new and cool stuff in the world when it comes to technology (computers, MP3's and the like) to even now in firearms and the roles and techniques. It is correct to say that you can't keep track of everything all the time with day-to-day events. So when I open up a new magazine about firearms and techniques, I feel I've experienced a culture shock within my own culture. It seems I am reeducating myself from information that is three to four years old. What is also interesting to me is that many of the tactics and training, I have experienced have either gone away--of course--or more surprisingly, have been expanded into roles in the current war, or in Law Enforcement--basing this off what little 3-gunning I have done.
I will admit there are huge gaps in my initial observations. But there is something I can't deny: Since the sunset, AR-15 technology has VASTLY improved in a short time with companies that started as small adds in Shotgun News or other magazines, and are now leading the way in advancements with rifles and tactics. Could this be just the effect of the lessons learned in Afghanistan and Iraq being trust into the civilian market, or is it the 3-gun and tactical carbine element of the civilian side that is generating this improvement of the AR-15, and has the the passing of the AWB greatly influenced all of this in some way?
Two effects primarily IMHO...a good view of the law of supply and demand at work, and a broader-based appeal of the platform making it more popular and therefore with broader market appeal, therefore enhanced innovation and a higher quality demand.
Small companies drive innovation, based on what theyr perceive to be consumer demand and need.
Colt, for example, is still using carbine length gas systems. Other companies innovated and came up with, and started producing, midlengths. Just one example.
My own opinion (read: anecdotal evidence) is that the major influence is coming from the domestic/civilian world of competition with influences from the war.
Mauser KAR98K
11-11-10, 12:35
My own opinion (read: anecdotal evidence) is that the major influence is coming from the domestic/civilian world of competition with influences from the war.
So has the the sunset of the AWB created a better "environment" for those influence. For example, the latest modifications of collapsible stocks? Magpul, VLTOR, Tapco?
So has the the sunset of the AWB created a better "environment" for those influence. For example, the latest modifications of collapsible stocks? Magpul, VLTOR, Tapco?
Actually, most of these stocks are designed with the use of body armor in mind. Also, absolutely nothing Tapco offers is innovative, unique, or particularly well designed.
Im curious about this topic too as i was 10 years old when the AWB essentially died. I was too young to understand what was going on but i was of age to experience the growth and development of the AR15 into what it is today.
I have almost zero knowledge of what the firearms scene was like prior to 1996 when i first became interested in firearms.
I think the huge surge of interest in the AR stems a lot from the war. Lots of vets comming home and wanting something similar to what they had overseas. Also lots of people out there worried about possible future attacks in the US and wanting to use what the high speed low drag guys are doing.
I think a lot of the trainig techniques are being thought up in competition and is evolving and being used on the battlefield. I can tell you for sure that I handle my AR now differently and more efficiently than I did a few years ago when I was in the Army, and thats because of my LEO rifle training which takes a lot from Magpul.
Unfortunately, a number of individual states decided to impliment their own version of the AWB...including mine. :mad:
To me, it appears that the sunset of the AWB renewed interest in the AR platform as the items banned or controlled are what now comprise the variety of features available.
Basically, the platform was fixed and new builds could not be modified much which killed interest. Why spend $1k on a fixed stock 10 shot, rifle?
Once the ban sunset and people could buy full capacity magazines, real collapsible stocks and not pinned copies, and they could chamge flash hiders, interest was renewed in the platform.
That renewed interest has driven a variety of innovation from companies like Magpul, Noveske, BCM, etc. The new products and variations (along with a couple of conflicts) have kept that interest going.
Simply, the sunset, enabled a resurgence of interest which drove a rush of innovation that we are still experiencing.
I was stationed in Va Beach before and during the sunset and was a frequent caller to then Sen. Warner's office. He had voted against the AWB in 1994 but changed positions with the intention of supporting a renewal. He tried to claim crime as his rational but every statistic worked against him....after a while, I think his office recognized my number and just forwarded me to the same assistant above the phone answers....:laugh:
I remember my first AR-15, a Bushmaster "M4" with the mini-y compensator I bought new in 2003. I only bought it because at the time I couldn't find a Colt locally for within $500 of the Bushmaster. It worked, but oh my god that mini-y comp. :suicide:
I got rid of it shortly after the ban ended. I think the post above me hit the nail on the head, the market has exploded in the past 5 years or so, and it's definitely because the ban ended. Think about it, if you didn't want an M16 or A2 stock during the ban your choices were a pinned M4 or an ACE. *shudder*
sunset my ass...
still high noon here in Jersey :(
The gun of today is drastically different than the gun of 2004 before the ban ended.
The sunsetting of the Fed AWB opened up new markets which have been exploited by folks like Magpul, VLTOR, BCM, DD, PWS, Troy, etc etc etc.
Even if some of the innovations came about due to the war circumstances, for the most part, the military is not a big enough customer to make a successful business as an ongoing concern. At least to the extent that we see today with Magpul, VLTOR, DD, etc. These companies could never have existed and be where they are today without the sunsetting of the ban.
I think the huge surge of interest in the AR stems a lot from the war. Lots of vets comming home and wanting something similar to what they had overseas.
That, and civilians at home wanting the guns and gear they saw on the news.
Shooting wars can prompt lots of innovation when it comes to small arms. We live in a time where prototyping is more rapid than ever and new products can be generated extremely quickly. Combine all of the above factors and you can see how the market for the AR and accessories for the AR has changed so much, so quickly.
I actually think the war had little to do with what we see today. Some of the specific products and stuff, sure. But the people I was shooting with before the war were into defensive shooting tactics and training, and none of them were military folks. The options were more limited then unless you had preban gun, which were expensive, but these same people, once the ban went away, pushed the envelope and ideas of defensive shooting. The sunset of the ban unleashed the creativity and resourcefulness of people who were held back by artificial legal limits previously.
I think the military benefited more from the civilian people pushing the envelope more then the civilians benefitted from the military doing things with the platform.
I think the military benefited more from the civilian people pushing the envelope more then the civilians benefitted from the military doing things with the platform.
Absolutely....
Though the military had the budgets to advance expensive items like optics, many other items like slings, handguards, and back-up sights were bought by soldiers and taken with them to war.
Here's what I think. The M4 was really just going into adoption phase with the military when the AWB hit. Which is why we really didn't see any major stuff going on with the platform until the early 2000's.
Once the ban sunsetted from what I saw the tactical market really seemed to pickup as did sales of firearms and magazines. I think the next major boost came from the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. We then start to see improvements in accessories and somewhat of a validation of the system which still had a bad wrap from Vietnam.
I say that because during Desert Storm and Somalia the use of the M16A2/M4 was only used for a limited duration.
The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have been hard on the weapons and with the exception of the criticism about M855 ammunition it seems to have proven itself.
Code7inoaktown
11-11-10, 14:05
sunset my ass...
still high noon here in Jersey :(
Same in California, New York and Massachusetts.
For those in the free states -- remember to support those trapped behind enemy lines and simply not say I'm glad I don't live there.
Beat Trash
11-11-10, 14:26
I think a combination of factors were involved to open a proverbial floodgate after the AWB.
Combat operations with the M-4 helped to show what worked, and what type of improvements were needed as far as accessories (Red Dot Optics, Lights Rails ect.).
Many returning combat veterans liked having a gun they were familiar with.
The general public was denied access to this type of AR unless it was pre-ban. This caused some desire (forbidden fruit, so to speak) and a mad rush to get one once new guns were available.
The Law Enforcement community started to really embrace the AR platform, dubbing it a "Patrol Rifle". Where once the concept of LEO's armed with "evil looking assault rifles we're trying to ban" was politically unthinkable, LEO's with "Patrol Rifles" to offset gangs and terrorist threats isn't such a big deal politically. (I was partially involved in our Patrol Rifle program when it started in 2005.)
Many people became concerned with their safety. The events following Hurricane Katrina in the gulf coast, the possibility of new terrorist attacks within CONUS, ect. led many people to want to obtain a carbine. If this type of gun is good enough for the Military and Law Enforcement, then that's what they wanted also.
This combination of factors put more guns out there. More people shooting these guns discovered how shooter friendly they are, and how fun they are to shoot. More people shooting the more shooter friendly guns leads to more people looking to modify, change or "upgrade" their guns.
All of these factors and more created a new market. The constant evolution as companies adapt to stay competitive and profitable while serving the needs of the Military, Law Enforcement, and the civilian market makes this the best of times for a shooter in my opinion.
Look at what your options were in 1994 vs. 2004 vs. today.
Massive industry growth IMHO.
Massive developmental growth as the manufacturers of military weapons.
Honestly, the civilian market drives innovation at a much faster pace than the military. Because our demand and our willingness to adopt is honestly, in some cases as fast as the manufacturers can engineer and produce a product.
I mean look at MG developments since the MG ban... honestly.
We really haven't seen any.... real major developments in 15-20 years.
And I say developments I mean new weapons platforms. New Rifles, new concepts.
The technology has largely stagnated where it was in the mid-80's.
I mean look at honestly the re-emergence of the Gas Piston Rifles in the last 5 years... (I say re-emergence because I mean look at the garand, the market was dominated by DI AR's). Look at newly released rifles (and some, honestly, just new companies) from FN, bushmaster, remington, ruger, sig, kac, lwrc, hk, dd, bcm, (even colt's now catching on) etc.
Look at the amount of manufacturers getting involved in this niche market of large capacity intermediate ranged rifles. Beyond just re-engineered AR's.
I'm an advocate of DI in the AR platform, but, the pace of accessories and their growth/change.
IMHO, the Civilian market is what keeps most Weapon Manufacturer's in business.
The military is in a unique situation where they're buying lots of weapons and accessories because we're in a time of war.
But as soon as that ends... budget cuts, necessity for change, those things all go on the back burner, as a politicians cut costs, the market will go again on the shoulders of citizens largely, IMHO.
Their purse strings will be tightened and they will use what they have.
The civilian market is just much more nimble than any government run organization to adopt a new weapons system, and much more consistent demand, and honestly, it's a fairer market, IMHO.
Don't overlook the geopolitical situation WITHIN the USA, too. From President Clinton's Administration up to now has been fraught with economic and political uncertainty. Those who perceive such things and have the disposable income have responded by purchasing multiple items, accessories, components and training. I, for one, would not be interested if it were not for the concerns of serious instability in the near future. Hurricanes Katrina and Gustav simply brought this to the forefront of many down here.
Could this be just the effect of the lessons learned in Afghanistan and Iraq being trust into the civilian market, or is it the 3-gun and tactical carbine element of the civilian side that is generating this improvement of the AR-15, and has the the passing of the AWB greatly influenced all of this in some way?
I'd say none of these have led the way or originated any changes.
I would say it is more like the experienced gun people on this website who knew what had to be done to move the industry forward. There was just never any connectivity between these people until the advent of the internet.
Sunsetting of the AWB may have provided a market for new stuff.
That the sunsetting of the AWB has had a tremendous impact on the development of the modern AR and other military pattern weapons, there is no doubt.
During the ban, the .gov needed a company to develop a magazine with a capacity of greater than 10 rounds for a new rifle that was being proposed. They could not get anyone to do the work for them because it could not be made available on the open market to recoup development costs. It seems the .gov had earlier tasked a company for a new mag and when the plug was pulled on the project, the company was left holding the bag for the development costs and was stuck with a magazine they couldn't sell and no one was willing to try again
ursus.peracto
11-11-10, 19:02
Don't overlook the geopolitical situation WITHIN the USA, too. From President Clinton's Administration up to now has been fraught with economic and political uncertainty. Those who perceive such things and have the disposable income have responded by purchasing multiple items, accessories, components and training. I, for one, would not be interested if it were not for the concerns of serious instability in the near future. Hurricanes Katrina and Gustav simply brought this to the forefront of many down here.
This, and you can throw in the LA riots. Also Paulson threatened some members of Congress with Martial Law if banks weren't rescued after the Lehman collapse. Anarchy being broadcast on the evening news and the AWB expiration lead for a powerful desire for firearms.
http://www.historiansagainstwar.org/blog/2008/11/did-henry-paulson-threaten-congress.html
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11681
FromMyColdDeadHand
11-11-10, 19:09
What is the class and what is the assignment?
This, and you can throw in the LA riots. Also Paulson threatened some members of Congress with Martial Law if banks weren't rescued after the Lehman collapse. Anarchy being broadcast on the evening news and the AWB expiration lead for a powerful desire for firearms.
http://www.historiansagainstwar.org/blog/2008/11/did-henry-paulson-threaten-congress.html
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11681
Completey "forgot" about those events - especially the latter.
It was the LA Riots that woke my sleepy rear end up as Reginald Denny could have been anyone (White, Black, Hispanic, Asian); a pistol would have been very useful. I recalled being "amazed" by the little black rifle and all of the hooplah about it. Everything was so new. The 'good old days'.
I'm curious about this topic. In fact, I might do this as a small essay for one of my classes: What has the sunset of the assault weapons ban done to the AR-15/M4/M-16 and others?
1. Several states copied the federal AWB, and the federal sunset did not cause a domino-effect sunset of the state SWBs. So we are left with several AWB states, making legal compliance a bit of a mess.
2. Right after the AWB expired, there was a resurgence of demand for high capacity rifles and pistols, so sales climbed. New companies sprouted with many new offerings. The AR-15 quickly became the product leader. I have heard (not sure if true) that the AR-15 is the biggest selling gun model in the US at this time. There are also many more options available for the AR15 than for any other combat rifle.
3. I am sure that some of the product development is attributable to 2 ongoing wars, but much of it is funded by the civilian market. Without the civilian market supporting the AR-15 platform (i.e., AWB did not sunset), many of the new developments would not have come about, and many of the companies that made the new developments would not have existed.
4. Due to generalized concerns about SHTF / zombie attacks (and having seen the Rodney King riots and Katrina on tv), many people began stocking up on high capacity rifles, pistols, mags and ammo. Then when the Democratic primary campaign showed that either Hilary Clinton of B.H.O., both rabid anti-gunners, would be the party's nominee, more people made purchases. And when BHO was elected, a mad and frenzied rush for every type of firearm and ammo, and the AR15 in particular, resulted. People feared not just more gun control, but also generalized social instability. (They still do.) People who had never owned a gun bought one. People who had never owned a gun and had never had a concealed weapon permit bought both. More and more civilians began attending shooting courses. Etc. Announcements by Erick Holder that new firearms laws were needed fueled sales. Announcements by the United Nations that international gun control was needed and Sec State Hillary Clinton's support of that policy fueled sales. Mex Prez Felipe Calderone's speech to a left-wing Congress calling for more gun control, which got a standing ovation from Congress, fueled sales. Violence along the Mex border and Mex drug violence in the US fueled sales. The downturn in the economy which gave rise to fears of more crime and social instability fueled sales. The Mumbai, India terrorist attacks, which could also be carried out in the USA, fueled sales. And riots in Europe over economic and budgetary situations fueled sales.
It continues today, although presently there is a temporary downturn in the firearm market generally, due in part to economic conditions and due in part to the fact that so many people over-bought during the post-election period.
Overall, the AWB sunset has been beneficial to both military and civilian users of this weapon platform, providing them with more options, better products, more competition and better pricing than has been seen before.
Mauser KAR98K
11-12-10, 10:53
1. Several states copied the federal AWB, and the federal sunset did not cause a domino-effect sunset of the state SWBs. So we are left with several AWB states, making legal compliance a bit of a mess.
2. Right after the AWB expired, there was a resurgence of demand for high capacity rifles and pistols, so sales climbed. New companies sprouted with many new offerings. The AR-15 quickly became the product leader. I have heard (not sure if true) that the AR-15 is the biggest selling gun model in the US at this time. There are also many more options available for the AR15 than for any other combat rifle.
3. I am sure that some of the product development is attributable to 2 ongoing wars, but much of it is funded by the civilian market. Without the civilian market supporting the AR-15 platform (i.e., AWB did not sunset), many of the new developments would not have come about, and many of the companies that made the new developments would not have existed.
4. Due to generalized concerns about SHTF / zombie attacks (and having seen the Rodney King riots and Katrina on tv), many people began stocking up on high capacity rifles, pistols, mags and ammo. Then when the Democratic primary campaign showed that either Hilary Clinton of B.H.O., both rabid anti-gunners, would be the party's nominee, more people made purchases. And when BHO was elected, a mad and frenzied rush for every type of firearm and ammo, and the AR15 in particular, resulted. People feared not just more gun control, but also generalized social instability. (They still do.) People who had never owned a gun bought one. People who had never owned a gun and had never had a concealed weapon permit bought both. More and more civilians began attending shooting courses. Etc. Announcements by Erick Holder that new firearms laws were needed fueled sales. Announcements by the United Nations that international gun control was needed and Sec State Hillary Clinton's support of that policy fueled sales. Mex Prez Felipe Calderone's speech to a left-wing Congress calling for more gun control, which got a standing ovation from Congress, fueled sales. Violence along the Mex border and Mex drug violence in the US fueled sales. The downturn in the economy which gave rise to fears of more crime and social instability fueled sales. The Mumbai, India terrorist attacks, which could also be carried out in the USA, fueled sales. And riots in Europe over economic and budgetary situations fueled sales.
It continues today, although presently there is a temporary downturn in the firearm market generally, due in part to economic conditions and due in part to the fact that so many people over-bought during the post-election period.
Overall, the AWB sunset has been beneficial to both military and civilian users of this weapon platform, providing them with more options, better products, more competition and better pricing than has been seen before.
I've always agreed with the saying from here that the AR-15 is the grown man's Barbie Doll.
I too have been fueled with the desire to "arm up" due to economic instability--and me, being a history major, becoming frightened with the policies that struggling and failed countries have done in the past. Last words I want Obama to say with all this spending is, "now let me be clear, we need breathing room."
But, back to the topic at hand. I have to say that my original conclusion has almost dead on with everyone's observations, and has me, actually, excited. Not in the terms that the current situation in the country/world and the sunset of the AWB is a good thing, because it isn't and it should honestly never be the justification factor to buying arms. By no means I'm saying that turmoil shouldn't be the deciding factor--that's a no brainer there for self and homeland defense. It is that it shouldn't have to come to that. But politicians do odd and mind-numbing things, and frankly, shit does indeed happen.
But what I am excited about is something that has come up repeatedly with this topic: the civilian market has become the main source of innovation, an observation I made in the OP. This very conclusion is our next front against those proposing another AWB in the future. We, the American firearms community, facilitate innovations that are going to the battlefield, or on patrol from our the lessons and needs observed from our sport, self-defense and other forms of missions we experience. Between the ever popular 3-gun matches, ranchers out on the boarder states protecting their lands, to those in urban areas with close quarters issues in mind, a band will stagnate further innovations that could turn around and hurt our soldiers, sailors, Marines, Coasties, and Airmen, and ultimately our national security.
In conclusion, and with the great arguments and observations from the posters here, the sunset of the AWB that only restricted certain cosmetic features, those features have now become the forefront on new designs, techniques, and new standards. Collapsible stocks like VLOT's EMOD, or Magpul's UBR have been new innovations that have come from the civilian market since the AWB lapsed. The PMAG, possibly the best high capacity magazine on the market, again, came after the AWB sunset. New assortments of flash suppressors that are breaking new ground for shooters. The sunset has given the warriors new horizons for improvements, and those improvements coming from the civilians who do missions that differ just as much as the combat environment. In 1921-22, The Five Power Treaty restricted tonnage limits for capital ships of the navies of Britain, America, Japan, Italy and France. These limits, along with budget cuts, seriously hampered the development of the aircraft carrier as a primary weapon in naval warfare. It wasn't until the coming rise of WWII and after Pearl Harbor that the need for carriers exploded. The same can be said of today's situation of the AR-15 and the effect that the AWB had in further development in that platform, and others. No more do I see arguments that the AK47 is better in reliability than the AR-15 platform. Today, from my observations, that argument has been turned around. The innovations have helped.
Army Chief
11-12-10, 11:45
For those in the free states -- remember to support those trapped behind enemy lines and simply not say I'm glad I don't live there.
Point taken, though it is more likely that you would hear me say that I won't live there -- and if I were to find myself in such a state, I would relocate to another part of the country. Not saying that is an easy choice, obviously, but after spending most of the past decade abroad, I feel strongly enough about this issue (and the larger concern of individual freedoms in general) that I refuse to compromise by living in a liberal ban state.
Moving is still a valid option ...
Captain Vasili Borodin: I will live in Montana. And I will marry a round American woman and raise rabbits, and she will cook them for me. And I will have a pickup truck ... maybe even a "recreational vehicle." And drive from state to state. Do they let you do that?
Captain Marko Ramius: I suppose.
Captain Vasili Borodin: No papers?
Captain Marko Ramius: No papers, state to state.
AC
m1a_scoutguy
11-12-10, 13:04
Unfortunately, a number of individual states decided to impliment their own version of the AWB...including mine. :mad:
:mad::mad::mad::mad: Yea,,I hear ya,,no big deal for NY,,nothing has changed !! Yea I agree with the above,,,somebody always says just MOVE,,,well its not always that easy,,,there are MORE important things in life that worring about a collapsible stock or a flash hider,,LOL !!! They would be nice,,,but really don't affect alot of things,,although P-Mags would be nice !!! I always relate it to the "Nightmare On Elm Street Movies",,,why the hell didn't the kids just move off Elm Street,,LOL,,,sometimes ya just can't,,,,LOL !!!!
Most of you guys have hit the nail on the head. I lived through the ban and bought my first AR shortly after it went into effect. I got an Armalite with a mid length gas system and bought about five used GI mags. I grew to hate that mid-length because neither of the two available rail systems fit a mid-length rifle. GI mags in the wrapper with the green followers were going for nearly $30. And I figured I’d only need about five(!) for the rest of my life. At the time, everyone was clamoring for a pre-ban. There was a list of manufacturers on AR15.com that had the serial number ranges for everyone that made lowers or complete rifles prior to the ban. I had a copy of that I took with me when I was shopping. The Holy Grail at the time was to get a pre-ban Colt and put a new top end on it and collapsible stock. I remember bidding on a Colt 20” HBAR on eBay; I bowed out when the bidding hit $1600. I eventually built a pre-ban on a Colt SP-1 lower I bought for $1000(!). Aimpoint batteries only lasted a thousand hours, so most guys didn’t run them. There were maybe two or three choices for grips at the time; same with stocks. This little outfit in Colorado started up in 1999 by selling these little rubber things that slipped over the end of a magazine to make them easier to pull out of a pouch. Some guys liked these ‘Magpuls’, but others didn’t care for them. Pre-ban Glock mags were $75. These were truly the dark times.
Then the ban lifted, and things went nuts. Guys were dumping thousands of dollars buying mags, guns, etc. It was crazy. I remember hammering the phone for hours trying to track down 6920s or LMTs. Now everyone and their brother had a rifle with a collapsible stock, and we always wanted something new and different. At the same time, the mil guys were finding out that the basic platform of the M4 was solid, but they could use some improvements. Military contractors were buying the best stuff they could get, and gun-geeks were setting their guns up just like them. Outfits like Magpul, Vltor, LaRue, Daniel Defense, and a dozen others began to feed this after market beast. Things like Katrina got more people into defensive arms and those that bought pistols shortly after 9/11 or Katrina decided to expand their hobby and get rifles. Red dot sights got better and better, with batteries that lasted longer than presidents. It was like a perfect storm. All that pent up demand stoked the fires of innovation, which spawned new products, which caused guys to drop what they had and buy new stuff, which fed more money into the industry. Political election cycles sent jitters of paranoia through the firearms community. No one wanted to be left behind if another ban dropped. This launched another burst of demand, peaking with the Obama madness of ’09.
I look back at what passed for a top of the line rifle in 1994: A basic Colt rifle like a Government Carbine. At the peak of the ban, circa ’99-‘00: A flat top Colt M4gery with a KAC RAS, ARMS flip up rear sight(!) and a Surefire classic light. The day after the ban ended I put together an LMT that was not a lot different than that Colt, except I had an Aimpoint M2 and a Surefire M900 light. How about today? The sky is the limit. KAC, Noveske, BCM, DD, and LaRue pump out top of the line rifles, to name just a few. Hammer forged barrels, Pmags, ambi lowers, a bazillion different rails, LMT MRPs, SCARs, ACRs etc. It’s amazing how far we’ve come in the last few years.
Look at this way: In the early 2000’s, what did companies like BCM, Daniel Defense, Magpul, Vltor, Tango Down, and Noveske look like? If they existed at all, they were at best little one or two hit wonders trying to fill a small niche. Now they are giants of the industry with well established reputations for innovation and quality. All of this primarily fueled by the commercial market. The military and law enforcement may have some influence on the commercial sector because most users like to buy what SWAT cops and SEALs use, but the money that enables all that innovation and product development comes from gun geeks like you and me.
Moose-Knuckle
11-12-10, 16:05
The night the ban died I was shopping on line for hi caps of every kind. I spent over $1K on mags alone after the ban. I was 14 when it went into effect and I wasn't going to wait and see if Hiliary or Barry where going to implement another ban. That night all over America I think you could hear guys in their garages and shops threading bare muzzles, replacing stocks, etc. That night I swaped stocks on my Colt Match Target (6530) and one of my AKs.
As others have mentioned the AR market really took off after the ban went away. Telescoping stocks took off, Vltor, Magpul, LMT, etc.
Mauser KAR98K
11-12-10, 16:47
I look back at what passed for a top of the line rifle in 1994: A basic Colt rifle like a Government Carbine. At the peak of the ban, circa ’99-‘00: A flat top Colt M4gery with a KAC RAS, ARMS flip up rear sight(!) and a Surefire classic light. The day after the ban ended I put together an LMT that was not a lot different than that Colt, except I had an Aimpoint M2 and a Surefire M900 light. How about today? The sky is the limit. KAC, Noveske, BCM, DD, and LaRue pump out top of the line rifles, to name just a few. Hammer forged barrels, Pmags, ambi lowers, a bazillion different rails, LMT MRPs, SCARs, ACRs etc. It’s amazing how far we’ve come in the last few years.
Look at this way: In the early 2000’s, what did companies like BCM, Daniel Defense, Magpul, Vltor, Tango Down, and Noveske look like? If they existed at all, they were at best little one or two hit wonders trying to fill a small niche. Now they are giants of the industry with well established reputations for innovation and quality. All of this primarily fueled by the commercial market. The military and law enforcement may have some influence on the commercial sector because most users like to buy what SWAT cops and SEALs use, but the money that enables all that innovation and product development comes from gun geeks like you and me.
You know, I was beginning to wounder if I really was living under a rock when I would periodically open a Shotgun news or other magazines and just see all the new stuff and wonder "where the hell I have been?" I guess rocket sled on rails is the best term of the past four years, I guess.
1. Several states copied the federal AWB, and the federal sunset did not cause a domino-effect sunset of the state SWBs. So we are left with several AWB states, making legal compliance a bit of a mess.
Most of you guys in US do not realize that AWB lives on still on federal level. Since some time after it's official sunset it become enforced and to the letter in... export. And it's not some international ITAR, etc. regulations but purely voluntarily BATF restrictions on issuing export permit for firearms both for licensed companies or private persons. Hell, once I did not get "export licence" for carbine AR-Restor buffer, because on invoice it was called "Collapsible Buttstock AR-Restor" - refused "no licence on collapsible buttstocks for civilian use". When Stag wanted to export some Model-1 carbines to Poland they were forced to do this mods:
- fixed, rifle buttstocks,
- shaved off bayonet lugs,
- removed barrel threads and pinned muzzle brakes,
- 10 rounds magazines instead of 30 rd ones.
Hell, even pure sport match rifles from JP are now sent with plain end barrel, because thread for brake makes them "assault" and no export licence.
When bureaucracy gets use of something... they will always find way to keep it working. Here or there...
Luckily now we can have some quality ARs made in Europe (like HK, Sabre Defense, OA or even Czech made PAR) that are not neutered.
For me personally, the combination of the sunset along with events in the wake of Katrina, increased likelihood of civil unrest, meltdowns resulting from new terrorist attacks, and economic pressures which may well become extreme brought me to the decision to add ARs to my firearms options. I've been involved with firearms and defense oriented for many years, but recently this all has come to a head for me and the recognition of the great capacity (made possible by the sunset) along with the great handling and low recoil of the platform made the AR a no brainer for me. Add in the Barbie Doll/lego factor and the numerous potential options and exploring this is difficult to resist. I'm sure these same considerations have driven countless others to adopt and take advantage of the innovations to the platform in recent years.
If you're going to write a paper (I assume for a college class) and really want to get to 'them' dove tail the boom in the AR market with the concept of the government getting out of the way (sunset of AWB) and supply sided economics.
There are lots of posts here stating demand and companies willing to meet said demand so I won't repeat.
Mauser KAR98K
11-13-10, 12:32
If you're going to write a paper (I assume for a college class) and really want to get to 'them' dove tail the boom in the AR market with the concept of the government getting out of the way (sunset of AWB) and supply sided economics.
There are lots of posts here stating demand and companies willing to meet said demand so I won't repeat.
Right, and that is something I'm not going to leave out (if I actually do a paper on this, which would be interesting none the least). Really, I wanted to see if my thoughts had any other supporters to this idea I have had for some time now.
I think the huge surge of interest in the AR stems a lot from the war. Lots of vets coming home and wanting something similar to what they had overseas.
Although this is true to a small degree, I would venture the largest market for the AR platform is for the OVER-35 crowd, not the 22-25 year-old soldier coming home.
Few of the vets returning from the gulf are going directly into competitive shooting or hunting with the AR platform. Some, yes... most, no.
With the slightly inhibitive "entry" price of around $1000 for an AR, I'd guess the biggest demographic for buyers is the white-collar 35 year-old plus crowd, who can afford them, who is buying for: 1) Home Defense/Plinking/Cool-factor, 2) Competition (as the Practical Pistol disciplines expand to 2-Gun and 3-Gun), and finally 3) Former Military/Reserve buying a gun similar to their service weapon, like Vets buying 1911s after WWII and Korea.
Jeff
Mauser KAR98K
11-13-10, 13:00
Although this is true to a small degree, I would venture the largest market for the AR platform is for the OVER-35 crowd, not the 22-25 year-old soldier coming home.
Few of the vets returning from the gulf are going directly into competitive shooting or hunting with the AR platform. Some, yes... most, no.
With the slightly inhibitive "entry" price of around $1000 for an AR, I'd guess the biggest demographic for buyers is the white-collar 35 year-old plus crowd, who can afford them, who is buying for: 1) Home Defense/Plinking/Cool-factor, 2) Competition (as the Practical Pistol disciplines expand to 2-Gun and 3-Gun), and finally 3) Former Military/Reserve buying a gun similar to their service weapon, like Vets buying 1911s after WWII and Korea.
Jeff
I disagree with your assessment of the age groups buying ARs. I think the medium range is 22-35, give or take, as illustrated here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcT1mw0i4fE&playnext=1&list=PL57C6E82AC8B2D2D1&index=49
I have a lot of classmates that fit below the 35-over who have AR's and are planning get more. Granted that they are you entry level platforms, but some, like me, are leaning to personal builds. Now, I don't see a lot of three gun in my area (probably because we don't have a range to hold it locally and not tear it up), the desires and the college funds are there.
RogerinTPA
11-13-10, 14:54
I think the huge surge of interest in the AR stems a lot from the war. Lots of vets comming home and wanting something similar to what they had overseas. Also lots of people out there worried about possible future attacks in the US and wanting to use what the high speed low drag guys are doing.
I think a lot of the trainig techniques are being thought up in competition and is evolving and being used on the battlefield. I can tell you for sure that I handle my AR now differently and more efficiently than I did a few years ago when I was in the Army, and thats because of my LEO rifle training which takes a lot from Magpul.
Agreed. The most innovative companies in the AR arena have been Magpul, Bravocompanyusa, both developed by current war veterans and Marines, and Daniel Defense for there free float rails and now ARS. IMHO, everything else that came afterward is a knockoff in one form or fashion.
Moose-Knuckle
11-13-10, 15:05
The most innovative companies in the AR arena have been Magpul, Bravocompanyusa...
IMHO, everything else that came afterward is a knockoff in one form or fashion.
The same can be said about Magpul and BCM. KAC has been on the block long before any one else. A.R.M.S. was making throw levers before anyone had ever heard of Mark LaRue.
Vltor was making stocks before Magpul.
RogerinTPA
11-13-10, 15:16
The same can be said about Magpul and BCM. KAC has been on the block long before any one else. A.R.M.S. was making throw levers before anyone had ever heard of Mark LaRue.
Agreed. Forgot about KAC for their contributions with their innovative rails. Another big driving force was SOCOM with their SOPMOD development program to improve on the stock M-4. It drove a lot of what we see today with all of the add on modular features, slowly trickled down to all the other services as well as the civilian market.
Outlander Systems
11-13-10, 21:10
I'm surprised no one else has mentioned the fact that handguns were limited to 10 rounds during the dark ages.
THAT, to me, is the biggest game changer.
Moose-Knuckle
11-13-10, 21:54
I'm surprised no one else has mentioned the fact that handguns were limited to 10 rounds during the dark ages.
THAT, to me, is the biggest game changer.
GLOCK hi caps were half of the $1K I dropped after the sunset.
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