Researching first build. Opinions welcomed.

[Steve99Slomaro]

Okay, so here’s the deal. I’m looking to purchase my first AR in the near future. After procrastination for over a year, I finally decided to start looking into it. At first, I had my heart set on just getting a Colt 16” AR in an attempt to mirror the rifle I had while in the Corps. I chose a 16” barrel length after being dissatisfied with the accuracy of the 14.5in M4 on the rifle range out at 500yards, and from not liking the cumbersomeness and weight of a full 20” infantry rifle length. Also, after doing some research, I found out that 62gr ball fired from a 14.5in barrel will lose effective velocity to properly fragment and shred its target before it even gets to 100m. So, a 16” mid-length is my choice.

Now, as for the brand of rifle, that is what I have found myself very open to. I would like to get a Colt quality rifle without the Colt price tag. So I’ve been doing some reading here on the internet for the last month, as well as consulting my Uncle who just so happens to be a gun nut who has built many match grade AR rifles. All in all, I’ve decided to build an AR. Being my first, I want to buy a complete flattop upper, and build my lower.

Here is what I’ve been looking at:

BCM 16” mid-length upper - http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-BFH-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid-16%20bfh.htm - $475
BCM BCG and Standard Charging handle - $135
Spikes Mil Spec stripped lower - http://www.spikestactical.com/z/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=104_65&products_id=170 - $99
Daniel Defense LPK w/ MOE trigger guard - http://dsgarms.com/ProductInfo/DD-05-013-21007.aspx - $70
MOE mid-length handguard - http://store.magpul.com/product/MAG418/122 - $34

I already have a BUIS designed for use with an M4 that I’m sure will work just fine with the 16” barrel. I prefer ironsights anyway.
As for the buttstock, I was thinking of getting an M16 buttstock. One that came off of the original M16s (not the M16A1, but THE M16. You know, the one that didn’t work so well). After going through a Tactical shooting course, I found that stock to have the perfect pull for me. Which is great because I prefer fixed stocks to adjustable. But if I did go the adjustable route, I was impressed with the Magpul CTR mil spec adjustable stocks.
Anyway, only problem with that stock is that I cant seem to find where I could buy one.

Well, that is what I’ve been tossing around in my mind as far as my build. My goal is to build a reliable, accurate battle rifle on a budget (total cost is looking around $900-1000). One that I can shoot a CQB course with, as well as take to the range and get consistent tight groups at 300m. And have it for one of those just-in-case times at home.

Now, here’s the kicker. I’ve only chosen BCM, Spikes, and DD LPK after reading about how great they are on various internet forums and from various customer reviews. Now, call me crazy, but I’m always skeptical about things that are unanimously talked up as being God-teir. My uncle has been building quality AR rifles for over 30 years and has never even heard of BCM. Now granted they are a newer company, it makes me even more skeptical. The last time I bought a product from a relatively new company that was highly recommended and had a good price, I ended up having a pressure plate go out on a Stage III clutch after only 8000 miles.

So what I’m really looking for is any reason I SHOULDN’T go with BCM, Spikes, and DD. Any nay-sayers out there are welcome, and any links to forums or customer reviews saying nasty things about them are much appreciated.

TL;DR – I want to build an AR with a BCM upper, a Spikes stripped lower, and a Daniel Defense LPK. I would like to hear any reason why these are bad choices.

[caelumatra]

I'd add a gunfighter charging handle mod 4. They are FANTASTIC

[Iraqgunz]

Alot of people to include many stores never heard of Bravo Company or BCM. To me that signals that they haven't been keeping up with the times and probably still tell people to stagger gas rings and apply lube sparingly.

I have a BCM 11.5" SBR that I built almost exclusively using their stuff. If I could take it with me next week on my little trip to A'stan I would do so in a heartbeat.

I don't get the correlation between the 14.5" not being accurate at 500 yards compared to a 16". Barrel length doesn't affect accuracy and there are plenty of people hitting targets (i.e. real life) at 500 yards with M4's.

Put some match ammo in a 14.5" and you would be surprised at what it will do. Something like Black Hills, Silver State Armory 77gr. or even Hornady 75gr. TAP.


Okay, so here’s the deal. I’m looking to purchase my first AR in the near future. After procrastination for over a year, I finally decided to start looking into it. At first, I had my heart set on just getting a Colt 16” AR in an attempt to mirror the rifle I had while in the Corps. I chose a 16” barrel length after being dissatisfied with the accuracy of the 14.5in M4 on the rifle range out at 500yards, and from not liking the cumbersomeness and weight of a full 20” infantry rifle length. Also, after doing some research, I found out that 62gr ball fired from a 14.5in barrel will lose effective velocity to properly fragment and shred its target before it even gets to 100m. So, a 16” mid-length is my choice.

Now, as for the brand of rifle, that is what I have found myself very open to. I would like to get a Colt quality rifle without the Colt price tag. So I’ve been doing some reading here on the internet for the last month, as well as consulting my Uncle who just so happens to be a gun nut who has built many match grade AR rifles. All in all, I’ve decided to build an AR. Being my first, I want to buy a complete flattop upper, and build my lower.

Here is what I’ve been looking at:

BCM 16” mid-length upper - http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-BFH-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid-16%20bfh.htm - $475
BCM BCG and Standard Charging handle - $135
Spikes Mil Spec stripped lower - http://www.spikestactical.com/z/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=104_65&products_id=170 - $99
Daniel Defense LPK w/ MOE trigger guard - http://dsgarms.com/ProductInfo/DD-05-013-21007.aspx - $70
MOE mid-length handguard - http://store.magpul.com/product/MAG418/122 - $34

I already have a BUIS designed for use with an M4 that I’m sure will work just fine with the 16” barrel. I prefer ironsights anyway.
As for the buttstock, I was thinking of getting an M16 buttstock. One that came off of the original M16s (not the M16A1, but THE M16. You know, the one that didn’t work so well). After going through a Tactical shooting course, I found that stock to have the perfect pull for me. Which is great because I prefer fixed stocks to adjustable. But if I did go the adjustable route, I was impressed with the Magpul CTR mil spec adjustable stocks.
Anyway, only problem with that stock is that I cant seem to find where I could buy one.

Well, that is what I’ve been tossing around in my mind as far as my build. My goal is to build a reliable, accurate battle rifle on a budget (total cost is looking around $900-1000). One that I can shoot a CQB course with, as well as take to the range and get consistent tight groups at 300m. And have it for one of those just-in-case times at home.

Now, here’s the kicker. I’ve only chosen BCM, Spikes, and DD LPK after reading about how great they are on various internet forums and from various customer reviews. Now, call me crazy, but I’m always skeptical about things that are unanimously talked up as being God-teir. My uncle has been building quality AR rifles for over 30 years and has never even heard of BCM. Now granted they are a newer company, it makes me even more skeptical. The last time I bought a product from a relatively new company that was highly recommended and had a good price, I ended up having a pressure plate go out on a Stage III clutch after only 8000 miles.

So what I’m really looking for is any reason I SHOULDN’T go with BCM, Spikes, and DD. Any nay-sayers out there are welcome, and any links to forums or customer reviews saying nasty things about them are much appreciated.

TL;DR – I want to build an AR with a BCM upper, a Spikes stripped lower, and a Daniel Defense LPK. I would like to hear any reason why these are bad choices.

[caelumatra]

I don't get the correlation between the 14.5" not being accurate at 500 yards compared to a 16". Barrel length doesn't affect accuracy and there are plenty of people hitting targets (i.e. real life) at 500 yards with M4's.

I didn't know how to eloquently say that but that sounds good.

I qualled with my m4 before getting out of the Marine Corps and shot high expert with it. No problems whatsoever @ 500 yds.

[Steve99Slomaro]

As far as the barrel length, I'm not saying that it was incapable of hitting a target a 500. I was still able to get 7/10 in the black (normally 9/10 in the black with an A4). Barrel length may not have as large of impact on accuracy as ammunition does, but it is still a factor. I was fortunate enough to see a kill shot made with an A4 at 860m once. You'll never see a 14.5in barrel do that.
But I was more concerned with velocity and extending the effective fragmentation range to something better than 85m. Also, I live in Cali :(.

I forgot about the gunfighter charging handle, caelumatra. Thank you for reminding me. I had a charging handle in the corps that was similar to the gunfighter one, but I'm having trouble finding it as of now.

[Iraqgunz]

I know an SF team member who made a kill at 800M with an M4 using Black Hills Mk262 MOD1 and an Elcan scope and another at 600M.

Barrel length affects muzzle velocity. That's pretty much it.


As far as the barrel length, I'm not saying that it was incapable of hitting a target a 500. I was still able to get 7/10 in the black (normally 9/10 in the black with an A4). Barrel length may not have as large of impact on accuracy as ammunition does, but it is still a factor. I was fortunate enough to see a kill shot made with an A4 at 860m once. You'll never see a 14.5in barrel do that.
But I was more concerned with velocity and extending the effective fragmentation range to something better than 85m. Also, I live in Cali :(.

I forgot about the gunfighter charging handle, caelumatra. Thank you for reminding me. I had a charging handle in the corps that was similar to the gunfighter one, but I'm having trouble finding it as of now.

[Steve99Slomaro]

Yes, I know it affects velocity. That is why I'm getting a 16" barrel.

[Iraqgunz]

You lost me. But, it's your money and your weapon so go for it.


Yes, I know it affects velocity. That is why I'm getting a 16" barrel.

[Steve99Slomaro]

How did I lose you? A longer barrel will have a longer effective range. 5.56 gets it's great terminal ballistics from high velocity. If i'm not mistaken, I think that 62gr ball needs to be going at least 2700fps to ensure proper fragmentation.

[MistWolf]

I believe what Iraqguns is getting at is, in general, there isn't much velocity gain when going from a 14.5" barrel to a 16" barrel.

Accuracy at 500 meters is dependent on ammunition type. If using a bullet with a low BC (Ballistic Co-efficient) it loses velocity quickly and will be blown around more by the wind. Also, as a bullet slows down, it get buffeted by turbulence when it's velocity drops into the transonic range.

So, a bullet with a good BC fired from a 14.5" barrel will out-perform a bullet with a poor BC fired from a 16" barrel. Usually, the 55 gr bullets have poor BCs and I'm not sure the 62 gr bullets are much better.

An AR-or other rifle type-with a 14.5" barrel will make hits out to a surprising distance if the shooter does his part

[Iraqgunz]

In your first post you stated that you wanted a 16" because the accuracy of a 14.5" wasn't there.

I stated that accuracy and length are not mutually exclusive and a 14.5" can be every bit as accurate.

You then stated you knew that, but added it is a factor. It's only a factor in as much as it pertains to the overall effectiveness of the round. Which is much different than accuracy.

There are better ammo choices out there than just 55gr. and 62gr. I am fairly certain that the Mv differences between a 14.5 and 16" aren't that much. If you use a good round for punching people then it won't be a factor.

Now that I know you are in the PRK a 14.5" is a moot point. Unless you want to do the permed flash hider thing which I don't recommend.


How did I lose you? A longer barrel will have a longer effective range. 5.56 gets it's great terminal ballistics from high velocity. If i'm not mistaken, I think that 62gr ball needs to be going at least 2700fps to ensure proper fragmentation.

[LONGBOWAH]

I'd add a gunfighter charging handle mod 4. They are FANTASTIC

If OP is trying to save some $, the stock charging handle is "free" when a bolt is ordered with the BCM upper...and you save $10 on the bolt, as well.

[LONGBOWAH]

For $100 more than the lower/LPK combo you sited which doesn't include the receiver ext., buffer, stock, etc., you can get a complete BCM blem lower...then you'd have a complete BCM rifle.

Just a thought.

[rob_s]

IG is exactly right, barrel length does not affect accuracy when accuracy is defined as group size. Wes Grant of MSTN has posted some groups that he has shot with very short barrels that make this crystal clear.

What longer barrels do is get you greater velocity, which in turn gets you a flatter trajectory overall, which in turn gives you less deviation from one range to another. Which is why, I think, people mistakenly think barrel length equals accuracy.

[caelumatra]

I forgot about the gunfighter charging handle, caelumatra. Thank you for reminding me. I had a charging handle in the corps that was similar to the gunfighter one, but I'm having trouble finding it as of now.

This is the one I had when I was in and I'm sure its the same you did.
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=pri+gas+buster&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=9551338848172302475&ei=qUbdTP2QCYa8lQeVws3VDQ&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBMQ8wIwAA#

And IMO its not anywhere near as good a charging handle as the Gunfighter. That thing is just great feeling. And the gunfighter is half as expensive and yet so much better

[caelumatra]

If OP is trying to save some $, the stock charging handle is "free" when a bolt is ordered with the BCM upper...and you save $10 on the bolt, as well.

I agree, but it wouldn't hurt anything to have an extra standard charging handle. Especially if its $10 cheaper.

[Steve99Slomaro]

In your first post you stated that you wanted a 16" because the accuracy of a 14.5" wasn't there.

I stated that accuracy and length are not mutually exclusive and a 14.5" can be every bit as accurate.

You then stated you knew that, but added it is a factor. It's only a factor in as much as it pertains to the overall effectiveness of the round. Which is much different than accuracy.

There are better ammo choices out there than just 55gr. and 62gr. I am fairly certain that the Mv differences between a 14.5 and 16" aren't that much. If you use a good round for punching people then it won't be a factor.

Now that I know you are in the PRK a 14.5" is a moot point. Unless you want to do the permed flash hider thing which I don't recommend.

Point taken. Although I'm pretty sure the seemingly reduced accuracy I had at the rifle range was probably from the lower velocity while being shot at Twentynine Palm's retarded windy range.
But living in Cali was another factor, and I dont want to have a permanent flash hider.


This is the one I had when I was in and I'm sure its the same you did.
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=pri+gas+buster&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=9551338848172302475&ei=qUbdTP2QCYa8lQeVws3VDQ&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBMQ8wIwAA#

And IMO its not anywhere near as good a charging handle as the Gunfighter. That thing is just great feeling. And the gunfighter is half as expensive and yet so much better

Yep, that's the charging handle I had.

[fivefivesix]

id recomend daniel defense lower or the bcm. for you id go bcm to have a matching gun. as far as bcm you cant google ar with out getting a hit from bcm. i bet there rifles are every bit as good as say a colt

[DTHN2LGS]

I recently got a "Blemished" BCM Lower from G&R Tactical and I had to show a friend of mine where the blemish was because he couldn't find it. It took me several minutes to find it myself. I would recommend this lower and a 16" BCM Middy.

My first carbine is a 16" BCM Middy on a RRA lower. I went with 16" so I would not have to have a permanently attached muzzle device like with the 14.5" guns (non-SBR). I then just screwed on a PWS FSC556. I want to try the Battle Comp on my next build.

I like to have options open to me.

[TehLlama]

I recently got a "Blemished" BCM Lower from G&R Tactical and I had to show a friend of mine where the blemish was because he couldn't find it. It took me several minutes to find it myself. I would recommend this lower and a 16" BCM Middy.

I really like my BCM Blem lower too.

If I were buying one now, I would very seriously look at the BCM Blemished lower, and then for the upper: if you want simple, get the Spike's LE M4, or if you want railed, get the smartgunner DD with a Lite rail. Top it off with a Gunfighter charging handle and you're set.