View Full Version : S&W M&P15 MOE
I'm brand new to ARs and have been doing a great deal of research.
I'm looking for a quality AR, but also one that's relatively inexpensive. It's looking like S&W fills that bill pretty well, especially the MOE model.
I'm open to any and all suggestions, S&W related or others.
Also, specifically regarding the S&W M&P15 MOE is there anything I need to know about this AR that might not be completely obvious to a newb.
One item might be the front sight.
1. If I want the front sight out of the eventual red dot "picture" I need to replace it with a flip up, correct?
2. It appears I'd need to buy some kind of a mounting rail just for the front sight. Is that correct?
I have looked at the M4chart and read a bunch of FAQs, etc. so pretty much any info aside from those would add to my knowledge.
Much thanks in advance!
ForTehNguyen
11-11-10, 15:32
you dont have to replace the front sight. With a reddot it will just be cowitnessed with the front sight. If you dont like it in the way you can either do a lower 1/3 cowitness where you put a riser under the red dot so the red dot will be above the front sight. Or you get a freefloat rail system with a flip front sight
glockkid88
11-11-10, 16:38
I recently purchased my first ar and one of the rifles I looked at was a M&P15MOE. In my area It cost around $1050 and then the salesman (a friend of mine) told me to look at the Daniel Defense m4. It cost $1250 and is a better base rifle, and comes with a lot of good accessories including the 12 inch rail. I am sure that the DDM4 is one of the most economical ar platforms on the market. Also you can get one with out the front sight post and a full length rail to mount buis on.
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There are a couple of version of the M&P 15 MOE:
- One online at S&W has a FSB and Folding MBUS.
- One from Cabelas does not have any sights and the Gas Block is the same height as the receiver.
The M&P 15's are good guns BUT...if you can save a little more, a BCM or a DD offer a lot for the money.
Don't be afraid to get a gun "mail order". Just go talk to a few local dealers and see what they'll charge to receive your gun for you. I wouldn't pay over $30. The Company you buy from will give you the specifics.
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OP, check your Private Messages.
Thanks for all the replies.
A local dealer has the same MOE as on the Smith site for $900. Looks like a lot of value for that price. Especially since I can see myself swapping out for FDE parts if I bought black anyway.
I should have also stated that this is not a defense gun. It will only be used at the range and for 3-gun games. I won't shoot it tons.
If I didn't like the cowitness could I add a small mounting to the front or would I have to lose the MOE handguard and get a railed hand guard?
MistoGators
11-11-10, 22:38
S&W makes a good AR. You can get a BCM or Spike's for around the same price though.
gr7070, I have an M&P15T. By the sounds of it, that model might suit you a bit better than the MOE, as it already comes with top quality folding back up irons...and its not that much more expensive. IMO, if you think the fixed front sight is going to bother you (and FWIW, it would bother me with the low power scope I use), it'd be easier and cheaper to get the T model and then swap out the stock, trigger guard and grip for the items found on the MOE model, (which is pretty much what I did) than it would to replace the front sight block and buy a better/longer rail.
I am currently doing my best to totally wear out my M&P15.....but have not managed it yet. Its my one and only AR and I have gotten addicted to 3 gun....consequently, I have put about 15,000 rounds of all manner of supposedly cheap'n'nasty steel cased ammo (Wolf, Brown Bear, Hornady Training etc...can't remember the last time I put brass cased in it) through the pipe in that time....and the only problems I have ever had have been the odd round failing to go off (primer failures), and I once had a PMag split a lip which caused issues till I realized what was up. No failures have been attributed to the rifle - not bad, I'd say! That said, I am pretty fanatical regarding maintenance and cleaning (due to old army habits dying very hard)and do replace springs etc periodically, so that might add to why its been so reliable. I'm a big believer of using your stuff hard....but looking after it at the same time. It has also been and continues to be a very accurate rifle; certainly for my purposes. No seen a noticeable drop off in accuracy yet. One other thing, I have found the stock trigger to be very nice as far as stock triggers go...next to no creep, pretty nice break and the pull weight on mine is just a hair under 6lbs. I may have got lucky with that one, but have heard other favorable reports about the M&P triggers too.
If you do get one, I'd recommend replacing the buffer with a Spikes ST-T2 or other heavier buffer, and the standard spring for a Sprinco extra duty (or similar) - I have found that combo makes for a nicer shooting rifle. No issues at all with cycling or bolt hold with that particular combo...until I added a Troy ABR (subsequently removed - which I might comment on in another post).
All that said, however, as has been pointed out above, there are probably better rifles out there for the money (certainly nowadays....times have changed since I bought mine in times of Obama panic)....but the fact that it has not let me down once in all those rounds can't be sniffed at.
Just some food for thought for ya.
Some good info, thanks!
My local dealer has the MOE for $900 and the T for $1240. That seems like a big difference. Would it really cost $300+ to change out the front site?
What would I need to do to put on a front site, if I wanted to keep the MOE handguard? Can y'all provide suggested parts as well so I can look at the cost?
Thanks!
Also, does anyone know where I can find good prices for BCM online. I'm curious how close in price they are to teh $900 S&W.
i got my BCM upper at their website for 560 with charging handle and bcg. It can be shipped straight to your house.
Then i ordered a blemished BCM lower from grtactical.com along with a magpul rear mbus, handguard and pmag.
In total cost about 1000 dollars
Judging from user feedback and specs, S&W is turning out a pretty nice AR these days. And S&W warranty service is definitely top shelf, if you should need it.
But as is often suggested on this forum, the additional cost of going with a BCM or DD is hardly much more... especially when compared to the cost of the ammo you will (should be) shooting. On resale, if you ever decided to sell, the BCM or DD should be a quicker, easier, higher value sale to an informed AR buyer.
Two things to strongly consider: going lightweight and choosing a mid-length gas system as well... personally I see no point in buying a carbine gas system on a 14.5 or 16" barrel when there are such good middy setups available. I understand S&W has a middy now as well. Going lighter vs. heavier is something you will likely very much appreciate.
And I second what ucrt suggested... order the upper (BCM, perhaps) to be sent to you directly and get a separate lower (BCM, LMT, etc.) locally or sent to your FFL.
As for not using your rifle for defense, are you sure the day will not come when you might want to do just that?
I'm not opposed to one of the higher end ARs, but I am frugal and the extra $200 definitely matters to me.
Another thing I lime about S&W is the name. They're going to be around for another century and pretty much everything they produce is top notch. They will very likely always produce a great firearm, so they're reputation and therefore value should always be there. I don't sell guns, in general, so I'm not too worried about that. If I were to sell it'll be 20 years from now where S&W name should be strong as ever.
How long has BCM and DD been around? Have they always been top dogs or did they make ordinary stuff for awhile? How likely will they be here 20 years from now? Do they have a lifetime service policy like S&W? This info could help me buy a BCM or not.
Can someone provide info on what it would take to change the front sight and still keep the MOE hand guard if that's even possible.
tomalibrando
11-13-10, 07:38
DD and BCM are relative newcomers to the market. That said, they had the advantage of looking around and seeing what could be improved and moved on it. They also have great marketing, which got the word out. I like some of the Smith and Wesson products that are out there. The M and P series has been, overall, very good. I evaluate each system on its own merits, however, not how long the manufacturers been in business. S and W had the Sigma pistol. I'll offend some, but it was a terrible platform. How do I know, they showed up at the Police academy for firearms week and it was rare that one made it all the way through. When someones life depends on the system, there's a very high standard. A lot of companies have that lemon once in a while. That said, S and W customer service is top notch and their product quality is very good. The M and Ps AR platforms that we've had at USTC have run very well.
I'm not opposed to one of the higher end ARs, but I am frugal and the extra $200 definitely matters to me.
Another thing I lime about S&W is the name. They're going to be around for another century and pretty much everything they produce is top notch. They will very likely always produce a great firearm, so they're reputation and therefore value should always be there. I don't sell guns, in general, so I'm not too worried about that. If I were to sell it'll be 20 years from now where S&W name should be strong as ever.
How long has BCM and DD been around? Have they always been top dogs or did they make ordinary stuff for awhile? How likely will they be here 20 years from now? Do they have a lifetime service policy like S&W? This info could help me buy a BCM or not.
Can someone provide info on what it would take to change the front sight and still keep the MOE hand guard if that's even possible.
============================
GR,
Isn’t the word “frugal” Latin for “tight-wad”? ;)
Don't be infatuated with the S&W name (or any AR maker for that matter). I think everyone is just being polite. An S&W AR is an adequate “starter” gun but it is far from being one of the best. I wouldn’t worry about the S&W name bringing a “premium” in the future, I’d worry about having a rifle that will function reliably IF you ever had to depend on it and use it like it was designed to be used. Hopefully, that day will never come but ...
You may have seen this, but this LINK (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html) is to what is referred to as “The Chart (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html)”. It compares how close a gun is built to Mil-Spec. It is not someone's opinion, it is just a list of facts about different AR's. Read and study the top portion (Description) before you really look at the “spreadsheet” portion. If you read the Description and follow the links, then, you will see “why” a little more money buys you a lot more gun.
Take it easy.
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tomalibrando
11-13-10, 08:05
ucrt. very true. buy right , buy once.
I do appreciate The Chart. It's awesome. It's largely how I've come to focus on the S&W. It has the majority of the quality parts recommended, while also having a great price.
I'm asking additional questions about the S&W to see if it will meet my intended use as I see it now and in the future.
>>I’d worry about having a rifle that will function reliably IF you ever had to depend on it and use it like it was designed to be used<<
I have *zero* concern for this. None. It will stay locked away at all times I am not playing with it. I am not buying this for defense. I am not worried about society crumbling.
I definitely appreciate the advice to get quality. Unless it becomes apparent S&W is inadequate quality for my uses it looks like a good choice.
I do expect to change the front sight. Can someone provide information on what that would require?
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OK, now that my conscience is clear, :) to do what I think you want to do, (that is to not have a FS in the FOV,) I would:
Either get the M&P-15-OR (Optics Ready) from Grant @ G&R for $800 and then buy the MOE stuff, probably for less than a $100. Grant probably has all of the MOE stuff in stock.
OR
Call Cabelas and see about getting the M&P-15OR-MOE. It goes on sale regularly for $899-$949. You’d probably have to call the Gun Library at one of the stores to get it but I’m sure it can be done through a store and not Mail Order On-Line.
But first, I’d check with Grant. I see he has been getting some S&W’s in stock. Maybe he’s got some M&P15’s in? or he might have some other S&W options for you...?
But maybe it’s just me…
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My 1st AR was a MP 15 MOE, I haven't had any problems with it. After purchasing the rifle I added an aimpoint on a La rue mount and a viking tactics sling and have taken it several American Confederation of Tactical Shooters matches. I am glad I started this way, a very simple rifle let me figure out what I wanted out of my rifle. I have been happy with my choice, but there are other good choices out there also.
Thanks.
I'll check out G&R, the La Rue mount, and the rest of the above.
Any other comments would be appreciated.
^^^^^Same for me.
My M&P15 MOE is still my 1st and only rifle. I also added an Aimpoint with LaRue mount and Viking Tactics sling and light mount with a Surefire. I got a decent deal on it at the time. It's been through a couple classes and my department training course. It's functioned perfectly thus far and the Magpul components have worked well for me.
According to the chart, the main drawback to M&Ps are the barrels. For me, it was actually a selling point. My department issued 55 grain ammunition, and I picked the S&W because the 1/9 twist rate on their barrels is optimal for 55 grain. The M&P also fit other criteria I had to meet for my work gun. The only "fix" I made was adding a heavier buffer.
My next rifle will probably not have a S&W upper because I want to make something entirely different to fill a different role, not because of any quality issues.
What kind of mount did you use for the light? Is it attached to the MOE hand guard?
The 1:9 bbl doesn't bother me either. Most my shooting will be shorter and I'll preferably shoot whatever is cheap anyway. Extreme accuracy isn't a significant concern.
For your first AR, the M&P15 will serve you well, make sure you do lots of shooting with it stock before you add and change things around so you know what's really going on.
I am very happy with the M&P15 MOE as my practice/plinker/beater.
http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv254/AllPackedUp/Images/SW-MP15-MOE-a.jpg
ursus.peracto
11-13-10, 18:37
For your first AR, the M&P15 will serve you well, make sure you do lots of shooting with it stock before you add and change things around so you know what's really going on.
I am very happy with the M&P15 MOE as my practice/plinker/beater.
http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv254/AllPackedUp/Images/SW-MP15-MOE-a.jpg
Good call. Shoot it bone stock first, then make changes if they are needed. This forum is great if you are looking for advice with upgrades (recoil reduction, muzzle rise, etc...)
Agreed. I'll run atleast 500 rds through it before I do anything.
Can someone provide any information about how to change out the front site for a folding front sight while still keeping the MOE hand guard? Is it possible? Is it easy enough? Is it expensive? What components might I need?
Just clicked past 6000 rounds thru my ORC. Still printing same groups as new. Still havent had a malfuction. Oh, with an EoTech. No, there have been no malfuctions. 385 on a 400 point Aggragate today. I ran it thru a TigerSwan course. And would bet my and my families life on it. and I have.
The Chart is for reference. Rob S made it to point people in the right direction. Yes, I would love to have a Noveske. I personally would rather see someone with a Del-ton and a Carbine Course certificate than a Non Shooting Schmuck with a Sub MOA gun.
Its like a 16 year old with a Corvette. A waste.
There's a lot of tacti-cool snobs on here who will only reccomend BCM and DD because they are a cool name and the hot names right now. That's not saying they aren't a great product, I'm sure they are. But S&W is a great gun. My first AR was a S&W MOE and it's a great gun. I ran it through a Pat Rogers class with zero failures or problems and Pat himself gave S&W a glowing review as a well built product. He's seen a lot of guns through his classes and seen a lot work and a lot fail. For him to be a fan of the S&W says something for it's reliability.
As far as changing out the front site, it's just a matter of replacing the gas block. Any competent gunsmith can do that in a snap. You can keep the handguards and everything else as is. You can get gas blocks in every shape and size including ones with a rail on them for mounting a backup front site if you choose.
I've added an Aimpoint, flashlight, and a quad rail forend to mine. It's still a great gun and runs like a dream. I haven't shot nearly as many rounds through mine as some people (it's dedicated to patrol use) but have never had a malfunction.
What kind of mount did you use for the light? Is it attached to the MOE hand guard?
The 1:9 bbl doesn't bother me either. Most my shooting will be shorter and I'll preferably shoot whatever is cheap anyway. Extreme accuracy isn't a significant concern.
This guy:
http://www.vikingtactics.com/pop-lmc_G2L.html
The Viking Tactics light mount mounted on top of the MOE hand guard with the light at the 10 o'clock position. It has worked well. The tip of the light lines up almost exactly with the front edge of the FSB, so I don't even see any shadow when it's on.
I bought my M&P 15X a couple years ago & have yet to have a failure with any of my reloads or factory ammo. With my LE discount, it was less than $800. I added an Aimpoint M3/ LaRue QD mount combo, that gives 1/3 co-witness, which I prefer. The only other accessories are a Vickers Tactical sling, light mount for a Shurefire & MagPul rail covers.
Get what you want, but for the price they're asking for S&W's now, I'd add a couple hundred more & get a DD, BCM, or Colt. Your choice.
Is it relatively easy to replace the gas block with a railed gas block? Doesn't even need to be easy as long as their are some instrcutions.
Or would I really need to use a smith?
Anyone have any recommended brands? Any suggestions, things to look for, stay away from?
Again, it is highly recommended that you shoot an AR stock especially with the FSB and learn it before you change things up. But since you persistently ask, here's a link that'll help
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=11616/learn/
Again,
Agreed. I'll run atleast 500 rds through it before I do anything.
I will run rounds through it at the range and will run multiple 3-gun and carbine matches.
I ask because it may affect what I purchase. Knowledge is power. I want to make sure I don't buy a gun that will cost me a ton extra to modify it into a common configuration that I could have all ready bought it more easily configurable and saved a lot of money.
I will be making an informed purchase as opposed to running out and buying something and hoping it'll do what I may want it to.
Knowing how and with what to replace something doesn't mean I'll do it.
Thank you for the info!
That Brownell's video is great! Much thanks.
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