View Full Version : Low Ready vs the high compressed ready?
Just wanted to throw this out and see what people are doing and why.
To be clear, I often/usually come back to a high compressed ready (#3 in my drawstroke) position after I fire at extension as I scan and access or prepare for another (possible) target(s).
Got reprimanded recently for not going to a Low Ready after shooting at on a simulator. No good reason was offered. Later a more seasoned trainer said that while it's "good for competition", you are violating Rule #2 when out on the square range.
I'm asking as my training is geared towards either on-duty, SWAT, and/or possible off-duty encounters.
I won't muddy things up with my other thoughts yet. Looking for others insight into the two positions and their own experience.
Thanks,
Drew
Your ready position will be situation dependent.
An instructor who get's wrapped up in your ready position is probably just a parrot, not a teacher.
If your finger is off the trigger, your muzzle is in a safe direction, you have control of your weapon and good situational awareness... your ready position is fine.
There are FAR more important things to correct on 99% of the shooters out there than their ready position.
Got reprimanded recently for not going to a Low Ready after shooting at on a simulator. No good reason was offered. Later a more seasoned trainer said that while it's "good for competition", you are violating Rule #2 when out on the square range.
One reason may be that it's not a bad habbit to follow a target down to the ground...as in you shoot them till they drop, then follow them down to the ground, ready to take another shot if necessary.
It's not to say that Low Ready is the ticket, just that some people need to get shot even after they've dropped to the ground.
If they didn't explain this though, this may not be why they got all bent out of shape.
Jay Cunningham
11-12-10, 08:50
The appropriate ready positions are also distance-dependent. The farther away the target, the more appropriate low ready is. At a certain distance (closer in) low ready becomes a liability and the compressed high ready makes much more sense.
If I understand your post correctly the instructor's thought was that the compressed high ready had you muzzleing targets/people that hadn't earned it yet and was a violation of the safety rules? If so I don't really see how a low ready, weapon depressed at a shallow angle, still pointing in same direction is significantly better. Personally I don't see a task for the low ready that the compressed high ready can't do better. Not saying it is wrong per say, I just don't see a benefit to it.
What about position Sul instead of compressed-ready as a safety alternative in team operations?
Your ready position will be situation dependent.
An instructor who get's wrapped up in your ready position is probably just a parrot, not a teacher.
If your finger is off the trigger, your muzzle is in a safe direction, you have control of your weapon and good situational awareness... your ready position is fine.
There are FAR more important things to correct on 99% of the shooters out there than their ready position.
+1
My thoughts exactly...as an LE, and private, firearms instructor.
Definitely position sul is valid if in team environment or crowd...I am an instructor at my agency as well and while I agree there are many more significant problems with cops shooting I also find that eliminating low ready is just one less thing to teach the LCD's and the compressed high ready is part of the draw anyway. Also, under stress their low ready migrates to a high ready or "aimed in" and they can't recognize threats because the gun is in their face.
NCPatrolAR
11-12-10, 17:29
From a LE perspective; low ready is highly useful when searching for people and during entries. Keeping the gun high (IME) tends to cause people to miss low threats and presents weapon retention issues.
NCPatrolAR, are we talking arms extended, muzzle depressed below the threat low ready?
NCPatrolAR
11-12-10, 20:07
NCPatrolAR, are we talking arms extended, muzzle depressed below the threat low ready?
Arms extended (if working with the pistol), muzzle depressed below line of sight
Just wanted to throw this out and see what people are doing and why.
To be clear, I often/usually come back to a high compressed ready (#3 in my drawstroke) position after I fire at extension as I scan and access or prepare for another (possible) target(s).
Got reprimanded recently for not going to a Low Ready after shooting at on a simulator. No good reason was offered. Later a more seasoned trainer said that while it's "good for competition", you are violating Rule #2 when out on the square range.
I'm asking as my training is geared towards either on-duty, SWAT, and/or possible off-duty encounters.
I won't muddy things up with my other thoughts yet. Looking for others insight into the two positions and their own experience.
Thanks,
Drew
As my favorite instructor tells me, rule number two can be violated if your finger is straight.
C4
What about position Sul instead of compressed-ready as a safety alternative in team operations?
Works well in many circumstances.
C4
Ok, I just wanted to be sure I was tracking. With all due respect, and I know I am a nobody around here, but my experience leads me to disagree with it's (low ready) usefulness. I would tend to agree with what Jay said about low ready being more acceptable at longer distances. I also think that the reason it is more acceptable is because at longer range your necessary engagement time (due to increased shot difficulty) is such that the initial position is relatively unimportant.
In our training I see it causing major issues with telegraphing an officers approach to doorways, corners, etc during searching and leading to major retention issues. Further, I have seen officers pervert the position and it moves into line of sight leading to slower engagement times due to slower recognition times.
Also, unless it is seriously depressed below line of sight I have seen it cause missing low threats much more often than a compressed high ready where the shooter is aggressively over the gun.
For team based entries, and I know the state loves the position, I feel it causes major muzzling issues and an unacceptable gap between officers as they clear the threshold. We run compressed high ready in point and variations of sul or a retention position behind it, situationally dependent.
Again, just my opinion...
NCPatrolAR
11-12-10, 21:53
Ok, I just wanted to be sure I was tracking. With all due respect, and I know I am a nobody around here, but my experience leads me to disagree with it's (low ready) usefulness. I would tend to agree with what Jay said about low ready being more acceptable at longer distances. I also think that the reason it is more acceptable is because at longer range your necessary engagement time (due to increased shot difficulty) is such that the initial position is relatively unimportant.
We are all going to have different takes on what is/isnt useful based on our differing training and expereince. I didnt use low ready as much as I do know until I di some training with Scott Reitz and continually missed low threats on entries due to my arms and gun blocking my field of view. After that (and watching police recruits constantly miss low line subjects), I saw the usefulness of it and make use of it quite often on searches. In fact, I used in a great deal theother night when we were searching an occupied school for 2 subjects armed with shotguns. For that event, I used a mixture of high ready, low ready, and Sul based on what I was doing.
In our training I see it causing major issues with telegraphing an officers approach to doorways, corners, etc during searching and leading to major retention issues.
Sounds like the officers need to be better versed in multipe positions and have the ability to switch between them as needed. In my book; low ready doesnt mean arms are locked out at full extension and the gun is depressed extremely low. For me; it means the muzzle is oriented down and the gun is down out ofthe line of sight. So if you have guys running around with the guns pushed way down and their arms are locked out, then I could certainly see problems with what the officers are doing.
Also, unless it is seriously depressed below line of sight I have seen it cause missing low threats much more often than a compressed high ready where the shooter is aggressively over the gun.
So the gun in your compressed ready is pulled in pretty close to your chest? Do you keep the muzzle oriented up?
For team based entries, and I know the state loves the position, I feel it causes major muzzling issues and an unacceptable gap between officers as they clear the threshold. We run compressed high ready in point and variations of sul or a retention position behind it, situationally dependent.
We use various positions for team work also. If you arent point and there isnt a threat area to cover; you are at Sul.
To me, compressed high ready is essentially the #3 position of the draw. Pull straight back from extension until you reach the point just before where the wrists start to break and open the hands. The muzzle is oriented in the direction the shooter is facing and the bore is essentially parallel to the ground. This brings it pretty close to the chest and when in an aggressive stance starts to bring your head over the gun. It is sort of a muzzle forward Sul. To me, I can see low level threats with it easier than I can with the low ready because the gun is in so much tighter (unless I do a really exaggerated muzzle at my feet low ready). In the compressed high ready I was taught, the gun is down below your line of sight as well, but your arms are not blocking 2 feet of vision towards your feet (as the extended arms in the low ready position do) and it is impossible to stay in the sights if you are doing the position right.
Question for you, have you seen any issues with students dipping their heads when in the low ready, trying stay in the sights and then trying to use the upper peripheral vision to navigate, etc?
I definitely agree that officers need to be versed in multiple positions/techniques and learn the use of them. I guess what I can't see is any benefit for the low ready that the compressed high ready doesn't do as well or better. Now granted, this is all based on pistols. Low ready with a carbine is a completely different story.
anatolian B
11-12-10, 23:17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hmac
What about position Sul instead of compressed-ready as a safety alternative in team operations?
Works well in many circumstances.
C4
I find SUL to be one of the most versatile "ready" positions. It has become my default when I don't know distance to adversary or floor plan.
NCPatrolAR
11-12-10, 23:29
Question for you, have you seen any issues with students dipping their heads when in the low ready, trying stay in the sights and then trying to use the upper peripheral vision to navigate, etc?
Cant say that I've ever seen that
Low ready, sucks as a fighting position, fair retention position, might be better at picking up low targets but that could come at the expense of missing high targets. Under stress it tends to creep into an aimed in position. People tend to drop their head/eyes when their hands/gun drop. Is fairly low profile.
High ready (Sabrina), blocks some peripheral vision on the gun side, good striking position, can allow your opponent to get "under the gun", promotes "heads up" situational awareness. Appears to be a aggressive position.
Compressed retention, good for striking, retention and shooting, very prone to muzzling issues. Fairly low profile.
Sul, Works well in a crowd of friendlies but the gun can be trapped against you easily. Poor striking position. The cocked wrist is easy to exploit on a takeaway. Very low profile.
Strong 90, Good striking position, good retention, fast on target, partially obstructs your vision, can have some muzzling issues. Extremely aggressive, intimidating position.
There is no perfect retention position.
It is all situational dependent and your ready position should NOT be static.
Example:
I draw and shoot someone to the ground.
I follow them to the ground with my sights and pause in low ready to verify they are down.
Now I need to check my 360.
I switch to a one handed "Sabrina" and rotate to my left, letting my free arm sweep ahead of my turn.
I see an unknown person rushing towards me.
I transition to a strong 90 and challenge them.
After verifying my 360 is secure I re-assess the downed BG from compressed retention.
I top off my gun from a high position in front of my face.
Go to a one handed compressed retention so I can call 911 with my free hand.
Now, not wanting to re-holster nor wanting to stand around with a gun waving in the air, if I can put my back to a wall I might switch to "covert ready" (gun in hand, slightly behind the thigh) or maybe to Sul if I'm just going to be standing around.
Can you describe strong 90 I am unfamiliar with the term? Also, just so there is no confusion in what I am advocating, i was taught high ready = compressed high ready and I am not speaking of Sabrina. Looking back at a previous post there may have been some confusion...
Strong 90:
Basically assume an isosceles shooting position.
Now bend you elbows up about 45 degrees (almost like the pistol is in heavy recoil).
Hold that position and bring your elbows back to your rib cage.
The pistol should be about in front of your face aimed up at about a 45 degree angle.
You should be looking over the front sight which is about 1' away from your nose.
Can anyone point the way or provide some photos of the positions under discussion?
Thanks
From reading the thread there does seem to be confusion amongst posters with the nomenclature and exactly how the technique(s) is/are performed. I think there are similarities in what different posters are talking about, but their definitions of the technique are a bit different.
I will say that I think shooters should be able to quickly and effortlessly adapt stances, ready positions, etc as the situation dictates. Again situation will dictate, however my preferred ready position is to be in what I call an "Intermediate" or sometimes considered by some to be a "Compressed" ready position. I call it an "Intermediate Ready" because of the confusion which is often associated with "high ready", "SUL", "saftey circle", "low ready" etc... People also have different definitions of what the former actually mean as can be seen in this thread.
My "Intermediate Ready" is an aggressive fighting posture. Might be considered a cross between a "gaming" style high muzzle forward posture when moving and a "Compressed Ready", or even a SUL. Again I call it an "Intermediate" ready to lessen the confusion in nomenclature or what the position may actually be called. Some might say that it may add another phrase to the already large bucket, or that it already has a name, but in teaching this technique I feel it has its own unique totality of the position that I call it an "Intermediate Ready". I am mostly concerned with my target group and that all of us are on the same page when interacting with one another. Prior to coming under my instruction they have already had several other instructors and have generally learned variations of different techniques. Indeed when I say high ready or any other position, you will get different guys doing different variations. Therefore I call it an "Intermediate Ready" which is definitely unique from the formal training that they have already been through. This cuts out any confusion amongst these students as to what position I am talking about after I have taught it.
To explain my stance or preferred ready position, I will say that I am a correct, err right hander. My "Intermediate Ready" is maintaining a normal two handed shooting grip on the weapon. From a high draw, the number 3 position where the hands meet and establish a good two handed grip, I maintain my good 2 handed shooting grip and I bring the weapon in to my chest about nipple line height where I rotate my hands, in my shooting grip, counter clockwise to about the 10 o'clock position and I depress the muzzle downwards. You must stay compact as the tendency to want to chicken wing the primary elbow is high as the support elbow lies against the side of the body. Correct and consistent training is the key to avoid this. The angle at which I depress the muzzle down is situation dependent. It can vary from about 1 yard in front of my feet to whatever distance I chose.
This might sound like "SUL" or "Safety Circle" to some, but it is not a classic muzzle straight down and I do not use this "Intermediate Ready" position in a stack. As for "SUL", if / when I do use a "SUL" I have the standard downward muzzle but I will release the two handed grip placing my support thumb on my sternum pointing toward my chin, with a flat open hand slightly angled to just clear my feet. My support hands index finger will remain in its normal shooting grip position, stacked on the primary hand and high under the trigger guard. The weapon lays flat against the back of my support hand. If or when necessary I can easily "roll" right into my normal shooting grip as I present the weapon or orientate the muzzle forward to the target.
This Intermediate ready has;
- Low likely hood of telegraphing.
- Excellent field of view, left, right, up and down.
- Excellent weapon retention properties from keeping the elbows in a bent position which helps retention power and keeps the weapon near the body or our axis.
- Places the the support hand in a "cocked" position in the upper torso area near the head. Almost the same position for an empty handed defensive posture. We can quickly snap the support hand up to protect the head, similar to a boxer or MMA defense where the chin tucks and the support hand goes to the temple or ear area, elbow points forward to fend off a blow. Our weapon is already in a good tuck or retention spot which can be slightly altered if necessary for weapon defense or a tucked shooting position. This also allows for a quick offensive or defensive support hand strikes.
- Low chance of muzzling when trained and executed correct (muzzle not pointing forward).
- Quick target acquisition with high accuracy achieved by keeping the weapon high in line with my eyes so that I can punch the weapon straight out and pick up sights quickly, or like with a good "high draw" I am inline and can break shots from any position, before or up to lock out.
- Might have to consider weapon trapped to body, but when trained in conjunction with good open handed type of defenses, this is greatly lessened. I really do not consider it a drawback as it places me in a good "open handed" type of defensive posture that allows my support hand to be better utilized when needed.
Again I will say that I do use and teach other positions. Just like teaching kids T-ball or any sport. We train the basic skills and the player adapts them into their unique style honing the fundamentals. We need to be able to be thinkers and be adaptive in what we do to fit the situation that we are faced with and we need to be able to do it virtually without thinking.
Can anyone point the way or provide some photos of the positions under discussion?
Thanks
Here are some pics of the "Strong 90".
http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww204/synergy303/ftt%20personal/strong90-4.jpg
http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww204/synergy303/ftt%20personal/strong90-2.jpg
http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww204/synergy303/ftt%20personal/strong90-3.jpg
Here is a more typical "high compressed ready":
http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab98/firearmstrainingandtactics/Training%20anouncement%20pics/PaulHowe.jpg
Here is Sul:
http://www.officer.com/article/photos/1179896852142_web-009-2.jpg
My "default" ready position would probably be a high ready (Sabrina).
Mainly because it works well with a handgun and a carbine under most conditions.
The gun is up in my workspace if I need to do any manipulations, it's not a tiring position, it promotes heads up situational awareness, you can fight from it fairly well, retention is good and it's quick to get back on target.
NCPatrolAR
11-13-10, 16:22
My "default" ready position would probably be a high ready (Sabrina).
Its always been my understanding that "Sabrina" is muzzle straight up. Is that what you are doing or is it an actual high ready (muzzle up at approx 45 degrees)?
Its always been my understanding that "Sabrina" is muzzle straight up. Is that what you are doing or is it an actual high ready (muzzle up at approx 45 degrees)?
Muzzle straight up.
My strong arm is tight to the right side of my body, forearm is touching my bicep.
Muzzle straight up, gun is about 6" to the right of my cheek.
Weak arm is across my chest and I maintain my firing grip with both hands.
When I do it with a carbine I grip the front of the magwell with my weak hand.
Here's a pic of me doing a kneeling "Sabrina" with a carbine.
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/JodyHuggins/ready.jpg
NCPatrolAR
11-13-10, 16:35
Muzzle straight up.
My strong arm is tight to the right side of my body, forearm is touching my bicep.
Muzzle straight up, gun is about 6" to the right of my cheek.
Weak arm is across my chest and I maintain my firing grip with both hands.
When I do it with a carbine I grip the front of the magwell with my weak hand.
Thanks. I view the two (Sabrina and High Ready) as very different things hence the reason I asked.
Thanks. I view the two (Sabrina and High Ready) as very different things hence the reason I asked.
I wouldn't consider them "very different".
Sabrina, high ready, compressed retention and strong 90 are all very close to the same thing and each can morph into the other with +-15 degrees of angle or a slight arm movement.
That's one reason I don't get all wrapped up in ready positions.
Muzzle awareness, situational awareness, control of the weapon... you're GTG .
NCPatrolAR
11-13-10, 17:21
I wouldn't consider them "very different".
Sabrina, high ready, compressed retention and strong 90 are all very close to the same thing and each can morph into the other with +-15 degrees of angle or a slight arm movement.
That's one reason I don't get all wrapped up in ready positions.
Muzzle awareness, situational awareness, control of the weapon... you're GTG .
I agree with the not getting wrapped up in ready positions thing. Thats why I typically work in some variation of high ready, low ready, and Sul. When it comes to the muzzle up position; I havent seen a need for it and view it as coming with more negatives than positives.
And before anyone says anything;I know that people view it (muzzle up) as being needed when working on ships and horseback (the two most common reasons I see cited).
I agree with the not getting wrapped up in ready positions thing. Thats why I typically work in some variation of high ready, low ready, and Sul. When it comes to the muzzle up position; I havent seen a need for it and view it as coming with more negatives than positives.
A lot of it depends on your physical size, what your preferred retention and striking methods are, whether you have partners, how you run your gun and your ROE.
While my preferred aggressive ready position is "Sabrina", my most often used ready position would probably be "covert ready" because I use it when answering the door for strangers or investigating what the dog's barking at.
My take on the compressed high ready is slightly different than apparently everyones, lol...I do not bring the front sight up to eye level and the bore is parallel to the ground. My goal is to be able to engage from the position with no adjustment if the threat is close enough. Picture a sul with both hands in a firing grasp and the muzzle straight towards target. I am over the gun so I can see the front sight in my lower peripheral but the gun but of the gun is near my nipple line.
NCPatrolAR, I can see your low level threat concerns with the compressed high ready pictured. What is the reasoning behind the elevated muzzle in high ready? Guess I am really more of the intermediate ready that Surf described except my muzzle is straight forward...
What is the reasoning behind the elevated muzzle in high ready?
If your muzzle is parallel to the ground it greatly limits your ability to move and scan without muzzle sweeping other people.
Muzzle up or down allows you to scan and move without sweeping people who don't need a gun pointed at them.
The farther up or down you're muzzle is, the more freedom of movement you have.
NCPatrolAR
11-13-10, 19:43
Muzzle up often permits shooters to have the front sight either in their direct line of sight or peripheral vision. It's much like the Satterwhite ready that used to be in favor with shotgunners.
I can see the parallels to the Satterwhite ready, guess I was expecting something else. I also understand shooting slightly out of the notch, etc but not to that level. My question then would be why not incorporate the wheelie into the draw if it is an advantage? Please understand, my intention is not to be argumentative but to understand why...
As far as sweeping non threats maybe I am wrong but I don't see that level of muzzle elevation being significantly safer. I can still scan by moving my head, eyes etc while I am moving. In my skillset, once I identify a non threat in front of me that is where the migration towards Sul or a retention begins or I simply change my direction of travel to avoid a collision, thereby redirecting my muzzle. Sabrina is all yours unless it involves climbing a ladder or a whole lot of people on the floor waiting to be flexcuffed. If the non threat, etc is not in front of me my muzzle doesn't need to change.
What if you were on a rubber raft slung under a helicopter in a entry stack surrounded by rabid Mongols?
That's why I stated earlier, ready positions are dynamic.
One size doesn't fit all.
That's why focusing on a single ready position is pointless.
You can have a default position, but know that plan A never works so you better have plan B and C ready to roll.
Again... watch your muzzle, watch your surroundings, control your weapon, name it anything you feel like 'cause it's all good.
That's easy, the sobbing in the fetal unready position cause heights, sharks and angry hordes really scare me!
Dont forget, I agreed on multiple positions being necessary from the beginning. My contention was not that multiple ready positions are not necessary, just that I don't see the need for low ready to be one of them. Thanks for the discussion though guys, I feel I have learned from it.
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