View Full Version : Sincere Question: What is a shotgun good for? (besides birds)
I have a shotgun. It is a Remington 870 that was a vent rib and cut down before I got it. I added a Wilson Combat mag extension and a side saddle to it. The problem I have with it is in deployment. Primary HD is a Glock 19 with Surefire X300. Behind that is my AR. I can't find a reason to keep the shotgun. Can anyone tell me what it does that the AR does not.
I'm not looking to start a war, but am struggling with my own definition of purpose for this gun.
Thanks!
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a351/Bullseye_Doc_Holiday/trial001.jpg
Probably the more relevant question is: what do you want the SG to do?
fivefivesix
11-12-10, 15:05
hunting with it is great, squirell, rabbit, birds. definetly better in the woods against bear than an ar. and there is a metric ton of ammo to choose from. imo the 556 round is awesome for hd as a 55 grain projectile will penetrate one sheet of drywall before it fragments harmlessly. have u tried clay pigeon shooting. its a great time, you have a well rounded shotgun from my perspective. and the slugs. i have some 15 pellet buck shot from walmart that will rock your brain. boy id hate to be down range from them
My shotgun, in a perfect world and God willing the gun laws don't get crazy, will never replace my carbine as my go to HD gun. The shotgun is just so adaptable and that's what I love about one. How many other guns can kill squirrels AND bears? As of late my main use for a shotgun has been in 3 gun. To me there is nothing more enjoyable as running one as fast as you can. It is also the most difficult for me to master b/c of having to plan reloads much more often. The shotgun is a tool and there are some tools better suited for certain applications than others. YMMV,
-Jax
Probably the more relevant question is: what do you want the SG to do?
That's really the problem. I feel like the shotgun is a gun looking for a purpose. I have it because "everyone" says you need one.
My purposes for firearms:
Hunting big game (my .30-06 and .308 are better than a shotgun at this)
Hunting small game (My scoped .22 is more accurate and has better range than a shotgun)
I don't bird hunt, but if I did, I do have a 24" SxS .410 that I will never sell
Home defense (well established that a carbine is a better ballistic choice and more versatile in terms of the fight moving outside)
Target/Competition (I've never shot 3-gun, but I think I would like to. I guess I should keep the shotgun for that maybe, but wouldn't an auto work better if it's purely to play the game?)
You will have to find your own wants/needs/desires to work the SG.
For me, I love it. Why?:
1) It takes skill to operate with it efficiently.
2) Skill comes from time spent.
3) The effect of seeing a competent SG handler is stunning.
4) The ballistic effect of the SG is stunning.
5) It is versatile as hell.
6) It is fun as hell.
7) Once mastered, it is a very satisfying experience to operate with one.
Yes, I know all about the 'shortcomings' of the SG. Like the 1911, its obsolete and should be put into a museum if you listen to some of the 'gods' out there... ok, whatever.
Find your own peace with it. If you can't, they sell pretty quickly.
As for a recommendation - go autoloader, Benelli.
I like the shotgun for static defense.
I'd hole up in a room with the family and wait for the dirtbag(s) in question to come through the fatal funnel themselves. Pile their ass up in the doorway. If more are behind and leave then I pursue just far enough to ensure they left either the 2nd floor or the house completely.
No need to take the fight outside at that point. Keep the family secure and let someone else come to clean up that sh*t outside.
Some good discussion here if you have not already seen this thread
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=59141&highlight=role
I think shotguns have a whole pile of uses but it's more about what you want to do with it, like Jax said.
I initially bought a shotgun for home defense because it was the only gun I felt totally comfortable shooting. As I've become more proficient with automatic pistols and the AR-15, it has been pushed from that duty. I currently use it as an additional HD gun, stashed in a closet near the door. I think they are a good gun if you don't have a large budget and need something that will be an almost perfectly reliable defense gun, or if you need more guns than you have due to your situation with the same smaller budget.
I also have a Ruger over/under which I shoot sporting clays with at a couple local courses, and a Stevens 67 with a 27" barrel for small game around my house. They are exceptionally versatile guns! What's more, there are many shotguns designed to quickly swap barrels. Go from a rifled slug gun to hunt bear and deer to a smoothbore for clays to a long choked barrel for birds to a short barrel for home defense, all with a single gun. While there are guns that will do some of these things better for some people, none of them can do all of the above easily.
Really, if you can't find a use for a shotgun, what kind of shooter are you? :sarcastic:
"From a pure wound trauma standpoint on a shot against unarmored soft tissue, a close range hit from a 12 ga shotgun using buckshot will create more damage than any 5.56 mm projectile; it is for this reason that Dr. Fackler has expressed his preference for 12 ga buckshot over 5.56 mm for close range defensive use."
That, and combined with I have more trigger time behind a 870 than any other weapon is why I use a shotgun.
Multiple wound channels created by multiple projectiles (ie shot pellets) can effect more than one system and create more opportunities for bleeding and pure tissue destruction.
Essentially it can create a larger wound channel.
jklaughrey
11-12-10, 22:45
Every red blooded American that believes in the 2nd Amendment needs a shotgun. Plus if some of your non gun savvy friends give you shit I hear rock salt is quite painful.
anatolian B
11-12-10, 23:00
ASH556:
Of your purposes listed I can understand that a SG may have no immediate purpose. I belive that the SG is excecllent in the house, excellent in the field, and just plaine fun. The one you listed is well equiped and will serve you well. Throw it in the truck and know that if needed it does have a purpose, with practice it is an effictive tool out to 50 yards and packs a wallop.
From an LEO perspective:
I find myself deploying my shotgun much more than my AR. I keep my shotgun (14” 590) in my rack by choice. I keep the tube loaded with 00 buck. The AR is in the trunk.
I consider the shotgun an “oh shit!” weapon. The 14” shotgun in much quicker and easier to rapidly deploy from my vehicle than my AR. I keep the tube loaded with 00 buck. I can fire it through the windshield while seated if needed. (Yes, I can also fire my 6921 this way with the stock collapsed.)
I prefer the shotgun when going into homes under most circumstances. Obviously, I weigh each situation as it arises based on the information received, and then ultimately determine which platform to deploy.
Yesterday, I deployed a long gun twice. The first incident was the AR. Wanted, armed suspects fled in a vehicle, then on foot. They ran through a residential area, then into a graveyard. I established containment on the far end of the graveyard. Naturally, the AR was the obvious choice for this task.
Later in the evening, some POS’s were seen burglarizing a home and thought to still be inside. The shotty was put to use to clear and secure the home.
If I could only have one, I would take the AR in a heartbeat.
From a Home Defense perspective:
I just throw on my duty belt or grab a handgun. If I chose a long gun, for my home and living situation, it is a shotgun. Unless the Russians are invading, there really is nothing the shotgun with 00 buck can’t handle.
If I lived in a rural area and/or a bigger home, the AR would be the tool of choice.
This is not, and should not turn into a shotgun vs. AR debate. This is the way I see it. And, yes, I am in the minority with my thinking. I say…what ever makes you sleep better at night. I still have a lot of faith in the shotgun and 00 buck. I do not care for slugs. As a rule, if you anticipate needing slugs (for range), take an AR (unless it is a BEAR attack! :D). I do keep 4 slugs in the saddle for exigent circumstances.
What best suits me, may not be what best suits you or the next guy.
Your millage will vary.
let's see....
1. I don't like the idea of a manually operated fighting weapon.
2. I don't like the idea of a fighting weapon being tube fed.
3. shotgun shells are expensive to train with.
I think it adds a level of versatility to the arsenal. You can shoot birdshot (if needed) load it with 00 buck or slugs for defense and you can use it as a breacher in some cases.
Obviously these scenarios are all situationally dependent. I think having a good shotgun around is a good idea. At close range it is still devastatingly effective. But, they aren't for everyone.
I think it adds a level of versatility to the arsenal. You can shoot birdshot (if needed) load it with 00 buck or slugs for defense and you can use it as a breacher in some cases.
Obviously these scenarios are all situationally dependent. I think having a good shotgun around is a good idea. At close range it is still devastatingly effective. But, they aren't for everyone.
Plus there are many Less than lethal options available..as in Rubber Buckshot and Slugs. One can also obtain signaling rounds i.e...Flares, Bird Bombs, Frangible breaching rounds etc...
And while many will quickly discount the "Pucker Factor" arguement....if a bad guy finds himself staring down the wrong end of the old shotgun......I would venture to say that he or she would swear they could crawl into the end of that twelve gauge hole pointed at them.
A 12gg is great for HD. You have the ability to change ammo easy, mix ammo, and load less lethal rounds in front of lethal, and lets not forget the damage a 12gg does up close. Why would you chase a invader out of your home And I would think if your not a LEO and shoot someone outside shotgun range your going to get into some legal trouble.
That's really the problem. I feel like the shotgun is a gun looking for a purpose. I have it because "everyone" says you need one...
Terrible reason to own any firearm. I'd sell it. If it isn't around because you like it, you won't spend the time with it required to get good with it and that'll make it a self fulfilling prophecy. Personally I love mine and because of that, I've spent the time to get good with them. They are a wonderful weapon when used within their envelope.
From an LEO perspective:
I find myself deploying my shotgun much more than my AR. I keep my shotgun (14” 590) in my rack by choice. I keep the tube loaded with 00 buck. The AR is in the trunk.
I consider the shotgun an “oh shit!” weapon. The 14” shotgun in much quicker and easier to rapidly deploy from my vehicle than my AR. I keep the tube loaded with 00 buck. I can fire it through the windshield while seated if needed. (Yes, I can also fire my 6921 this way with the stock collapsed.)
I prefer the shotgun when going into homes under most circumstances. Obviously, I weigh each situation as it arises based on the information received, and then ultimately determine which platform to deploy.
Yesterday, I deployed a long gun twice. The first incident was the AR. Wanted, armed suspects fled in a vehicle, then on foot. They ran through a residential area, then into a graveyard. I established containment on the far end of the graveyard. Naturally, the AR was the obvious choice for this task.
Later in the evening, some POS’s were seen burglarizing a home and thought to still be inside. The shotty was put to use to clear and secure the home.
If I could only have one, I would take the AR in a heartbeat.
From a Home Defense perspective:
I just throw on my duty belt or grab a handgun. If I chose a long gun, for my home and living situation, it is a shotgun. Unless the Russians are invading, there really is nothing the shotgun with 00 buck can’t handle.
If I lived in a rural area and/or a bigger home, the AR would be the tool of choice.
This is not, and should not turn into a shotgun vs. AR debate. This is the way I see it. And, yes, I am in the minority with my thinking. I say…what ever makes you sleep better at night. I still have a lot of faith in the shotgun and 00 buck. I do not care for slugs. As a rule, if you anticipate needing slugs (for range), take an AR (unless it is a BEAR attack! :D). I do keep 4 slugs in the saddle for exigent circumstances.
What best suits me, may not be what best suits you or the next guy.
Your millage will vary.
Nice post, I agree completely! The shotgun has its niche and it's tremendous within that niche. The AR can handle more situations which might arise so if I were to only have one, it'd be the AR.
Im surprised no one mentioned this.
Shotguns are affordable. They're cheaper than a pistol, a third of the cost of a good quality AR and are loved by gun stores around the world because of this.
If someone has a very strict budget and its either no gun or a shotgun for home defense purposes they're going to at least be able to arm themselves in one way or another.
Personally, i would save and buy an AR15 as it find it easier to operate than a shotgun and requires way less training for your average joe in order to be able to operate effectively.
Shotguns ARE decent tools as they offer ALOT of versatility but the training requirements are alot steeper than say a pistol or rifle.
I like the shotgun because it's so versatile. You can hunt everything from birds, small game to large game. Buckshot and slugs are very effective for SD/HD. In a LE/military role it's also nice to have the ability to use less lethal ammo, rubber shot for example. They can be cheap (paid 200€ for my Mossberg 500) and pump-action shotguns are usually very reliable. Opposed to what a lot of people seem to think a shotgun does take a bit of training to use effectively IMO, but you should train a lot with any gun you're planning to use for defense anyway, so I don't see that as a problem.
Personally, i would save and buy an AR15 as it find it easier to operate than a shotgun and requires way less training for your average joe in order to be able to operate effectively.
Shotguns ARE decent tools as they offer ALOT of versatility but the training requirements are alot steeper than say a pistol or rifle.
Just curious why you say this? If you handed someone an AR or shotgun, it would take the same amount of time to be proficient. Or a pistol for that matter.
let's see....
1. I don't like the idea of a manually operated fighting weapon.
2. I don't like the idea of a fighting weapon being tube fed.
3. shotgun shells are expensive to train with.
1. They make Autoloading shotguns.
2. Saiga 12
3. A 100 shell box of promo birdshot costs about the same as 100 rounds of 9mm.
Just curious why you say this? If you handed someone an AR or shotgun, it would take the same amount of time to be proficient. Or a pistol for that matter.
An AR shares a similar manual of arms to a pistol, lots of gross motor skills, high ammunition capacity, very low recoil (on the rifle) and VERY easy to operate for a beginner.
Once you start talking about RUNNING these guns and keeping them topped off and in the fight things change but for a beginner, someone that is just picking the gun up, slamming a big ass box magazine filled with 28 rounds into a hole and slamming the side of the receiver to drop the bolt (during a reload) is a hell of a lot easier than asking them to stick individual rounds into their gun while their hands are slippery, shaking and their heart is beating out of their chest.
I really do believe running a gun well and shooting efficiently is an art no matter what gun you're rocking but fighting with a shotgun at maximum efficiency takes a heck of a lot more concentration, training, knowledge and dedication towards learning how the gun runs and how it can be used.
This video is obviously not the greatest source material but its a reasonable example of the point im trying to make.
http://www.youtube.com/user/adcosteve#p/u/41/1UauxacnFA4
1. They make Autoloading shotguns.
2. Saiga 12
3. A 100 shell box of promo birdshot costs about the same as 100 rounds of 9mm
The saiga 12 meets requirements but still isn't appealing.
Also how are birdshot and buckshot loads different from one another in terms of recoil, and other factor that may affect training? Are there also pressure differences that may affect the reliability of a semi auto shotgun?
Shotguns do take a little more time to get the basics honed I think.
-First of all what load? Buck (what size pellets?) or slugs and what are the the potential consequences of shooting multiple rounds with one press of the trigger if others are around. Also managing the extra recoil. An AR has much less recoil which make subsequent shots more manageable therefore this makes you more effective on the target.
-Reloads. Start to run dry in a shotgun and you've got to load rounds in ONE at a time under stress. Not to mention if you aren't trained up enough and you didn't do a tactical reload and therefore one must load a round into the chamber close the bolt AND then begin feeding the tube. In a AR drop the mag insert a new one and hit the bolt release. Much simpler in my mind. Not to mention 28 rounds versus +/- 7 in a shotgun. Yes round for round 12 gauge is more effective in close quarters but there is not a magic one stopper round out there. In lieu of that, I'll take the AR.
-Malfunctions? Failure to fire fixes would be pretty the same speed. Double feeds? Ever had a round not extract on a shotgun and pull a round from the tube onto the elevator? Or loaded a round that didn't fully seat in the mag tube while a round was in the chamber? That makes a nice little rats nest. Double feeds can be hard to fix under stress with an AR but IMO simpler to fix than compared with a shotgun.
-Pumps guns are great IF you can run one under stress. I remember several years back I was hunting deer with my 870 and was using slugs. The first shot hit her in the shoulder but she hobbled off. I pumped the gun for the follow up hoping to finally bring her down. Click......I short stroked the gun and that was under stress but that was not life or death type of stress. The myth of the almighty pump gun needs to be put into perspective. Training, training, training.
Thats a few things I can think of and I am not a SME by any measurement but I believe ARs are much more intuitive, far more ergonomic, and with the right parts, overall more reliable. I am not dissing the shotgun in anyway. Heck I've had guns come and go but I've always had a 12 gauge 870 for the better part of my life. Magsz is right, for someone on a budget and needs a 'do all' firearm a shotgun has no equal if you factor out CCW. The caveat is when something is a 'do all' it becomes jack of all trades and master of none. Like I mentioned this is not a diss on the shotgun. Heck the majority of my recent posts have been on shotties b/c I absolutely love shooting them and I am trying to elevate my skill. In my opinion though if I am under a life and death situation my weapon of choice (for reasons listed above and others) if I have time and opportunity will be my AR underneath my bed. My opinion so the grain of salt factor is applied.
-Jax
Just curious why you say this? If you handed someone an AR or shotgun, it would take the same amount of time to be proficient. Or a pistol for that matter.
arizona98tj
11-14-10, 21:48
The saiga 12 meets requirements but still isn't appealing.
Also how are birdshot and buckshot loads different from one another in terms of recoil, and other factor that may affect training? Are there also pressure differences that may affect the reliability of a semi auto shotgun?
I haven't noticed it very much....the velocity of the bird and buckshot I use are within 100 FPS of each other. The weight is close enough that I don't notice a difference. Having shot a couple thousand rounds of each through the same auto-loader for practice has me believing their isn't much difference. As for reliability, I find it no better nor no worse than any other long gun I have used. Without changing anything on my semi-auto shotgun, I can shoot bird, buck, and slugs. I don't see how it can get any easier than that.
As for a firearm not being appealing....well, there isn't much one can do about that. Have you ever ran a few magazines through a Saiga shotgun?
As for a firearm not being appealing....well, there isn't much one can do about that. Have you ever ran a few magazines through a Saiga shotgun?
Never fired any shotgun. What I meant to say is that even though the saiga 12 meets requirements, it still isn't conceptually appealing. Consider that fact that I already own semi auto rifles that can be used for defensive purposes with the correct ammunition.
An AR shares a similar manual of arms to a pistol, lots of gross motor skills, high ammunition capacity, very low recoil (on the rifle) and VERY easy to operate for a beginner.
Once you start talking about RUNNING these guns and keeping them topped off and in the fight things change but for a beginner, someone that is just picking the gun up, slamming a big ass box magazine filled with 28 rounds into a hole and slamming the side of the receiver to drop the bolt (during a reload) is a hell of a lot easier than asking them to stick individual rounds into their gun while their hands are slippery, shaking and their heart is beating out of their chest.
I really do believe running a gun well and shooting efficiently is an art no matter what gun you're rocking but fighting with a shotgun at maximum efficiency takes a heck of a lot more concentration, training, knowledge and dedication towards learning how the gun runs and how it can be used.
This video is obviously not the greatest source material but its a reasonable example of the point im trying to make.
http://www.youtube.com/user/adcosteve#p/u/41/1UauxacnFA4
Downside is an Aimpoint in a mount costs more than an Mossberg 590.
Personally I own an AR, rifles, handguns, etc. but I don't own a shotgun (my brother has two, so I figured if I ever needed to borrow one I would).
I think a rifle's better, but honestly, the cost of it is about 4 times that of the shotgun. The Base AR (quality AR) is I dunno $900-1100? (let's use what I have BCM Midlength), that's $1050 from BCM, $60~ for a rear Magpul MBUS, lets throw on an Aimpoint ML3 in a Larue mount, that's $540.
That's $1650, not counting transfer fees/shipping/tax, or a different pistol grip, butt stock, light, etc.
I could get a basic 590, rifle sights, 8-shot tube (ETA: Said 9-shot tube initially, meant 8 shot capacity) for $410 from Budsgunshop.com
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=50663&x=2&y=13
I hate to say it, but you're honestly looking at around 1/4th the price of an AR and 1/2 (depending on the pistol, if it's a glock, $100 or so less from most gun stores, M&P, depends on the model, configuration, etc) the price of a pistol.
No spare magazines need to be purchased either, etc.
I agree an Shotgun isn't ideal, but for people that need a weapon in their home, a shotgun will be more effective than a pistol any day of the week, IMHO, and can be had for much less. (ETA: Forgot to finish that sentence, it was late)
It also honestly, you can neglect that pump action shotgun, you don't need to buy quality magazines, it's not (ETA 2: Wow, I'm tired, I forgot the not) anywhere near as critical to clean/lubricate/maintain the gun (I mean that's the way with all manual firearms, bolt actions as well).
I'd take an AR over it, could get a cheaper AR, maybe RRA or Bushmaster, depending on the user, could get a C3 in a cheaper mount Aimpoint, but you're still going to be around $1200-1400 depending on the configuration.
By the way, I hate to say this as well, you can find buckshot or 00 buckshot or slugs at every walmart or gunstore. You're not going to find the best 5.56mm loadings for self-defense anywhere near that available.
BWT,
Scroll up and read my first post in this thread brother.
I touched on exactly what you're saying although the points that you put up are excellent as they delve further into the price divide.
If i was going to recommend anything for self defense to someone who i KNOW isnt going to train enough i would recommend a pistol so long as i know they're going to take the idea of owning a firearm seriously.
For everyone else i tell them to hire a bodyguard or get a can of Mace lest they kill themselves. :)
woodandsteel
11-15-10, 10:21
From an LEO perspective:
I find myself deploying my shotgun much more than my AR. I keep my shotgun (14” 590) in my rack by choice. I keep the tube loaded with 00 buck. The AR is in the trunk.
I consider the shotgun an “oh shit!” weapon. The 14” shotgun in much quicker and easier to rapidly deploy from my vehicle than my AR. I keep the tube loaded with 00 buck. I can fire it through the windshield while seated if needed. (Yes, I can also fire my 6921 this way with the stock collapsed.)
I prefer the shotgun when going into homes under most circumstances. Obviously, I weigh each situation as it arises based on the information received, and then ultimately determine which platform to deploy.
Yesterday, I deployed a long gun twice. The first incident was the AR. Wanted, armed suspects fled in a vehicle, then on foot. They ran through a residential area, then into a graveyard. I established containment on the far end of the graveyard. Naturally, the AR was the obvious choice for this task.
Later in the evening, some POS’s were seen burglarizing a home and thought to still be inside. The shotty was put to use to clear and secure the home.
If I could only have one, I would take the AR in a heartbeat.
From a Home Defense perspective:
I just throw on my duty belt or grab a handgun. If I chose a long gun, for my home and living situation, it is a shotgun. Unless the Russians are invading, there really is nothing the shotgun with 00 buck can’t handle.
If I lived in a rural area and/or a bigger home, the AR would be the tool of choice.
This is not, and should not turn into a shotgun vs. AR debate. This is the way I see it. And, yes, I am in the minority with my thinking. I say…what ever makes you sleep better at night. I still have a lot of faith in the shotgun and 00 buck. I do not care for slugs. As a rule, if you anticipate needing slugs (for range), take an AR (unless it is a BEAR attack! :D). I do keep 4 slugs in the saddle for exigent circumstances.
What best suits me, may not be what best suits you or the next guy.
Your millage will vary.
I find myself deploying the shotgun more than the carbine as well.
The last two times I grabbed the 870, I did so mainly because my partner that night grabbed his carbine.
In one case, I covered a rear door while an EDP was being called out. He had access to his dad's gun collection. I felt more comfortable in being able to handle any threats in the door way with the shotgun. My partner, who is a lot newer to the job than me, feels more comfortable with his carbine.
But it is a case by case issue with me (rifle vs. shotgun). The shotgun is just another hammer in the tool box.
BWT,
Scroll up and read my first post in this thread brother.
I touched on exactly what you're saying although the points that you put up are excellent as they delve further into the price divide.
If i was going to recommend anything for self defense to someone who i KNOW isnt going to train enough i would recommend a pistol so long as i know they're going to take the idea of owning a firearm seriously.
For everyone else i tell them to hire a bodyguard or get a can of Mace lest they kill themselves. :)
I'm an idiot, I looked through the first page and somehow missed your initial post.
That's my mistake.
I'm an idiot, I looked through the first page and somehow missed your initial post.
That's my mistake.
You're not an idiot!!!! No sweat man, your post contributed alot to the thread because it added details and actual costs other than my very simple, bare bones post in regards to cost of each platform.
With a trained, switched on shooter, the shotgun is one of the most versatile weapon systems available.
Hammer of Thor.
Take a look through some of the AAR's that people who've been through a Rob Haught class have posted.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=37851
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=50718
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=63359
Every morning I load an M4 and an 870 into my ride. More often than not I pull out the SG. Nice reads above on the Haught courses I would like to attend one if he comes out my way.
$CashMoney$
11-15-10, 12:28
Here's something else to consider:
When I'm "at work" in the ME, I usually don't carry a pistol for a backup. I prefer a autoloading SG, and it will sometimes become my primary for inside work. #4 Buck is great at making big holes in people, without making big holes in walls. 00 penetrates sheetrock walls often, and can endanger someone in the next room. This makes the SG a great HD gun. Yeah, 55 frang. is good, but I've seen even skinny dudes take several 5.56 chest shots and keep on coming. I've never seen someone keep fighting with a direct #4 to the chest.
Also, just the overpowering sound of the SG indoors is enough to make an attacker quit.
I don't know about taking the fight outside, as some have mentioned, those of you lucky (or smart) enough to live in a castle rule state may be able to do that. Those of us who live in the various people's republics are required to retreat. I'd rather have my SG as my last line of defense than an AR or a pistol.
BL: Go with what you know, what you trust, and what you're best at. I'm going with the SG.
I prefer the AR outside the house and the 12ga. inside the house.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is muzzle blast.
When firing indoors a AR can be extremely disorienting, even with electronic ear pro. My 10" SBR is especially obnoxious. If I had a dedicated suppressor that would change things considerably.
I've found a 12ga. to be almost as loud, but the deeper pitch doesn't rock me near as bad as the AR.
jasonhgross
11-15-10, 15:24
Like a previous poster said, whatever you feel comfortable with. For me, it came down to training. I can train with my AR at various ranges near me. The only place I can train with a shotgun is a skeet/trap range where short barrels aren't allowed anyway. It was much easier to train with the AR, the AR is more effective, holds more rounds, and actually easier to operate (for me) under stress. So it became a matter of assessing my own situation and making the decision based on my mission statement and my ability to carry out my mission (dictated by training opportunities).
Some good discussion here if you have not already seen this thread
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=59141&highlight=role
I thought we had just discussed this recently.
You can read my thoughts at that thread.
Much of the the hype and myth surrounding the shotgun, is just that, hype and myth,
"hammer of thor" really? were gonna go there?
Trained shooters are "stunning", same with any weapon system.
Its much easier to make a carbine(5.56/6.8/7.62) fit the shotgun "role" then the other way around.
Bob
You're not an idiot!!!! No sweat man, your post contributed alot to the thread because it added details and actual costs other than my very simple, bare bones post in regards to cost of each platform.
Thanks, I appreciate that.
I do not carry a shotgun on duty. Our team does not use them except for breaching and less lethal. I do, however, wish somebody had one (just don't want to be the dude stuck with it) because I have seen pit bulls soak up several solid hits from 5.56, and when we used them subguns, and still be up and running. I have yet to see a dog take a round of buckshot and stay on it's feet.
I do keep a shotgun handy at home, simply for reactionary purposes. It is cruiser safe, loaded with 00 buck and has a vent rib with a bead. My reasoning? No weapon is easier to make a fast, accurate, snap shot, especially on moving targets. And no, it has nothing to do with filling the hallway with lead or other such nonsense. It is simply that by pointing and looking through the bead you can be very accurate. There is a reason that trap, clays, and skeet shooters don't use rifle sights, pistol grips, M4 stocks, etc. I am not concerned about reloading speed because when it runs dry in the house you transition. Or hopefully either the fight is over or you have made it to your carbine. If I go outside, it is with a carbine. I think in this small window the shotgun excels.
Plus shooting birds is the most fun you can have with a gun...
Now personally I carry a Flamethrower in the trunk and a Bazooka in the rack of my radio car to handle the threats my S&W .500 duty pistol can't handle.................Now if you believe that I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you. I'll always carry a SG when It's available in my car as rifles are not available and have not been since we carried M1 carbines in the 70's . One thing that is important is a SG can be taught to a point of being adequate much easier than a AR can. Let's face it, with your typical 00 Buck round containing 9 pellets, your average shooter can hit someone multiple times with one good round and may hit them once with a poorly aimed one. The perfect round will has the bad guy hit 9 times. Firing an AR at the same bad guy will require 9 shots to get 9 hits. 9 pellets are a lot easier to explain than 9 55 grain slugs from your AR. The intimidation factor is huge as well. Having had a 12 guage pointed at me I thought the guy was armed with a 12" naval rifle. Damn thing looked like a sewer pipe. There is also the sound of the action being racked on an 870 Remington.
Now personally I carry a Flamethrower in the trunk and a Bazooka in the rack of my radio car to handle the threats my S&W .500 duty pistol can't handle.................Now if you believe that I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you. I'll always carry a SG when It's available in my car as rifles are not available and have not been since we carried M1 carbines in the 70's . One thing that is important is a SG can be taught to a point of being adequate much easier than a AR can. Let's face it, with your typical 00 Buck round containing 9 pellets, your average shooter can hit someone multiple times with one good round and may hit them once with a poorly aimed one. The perfect round will has the bad guy hit 9 times. Firing an AR at the same bad guy will require 9 shots to get 9 hits. 9 pellets are a lot easier to explain than 9 55 grain slugs from your AR. The intimidation factor is huge as well. Having had a 12 guage pointed at me I thought the guy was armed with a 12" naval rifle. Damn thing looked like a sewer pipe. There is also the sound of the action being racked on an 870 Remington.
You mean the sound that gives away your position? "Hey here I am, shoot me through the wall!"
Actually after hearing the shotgun rack, the guy either surrenders or gets shot.
I appreciate your post, and you make some valid points. i,ve gotta call foul on the sound thing though. That is one of the most propogated myths around. An AR makes the same sound. So does a pistol.
CumbiaDude
11-19-10, 18:10
"From a pure wound trauma standpoint on a shot against unarmored soft tissue, a close range hit from a 12 ga shotgun using buckshot will create more damage than any 5.56 mm projectile; it is for this reason that Dr. Fackler has expressed his preference for 12 ga buckshot over 5.56 mm for close range defensive use."Better said that I would've been able to. With one blast from 00-buckshot you get 9+ separate wound channels, all penetrating more than minimum FBI requirements, instantly. How many times do you have to pull the trigger on an AR or a pistol to get that? One shot with a shotgun delivers the damage of multiple shots with anything else, and does it instantly.
But I don't have any cool-guy experience, just looking at the numbers. :ph34r:
Suwannee Tim
11-19-10, 19:06
My 1100 keeps my Mini 30 company. It's lonely in the back of the safe.
imo the 556 round is awesome for hd as a 55 grain projectile will penetrate one sheet of drywall before it fragments harmlessly.
Not at all true. It will tumble after a few layers of drywall but certainly not fragment harmlessly....:big_boss:
Suwannee Tim
11-19-10, 19:28
How many deer do you suppose have been hit with buckshot and run off and died, never to be found? Plenty? 00 buckshot penetrates poorly and will not penetrate heavy clothing at a range where each shot is acting independently. A pellet of 00 buckshot is 33 caliber, weighs about 50 grains and travels at pistol velocities. That's why you need a whole bunch of them. I keep my two shotguns for nostalgia. No other reason.
How many deer do you suppose have been hit with buckshot and run off and died, never to be found? Plenty? 00 buckshot penetrates poorly and will not penetrate heavy clothing at a range where each shot is acting independently. A pellet of 00 buckshot is 33 caliber, weighs about 50 grains and travels at pistol velocities. That's why you need a whole bunch of them. I keep my two shotguns for nostalgia. No other reason.
At a range where only 1 pellet of 00 buck shot is hitting a body sized target, you've selected the wrong cartridge. A slug would be a much better choice. Yay, versatility!
Shotgun is the ultimate bug out gun.
It will kill anything in North America with just a change of ammo, from quail and rabbits to moose and polar bears as well as protect you from 2 legged varmints.
That alone is reason enough to keep a shotgun around the house along with a stash of #7, #4, #00 and some slugs.
Shotgun is the ultimate bug out gun.
It will kill anything in North America with just a change of ammo, from quail and rabbits to moose and polar bears as well as protect you from 2 legged varmints.
That alone is reason enough to keep a shotgun around the house along with a stash of #7, #4, #00 and some slugs.
Very well said.
How many deer do you suppose have been hit with buckshot and run off and died, never to be found? Plenty? 00 buckshot penetrates poorly and will not penetrate heavy clothing at a range where each shot is acting independently. A pellet of 00 buckshot is 33 caliber, weighs about 50 grains and travels at pistol velocities. That's why you need a whole bunch of them. I keep my two shotguns for nostalgia. No other reason.
Bad argument as the same thing could be said of many high powered CF rifle cartridges.
00B would be a poor choice for deer(or not ideal) just as the .223 is.
langston302
11-20-10, 08:32
well let me have a go....
I carry both....I like the ability to clear a house with buck and go through more solid object with a slug.
I like the heft the balance and the "badass" feel that a well maintained and properly trained on shotgun can offer.
I have taken more than one shotgun course and feel rather good about deploying one under stress. I have even seen a 20" 870 go 200 yds on rifled slug and make consistent center mass hits on a B-27 with a good shooter behind the trigger.
to me it all boils down to choices. I carry a wide variety of shells for all types of applications.
I also feel rather spunky about my AR platform. I shoot it very well and can run it pretty damn good too. I can see all sides of this discussion and think there are valid points on both.
I just dont think that an AR carries that versatility that a shotty does. Yeah the shotty requires more work to master than most are willing to give(or handle since it will beat your ass like a mutherflicker), and choose the AR since it is an easier system to master and shoot consistently.
I will never give up my shotgun and yes I have used it so many more times than my rifle in my career. Like it has been said many many many times.....better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it, its just a tool in the box.
Suwannee Tim
11-20-10, 18:50
For use against humans at close range, 15 yards or less, hell yes, a shotgun will get the job done. Otherwise, I am skeptical. I was a very active deer hunter at one time and saw a lot of shotguns in use, both with buckshot and slugs. I have found buckshot pellets in deer in old wounds healed up several times. I have seen deer take a full load of buckshot at thirty yards and run off. Maybe rifled barrels change the situation but slugs lack the accuracy to hit the barn. I really came to dislike shotguns for big game. I talked to a couple of officers who shot a man with shotguns several times. It was about as cold as it gets in Florida and at the time we had a fleeing felon law. Said officers unloaded on felon with their shotguns and the felon only ran faster until he ran into an officer with a 357 and gave up. As the officers stripped layer after layer of clothing off the guy they found what happened to the buckshot. Soaked up by Homey's clothing. On the other hand, a Florida Department of Corrections guard shot at an escapee with a 12 gauge at 200 yards, killed the escapee with one pellet. The guard then died of a heart attack:
Officer Paul Jordan (http://www.odmp.org/officer/7286-correctional-officer-paul-jordan)
Shotgun is the ultimate bug out gun.
As far as the universal gun, there is no such thing. I guarantee you, in a survival situation you do not want a 12 gauge. The ammunition is too heavy for foraging. You want a 22. For self defense, a handgun or a rifle. For big game, a rifle. Except for close combat a shotgun is second best to everything else which makes it best at nothing. I have paddled a canoe in the Canadian Arctic and I have friends who have vast experience in the far wilderness. I have never seen or heard of anyone taking a shotgun. A 22 for small game and a 30-06 or such for bears. Can't take handguns into Canada.
arizona98tj
11-20-10, 21:28
Maybe rifled barrels change the situation but slugs lack the accuracy to hit the barn. I really came to dislike shotguns for big game.
I've been around too many shotguns that do well enough with slugs to agree with that statement. My experience simply indicates otherwise.
Some targets shot with my shotgun.....using three different slug loads. The last photo, not labeled, was also shot at 50 yards with a 2.8" group. Sure, they aren't MOA groups.....but then again I haven't seen any MOA barns either. ;)
http://www.stu-offroad.com/firearms/fnh/slpmk1/slpmk1-11.jpg
http://www.stu-offroad.com/firearms/fnh/slpmk1/slpmk1-12.jpg
http://www.stu-offroad.com/firearms/bp/bp-8.jpg
I have a shotgun. It is a Remington 870 that was a vent rib and cut down before I got it. I added a Wilson Combat mag extension and a side saddle to it. The problem I have with it is in deployment. Primary HD is a Glock 19 with Surefire X300. Behind that is my AR. I can't find a reason to keep the shotgun. Can anyone tell me what it does that the AR does not.
I'm not looking to start a war, but am struggling with my own definition of purpose for this gun.
Thanks!
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a351/Bullseye_Doc_Holiday/trial001.jpg
Shooting skeet with 6 1/2 shot out of a tactical shotgun is insanely entertaining in my opinion. Give it a try, if you have not already. Hard to hit skeet with an AR.
Suwannee Tim
11-21-10, 07:11
I've been around too many shotguns that do well enough with slugs to agree with that statement.
Was that shotgun rifled or smooth?
Shooting skeet with 6 1/2 shot out of a tactical shotgun is insanely entertaining in my opinion.
Can't argue with that. I enjoyed taking my Ithaca Mag 10 as "backup". When someone would miss a clay I would bust the target just before it hit the ground. Kind of expensive though.
Maybe rifled barrels change the situation but slugs lack the accuracy to hit the barn.
You are sadly mistaken.
People will often tell you that a shotgun is the most versatile weapon you can have. It's NOT. An AR or other assault rifle is much more "versatile".
A shotgun is a specialist niche weapon that you can setup for a particular situation. The key is to recognize the needs of the situation and load up the shotgun with the appropriate loads. At ranges under 20yrds, the shotgun is probably the most effective weapon you can use on a person with buckshot.....even someone wearing body armor as the pellet spread allows you to more effectively target the head or vitals of the torso. Most shotgun shootings that involve buckshot tend to result in dead subjects. Each shot has demonstrated that it tends to hit more vital parts of the body, and causes more rapid bleedout. This was demonstrated by Dr. Martin Fackler after decades of studying gunshot wounds in the US and in Vietnam.
I only grab my patrol shotgun if I'm going to be indoors at close ranges, or at night when the lighting conditions reduce effective combat range. You can bet that the first weapon I grab for HD is my 14" 870 with surfire forend.
I agree with most all you said except for:
People will often tell you that a shotgun is the most versatile weapon you can have. It's NOT. An AR or other assault rifle is much more "versatile".
Perhaps its your definition of versatile. But the shotgun can do far more than an AR can across a broad spectrum of scenarios.
I haven't seen many people out shooting doves or pheasants with an AR. I don't know many people in Alaska that carry an AR in bear country. I can go on, but I think you see what I mean by 'versatile'.
A shotgun is a specialist niche weapon that you can setup for a particular situation.
And that right there is what makes it versatile.
arizona98tj
11-21-10, 09:27
Was that shotgun rifled or smooth?
Smooth bore.
And the targets I posted were shot with my FNH SLP Mk1 using an IC choke.
Yesterdays 3-gun match.
I was shooting my plain cylinder bore 18" Benelli Nova with rifle sights and Brenneke Tactical slugs.
We had "bonus shots" at 35, 50 and 70 yards which were clay pigeons.
If you hit the pigeon with a slug you had time subtracted from your stage time.
We also had mini poppers at 50-70 yards and a full sized steel IPSC silhouette at 85 yards that you had to engage with slugs.
I missed the 70 yard pigeon by about 6" and had to take a second shot to hit the mini-popper at 70 yards.
From standing.
If you can't make a good slug shot inside 100 yards... it's YOU not the shotgun.
I agree with most all you said except for:
Perhaps its your definition of versatile. But the shotgun can do far more than an AR can across a broad spectrum of scenarios.
I haven't seen many people out shooting doves or pheasants with an AR. I don't know many people in Alaska that carry an AR in bear country. I can go on, but I think you see what I mean by 'versatile'.
And that right there is what makes it versatile.
It depends on what you define as "versatile". My definition is that you can grab your weapon and quickly deploy it for a wide range of unpredictable situations without long prep time. The AR fufills this definition. Combat by its nature is "unpredictable".
The shotgun doesn't not fufill this definition of versatility. It is best used when you have a predictable environment. Yes, you can make it ready for a particular scenario, but it takes time to change out your loading and if the scenario suddenly changes, you have to change your loading again to adapt.
Here's an example. You prepare for an indoor shortrange engagement, and then it goes outdoors with long ranges. You are loaded with 00-buckshot, and in order to be combat effective you must change out to slugs. With an assault rifle, you are combat effective in almost all scenarios with no valuable time spent trying to adapt your equipment to the environment. Then there is the logistics problems of trying to carry multiple loadouts to meet specific combat environments.
That is my definition of combat versitility.
Hunting or game protection is another matter. Those are by enlarge predictable circumstances which the shotgun is capable of addressing.
m24shooter
11-21-10, 11:15
You are sadly mistaken.
Agreeed Mac. I've shot head-sized plates at 115 yards without problem from a smoothbore.
Slugs are pleny capable of accuracy, and some do very well in that department.
Since I do not want to elaborate what I believe the nearly endless uses of a sg are, I asked some of the Vietnam vets, this morning, who have a club at the range I go to, this question. As quoted by one member, "A couple of guys with a sg would clear a hut out." And by another, "When the enemy (enemy is the word I am replacing his word with) charged you with a knife, you needed to be able to put him on his ass, quick. The sg never failed at doing this." I will add that some of these vets were not and still are not fans of the 5.56 round.
I am fascinated every time I speak to these men.
langston302
11-21-10, 18:58
It depends on what you define as "versatile". My definition is that you can grab your weapon and quickly deploy it for a wide range of unpredictable situations without long prep time. The AR fufills this definition. Combat by its nature is "unpredictable".
The shotgun doesn't not fufill this definition of versatility. It is best used when you have a predictable environment. Yes, you can make it ready for a particular scenario, but it takes time to change out your loading and if the scenario suddenly changes, you have to change your loading again to adapt.
Here's an example. You prepare for an indoor shortrange engagement, and then it goes outdoors with long ranges. You are loaded with 00-buckshot, and in order to be combat effective you must change out to slugs. With an assault rifle, you are combat effective in almost all scenarios with no valuable time spent trying to adapt your equipment to the environment. Then there is the logistics problems of trying to carry multiple loadouts to meet specific combat environments.
That is my definition of combat versitility.
Hunting or game protection is another matter. Those are by enlarge predictable circumstances which the shotgun is capable of addressing.
yup. you dont realize it but you are making a great argument for the shotgun.........
Anyone claiming that an AR is more versatile than a shotgun, does not understand the shotgun.
Actually, I don't think he is, I'm with Entropy on this one.
Here's my definition of "versatility". I can fight to the obj., on the obj. and from the obj. with one gun and ammo.
IE: I can engage adversaries in a window of a building, from a distance, kick in the door to the room of that window, give the gas to 2-3 adversaries, move to another window, and engage 2-3 adversaries that either fled, or are in the next building w/o even changing my point of aim, let alone ammo in the gun. They can be armored, or not, hostage rescue and other high percentage shots, i can carry much more ammo, and reload much quicker.
That's my kind of versatility.
How many, large, active, special operations type organizations, .mil or leo, choose a shotgun as a primary arm of its operators?
Yea, a shotgun can handle alot of scenarios, from bird hunting to breaching, but you need to be prepared and have the ammo, or parts to deal with those situations. Just how many rounds of bird shot, buckshot, slugs, breaching, flame thrower rounds are you gonna carry? And they take up alot of room.
Someone mentioned "bug out" gun. This has been a topic of conversation for me and my acquaintances, as of lately. A shotgun, is much farther down the list. Much depends on what kind of scenario you envision, but I'd grab a good pistol first, then an M4, then a .22 rifle/pistol, then a good 7.62 bolt gun, might not even think about a shotgun.
None of this means a shotgun is not viable in certain situations, or certain people, but it not the panacea, some would have you believe.
I know alot of vets, from VN thru the GWOT, that had and have no issue with the M16fow or the 5.56, opinions vary. War stories are cool, but It ry and stick with current and relevent info.
Bob
Anyone claiming that an AR is more versatile than a shotgun, does not understand the shotgun.
I guess I'm in the dark then:rolleyes:, at least I'm in good company.
Bob
Actually, I don't think he is, I'm with Entropy on this one.
Here's my definition of "versatility". I can fight to the obj., on the obj. and from the obj. with one gun and ammo.
IE: I can engage adversaries in a window of a building, from a distance, kick in the door to the room of that window, give the gas to 2-3 adversaries, move to another window, and engage 2-3 adversaries that either fled, or are in the next building w/o even changing my point of aim, let alone ammo in the gun. They can be armored, or not, hostage rescue and other high percentage shots, i can carry much more ammo, and reload much quicker.
That's my kind of versatility.
How many, large, active, special operations type organizations, .mil or leo, choose a shotgun as a primary arm of its operators?
Yea, a shotgun can handle alot of scenarios, from bird hunting to breaching, but you need to be prepared and have the ammo, or parts to deal with those situations. Just how many rounds of bird shot, buckshot, slugs, breaching, flame thrower rounds are you gonna carry? And they take up alot of room.
Someone mentioned "bug out" gun. This has been a topic of conversation for me and my acquaintances, as of lately. A shotgun, is much farther down the list. Much depends on what kind of scenario you envision, but I'd grab a good pistol first, then an M4, then a .22 rifle/pistol, then a good 7.62 bolt gun, might not even think about a shotgun.
None of this means a shotgun is not viable in certain situations, or certain people, but it not the panacea, some would have you believe.
[I know alot of vets, from VN thru the GWOT, that had and have no issue with the M16fow or the 5.56,] opinions vary. War stories are cool, but It ry and stick with current and relevent info.
Bob
It is why I mentioned some of them were not a fan of the 5.56, not all of them. Whether you used a sg in VN, or you use one today, if you are still alive because it helped save your life, it is relevant.
Someone somewhere used a butter knife to save his life, thats great, I'm not replacing my Strider with one though.
Bob
Someone somewhere used a butter knife to save his life, thats great, I'm not replacing my Strider with one though.
If I had a sigline, I think that would be it.
Bottom line is, that it's better for more than just birds.
All weapon systems have limitations and you just have to know them and work within them the best you can.
As the OP, I've enjoyed watching this discussion, and have learned quite a bit. My initial question was flawed because a shotgun is good for other things than birds. However, for me, I prefer to use other tools as I believe they fit the roles better than a shotgun. Thanks for all the info and for holding a civil discussion while exploring multiple vantage points. I love this site!
Moose-Knuckle
11-23-10, 19:01
As others have hit upon, the shotgun is another tool in the tool box. Anyone who is serious about firearms would fare well if disciplined on the platform.
With the shear volume of variety in loads and barrels both type and length the end user has a surfeit of options.
AA-12 Combat vs. full auto AR thread possibility?
langston302
11-23-10, 21:19
Bottom line is, that it's better for more than just birds.
All weapon systems have limitations and you just have to know them and work within them the best you can.
this is a great simple response....I love it
arizona98tj
11-24-10, 17:36
I clicked on a link today and ended up on Magpul's web site.....the page was for their shotgun training DVD. I had to chuckle when I read it as I immediately thought of this thread. It said.....
While it's the most versatile and violent weapon system in the small arms arsenal, the shotgun brings a level of complexity that requires extensive training to master.
Obviously, the shotgun is very versatile....Magpul said it is. :D
I'm sure their verbiage has nothing to do with selling their product. :rolleyes:
Moose-Knuckle
11-24-10, 18:24
I clicked on a link today and ended up on Magpul's web site.....the page was for their shotgun training DVD. I had to chuckle when I read it as I immediately thought of this thread. It said.....
While it's the most versatile and violent weapon system in the small arms arsenal, the shotgun brings a level of complexity that requires extensive training to master.
Obviously, the shotgun is very versatile....Magpul said it is. :D
I'm sure their verbiage has nothing to do with selling their product. :rolleyes:
I shared the same opinion way before the founding of MD. I have always condisered it the Homeowner's Howitzer.
A guy can buy anything from an $200 Maverick 88 to a $2500 Benelli M4 and have various loads for a wide array of applications. Smooth bore, rifled bore, countless chokes, an array of sighting systems, mulitple stock options for every make, the list goes on and on. . .
this is a great simple response....I love it
It may be a simple response, but unfortunatley thing are rarely simple. The OP's question, required more then a simple answer. Especially as he laid it out.
Bob
It may be a simple response, but unfortunatley thing are rarely simple. The OP's question, required more then a simple answer. Especially as he laid it out.
Bob
That's what the first 4 pages of the thread were. A discussion on the various opinions and experience on the usefulness of the shotgun.
It's up to the OP to decide now.;)
Gee, thanks, I didn't know that:rolleyes:
Are we now not allowed to continue the discussion??:confused:
Bob
By all means sir, you may continue.
I like the shotgun for static defense.
I'd hole up in a room with the family and wait for the dirtbag(s) in question to come through the fatal funnel themselves. Pile their ass up in the doorway. If more are behind and leave then I pursue just far enough to ensure they left either the 2nd floor or the house completely.
No need to take the fight outside at that point. Keep the family secure and let someone else come to clean up that sh*t outside.
Very well put sir.
I wouldn't argue that it's a super versatile defensive weapon against humans, but I do believe it is the most versatile all around long-arm in existence.
A city/suburban dweller in a state that allows legitimate AR platforms would likely have not use for a shotgun.
A plain, subtle (no M4 stock, Eotech, etc.) like the OP's is a nice gun if you are out in the wilderness a lot. An M4 strapped to your quad's handlebars, your jeep's rollbar or your backpack will raise some eyebrows. A utilitarian shotgun will not.
This is when it becomes really versatile. I can go for a long hike/drive on the family ranch and bordering government land with ONE gun. With that gun I can do anything from taking small varmints/pests to protecting myself from large predators (two or four legged) with a quick ammo change. All while not looking like a narco gorilla, and possibly having sheriffs/rangers called.
I would feel much better armed for a threat with an M4, but I never feel poorly armed with an 870.
Probably already been said,but,
racking a pump SG has a sound, especially in a house, that will likely make weary perps leave without you needing to fire a shot (You win)
if you are ever crippled or having to carry something while in CQB, besides a pistol, I see a shotgun being easier to shoot being that it is not so subject to needing precise shooting. the extra bullets and spread just might make that inch of a difference.
For the hunter, they make great brush guns.
And it is an 18" 7 round 870 12 gauge that is kept on my families front porch at the river house in Alaska. It is the bear gun. And one nosey bear, who was up to no good, has been dropped with it. Gald it was there for quick and easy use. It's def my go to gun.
ChicagoTex
12-03-10, 04:48
racking a pump SG has a sound, especially in a house, that will likely make weary perps leave without you needing to fire a shot (You win)
This has been discussed to death, so I'll just give you the punchline: If it's time to pull a gun out, bullshit posturing with sound shouldn't even be a factor in your thinking.
if you are ever crippled or having to carry something while in CQB, besides a pistol, I see a shotgun being easier to shoot being that it is not so subject to needing precise shooting. the extra bullets and spread just might make that inch of a difference.
Unless you're shooting thousand-pellet birdshot at moderate ranges, the spread isn't gonna big enough to compensate for lax shooting fundamentals. Shotguns, like anything else, need to be aimed and fired properly - failure to do so just yields bigger misses, not hits.
Because my shotgun can do more things, I spend more time with it, and I've been doing so for longer. So it's more familiar to me than any other gun I own. Familiarity and thus conditioning goes a long, long way. It's hard to beat someone who's been doing the same thing with the same equipment for the majority of their life.
Jesse Tischauser
12-16-10, 09:05
These videos are the best reasons I can find to own a few shotguns.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTktlEyfdBU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QKwirSo-Wo&feature=youtube_gdata_player
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmaEbQime9c&feature=youtube_gdata_player
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKeEOFYSvbo&feature=youtube_gdata_player
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ9RosQ2FAA&feature=youtube_gdata_player
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTh_GPTGST4&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Nordic Components is putting on a big all shotgun match an hour or so NW of Minneapolis this August. Shotguns are fun when the hold a lot of rounds and you unload those rounds as fast as possible at challenging targets:)
Being that the shotgun delivers more rounds, approximately eight or nine 9mm sized rounds with each trigger stroke, makes it the perfect home defense weapon from an amount of force delivered standpoint.
It is a weapon of extreme violence and power, which is what I want when defending my home, as it has the ability to better stop a threat when compared to the handgun or the 5.56 caliber rifle. It can also be used with surgical accururacy, depending upon your gun, out to about 100 Yards. That makes it more versitle, IMHO.
Biker
swampthing
12-21-10, 05:08
I use it for home defense because it's what easiest for my girlfriend to use. We've gone to the range a few times and she has the operation down very well. The AR is a bit more difficult as we haven't spent much time on it, and she is working on her accuracy with pistols.
Rather than have one gun for me, one for her, a backup, etc sitting unlocked in an empty house, there is only one gun for someone to steal if they do break in while we're not home.
She can use it if I become incapacitated, is fairly accurate with it, and from everything I've read it should be capable in stopping, or at least slowing an intruder.
perhaps as time goes on and we both become more competent and confident with other weapons the go to gun will change, but for now this is the best choice for us.
So in short, you may want to keep the shotgun if the other members of your household don't know how to operate anything else with any proficiency.
ETA: Also, we go camping and hiking a lot. I don't have a need for a 50 cal handgun aside from bear and moose protection so the shotgun and bear mace fill that role. It also doubles and a clay pigeon gun too. (Not the best choice, but it is a lot of fun.)
A 12gg is great for HD. You have the ability to change ammo easy, mix ammo, and load less lethal rounds in front of lethal, and lets not forget the damage a 12gg does up close. Why would you chase a invader out of your home And I would think if your not a LEO and shoot someone outside shotgun range your going to get into some legal trouble.
Less Lethal and Lethal rounds do not mix. You're asking for trouble with that combination.
Shotgun is the ultimate bug out gun.
It will kill anything in North America with just a change of ammo, from quail and rabbits to moose and polar bears as well as protect you from 2 legged varmints.
That alone is reason enough to keep a shotgun around the house along with a stash of #7, #4, #00 and some slugs.
Well said versatile weapon. Also lower profile. I have an 870 Turkey gun with a 21" bbl 28" bbl and 20" rifled slug bbl. It is fun to shoot and one if the first gu.s I learned to shoot. Ammo is easy to find everywhere. It is also cheap to buy or add another to your collection.
Not that he needs my help, but I'll back up R Moran on this.
Shotguns are great for a few things, but I have no use for one.. The AR is a way better weapon system as far as versatility.
Too many folks attach a misplaced devotion to a gun that has a lot of recoil, limited ammo capacity, heavy ,bulky ammo with limited range and a very cumbersome and easy to fumble reloading process.
I don't pick my tools based on lore and romantic notions, nor do I pick them based on how the public may perceive the tool I use..
Cops used them for years because the guys who run dept are for the most point, clueless admin types who worry about liability and cost... not performance and right tool for the job.
It's rare to find anyone who has even a moderate skill at running a scattergun...Yea, I know.. the New magpul shotgun video will make them cool for awhile and accessories will fly out the door... that's great, hopefully it will cause a reduction in AR parts cost and I can snag a few nice extras while everyone is glued to there MP video...
I pick the tool that gives me the best options and performance.... and a shotgun ain't it....
Being that the shotgun delivers more rounds, approximately eight or nine 9mm sized rounds with each trigger stroke, makes it the perfect home defense weapon from an amount of force delivered standpoint.
It is a weapon of extreme violence and power, which is what I want when defending my home, as it has the ability to better stop a threat when compared to the handgun or the 5.56 caliber rifle. It can also be used with surgical accururacy, depending upon your gun, out to about 100 Yards. That makes it more versitle, IMHO.
Biker
See that right there is one of the biggest misconceptions of a shotgun...Try patterning your shotgun at 10 yds and you will see that most of them shoot a tight pattern, so tight that it's basically a single projectile. and at HD ranges, the pattern IS a single projectile. Which means you have to aim.. which also means you have the potential to miss... Not exactly the "trench broom of lore...
and the majority of folks who use a Shotgun for HD, don't even have OO buck, they use Bird shot, cause of fear of over penetration. and the ballistics on #7.5 shot is dismal at best.
You want the ultimate weapon of extreme violence and power???
Good luck with that,, cause it does not exist.
7-10 rds of 75 grain 5.56mm delivered in rapid succession to the chest which leaves me 23- 20 rds left to deal with other threats, or to use to stop the single thread if the first 7-10 rds did not work..
There is no "Magic Death ray" you would be surprised over gunfights involving Shotguns that did not stop the threat.
The problem with the "I'll shoot him 7 times until he dies" theory is that he will be shooting at you too. While he is busy dying, you stand a good chance of taking a round yourself. You want your first shot to have the best chance of putting him down. Carbines and rifles both will fail to do this. However, the shotgun loaded with 00 buck will fail less often.
In the home, at bad breath distances, instant incapacitation is the #1 attribute that will determine whether you live or die. Your best chance is a shotgun.
CumbiaDude
12-22-10, 22:37
...Try patterning your shotgun at 10 yds and you will see that most of them shoot a tight pattern, so tight that it's basically a single projectile. and at HD ranges, the pattern IS a single projectile. Which means you have to aim.. which also means you have the potential to miss...
... 7-10 rds of 75 grain 5.56mm delivered in rapid succession to the chest which leaves me 23- 20 rds left to deal with other threats, or to use to stop the single thread if the first 7-10 rds did not work..It's true (obviously :D ) that you have to aim a shotgun, but the basic idea is still valid. One round from a shotgun delivers multiple wound paths to a target... it's not just "one round", it is indeed 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 multiple, independent wound tracks. You can see it in ballistics gel tests: except for the pellets that end up behind another pellet, they are separate wound tracks, so it's 9 separate wounds, delivered in one instant. It's like if you freeze time and shoot 9 separate shots at once (not out of a 9x19mm, but still, it ain't bad... maybe like a .32 ACP?). From that perspective it's like having a full-auto vz. 61 Škorpion with an 81 rd magazine... kinda.
That's how I look at it, anyway.
See that right there is one of the biggest misconceptions of a shotgun...Try patterning your shotgun at 10 yds and you will see that most of them shoot a tight pattern, so tight that it's basically a single projectile. and at HD ranges, the pattern IS a single projectile. Which means you have to aim.. which also means you have the potential to miss... Not exactly the "trench broom of lore...
and the majority of folks who use a Shotgun for HD, don't even have OO buck, they use Bird shot, cause of fear of over penetration. and the ballistics on #7.5 shot is dismal at best.
You want the ultimate weapon of extreme violence and power???
Good luck with that,, cause it does not exist.
7-10 rds of 75 grain 5.56mm delivered in rapid succession to the chest which leaves me 23- 20 rds left to deal with other threats, or to use to stop the single thread if the first 7-10 rds did not work..
There is no "Magic Death ray" you would be surprised over gunfights involving Shotguns that did not stop the threat.
You obviously have never seen what 00 buck does when it hits meat. I hate to tell you, but a "single projectile" be it tightly patterned buckshot or a slug will do much more damage than .223. Terminal effectiveness of the 12 gauge is not "lore" it has been proven for over 100 years. If you want you use an AR, fine, no one cares. But, don't think that 00 buck is less effective at close range than .223. If I have to put something (someone) down right now, I want a 12 gauge. If I can only manage to put one round on target, I would much rather it be one round of 00 buck that one round of .223.
Shotguns are great for a few things, but I have no use for one..
Good, more for those that do.
The AR is a way better weapon system as far as versatility.
Says you. Try picking off some dove passing overhead...or maybe going up against that coastal grizz when you are salmon fishing...plenty of whitetail country that does not allow for 5.56 or any rifle for that matter, yet plenty fall to the shotgun - year in and year out.
Too many folks (Paiting with a broad brush here aren't ya?) attach a misplaced devotion to a gun that has a lot of recoil (Recoil can be managed with proper training.), limited ammo capacity(On a properly set up shotgun, capacity is the same as many 1911s.), heavy (Often times no more than an AR and many times, much less.),bulky ammo with limited range(I'll give you that. But if you are going into rifle country, take a rifle - I don't see anyone arguing that the shotgun replaces the rifle at all times.) and a very cumbersome (Hardly.)and easy to fumble reloading process. (Perhaps a bit, but not a show stopper.)
[QUOTE=Harv;853678] I don't pick my tools based on lore and romantic notions, nor do I pick them based on how the public may perceive the tool I use..
Rock on. Neither do I nor do I suspect do many others here.
Cops used them for years because the guys who run dept are for the most point, clueless admin types who worry about liability and cost... not performance and right tool for the job.
Perhaps for some departments...but I think the overiding factor was primarily tradition and cost. Really now...if they were thinking liability, the last thing a tool bean counter would want to do is put a shotgun in a neophyte's hands. Most modern police departments now have much more leeway to configure their weapon set for the mission they see themselves encountering more often than not.
It's rare to find anyone who has even a moderate skill at running a scattergun...
I'll give you that one too. However, training can fix that, and for those that do carry the SG either because they want to or are forced too should ensure that they receive the initial training along with recurrent training. One can not blame the weapon for the failure of the shooter to obtain skill. Kinda goes back to the indian and the arrow principle.
I pick the tool that gives me the best options and performance.... and a shotgun ain't it....
For you. ;) And that is important to remember in this discussion.
I can see your a big Shotgun fan, so you will be hard pressed to be convinced otherwise... we will just agree to disagree....
Most folks who are rabid SG fans are not going to be swayed...
I can see your a big Shotgun fan, so you will be hard pressed to be convinced otherwise... we will just agree to disagree....
Most folks who are rabid SG fans are not going to be swayed...
The problem is that you are coming at this from a childish "I'm-right-you're-wrong-end-of-story" position. The first step to knowledge is opening your ears, not your mouth.
See that right there is one of the biggest misconceptions of a shotgun...Try patterning your shotgun at 10 yds and you will see that most of them shoot a tight pattern, so tight that it's basically a single projectile.
The dark pasters are 9 pellet #00.
The holes are 27 pellet #4 Buckshot.
12 yards.
Pattern so tight "it's basically a single projectile..." :rolleyes:
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/JodyHuggins/buckshot.jpg
I can see your a big Shotgun fan, so you will be hard pressed to be convinced otherwise... we will just agree to disagree....
Most folks who are rabid SG fans are not going to be swayed...
You are right, I am a fan of the SG. And a big fan of the M4. That said, I know better than to discount a weapon based on personal "beliefs" or perhaps.........................a lack of skill with the weapon in question??? Hmmm? ;)
You stick to your way of thinking though bro. I'm not trying to dissuade you. If you don't like or can't handle the SG, it is definitely better for you not to be around one. They aren't for the faint of heart, weak of mind, or the short of breath. :)
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