View Full Version : Which trigger? (tactical/hd AR)
TonyTacoma
11-12-10, 19:14
I'm just starting putting together an AR for the first time and I'm having a great time doing so. I've decided to build up the lower myself and already have an upper, my question is which trigger set up do I need? This rifle will be purely tactical in purpose, home defense, range, training hopefully. I'm not sure the difference between a two and single stage trigger and the advantages of each. If you guys could give me any info it would be much appreciated!
What's not okay with the standard trigger setup?
TonyTacoma
11-12-10, 20:45
What's not okay with the standard trigger setup?
That's sort of what I'm wondering, there's a lot of options out there. If the standard is a good choice then that's what I'll get just curious of the difference.
2 Stage is for a match/precision gun. Single stage is what 99% of people use for a "combat" weapon.
But...
....if you decide to get a "better" trigger, whether it is single or two stage, be sure to get a trigger that is designed to be a "battle trigger" not an adjustable.
.
TonyTacoma
11-12-10, 21:00
Cool thanks a ton guys, single stage milspec it is.
throwing another log on the fire.. not all "milspec" single stage triggers are equal. colt and LMT seem to make really consistent GI trigs.. i've had almost as consistent experience from CMT. armalite, bushmaster, and RRA trigs seem to be decent, but a little more hit-or-miss, and DPMS produces the single most inconsistent single stage trigger on the market. unfixable, a lot of the time.. i generally polish every trigger i install, but i've come across several DPMS triggers that couldn't be helped even with severe material work. this is why DPMS is basically the only LPK i simply will not use anymore.
I started out my first few years in the Space gun game using only Colt G.I.(mil spec) single stage triggers and I must say looking back I wish I had seen the light earlier in running a high quality, clean breaking, and predictable trigger in my ARs.
Obviously the gun still goes bang w. a 8-10lb. unpredictable and gritty stock trigger, however why short change yourself and your build when a good trigger can exponentially improve your accuracy and trigger control...I honestly believe any shooter no matter how much time behind a gun they have can benefit from a high quality trigger.
2 stage triggers tend to intimidate folks who have never used one before including myself but they are imho the better trigger to achieve accuracy as well as trigger control since you have the 1st stage to align sights and then the 2nd when you are set. You can "slap" through high quality 2 stage triggers like Geissele SSA's, KAC 2stage match triggers or even LMT's 2 stage trigger for the times when you are firing large volumes of successive fire and in this manner these 2 stage triggers are equally adept for cqb or duty/shtf applications as any single stage trigger would be.
I would personally look at the Geissele SSA 2 stage, KAC's 2 stage trigger or LMT's 2stage....all three of these are great triggers that have been proven to be extremely reliable and all are predictable and clean breaking.
Has anybody got the Wilson Combat New Tactial single stage 4.0 lb.match grade trigger /drop-in unit?
crusader377
11-12-10, 22:38
I would just go with the standard GI trigger from a good quality LPK. It is the least expensive option yet the most proven trigger available on an AR
TonyTacoma
11-12-10, 23:02
Very interesting, so the two stage triggers can also be used capably in a home defense or battle rifle scenario?
Also are there any high quality single stage triggers I should look for? DD? Lmt?
I started out my first few years in the Space gun game using only Colt G.I.(mil spec) single stage triggers and I must say looking back I wish I had seen the light earlier in running a high quality, clean breaking, and predictable trigger in my ARs.
Obviously the gun still goes bang w. a 8-10lb. unpredictable and gritty stock trigger, however why short change yourself and your build when a good trigger can exponentially improve your accuracy and trigger control...I honestly believe any shooter no matter how much time behind a gun they have can benefit from a high quality trigger.
2 stage triggers tend to intimidate folks who have never used one before including myself but they are imho the better trigger to achieve accuracy as well as trigger control since you have the 1st stage to align sights and then the 2nd when you are set. You can "slap" through high quality 2 stage triggers like Geissele SSA's, KAC 2stage match triggers or even LMT's 2 stage trigger for the times when you are firing large volumes of successive fire and in this manner these 2 stage triggers are equally adept for cqb or duty/shtf applications as any single stage trigger would be.
I would personally look at the Geissele SSA 2 stage, KAC's 2 stage trigger or LMT's 2stage....all three of these are great triggers that have been proven to be extremely reliable and all are predictable and clean breaking.
D. Christopher
11-12-10, 23:33
I'd highly recommend a high quality standard GI trigger for starters, you can always add a more sophisticated trigger later if you want one, but I wouldn't even consider one unless it was for a precision rifle setup. If you really want to do it right, contact Grant at GRTactical and you can buy a high quality LPK for your lower build with exactly the parts you need and no extra parts you don't need. You won't go wrong with CMT, LMT, or Colt, but avoid DPMS at all costs. Good luck.
not to mention the strong merits of learning marksmanship on a single stage. you'll be a better shooter for the rest of your life if you can master the 8lbs GI trig.
and i wouldn't recommend a $200 trigger to anyone for their first build, "precision" gun or not.
TonyTacoma
11-12-10, 23:55
Thanks a ton I will contact GRtactical and get something ironed out.
I suspect many who do not see the use of a quality trigger in an AR are folks who opted to spend their trigger budget of products like AFG's, VFG's, some $400 weaponlight, $100-$400 muzzle device, $300 set of irons....etc.
Every time my guns go boom I am cashing in on my investments in quality triggers.....triggers just don't look that cool:)
TonyTacoma
11-13-10, 00:13
I suspect many who do not see the use of a quality trigger in an AR are folks who opted to spend their trigger budget of products like AFG's, VFG's, some $400 weaponlight, $100-$400 muzzle device, $300 set of irons....etc.
Every time my guns go boom I am cashing in on my investments in quality triggers.....triggers just don't look that cool:)
I agree completely. This is exactly what I feel and why I asked the question here, I don't feel like I need the best but I do want something high quality.
What about the Geissele SSA trigger? I hear it touted as a non adjustable 2 stage trigger and if the 2 stage fails it reverts back to a singe stage trigger. I was pretty sure I was going to go with this trigger to replace my crappy DPMS trigger from the LPK that I used. However, I have been seeing a few of these pop up on different marketplaces and didnt know if it was not worth the price or something.
2 Stage is for a match/precision gun. Single stage is what 99% of people use for a "combat" weapon.
It's ironic that so many shooting ARs have the idea that 2 stage triggers are for "match/precision" shooting while the single stage is for combat.
The 2 stage trigger is a battle trigger and a better design than the single stage trigger for reducing unintended discharges during high stress situations and from rough handling. For many years, folks derided the military 2 stage triggers found in surplus 03 Springfields and Mausers because of the long take up of the first stage and the heavy pull needed to fire the weapon. Most folks "in the know" back in the day recommended replacing them with crisp breaking single stage "match" triggers by Timney & Canjar which were adjustable to minimize creep and backlash while reducing pull weight.
I suspect that the two stage pull of the Geissele is a design parameter to allow a smooth, crisp release trigger for the AR that will stand up to rough handling and the long reset is to eliminate doubling, especially when the shooter milks the trigger. As I recall, one of the first problems to arise in the early days of using ARs in National Match and other disciplines was the difficulty of tuning the trigger to be crisp and reliable. That's why the first modular drop in triggers for ARs were developed.
Pull weight isn't the most important factor in a good trigger. A shooter is better served by a reliable, predictable, heavy trigger than an unpredictable, unreliable, light one. The long, smooth pull of a good trigger on a double action revolver is better than a single action trigger that while has a lighter, crisper let off, is gritty and may not feel the same with each pull.
Yes, the average and even the beginning shooter is better served by a good trigger. As long as it's remembered that a good trigger is reliable, predictable and smooth and does not have to be fancy or expensive
Wilsons TTU is an excellent single stage trigger.
I just started using the Wilson Combat TTU. It has been flawless and has no hang up spots. Very smooth trigger.
I have the Wilson TTU two stage and love it. I don't have anything to compare it to other than the standard trigger that came in my Stag LPK, but its a night and day difference. I am planning on getting another one for the build I am currently working on.
Rosco Benson
11-13-10, 07:17
Ronin Coleman, of PACT, distributes the American Trigger Corp's "gold trigger module". http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=27227/Product/AR_15_M16_AR_STYLE__308_GOLD_TRIGGER_MODULE
I haven't messed with one, but Ronin knows guns and knows the difference between game guns and serious guns. So does Hershel Davis, who endorses the unit.
http://www.americantrigger.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=53
Rosco
genegoesfast
11-13-10, 07:24
I also have the Wilson TTU and it is nothing short of incredible. Easy to install, breaks very consistently and has no take up or overtravel. I've put 5-600 rounds on it so far, no change what so ever!
With the lone exception on the Knights, every AR I own sports a Giesselle SSA or SSA-E. In the past I've used Timneys(good trigger), JP(great single stage adjustable), Jard, Springfield, RRA, stock, and my polished stock triggers. What many newcomers to the AR series don't realize is that many of the stock AR triggers have a lot of take up/slack before breaking. In application it is not that different than a 2 stage anyway, just heavier and grittier.
GLOCKMASTER
11-13-10, 09:03
I really enjoy using the Geissele SSA triggers. I have one in a rifle that has thousands of rounds through it without any issues. I also have a JP trigger in another rifle that has been flawless as well but I will be replacing that trigger with a Geissele SSA very soon.
I wouldn't hesitate using the Geissele SSA in a duty/self defense type rifle.
I suspect many who do not see the use of a quality trigger in an AR are folks who opted to spend their trigger budget of products like AFG's, VFG's, some $400 weaponlight, $100-$400 muzzle device, $300 set of irons....etc.
Every time my guns go boom I am cashing in on my investments in quality triggers.....triggers just don't look that cool:)
Amen. I now advocate Geissele and Battle Comp for most "general purpose" carbine owners.
Most balk and want the things mentioned. I know; I used to be one. :sarcastic:
TonyTacoma
11-13-10, 11:54
I like the look of the Mega Tactical Trigger but it is an adjustable trigger. Anyone using it, or can tell me about it?
What about the Geissele SSA trigger? I hear it touted as a non adjustable 2 stage trigger and if the 2 stage fails it reverts back to a singe stage trigger. I was pretty sure I was going to go with this trigger to replace my crappy DPMS trigger from the LPK that I used. However, I have been seeing a few of these pop up on different marketplaces and didnt know if it was not worth the price or something.
That is good observation you made in terms of seeing some SSA's(prob. seen KAC's as well) currently on the EE's for sale as of lately and Ive seen them as well.
The reason why this is, or at least in my specific case where recently I had listed a SSA and KAC triggers on EE's is because after quite some time of Geissele Automatics only producing the SSA/SSF and DMR's they recently have released a new lineup up of triggers and they are shaking out to be more innovative and performance enhancing units than the previous models.
I still kept one KAC and two SSA's because they are my personal choices for a true SHTF gun...by extension the triggers I would trust my life with:)
I hold the same idea about triggers as iron sights. Learn and master irons well and it will make you a much better marksman in the end no matter what type of optic you chose. Same concept with triggers. I also feel that you would be much better served if you learn to shoot the stock trigger well. You will be that much better of a shooter if/when you go to an aftermarket set up. I will add that IMO, not all stock type single stage triggers are the same. I will also say that some minor trigger work on a stock trigger can also work wonders for smoothing it out. This is best left to someone qualified to do such work.
I have numerous triggers, a few mentioned in this thread. For myself, I get no advantage with my aftermarket triggers on a non-magnified carbine out to around 450yards that I can notice. I am not faster, nor am I more accurate. On a precision scoped weapon, accuracy with a good trigger is definitely noticeable.
yep.. it wasn't that long ago that the standard, educated response to a new shooter would have been "get a quality GI trigger. learn the basics." and pretty much nothing else.
i understand these newfangled triggers are the greatest thing since sliced gold bullion (about the same price, at least), but they're special purpose parts for special purpose rifles for special purpose purposes. this isn't an expensive-shit competition, it's marksmanship. you develop your ability in stages, or you won't have any. by going straight to a gucci 1/2 pound trigger, you're robbing yourself of the opportunity to learn marksmanship- of which, trigger control is paramount.
or just drop 500% more on a gucci trigger
[harsh, but true, criticism removed by moderator.]
KEEP IT CIVIL.... GOT IT
if my post is to be edited, i'd rather you just subtract, not add.
Coming from a guy who has 6x the amt. of posts I do:sarcastic:
You left off that I am a fanboy as well for KAC, Colt, Nightforce glass, ADM mounts, Magpul furniture, Hornady ammo, AAC muzzle devices......few more I am leaving out;)
2 Stage is for a match/precision gun. Single stage is what 99% of people use for a "combat" weapon.
Really?
jumbopanda
11-13-10, 19:07
I've got a Geissele Hi-Speed Match and I couldn't ask for anything better.
everybody who's posted in favor of gucci triggers has stated nothing other than their love for their trigger. let's try posting why you "couldn't ask for anything better."
not a single person has even attempted to reason why a guyslee trigger would be a good option for the OP.
I have used GI "normal triggers" along with the Geissele SSA which I currently own. I prefer the SSA.
The GI triggers even from good manufactures seemed to be a little gritty in other words the pull back was not too smooth and a little unpredictable. The SSA has a very smooth and predictable pull in the first stage and a very clean break. Because of how smooth the take up is in the first stage, you know right when the hammer is about to be released in the second.....
Captains1911
11-13-10, 21:11
love my timney's
That's great that you love your Timney's, but they do not fit well with the role described by the OP, nor do most of the others recommended in this thread.
Stick with a standard GI trigger if reliability is your number one priority.
Just got back from Rainier Arms where they have demonstrator lowers you can try a couple of different triggers. I did not try the GI trigger while comparing the Geisseles.
The Geisselle SSA (sample of one) had a gritty 1st stage and the 2nd stage had noticeable and gritty creep. It had a definite amount of backlash as well. The pull weight felt about right for a good service rifle. Trigger was predictable and I felt this sample would be far less gritty if lubed and would smooth itself out with use.
The Geiselle Enhanced (I think it's called the SS-E? Also a sample of one) had a smoother 1st stage though it still had a bit of a gritty feel to it. I could detect no creep in the second stage. It broke clean and crisp each time. Had about the same amount of backlash as the SSA. Again, the trigger was dry and with lube & use the grittiness should smooth out. One thing I noted about the E- if you simply stroked it through without taking up the slack of the 1st stage first, it felt much like a good, short stroke non-stacking double action trigger. (I did not test this with the SSA as by this point I decided I like the E trigger better. The SSA may exhibit the same.) The E trigger also had a lighter pull that I really liked.
They had a Geiselle adjustable installed in one of their rifles and I played with it as well. Again the trigger felt dry. The second stage broke light with noticeable creep and the usual backlash. It didn't feel like the trigger was properly adjusted and cannot be fairly compared here.
What I did not like about any of the Geissele triggers I tried was the long reset. The trigger has to be let up completely through both stages before it resets. This makes for a safer and more rugged design, but I've been somewhat spoiled by triggers that resets just before the the beginning of the 2nd stage so I can simply begin my squeeze for the next shot.
The Geisseles also have quite a bit of backlash compared to bolt action triggers. Compared to other semi-auto triggers, where backlash seems to be a necessary evil, it doesn't seem to be excessive.
Overall, I liked the Geisselle triggers. Between the E & the SSA, I'd say get the E because of it's crisp let-off. Between the SSA and a good GI, for the money, I'd say stay with the good GI as long as it's smooth and reliable.
If Geisselle made an Enhanced that had the reset like the trigger of my beloved Garand that didn't double when being "milked", there's be no doubt in my mind what you'd find in my AR
Belmont31R
11-14-10, 01:19
I'm just starting putting together an AR for the first time and I'm having a great time doing so. I've decided to build up the lower myself and already have an upper, my question is which trigger set up do I need? This rifle will be purely tactical in purpose, home defense, range, training hopefully. I'm not sure the difference between a two and single stage trigger and the advantages of each. If you guys could give me any info it would be much appreciated!
which trigger set up do I need?
One that works when you want it to.
I'm not sure the difference between a two and single stage trigge
Single stage has ONE engagement surface. Two stage has two. Each engagement surface gives a different "feel" when you pull the trigger. A single stage will have one constant pull to it. Meaning you put pressure on the trigger, and it feels the same from start to finish. Two stage you have initital take up (take up = pulling the trigger back) for the first stage, and then the 2nd stage engages. On a good 2 stage you'll have 1st stage take up, and then hit a "wall" in the take up. If you press anything past the "wall" then the trigger will engage, and the gun will go off.
Difference being in a single stage you keep pulling and pulling and pulling until the gun goes off. 2 stage you have intitial take up (1st stage trigger pull), hit the 2nd stage, and if you press any further the gun will go off.
Advantages of a 2 stage is you know when the gun will go off. with a single stage its one flat pull. With a stage you can go..ok the first stage got taken up (pulled), and then if I pull anymore the gun is going to go off. Its much better for accuracy than a single stage.
But words cant describe it good enough. Best to have both side by side, and someone who knows what they are talking about guiding you through it.
Belmont31R
11-14-10, 01:20
What's not okay with the standard trigger setup?
Inconsistent pull weight, rough machining means gritty feel.
Belmont31R
11-14-10, 01:21
2 Stage is for a match/precision gun. Single stage is what 99% of people use for a "combat" weapon.
AFAIK the M1903, M1 Garand, and M14 all used 2 stage triggers. The M16 was the 1st US general issue combat weapon with a single stage SA trigger function. Maybe the info I got is bad though. Do you know what triggers the 3 previous general issue guns used?
Belmont31R
11-14-10, 01:22
But...
....if you decide to get a "better" trigger, whether it is single or two stage, be sure to get a trigger that is designed to be a "battle trigger" not an adjustable.
.
I guess you should write the Dept of the Army, and Dept of the Navy, and tell them the Geissele DMR trigger is not an acceptable trigger.
Belmont31R
11-14-10, 01:23
throwing another log on the fire.. not all "milspec" single stage triggers are equal. colt and LMT seem to make really consistent GI trigs.. i've had almost as consistent experience from CMT. armalite, bushmaster, and RRA trigs seem to be decent, but a little more hit-or-miss, and DPMS produces the single most inconsistent single stage trigger on the market. unfixable, a lot of the time.. i generally polish every trigger i install, but i've come across several DPMS triggers that couldn't be helped even with severe material work. this is why DPMS is basically the only LPK i simply will not use anymore.
Try 10 different Colt triggers with the 3 round burst cam....;)
Belmont31R
11-14-10, 01:26
not to mention the strong merits of learning marksmanship on a single stage. you'll be a better shooter for the rest of your life if you can master the 8lbs GI trig.
and i wouldn't recommend a $200 trigger to anyone for their first build, "precision" gun or not.
On the contrary many new shooters become frustrated thinking they are doing something wrong when its really the crappy equipment they are using. New shooters should have positive reinforcement, and not get discouraged by poor results. Most of the time they will think its them that sucks, and know nothing about poor accuracy because they are battling an 8-10lb stock trigger.
Belmont31R
11-14-10, 01:29
I hold the same idea about triggers as iron sights. Learn and master irons well and it will make you a much better marksman in the end no matter what type of optic you chose. Same concept with triggers. I also feel that you would be much better served if you learn to shoot the stock trigger well. You will be that much better of a shooter if/when you go to an aftermarket set up. I will add that IMO, not all stock type single stage triggers are the same. I will also say that some minor trigger work on a stock trigger can also work wonders for smoothing it out. This is best left to someone qualified to do such work.
I have numerous triggers, a few mentioned in this thread. For myself, I get no advantage with my aftermarket triggers on a non-magnified carbine out to around 450yards that I can notice. I am not faster, nor am I more accurate. On a precision scoped weapon, accuracy with a good trigger is definitely noticeable.
Why would learning irons 1st make one a better marksman? They are two completely different and independent sighting systems that bear little actual use functionality to one another.
Belmont31R
11-14-10, 01:31
yep.. it wasn't that long ago that the standard, educated response to a new shooter would have been "get a quality GI trigger. learn the basics." and pretty much nothing else.
i understand these newfangled triggers are the greatest thing since sliced gold bullion (about the same price, at least), but they're special purpose parts for special purpose rifles for special purpose purposes. this isn't an expensive-shit competition, it's marksmanship. you develop your ability in stages, or you won't have any. by going straight to a gucci 1/2 pound trigger, you're robbing yourself of the opportunity to learn marksmanship- of which, trigger control is paramount.
or just drop 500% more on a gucci trigger
[harsh, but true, criticism removed by moderator.]
if my post is to be edited, i'd rather you just subtract, not add.
I must have missed the 11th commandment that says one cannot learn trigger control with a 2 stage trigger.
How on earth did soldiers learn those concepts with M1903's and M1's?
Belmont's last three replies are dead on...why the heck should you handicap yourself and your gun at any time...be it when first learning or once a veteran. Sounds to me like the majority of the people that call these high quality aftermarket triggers "gucci" triggers or whatever are simply folks who have either not tried one enough to understand the huge advantage they have or folks to cheap to pony up the cash that it takes to get one....then they could not grab the latest vfg or 1 million candle-watt weaponlight:eek:
Thanks a ton I will contact GRtactical and get something ironed out.
IIRC, Grant has stated that he prefers a 2-stage trigger for a fighting gun. you should ask him about that...
Belmont31R
11-14-10, 03:21
Belmont's last three replies are dead on...why the heck should you handicap yourself and your gun at any time...be it when first learning or once a veteran. Sounds to me like the majority of the people that call these high quality aftermarket triggers "gucci" triggers or whatever are simply folks who have either not tried one enough to understand the huge advantage they have or folks to cheap to pony up the cash that it takes to get one....then they could not grab the latest vfg or 1 million candle-watt weaponlight:eek:
SOS.....:cool:
AFAIK the M1903, M1 Garand, and M14 all used 2 stage triggers. The M16 was the 1st US general issue combat weapon with a single stage SA trigger function. Maybe the info I got is bad though. Do you know what triggers the 3 previous general issue guns used?
You are correct. The 03 family of rifles, M1 Garand and M14 all have two stage triggers. I do not recall of the 30-40 Krag had a two stage trigger or no
Advantages of a 2 stage is you know when the gun will go off. with a single stage its one flat pull. With a stage you can go..ok the first stage got taken up (pulled), and then if I pull anymore the gun is going to go off. Its much better for accuracy than a single stage...
Wait, where did this come from? A shooter will know just when a good single stage trigger goes off just as they would a good two stage.
If a two stage allows a shooter to be more accurate, why are benchrest rifles fitted with single stage triggers?
Belmont's last three replies are dead on...why the heck should you handicap yourself and your gun at any time...be it when first learning or once a veteran. Sounds to me like the majority of the people that call these high quality aftermarket triggers "gucci" triggers or whatever are simply folks who have either not tried one enough to understand the huge advantage they have or folks to cheap to pony up the cash that it takes to get one....then they could not grab the latest vfg or 1 million candle-watt weaponlight:eek:
As you say, there is no reason to be handicapped with a poor trigger. It is after all, the interface between the shooter and the rifle. But you don't have to spend a lot of money either. A good GI trigger with light stoning, grease and use will give you a good trigger for a service rifle. The advantage of "Gucci" triggers is that they are smoother from the start
Belmont31R
11-14-10, 04:56
You are correct. The 03 family of rifles, M1 Garand and M14 all have two stage triggers. I do not recall of the 30-40 Krag had a two stage trigger or no
Wait, where did this come from? A shooter will know just when a good single stage trigger goes off just as they would a good two stage.
If a two stage allows a shooter to be more accurate, why are benchrest rifles fitted with single stage triggers?
As you say, there is no reason to be handicapped with a poor trigger. It is after all, the interface between the shooter and the rifle. But you don't have to spend a lot of money either. A good GI trigger with light stoning, grease and use will give you a good trigger for a service rifle. The advantage of "Gucci" triggers is that they are smoother from the start
Benchrest rifle triggers are measured, generally, in ounces, no?
Completely different type of class of trigger than a USGI vs. 2 stage in the AR platform.
Kinda the same reason you don't see mirage tapes over barrels and 2ft long tubes hanging off optics on here, single loading, leather hand rests, ect
Im not really aware of a single stage that has proven itself as well as Geissele has with AR triggers. The Match triggers, DMR in use in Mk12's, SSF's in socom guns, SSA's in use by untold numbers of civilian shooters without issue. Ive not seen a single stage set the bar in the AR world as they have. I dont pay attention to service rifle matches or anything like that but on this side of the house....? The WC TTU maybe but even that trigger would be scoffed at by the BR crowd.
Me and Belmont must be turning over a new leaf as I agree completely with the above.
A benchrest bolt gun w. a single stage trigger is at the opposite end of the spectrum from a single stage g.i. trigger.
While some have thrown the stone, polish and grease a stock trigger suggestion out there similar to something like the Bill Springfield jobs, this is the last thing I would ever use in a duty/shtf/combat weapon. First off very few people should be performing trigger modifications as if they were a gunsmith as this is the most sure fire way to endanger your own or someone Else's life w. an unsafe trigger. Secondly, you have to start w. an already quality g.i. stock trigger when stoning and polishing it as many stock triggers have to rough of contact points to even work with.
Benchrest rifle triggers are measured, generally, in ounces, no?
Completely different type of class of trigger than a USGI vs. 2 stage in the AR platform.
Kinda the same reason you don't see mirage tapes over barrels and 2ft long tubes hanging off optics on here, single loading, leather hand rests, ect
Im not really aware of a single stage that has proven itself as well as Geissele has with AR triggers. The Match triggers, DMR in use in Mk12's, SSF's in socom guns, SSA's in use by untold numbers of civilian shooters without issue. Ive not seen a single stage set the bar in the AR world as they have. I dont pay attention to service rifle matches or anything like that but on this side of the house....? The WC TTU maybe but even that trigger would be scoffed at by the BR crowd.
I used the benchrest trigger example to challenge the assertion the two stage is a better choice for accurate shooting over the single stage. The simpler design of the single stage trigger means they are easier to tune than a two stage and generally have a better feel.
When you say no single stage trigger has proven itself as well as the Geiselle, I take that you mean none have proven to be as trouble free. From all accounts, that appears to be true.
I will add that for a two stage trigger, the crisp break of the Enhanced is simply amazing
RAM Engineer
11-14-10, 08:03
Stock, USGI triggers have probably killed more smelly bearded bad guys than all these other triggers combined. It's the best place to start.
Belmont31, dude, you need to learn to multiquote...
Why would learning irons 1st make one a better marksman? They are two completely different and independent sighting systems that bear little actual use functionality to one another.It really matters little what I say. You are not going to be convinced no matter what I type and I would just be wasting my time. This topic has already been hashed out here and doing it again is pointless. We would just be going back and forth for no reason. Besides, you've already got it figured out anyway.
Stock, USGI triggers have probably killed more smelly bearded bad guys than all these other triggers combined. It's the best place to start.
Belmont31, dude, you need to learn to multiquote...
I cannot speak on these so called "smelly bearded bad guys", however I have heard of 3 Somalia pirates that seemed to hate the Geissele DMR units that were in the Seal's Mk 12's on the back of the U.S.S. Bainbridge. I wonder if your standard G.I. trigger would be gtg taking 50-100yd head shots in 5-8ft. pitching seas....my guess is not so much:)
Fun Fact....
Geissele triggers are tested in a mechanical device for 10,000 trigger pulls with the 10,000th rd. feeling the same way as the first.
Stock, USGI triggers have probably killed more smelly bearded bad guys than all these other triggers combined. It's the best place to start.
M193 and 1:12 has killed more bad guys than any other AR round or rifling. Most of those weren't even chrome lined.
Yet everyone recommends a 1:7 twist with 77grain SMK. I'm guessing because it does a better job, not because it's killed more people?
Belmont31R
11-14-10, 11:25
I used the benchrest trigger example to challenge the assertion the two stage is a better choice for accurate shooting over the single stage. The simpler design of the single stage trigger means they are easier to tune than a two stage and generally have a better feel.
When you say no single stage trigger has proven itself as well as the Geiselle, I take that you mean none have proven to be as trouble free. From all accounts, that appears to be true.
I will add that for a two stage trigger, the crisp break of the Enhanced is simply amazing
I know there are excellent single stages out there. Since this thread deals with AR triggers thats the context I was speaking in not all guns in general or all triggers for all types of guns.
In the AR world there is not really a single stage that has the same level of permformance or the track record as a Geissele 2 stage.
Belmont31R
11-14-10, 11:25
It really matters little what I say. You are not going to be convinced no matter what I type and I would just be wasting my time. This topic has already been hashed out here and doing it again is pointless. We would just be going back and forth for no reason. Besides, you've already got it figured out anyway.
Ok...:confused:
Belmont31R
11-14-10, 11:28
Stock, USGI triggers have probably killed more smelly bearded bad guys than all these other triggers combined. It's the best place to start.
Belmont31, dude, you need to learn to multiquote...
And 2 stages have killed how many going back to the M1903 and M1 Garand?
I have two ARs, a Bushmaster lower/BCM upper and a BCM lower/upper. My aim is to have both have the same trigger feel, not to get Gucci's. Would the Rock River trigger set do this alright? They seem to be very reasonably priced.
hals1
I know there are excellent single stages out there. Since this thread deals with AR triggers thats the context I was speaking in not all guns in general or all triggers for all types of guns.
In the AR world there is not really a single stage that has the same level of permformance or the track record as a Geissele 2 stage.
The single stage AR Timney I tried, judging from it's feel, would be a better choice for accurate shooting. The Enhanced looks to be a better choice for reliability
M193 and 1:12 has killed more bad guys than any other AR round or rifling. Most of those weren't even chrome lined.
Yet everyone recommends a 1:7 twist with 77grain SMK. I'm guessing because it does a better job, not because it's killed more people?
That is a great point....sometimes I have to remind myself that we are talking about ARs on this site which happens to be the best platform imho to tap every ounce of performance as possible by way of things like triggers, stocks, grips, muzzle devices, enhanced bcg's, SS barrels w. special chambers.....and so on and so forth. Sure the most stripped down AR will still kill zombies and go bang by in large most of the time, but that is not my objective as a builder as find half assing anything never works.
I have two ARs, a Bushmaster lower/BCM upper and a BCM lower/upper. My aim is to have both have the same trigger feel, not to get Gucci's. Would the Rock River trigger set do this alright? They seem to be very reasonably priced.
hals1
Imho don't go with the RRA two stage unit as numerous people have had the 2 stage turn into a mushy one stage. Supposedly as of recent this has gotten a bit better but for the price of the RRA 2stage you can almost get a LMT 2stage which is a much better and far more reliable trigger than the RRA.
Imho don't go with the RRA two stage unit as numerous people have had the 2 stage turn into a mushy one stage. Supposedly as of recent this has gotten a bit better but for the price of the RRA 2stage you can almost get a LMT 2stage which is a much better and far more reliable trigger than the RRA.
Thanks Trident. I was thinking about the LMT too, but they seem to be out of stock several places.
hals1
In the AR world there is not really a single stage that has the same level of permformance or the track record as a Geissele 2 stage.
Belmont, have you rung out a TTU? I preferred it to the SSA and have had very good success shooting at distance with it. For me it gives me the best of both worlds (has a very clean break and reset is automatic)... You can shoot very accurately with it and I also found it reset much faster for me when running drills that required fast follow up shots.
On the other hand I have a buddy that rips an SSA faster than I personally would have thought possible on some of Lambs drills...
I have certainly found triggers to be a highly personal thing, and I highly recommend that guys who are serious about choosing the right trigger, try as many as they can before buying if at all possible...
Thanks Trident. I was thinking about the LMT too, but they seem to be out of stock several places.
hals1
Send me a PM if you want to buy it direct from LMT and I will give the email of a first class gent who can get you squared away:)
...
Nice info D90, do you have the single or two stage Wilson? I prefer a non "drop in" or self contained trigger like the TTU's or Timneys but I would have no problem running the right one.....If I were gonna buy a self contained "drop in" unit I would prob. look at the TTU's or a Gold trigger first as they have gotten some great reviews and what little bit of time I have on the 2stage TTU I enjoyed.
Send me a PM if you want to buy it direct from LMT and I will give the email of a first class gent who can get you squared away:)
Nice info D90, do you have the single or two stage Wilson? I prefer a non "drop in" or self contained trigger like the TTU's or Timneys but I would have no problem running the right one.....If I were gonna buy a self contained "drop in" unit I would prob. look at the TTU's or a Gold trigger first as they have gotten some great reviews and what little bit of time I have on the 2stage TTU I enjoyed.
It's a single with a very crisp 4# break... I have found zero reason for adjustment, I found them "just right" for me out of the box. I have just under 7k rounds through them. I ran an SSA for 1500 rounds and made the switch...
http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Tactical-Trigger-Unit-Single-Stage-Semi-Auto/productinfo/TR-TTU/
...what little bit of time I have on the 2stage TTU I enjoyed.What kind of reset is does the two stage TTU have? Does it reset just before the final stage, or do you have to release all the way up through the first stage as well?
It's a single with a very crisp 4# break... I have found zero reason for adjustment, I found them "just right" for me out of the box. I have just under 7k rounds through them. I ran an SSA for 1500 rounds and made the switch...
http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Tactical-Trigger-Unit-Single-Stage-Semi-Auto/productinfo/TR-TTU/
So what trigger are you talking about? It's not clear to me from your post.
BufordTJustice
11-15-10, 02:47
First: I'm not a Spike's fanboy.
I prefer the Spike's Combat Trigger (NiB coated) for my fighting carbine.
I understand that for people who are new to shooting, it may be beneficial to start their basic marksmanship skills on a stock trigger.
However, what about people (like me) who cut their teeth shooting handguns with heavy triggers like revolvers, DA/SA SIG-Sauers, or Glocks w/ NY triggers?
I jumped right into the black rifle game with no previous black-gun experience and I don't feel that any detriment was done by my 'skipping' the stock mucho-nasty GI trigger. I haven't had any trigger control issues (I'm limited by my stance as much as anything...i'm NOT proclaiming to be a ninja by any means).
I could understand that, if somebody didn't have a background in shooting or they spent most of their time shooting a bolt action rifle, skipping the GI trigger could cheat them from some really good repetitions and foundation-laying. But even the GI trigger is WAY easier than shooting a Glock 26 w/ NY trigger using 124gr +P Speer Lawman on a steel silhouette at 80 yards for time. I've done that. Super heavy Taurus revolver gritty 13.5lb DA trigger pull? Done that too. SIG P228 DA/SA transitions in my agency qual from 25 yards for time? BTDT. So, my questions is: what am I gonna learn from a GI trigger that I haven't already had to overcome in shooting those platforms? I think that it becomes GOOD ADVICE to tell people like me to move up to the better triggers.
I'd own a Geiselle or KAC if I could afford one. But the Spike's NiB trigger has been a beneficial and reliable upgrade that I feel I could recommend to any experienced handgun shooter who is transitioning into running a carbine.
Is my reasoning wrong on this one?
No, Buford, nothing wrong with your logic. Triggers are, after all, a personal choice. It's best folks use what trigger they like best, so long as it meets mission needs.
I see no reason to subject a new shooter to a gritty, creepy, unpredictable trigger other than that they will appreciate a good trigger all the more.
That doesn't mean I think a neophyte should be given a rifle or handgun with the trigger tuned to such a light pull that simply breathing on it will set it off.
A smooth trigger with a predictable break at 7lbs is much preferred to a gritty, rough unpredictable trigger of 3lbs. I'd go so far as to say the latter trigger verges on being dangerous
BufordTJustice
11-15-10, 04:01
No, Buford, nothing wrong with your logic. Triggers are, after all, a personal choice. It's best folks use what trigger they like best, so long as it meets mission needs.
I see no reason to subject a new shooter to a gritty, creepy, unpredictable trigger other than that they will appreciate a good trigger all the more.
That doesn't mean I think a neophyte should be given a rifle or handgun with the trigger tuned to such a light pull that simply breathing on it will set it off.
A smooth trigger with a predictable break at 7lbs is much preferred to a gritty, rough unpredictable trigger of 3lbs. I'd go so far as to say the latter trigger verges on being dangerous
I agree. Knew a guy who decided to roll in the dirt with me while doing drills. Got all kinds of sand and dirt in his G17L's 3.5lb trigger. That bitch was a nightmare to shoot. I much prefer my polished-by-a-billion-dry-fires G21's 5.5lb glassy smooth pull.
So what trigger are you talking about? It's not clear to me from your post.
I run the one linked in my post... I prefer the TTU.
Belmont31R
11-15-10, 14:57
Belmont, have you rung out a TTU? I preferred it to the SSA and have had very good success shooting at distance with it. For me it gives me the best of both worlds (has a very clean break and reset is automatic)... You can shoot very accurately with it and I also found it reset much faster for me when running drills that required fast follow up shots.
On the other hand I have a buddy that rips an SSA faster than I personally would have thought possible on some of Lambs drills...
I have certainly found triggers to be a highly personal thing, and I highly recommend that guys who are serious about choosing the right trigger, try as many as they can before buying if at all possible...
No Ive not. My comments were more about the history of Gessele, and their current status of being used in quite a few military guns with great success. They also have extensive used with competition guys for a while. The TTU sounds like a good option for a single stage trigger, though, and hopefully they will work well over the long run. They just don't have the "record" Geissele does.
No Ive not. My comments were more about the history of Gessele, and their current status of being used in quite a few military guns with great success. They also have extensive used with competition guys for a while. The TTU sounds like a good option for a single stage trigger, though, and hopefully they will work well over the long run. They just don't have the "record" Geissele does.
Copy. I was hoping you had gotten a chance to try one out a bit and get your opinion on them.
So far, so good, but only time and a lot of rounds will tell how well they will hold up in the long run. I have had good luck with Wilson parts in 1911's and I am hoping those experiences will transfer over to the TTU long term.
I have been impressed to date...
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