View Full Version : Ran my XD hard, got some jams
SpookyPistolero
11-13-10, 20:54
I've made a very concerted effort to shoot only my Glock 19, just to get practiced with one platform. And it's a great gun! But today, for fun, I decided to grab my XD9 for range use.
Luckily, my range had just opened their reactive steel area. Pretty high-tech setup with computer operated poppers, different settings, etc. Been a while since I got to hit steel and I've missed it!
But sadly the XD didn't fare too well. I was running it pretty hard (certainly very hot to the touch up front) and started getting several failures to extract. Basically had a fresh round trying to feed into the empty brass left in the chamber. At least I got to practice my malf drills though! Haha.
So the XD will now be sold, according to my no-tolerance policy of failures with defensive weapons. Que sera, sera.
Business_Casual
11-13-10, 21:58
FFS.
B_C
dieselgeek
11-13-10, 22:02
I'll give you $200 for it.
PM me :sarcastic:
variablebinary
11-13-10, 23:34
XD is not a good gun, so this should not surprise anyone.
davebee456
11-14-10, 00:14
In that price range...
in 9mm i would say get a Glock.
in 45 and 40. i would say get a M&P.
RogerinTPA
11-14-10, 09:32
Who'd a thunk it!:sarcastic: Trade it in for another G19.
Lucky Strike
11-14-10, 20:09
I've had two XD (started with subcompact and then sold to buy a full size) that i've run hard in various defensive handgun classes with no issues but I don't doubt that there are ones with issues. If i didn't trust mine I'd certainly sell it but the thing has been issue free since I've bought it.
That being said I've very jealous that your range has a computer operated reactive steel area.
I had to buy my own steel targets to get my fix of shooting steel....well that and shooting Steel Challenge matches
Tennvol12345
11-14-10, 20:10
XD is not a good gun, so this should not surprise anyone.
I've had no issues my my XD45C and it's had over 20K rounds through it. I did change out mag springs with AGP +10% springs at about the 9-10K mark.
How many rounds through your XD, what type of ammo, etc?
Everyone here seems to agree the MP is far superior to the XD and to be fair I have 3 MP's (9C, 9FS, and 45C) and I've had a dead trigger recently on my 9C. So jams and issues can happen to every gun. I would try and figure out what the issue is before dumping it.
SpookyPistolero
11-14-10, 20:22
I do not feel that the XD is a bad gun, despite this incident. It's also isolated. I bought this gun gently used (based on internal and external wear) and have put only about 4-5K through it myself. It has been otherwise reliable in the past. But unless a problem has an extremely clear-cut cause with a bullet-proof remedy, it's not worth keeping for me. Life's too short to use something you don't trust (and probably would get shorter as a result!). So no, I don't think all XD's are crap and should be melted into goo to make more M&P's.
SpookyPistolero
11-14-10, 20:25
How many rounds through your XD, what type of ammo, etc?
If that was directed at me, I've put probably 4-5K through mine, plus whatever occurred before I purchased it used (definitely less than 2K based on wear). Ammo was all factory 9mm ball. No reloads, no Wolf, etc.
variablebinary
11-14-10, 20:28
I've had no issues my my XD45C and it's had over 20K rounds through it. I did change out mag springs with AGP +10% springs at about the 9-10K mark.
How many rounds through your XD, what type of ammo, etc?
Everyone here seems to agree the MP is far superior to the XD and to be fair I have 3 MP's (9C, 9FS, and 45C) and I've had a dead trigger recently on my 9C. So jams and issues can happen to every gun. I would try and figure out what the issue is before dumping it.
Three friends and I all got XD's after it won HGOTY. All three went tango uniform. The extractor was the culprit. We are talking low round counts as well
The XD is a turd.
Dump it, and get an M&P or a Glock
SpookyPistolero
11-14-10, 20:30
Three friends and I all got XD's after it won HGOTY. All three went tango uniform. The extractor was the culprit. We are talking low round counts as well
The XD is a turd.
Dump it, and get an M&P or a Glock
Interesting! Hadn't heard of that part being a common denominator for failures before. Tis a shame.
Littlelebowski
11-15-10, 09:12
I've made a very concerted effort to shoot only my Glock 19, just to get practiced with one platform. And it's a great gun! But today, for fun, I decided to grab my XD9 for range use.
Luckily, my range had just opened their reactive steel area. Pretty high-tech setup with computer operated poppers, different settings, etc. Been a while since I got to hit steel and I've missed it!
But sadly the XD didn't fare too well. I was running it pretty hard (certainly very hot to the touch up front) and started getting several failures to extract. Basically had a fresh round trying to feed into the empty brass left in the chamber. At least I got to practice my malf drills though! Haha.
So the XD will now be sold, according to my no-tolerance policy of failures with defensive weapons. Que sera, sera.
A wise decision.
rubberneck
11-15-10, 09:53
Three friends and I all got XD's after it won HGOTY. All three went tango uniform. The extractor was the culprit. We are talking low round counts as well
The XD is a turd.
Dump it, and get an M&P or a Glock
It's funny that you mention the M&P because they have had wide spread issues with broken strikers, broken trigger springs and in the 9MM extractor issues. They have addressed one out of the three and Apex took care of the other two but the M&P somehow isn't a turd. I have an M&P and my striker went tango uniform a couple thousand rounds before the trigger spring decided to take a dirt nap. I kept the gun and have no regrets as after the initial issues the thing has been rock solid. Maybe I should have given up on the whole M&P line and told anyone on the interweb who would listen that they were total crap and should be replaced with a H&K or Glock.
BTW I had two XD's that were rock solid but sold them because they were chambered in 40 S&W and wanted to switch everything to 9MM or 45ACP. I wouldn't consider either one of those guns crap and they got the snot shot out of them.
It's funny that you mention the M&P because they have had wide spread issues with broken strikers, broken trigger springs and in the 9MM extractor issues. They have addressed one out of the three and Apex took care of the other two but the M&P somehow isn't a turd. I have an M&P and my striker went tango uniform a couple thousand rounds before the trigger spring decided to take a dirt nap. I kept the gun and have no regrets as after the initial issues the thing has been rock solid. Maybe I should have given up on the whole M&P line and told anyone on the interweb who would listen that they were total crap and should be replaced with a H&K or Glock.
BTW I had two XD's that were rock solid but sold them because they were chambered in 40 S&W and wanted to switch everything to 9MM or 45ACP. I wouldn't consider either one of those guns crap and they got the snot shot out of them.
I believe they fixed the striker a while ago... so that is fine now. No more problems. I've fired mine for only about 1k rounds but no issues at all... flawless
rubberneck
11-15-10, 10:34
I believe they fixed the striker a while ago... so that is fine now. No more problems. I've fired mine for only about 1k rounds but no issues at all... flawless
I said Smith fixed one of the three. That would be the striker issue. I have 6 times the number of rounds through my M&P than you do and it has become a rock solid gun but it wasn't promising at first.
My point is that a lot of posters here hold the M&P in such high esteem that they are seemingly willing to overlook some serious issues with the gun while killing other platforms with similar or lesser issues. The XD's get written off as craptastic junk but the M&P is good to go, warts and all. A little balance would be nice. The XD isn't as bad as some people here love to portray it.
variablebinary
11-15-10, 17:50
My point is that a lot of posters here hold the M&P in such high esteem that they are seemingly willing to overlook some serious issues with the gun while killing other platforms with similar or lesser issues. The XD's get written off as craptastic junk but the M&P is good to go, warts and all. A little balance would be nice. The XD isn't as bad as some people here love to portray it.
The M&P in a short period of time has managed to make a name for itself among civilian shooters, LEO, and now federal agencies. You don't do that unless you've got what it takes to be a contender.
If the M&P were junk, it would be known. It came from a company that was essentially written off by shooters due to garbage like the SIGMA, and supporting AWB's. The M&P turned many people around with sheer performance that was undeniably good. Nothing is perfect, especially the first generation, but the M&P has still progressed in a good way.
Compare that to the XD. It has zero traction outside of the bubba shooters, is known to be turd and is completely unable to shake that perception and reputation because it can't. If it could, it would.
The M&P has become the more reputable firearm for a reason. The XD crowd first claimed Glock fanboys and Gaston business practices kept the the XD stifled. Now that the M&P has also surpassed the XD, what will the excuse be?
rubberneck
11-15-10, 18:16
The M&P in a short period of time has managed to make a name for itself among civilian shooters, LEO, and now federal agencies. You don't do that unless you've got what it takes to be a contender.
If the M&P were junk, it would be known. It came from a company that was essentially written off by shooters due to garbage like the SIGMA, and supporting AWB's. The M&P turned many people around with sheer performance that was undeniably good. Nothing is perfect, especially the first generation, but the M&P has still progressed in a good way.
Compare that to the XD. It has zero traction outside of the bubba shooters, is known to be turd and is completely unable to shake that perception and reputation because it can't. If it could, it would.
The M&P has become the more reputable firearm for a reason. The XD crowd first claimed Glock fanboys and Gaston business practices kept the the XD stifled. Now that the M&P has also surpassed the XD, what will the excuse be?
It's amazing that you could read what I wrote and completely miss the point. I never said that the M&P was junk (if I did I'd be the biggest idiot for keeping the one that gave me so many issues) or that the XD was the pinnacle of performance. What I said is there is a gigantic spectrum between being the gold standard and crap and it would be nice to read for once a fair opinion of the gun without someone declaring them to be worthless crap. In my experience the XD falls solidly in the middle of that range between outstanding and crap. It's a good not great gun.
Out of curiosity have you ever owned an XD? Is so what caliber and how many rounds have you personally put through the platform? I thought the whole concept behind this board was for people to exchange educated experiences with one another. I have shot a friend's XCR, a gun you apparently love, but admittedly I don't own one and my experience is limited. While I have shot them enough to establish that I don't like them I won't state as fact that it's junk and then claim that proof of that is a lack of following in the LEO world and amongst serious minded shooters. Like the XD it falls somewhere between outstanding and crap. Like the XD it's a solid but unspectacular gun and if you have a good one well worth betting your life on.
XD is not a good gun, so this should not surprise anyone.
Good is a relative term, sir. My 14 year old is learning to shoot on an XD 9mm. Both she and my wife like the grip and they are accurate shooters on the platform (My wife and I carry a Glocks). I feel that the XD 9mm is an adequate tool. It's cost effective, and reliable enough for what I'm doing with it.
If you're looking for a gun to hunt terrorists or carry for defense, XD's are probably not for you. The requirement that the grip safety be engaged to actuate the slide is troublesome to me and eliminates it as a serious contender for a combat pistol (DocGKR agrees). As with most guns: Assess your needs, shoot the weapon more than once and decide what its value to you is. Not everyone needs or can afford the top of the line in pistols. If you offered me a very sharp stick or an XD to confront a bad guy in my home, standby because it's going to get loud.
glockkid88
11-15-10, 20:53
Well to be fair I hate xd's but the m&p's that I have owned were total lemons too. I owned a M&p 9 & 45 and they both ran like crap. The 9 lasted about 2k before the locking block cracked and the day I got it back from S&W the striker broke. My advice is to stick with glock and you're gtg!
variablebinary
11-15-10, 21:37
Out of curiosity have you ever owned an XD? Is so what caliber and how many rounds have you personally put through the platform? I thought the whole concept behind this board was for people to exchange educated experiences with one another.
Read post #12.
Good is a relative term, sir. My 14 year old is learning to shoot on an XD 9mm. Both she and my wife like the grip and they are accurate shooters on the platform (My wife and I carry a Glocks). I feel that the XD 9mm is an adequate tool. It's cost effective, and reliable enough for what I'm doing with it.
If you're looking for a gun to hunt terrorists or carry for defense, XD's are probably not for you. The requirement that the grip safety be engaged to actuate the slide is troublesome to me and eliminates it as a serious contender for a combat pistol (DocGKR agrees). As with most guns: Assess your needs, shoot the weapon more than once and decide what its value to you is. Not everyone needs or can afford the top of the line in pistols. If you offered me a very sharp stick or an XD to confront a bad guy in my home, standby because it's going to get loud.
I agree with a lot of this. I think the problem is though, the XD isn't really cost effective. It's really only a few bucks less than a Glock / M&P. The holster and mag carrier are awful and I think that tricks a lot of people.
I agree that its not a bad gun, but its not a great gun. It falls in that grey area inbetween. If SA dropped the price $100+, I don't think it would catch as much crap as it does. It would put it in the arena of Bersa's and what not and dominate that price range.
I've read that when the XD goes down it sometimes requires being cut in half or sent to SA to be fixed. Understand that this site has a lot of serious shooters who won't buy a gun, even with a great warranty, if it can't be fixed in the field.
I believe SW fixed the triggers in the new M&Ps. I also believe the extractor was fixed this year. Everyone knows about the new strikers. Maybe Grant will chime in about the upgrades that SW has made. I just know a new one is very different than the early models in terms of performance.
Thank you for posting this. I'm so sick of the guys (on other sites) who are in the "XD is the best gun in the world because I want a Glock but want to look different and cool" crowd.
I love seeing XDs go down.
At my local pistol club almost everyone uses an XD9--at least, more use one than do not. Almost all of them have had issues that stopped them for the rest of the day, as well. Meanwhile, I have my Glock 17 which I only lubed all year and it didn't malfunction during that time. It's a small sample size, but seeing a number of XD's go down in the course of 1 afternoon was enough to keep me away from them. I also am not a fan of the grip safety, but that is an ergonomic issue.
The XD isn't all that bad, personal preferences aside. They were a heck of a deal back when they were the HS2000 and were around the $199 price point.
The only issue I've seen a fair amount of is cracked striker retaining pins. The roll pin cracks and can lock the pistol up. This usually happens with folks who do a lot of dry firing without a snap cap or similar, but I've also seen it happen in a couple new XD's in a 500rnd training session. The pin needs reinforced with a smaller center roll pin and the issue goes away. Not sure why HS/Springfield hasn't put this solution into regular production though.
The XD(M) is supposed to fix some of these issues. I have no hands on experience with those models right now.
All my high round count experience is with XD's in 9mm, and aside from the roll pin issues, have been good to go. The XD45 on the other hand, I'll say is indeed a big turd. Mine suffered repeated magazine failures and FTF/FTE issues even after warranty service.
variablebinary
11-16-10, 20:41
Not everyone needs or can afford the top of the line in pistols. If you offered me a very sharp stick or an XD to confront a bad guy in my home, standby because it's going to get loud.
Define top of the line?
Also, this isn't a "what you can afford" issue. Glocks are nearly the same price as XD, with maybe a $30-40 difference depending on where you shop.
M&P's are in the same ballpark...
The Beretta 92FS is also on the affordable side.
so why choose an XD which has a dubious track record at best?
I said Smith fixed one of the three. That would be the striker issue. I have 6 times the number of rounds through my M&P than you do and it has become a rock solid gun but it wasn't promising at first.
My point is that a lot of posters here hold the M&P in such high esteem that they are seemingly willing to overlook some serious issues with the gun while killing other platforms with similar or lesser issues. The XD's get written off as craptastic junk but the M&P is good to go, warts and all. A little balance would be nice. The XD isn't as bad as some people here love to portray it.
The striker issue only showed itself when you dry fired a lot. S&W switched strikers some time ago so that is no longer a problem.
I have not seen any broken springs in any M&P to date and the extractor problem with the 9MM M&P is only a problem with Winchester white box ammo. Even with that said, you might only have a failure to extract once every 1,000 rds.
I am running a very early M&P and have zero of the issues you mention.
The XD is a Croation made gun. I do not believe it has ever passed any large agency endurance test and cannot think any large PD or SO that runs them. This is generally referred to as a "clue."
The XD is not the worst pistol out there, but is way behind Glock, M&P, HK, etc.
C4
Define top of the line?
Also, this isn't a "what you can afford" issue. Glocks are nearly the same price as XD, with maybe a $30-40 difference depending on where you shop.
M&P's are in the same ballpark...
The Beretta 92FS is also on the affordable side.
so why choose an XD which has a dubious track record at best?
I agree. You will find the M&P, Glock and XD in about the same price range. That is why they are compared so often and because they are the most popular striker-fired handguns.
The 92SF's are around $100+ more than the listed above in my experience.
I don't really follow XD or XDM pricing, but from what I can gather, the XD sells for around $450 and XDM's go for $579. Gen 3 Glock 19's go for $479 and we sell M&P's for $460.
So I am not sure how anyone could think that the XD or XDM's are a deal or value.
C4
Condition Yellow
11-16-10, 23:10
I bought an XD40 back in '04 and took it to a 4 day handgun class. I quickly sold it and all the accompanying kydex I bought too. The slide & grip safety rusted in 4 days from sweat. During the class I experienced several type 3 malfunctions where the round jammed nose-up against the top of the chamber, and twice I apparently put the slide on incorrectly and locked it up tight. I lost money trading it away and considered myself lucky.
why choose an XD which has a dubious track record at best?
Because I got it cheap ($300), I'm aware of its limitations and it fills a purpose. A gun to plink with. I would not carry this gun or keep it handy for home defense.
Also, this isn't a "what you can afford" issue.
It's whatever issue I choose to talk about. Just like it's whatever issue you chose to make of it. As I said, "good" is a relative term. Good can mean reliable. It can mean affordable. It can mean safe. It can mean any number of things. Some people may find a used XD at a price they can more easily afford. Not everyone buys new guns, sir. I understand you don't like them and won't own one. There's no need to belabor this issue with me and attempt to curtail what I choose to discuss, as I understand your perspective. Mine is different.
I find this humorous. I have a G23 and an XD9. The last time I took my 23 out doing strong and support side shooting it failed to feed 3x in 50rds on support-side shooting. The same amount of shooting with my XD9----zero. I've run my XD9 in several instances of support-side and strong side shooting and it's been 3 years since it had a failure.
I find this humorous. I have a G23 and an XD9. The last time I took my 23 out doing strong and support side shooting it failed to feed 3x in 50rds on support-side shooting. The same amount of shooting with my XD9----zero. I've run my XD9 in several instances of support-side and strong side shooting and it's been 3 years since it had a failure.
One of the things you have to understand about the Glock (especially in .40) is that you have to a locked wrist when shooting it and firm grip on the weapon.
So your malfunctions with your Glock, could be user induced.
C4
One of the things you have to understand about the Glock (especially in .40) is that you have to a locked wrist when shooting it and firm grip on the weapon.
So your malfunctions with your Glock, could be user induced.
C4
I can rest assured I have a firm grip on the weapon. And that's one of the reasons my SA hasn't failed me yet...it doesn't care how I grip it. It fires every time. The last time I decided to "torture" my XD I ran 230rds thru it in 15 minutes. I used Speer GDHP in 124 +P, Hydrashok 147s, Hydrashok 124s, CCI Blazer 115gr and WWB. Zero failures of any kind. The trigger started to get hot during that test. It was also without oil and in 95deg heat. Guess I'll only have to shoot my G23 strong-side only from now on until I can find a way to make it as reliable as my XD9.
rubberneck
11-17-10, 09:59
The striker issue only showed itself when you dry fired a lot. S&W switched strikers some time ago so that is no longer a problem.
I have not seen any broken springs in any M&P to date and the extractor problem with the 9MM M&P is only a problem with Winchester white box ammo. Even with that said, you might only have a failure to extract once every 1,000 rds.
I am running a very early M&P and have zero of the issues you mention.
The XD is a Croation made gun. I do not believe it has ever passed any large agency endurance test and cannot think any large PD or SO that runs them. This is generally referred to as a "clue."
The XD is not the worst pistol out there, but is way behind Glock, M&P, HK, etc.
C4
I never said that the strikers were still a problem, in fact I made it a point to say that they addressed the issue. Also the problems with the extractor extend far beyond White Box. I may not do as much training as you but I have shot, SO/RO hundreds of matches the past 7 years and since their arrival on the scene I have watched enough M&P's shit the bed with non white box ammo to buy that story.
As to the trigger springs I personally know an armorer for a PD of 40 officers that had to replace 6 broken trigger springs the first year their department had the gun. Maybe they got a bad batch of springs but I doubt it. The fact that a smart guy like Randy Lee is now making an improved extractor and a reset assist device isn't because he is bored and looking for things to sell. If the issues were as uncommon as you are trying to play them off as he wouldn't bother as there would be no market for them. The fact that he does is what I would call a clue even if you haven't had the misfortune to experience it first hand.
As you love to point out to other people your M&P constitutes a sample size of one. I owned two XD's that never gave me an issue while my M&P did. You know what that means? Nothing other than my two XD's were really good, or conversely it doesn't mean that my problems with the M&P were universal.
Despite people asserting that the XD's have failed major departments testing I have never once seen anyone post test results to back it up. Regardless the XD is clearly not a major play in the LEO market, but the reasons some major departments use for adopting, or eliminating, a gun have very little to do with the quality of the gun. Often it's the factory support, training and price point that drive those decisions. One thing the XD can't overcome is the nearly reflexive aversion administrators have to single action firearms. While it looks like a clue to you it isn't so clear from where I sit as I don't know how aggressively Springfield has gone after the LEO market. Not wining contracts could be a sign of an inferior design, a lack of financial flexibility or a lack of desire to be major players in that market.
Again I don't understand how anyone could read my first post in this thread and come to the conclusion that I think that M&P's are substandard. I own one. It is my primary carry gun. I like it a lot. It just kills me when the M&P fan boys (not implying you are one) willfully ignore the issues the gun has had the first couple of years while crushing competing products as grossly inferior for experiencing similar issues. Most of the time the people doing the thrash talking about the XD's have never owned one or really wrung one out. I thought one of the missions of this board was for people to share their personal, first hand experiences with equipment. If it is now acceptable for people to offer opinions on equipment that they have little or no personal experience with than it would be nice to know it up front.
As I said earlier, in my personal experience the XD is a decent gun. If I could only have one handgun for the rest of my life it would fall behind the M&P's, H&K's, Sig's and the 9MM Glocks, in line with the CZ's and Beretta's, but ahead of the Taurus's, Ruger's and Para Ord's of the world. It certainly isn't crap and if you handed me one and told me that I would have to defend myself with one I wouldn't feel doomed. YMMV.
I can rest assured I have a firm grip on the weapon. And that's one of the reasons my SA hasn't failed me yet...it doesn't care how I grip it. It fires every time. The last time I decided to "torture" my XD I ran 230rds thru it in 15 minutes. I used Speer GDHP in 124 +P, Hydrashok 147s, Hydrashok 124s, CCI Blazer 115gr and WWB. Zero failures of any kind. The trigger started to get hot during that test. It was also without oil and in 95deg heat. Guess I'll only have to shoot my G23 strong-side only from now on until I can find a way to make it as reliable as my XD9.
Its not really about a firm grip as it is your wrist angle (and whether or not it is locked). I have known 6'5 300lbs weight lifters to "limp wrist" a Glock. So it isn't about strength, but about your shooting technique.
Typically speaking though, the GEN 3 Glock's in 40 are the LEAST reliable of all the Glock's. So if you like the 40, I would go with a GEN 4 version.
If you were to compare apples to apples (Gen 3 Glock in 9mm and an XD in 9mm), the Glock owns the XD ten million times over.
C4
Littlelebowski
11-17-10, 10:05
I can rest assured I have a firm grip on the weapon. And that's one of the reasons my SA hasn't failed me yet...it doesn't care how I grip it. It fires every time. The last time I decided to "torture" my XD I ran 230rds thru it in 15 minutes. I used Speer GDHP in 124 +P, Hydrashok 147s, Hydrashok 124s, CCI Blazer 115gr and WWB. Zero failures of any kind. The trigger started to get hot during that test. It was also without oil and in 95deg heat. Guess I'll only have to shoot my G23 strong-side only from now on until I can find a way to make it as reliable as my XD9.
Well, good. Try concentrating on training with and carrying one weapon then and we'll see you elsewhere.
John_Wayne777
11-17-10, 10:17
As you love to point out to other people your M&P constitutes a sample size of one.
He's an authorized M&P armorer who has sold and serviced hundreds of them.
Despite people asserting that the XD's have failed major departments testing I have never once seen anyone post test results to back it up.
The testing results for handgun contracts to government agencies rarely ever sees the light of day. The records and details of the recent BATFE handgun contract, for example, isn't going to see the light of day because of federal contracting rules and NDA's that are SOP for those sorts of tests. The general public received a glimpse into how one weapon performed only because the company producing it made a serious tactical error in challenging the testing with the GAO. That resulted in a publicly released GAO finding which pretty much destroyed any future for that weapon.
Not wining contracts could be a sign of an inferior design, a lack of financial flexibility or a lack of desire to be major players in that market.
The problem isn't that the XD isn't submitted to trials...it's that when it has been submitted it has performed very poorly in critical dimensions. Their grip safety, for instance, has been documented on the range during LE testing to leave people with a dead man's gun, something no agency can possibly accept without getting their rear-ends sued off. In fact, some tests are specifically written to exclude XD's for precisely that reason. The BATFE contract specifically ruled out anything with a grip activated safety.
It just kills me when the M&P fan boys (not implying you are one) willfully ignore the issues the gun has had the first couple of years while crushing competing products as grossly inferior for experiencing similar issues.
We actually have a bunch of threads here that cover the various issues that have come up with the M&P, just as we do with practically every other handgun ever made. The truth is that nobody makes a perfect handgun. Some, however, have proven themselves to be better tools for serious social purposes than others.
It certainly isn't crap and if you handed me one and told me that I would have to defend myself with one I wouldn't feel doomed. YMMV.
That's really not the question at hand. If the choice is an XD or a sharp stick, nobody is going to pick the sharp stick. That, however, isn't the choice. The choice is between a group of really reliable pistols that, while not perfect, have a proven record of getting the job done most of the time even under demanding circumstances or the XD.
I never said that the strikers were still a problem, in fact I made it a point to say that they addressed the issue. Also the problems with the extractor extend far beyond White Box. I may not do as much training as you but I have shot, SO/RO hundreds of matches the past 7 years and since their arrival on the scene I have watched enough M&P's shit the bed with non white box ammo to buy that story.
I have never seen extraction issues OR heard of extraction issues with anything other than WWB 9mm ammo. So if it is happening with other ammo, it is most likely reloads (using the WWB brass) or crappy ammo (just like the WWB).
As to the trigger springs I personally know an armorer for a PD of 40 officers that had to replace 6 broken trigger springs the first year their department had the gun. Maybe they got a bad batch of springs but I doubt it. The fact that a smart guy like Randy Lee is now making an improved extractor and a reset assist device isn't because he is bored and looking for things to sell. If the issues were as uncommon as you are trying to play them off as he wouldn't bother as there would be no market for them. The fact that he does is what I would call a clue even if you haven't had the misfortune to experience it first hand.
Could be a bad batch. I sell hundreds of M&P's a year and have not see this spring break. With that said, springs are wear items and are supposed to fail at some point.
Just as an FYI, S&W is working on making all the springs in their guns last for at least 50,000 rounds!
Mr. Lee made the 9mm extractor because a lot of your cometition shooters shoot the WWB ammo (as it is really cheap). As a dealer for Apex, I can tell you that I don't sell many of the extractors.
The RAM was built specifically for the lack of reset on the M&P. Not because of a reliability concern.
As you love to point out to other people your M&P constitutes a sample size of one. I owned two XD's that never gave me an issue while my M&P did. You know what that means? Nothing other than my two XD's were really good, or conversely it doesn't mean that my problems with the M&P were universal.
I sell hundreds of M&P's a year. The majority of the my local customers that train with us run M&P's. I have a LARGE sampling that I follow closely. This is coupled with the fact that I attend a lot of training schools and talk to professional instructors about what problems they are seeing.
Every dog has its day. I have known DPMS rifles to run perfectly right out of the box of thousands and thousands of rounds. Miracles do happen all the time. ;)
Despite people asserting that the XD's have failed major departments testing I have never once seen anyone post test results to back it up.
And you are not going too as this info is typically not for public consumption.
Regardless the XD is clearly not a major play in the LEO market, but the reasons some major departments use for adopting, or eliminating, a gun have very little to do with the quality of the gun.
Quality or more specifically, reliability is VERY important when a large SO, PD or Agency look at a service pistol. This is why you won't see any of them run the XD.
Often it's the factory support, training and price point that drive those decisions. One thing the XD can't overcome is the nearly reflexive aversion administrators have to single action firearms. While it looks like a clue to you it isn't so clear from where I sit as I don't know how aggressively Springfield has gone after the LEO market. Not wining contracts could be a sign of an inferior design, a lack of financial flexibility or a lack of desire to be major players in that market.
Cost of the weapon plays a part, but most all the companies play the same game (which is to buy back the departments existing weapons and sell them their guns at their cost).
Make no mistake, EVERY GUN MANUFACTURER wants large LE contracts. So the XD is submitted in just about every pistol eval that goes on (for major buyers).
Again I don't understand how anyone could read my first post in this thread and come to the conclusion that I think that M&P's are substandard. I own one. It is my primary carry gun. I like it a lot. It just kills me when the M&P fan boys (not implying you are one) willfully ignore the issues the gun has had the first couple of years while crushing competing products as grossly inferior for experiencing similar issues. Most of the time the people doing the thrash talking about the XD's have never owned one or really wrung one out. I thought one of the missions of this board was for people to share their personal, first hand experiences with equipment. If it is now acceptable for people to offer opinions on equipment that they have little or no personal experience with than it would be nice to know it up front.
I didn't get that you hated the M&P at all. I just saw a lot of incorrect statements or past history being listed.
As I said earlier, in my personal experience the XD is a decent gun. If I could only have one handgun for the rest of my life it would fall behind the M&P's, H&K's, Sig's and the 9MM Glocks, in line with the CZ's and Beretta's, but ahead of the Taurus's, Ruger's and Para Ord's of the world. It certainly isn't crap and if you handed me one and told me that I would have to defend myself with one I wouldn't feel doomed. YMMV.
The XD is in fact a "decent" gun. It is firmly behind Glock, M&P and HK. Couple that with their price being about the same as the big two, I just cannot figure out why anyone would buy one.
C4
GermanSynergy
11-17-10, 10:25
Funny that the Croatians issue the Beretta 92 and Glock 17/19......
Also, one can find a used Glock 17/19 in the $350-$400 price range, so there's really no excuse for buying a pistol with a.....lackluster track record.
Funny that the Croatians issue the Beretta 92 and Glock 17/19......
Clue? :sarcastic:
C4
G34Shooter
11-17-10, 10:36
One question, why did they name it eXtreme DUTY then?
Not wining contracts could be a sign of an inferior design, a lack of financial flexibility or a lack of desire to be major players in that market.
.
I have never seen extraction issues OR heard of extraction issues with anything other than WWB 9mm ammo.
snip
Mr. Lee made the 9mm extractor because a lot of your cometition shooters shoot the WWB ammo (as it is really cheap). As a dealer for Apex, I can tell you that I don't sell many of the extractors.
Sorry, but my M&P 9 experienced extraction problems with Winchester Ranger, Barnual brass cased ammo, Black hills, and one or two other brands. It might have only happened once every 200-400 rounds but it did happen and did weaken my confidence in the gun.
I have at least 3k rounds since I had the Apex extractor installed and have not had a single failure to extract.
I am just pointing this out. I am not an XD fan.
snip
Sorry, but my M&P 9 experienced extraction problems with Winchester Ranger, Barnual brass cased ammo, and Black hills. It might have only happened once every 200-400 rounds but it did happen and did weaken my confidence in the gun.
I am just pointing this out. I am not an XD fan.
I have at least 3k rounds since I had the Apex extractor installed and have not had a single failure to extract.
Interesting. You might have had a completey FUBARD extractor that was out of spec.
Every so often we see a S&W barrel that just won't hold a group and a extractor that is dimensionally out of spec and really won't work with any ammo.
The APEX Extractor is much better made than the S&W version (that is for sure).
C4
rubberneck
11-17-10, 10:58
The RAM was built specifically for the lack of reset on the M&P. Not because of a reliability concern.
I could have sworn there was a thread on this board from Randy asking if there was any interest in a device that would reset the trigger in case of the failure of the trigger spring. In fact he has a video on his website saying so. I guess he is wrong.
http://www.apextactical.com/blog/index.php/random-apex/apex-ram-additional-benefits/
And you are not going too as this info is typically not for public consumption.
I think you missed my point. People that have a hard on for the XD always use those tests to bolster their claims that the XD is crap. The fact of the matter is that they are full of shit because as you and John Wayne point out they aren't putting those results out there, and they have no clue what those tests found. Beating out designs like the G17 and the M&P is all tall order to begin with. Couple that with the desire by both companies to aggressively pursue that market doesn't mean that the XD wasn't selected because it is crap, but rather it's possible that it lost to out a better design from a company with much deeper pockets.
The XD is in fact a "decent" gun. It is firmly behind Glock, M&P and HK. Couple that with their price being about the same as the big two, I just cannot figure out why anyone would buy one.
Because a lot of people can afford more than one gun. Until the P30 came out there wasn't a handgun made that felt more comfortable in my hand than the XD. Couple that with the fact that both of my guns were very reliable, both were exceedingly accurate even with it's stock barrel and that the triggers can safely and reliably be made to feel like a good 1911 trigger. To me it didn't seem as obvious as it apparently does to you.
The XD is in fact a "decent" gun.
Thank you for confirming the point I was trying to make all along. There were a couple posters in this thread that have never owned or extensively shoot one who stated in no uncertain terms that the XD's were total crap. They aren't. I still don't understand why people think it's appropriate to state an opinion as fact on a product the have no experience with. Seems to me that sort of behavior is what differentiates this board from the other one. I could be wrong.
I could have sworn there was a thread on this board from Randy asking if there was any interest in a device that would reset the trigger in case of the failure of the trigger spring. In fact he has a video on his website saying so. I guess he is wrong.
That is a side benefit. Not the main reason.
I think you missed my point. People that have a hard on for the XD always use those tests to bolster their claims that the XD is crap. The fact of the matter is that they are full of shit because as you and John Wayne point out they aren't putting those results out there, and they have no clue what those tests found. Beating out designs like the G17 and the M&P is all tall order to begin with. Couple that with the desire by both companies to aggressively pursue that market doesn't mean that the XD wasn't selected because it is crap, but rather it's possible that it lost to out a better design from a company with much deeper pockets.
Some DO hear the results of the tests. There are many people out there that have access to sensitive info.
With that said, the XD is generally ruled out in selections because of some of its design features. The ones that aren't are generally removed because they did not survive the durability tests.
Because a lot of people can afford more than one gun. Until the P30 came out there wasn't a handgun made that felt more comfortable in my hand than the XD. Couple that with the fact that both of my guns were very reliable, both were exceedingly accurate even with it's stock barrel and that the triggers can safely and reliably be made to feel like a good 1911 trigger. To me it didn't seem as obvious as it apparently does to you.
I understand about owning more than one gun. A lot of people don't have the money for an extra one though and end up with the XD. This is what we fail to understand.
Thank you for confirming the point I was trying to make all along. There were a couple posters in this thread that have never owned or extensively shoot one who stated in no uncertain terms that the XD's were total crap. They aren't. I still don't understand why people think it's appropriate to state an opinion as fact on a product the have no experience with. Seems to me that sort of behavior is what differentiates this board from the other one. I could be wrong.
Total crap? Nope. That list is reserved for the likes of the Hi-point pistol. With that said, many on this forum bet their lives on the gun they carry. So for them, they are total crap (as they cannot even comprehend owning one).
At the end of the day, all that matters is that you are happy with said weapon. If it fits your needs, then all is good.
C4
Interesting. You might have had a completey FUBARD extractor that was out of spec.
Yeah, that's me: Mr. FUBARD.:(
Yeah, that's me: Mr. FUBARD.:(
LOL, no not you.
C4
One question, why did they name it eXtreme DUTY then?
Marketing.
I own two, xd9sc and a xd45c. Ran great for the first 1k. I've now had multiple FTF and FTE on both platforms.
I have lost all confidence in these firearms...period.
Selling both and going to a g17 or HK p30.
I consider myself educated on this subject now and staying in my lane.
SkyLine out.
Magic_Salad0892
11-20-10, 17:40
I have many reasons for hating the XD series.
1 - FUBARD extractor - and possibly even extractor design.
2 - I have seen dirt get into the striker opening in the rear of the slide - and stop the gun.
3 - No armorer support, I've never even seen a dealer sell springs. If it breaks it goes to the factory.
4 - Terrible magazines. Unreliable, and you're not supposed to load them to the advertised capacity.
5 - Insanely expensive parts that are near unobtainable.
6 - Backstrap safety. If I won't carry the time tested 1911 because of this, why would the HS2000... sorry XD be an exception?
7 - Terrible trigger.
8 - Magazine release is hard to actuate. Especially with a full magazine.
9 - I've seen premature failure of the springs - consistently. (Under 5k service life.)
10 - High bore axis.
11 - I've heard a lot of reports of it not liking NATO pressure ammo.
I may not keep track of hundreds of them, but people I shoot with, and people at the range tell me things like this all the time.
I will never bet my life on it.
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