View Full Version : Any love for the Browning Hi-Power
I recently got turned onto them and picked up a mint 2002 model. Put a set of Spegel grips on it as soon as I got it home. While it's a looker, I don't know how I'm going to get along with the blued finish, being my first all steel pistol. Going to shoot it for the first time tomorrow.
Anyone else own one - post up some pics and/or opinions of the BHP.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee238/number9st/Guns/IMG_5706_s.jpg
I'd love for the price of a new one to be less so I could purchase one!
For the finish, use a soft paint brush to lightly wet the the exterior with quality oil (for storage) and wipe dry for shooting. Then reoil to store again (after cleaning of course). Was given an Astra A80 (blued) with some minor pitting 34 years ago. Have always done this and it has not gotten any worse.
I've got one, that I like a lot. The only problem I have with it, is that I don't have another one.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g111/Trisagion/HP_SwissArmy_Left_web.jpg
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On this site, there is a lot of love for the Browning Hi-Power, but most guys don't know it because they have redirected that "love" into Glocks, SIGs, M&P's, etc.
If you read a good description of almost every modern pistol in the last 50-years, it is stated that they have a "...modified Browning design..." or "...Browning-type action..." which refers to the Browning Hi-Power. So, they are all based on the Hi-Power to some degree.
They are great guns.
Don't hate... :)
.
ThirdWatcher
11-14-10, 07:20
The Browning Hi-Power is a fine pistol... do you own another pistol that's as pretty as your BHP? I've got one and it's absolutely beautiful, and definitely 'old school'. ;)
Business_Casual
11-14-10, 07:51
.
On this site, there is a lot of love for the Browning Hi-Power, but most guys don't know it because they have redirected that "love" into Glocks, SIGs, M&P's, etc.
If you read a good description of almost every modern pistol in the last 50-years, it is stated that they have a "...modified Browning design..." or "...Browning-type action..." which refers to the Browning Hi-Power. So, they are all based on the Hi-Power to some degree.
They are great guns.
Don't hate... :)
.
Actually that refers to the method of locking and unlocking the barrel in the slide - look at a Luger or a Mauser to see the difference.
Browning Hi Power - no thank you, but to each his own.
B_C
i wish mine was blued like y'alls
http://s-seriesforum.com/albums/album533/BHP_1.sized.jpg
CaracalUSA
11-14-10, 08:08
I've got a two tone with night sights. It fits my hand better than ANY other pistol. It's a great shooter too. Little big for CC on me but one of my all time favorites!
Rosco Benson
11-14-10, 08:10
The P-35 is a good pistol. It comes with a magazine "safety", but this is fairly easy to remove. The trigger has a long and indistinct reset. This, as well as the pull weight, can be addressed to a degree by a good pistolsmith. However, the trigger will never measure up to a good 1911 trigger.
The early pistols featured a tiny and difficult to use thumb safety. This has been addressed to some degree in more current production. The current "banana-shaped" ambi is okay. Better still is the unit Novak uses (which looks to be the old Hoag design) or some of the custom welded-up units from Yost and others.
The P-35 also can bite the hand that feeds it. A user who has meaty hands and who uses a proper high grip will often find the hammer spur beating a hole into the web of his hand with each shot. One can also have flesh pinched between the base of the hammer and the grip tang. In some cases, a malfunction can be induced wherein the hammer hitting the web of the hand causes the sear to miss the full-cock notch and the hammer follows to half-cock. This is generally only seen in pistols with tuned triggers, wherein the sear/hammer engagement has been reduced and the sear spring's pressure on the sear has been lessened. This malfunction is especially bad in that the P-35's thumb safety can be engaged with the hammer at half-cock. Thus, one could engage a threat, have the hammer-drop to half-cock, and then engage the thumb safety to continue moving through the danger area, with a pistol that feels like it is ready for use, but is not. Threat #2 pops up, you bring the pistol up for a flash sight picture, thumbing down the thumb safety, press the trigger, and nothing. Think you'll sort that out before the threat sorts you out? Unlikely.
The hammer/tang problem is not insurmountable. Beavertails can be welded up onto the frame. A simpler approach is just to shorten the hammer's spur significantly. Also, if one gets pinched by the base of the hammer, hogging out the back of the hammer (Novak's "no bite" mod) will address this.
As number9xd noted, the Spegel stocks for the P-35 feel and look great. They can be a bit fragile, because of their thinness. Spegel sometimes makes the same stocks from Delrin. They're not as pretty, but are top choice for a hard-use P-35.
It takes some work to address the P-35's shortcomings, but once they're addressed it is a nice pistol. Given that one can get a box-stock G17 and have a fine combat 9mm, it boils down to whether one just wants a P-35 (I have 2 ;)).
Rosco
Rosco Benson
11-14-10, 08:28
FWIW, there's a well-appointed P-35 for sale currently here..
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=66893
Not mine, but pretty and pertinent to the discussion.
Rosco
I recently got a Mark 1* Canadian Inglis with the 500m tangent rear sight and posted some pictures in a thread on BHP's. I think mine is from around the 1940's but I know very little about these tbh. After shooting it a few times with some friends we were amazed at the accuracy we could get out of this pistol. The tangent rear sight works good and with adjusting the tangent rear sight we could make hits on man size targets with ease at long distance.
Another BHP thread (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=779167)
I was running it pretty hard like I do my carry guns(glock19/26) the first day I took it out and it ran great till I got it past 200rds then it had feed issues. I didn't have extra lube on me and we just got done hiking/varmint hunting in the desert so it was dusty to say the least before I started shooting. I'm taking it easier on it now do it being a recreation gun for me. I just got new springs to put in it so we'll see how it does in the future.
One of my long time friends is hardcore on one type of pistol only when it comes to pistols and this is the first pistol out of our shooting group that he really likes outside of the only platform he likes. I left the type out so the thread doesn't get dog piled with platform compares. I told him I'll probably sell it at some point do to not really needing a recreation gun and he told me I need my head examined.
My first handgun in 1969. Shot it until the front sight fell of, without a hitch. Traded it and regretted it for years. Just this year I came across an unfired 69. I just had to have it, so I do.
I also have one I sent to Cyl, & Slide and it runs great. Just a little longer trigger reset than my 1911 Wilson but accurate and smooth.
A little heavier than the Poly guns but carries well, or better, IWB as any gun I own.
I bought a BHP a couple of years ago solely based on it's nice looks and history. I wanted to have one just for collecting. It does shoot very well and I never experienced any kind of malfunction with this gun, but it never quite fit my hands very well, the grip always felt too small for me and I didn't like the smallish safety on mine. So I decided to give it to my brother who just recently started shooting and always like my HP.
http://i40.servimg.com/u/f40/11/50/35/28/browni10.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=117&u=11503528)
http://i40.servimg.com/u/f40/11/50/35/28/9mm10.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=118&u=11503528)
http://i80.servimg.com/u/f80/11/50/35/28/bhp410.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=196&u=11503528)
http://i80.servimg.com/u/f80/11/50/35/28/bhp310.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=194&u=11503528)
I really like the BHP but after I buy one, I don't shoot or carry it very much. I get them "PRETTIED" up and I just look at them. Next one, I am leaving it alone and then shoot the C--- out of it! Great Gun!
ChicagoTex
11-14-10, 13:04
BHPs, like 1911s, are pretty and have a certain mystique for many shooters, but ultimately require too much time and money in modification and hand-massaging to make them adequate combat weapons.
In short, if you don't lust for one, they're a pretty crappy way to go. You can have a better weapon for far less money and effort.
So no, no BHP love from me. Especially since I consider the 1911's ergonomics to be vastly superior.
I'm a Glock/SIG/H&K/Walther man.
Ya gotta bob the hammer; your right hand will love you for it.
Yeah as history points out, they're crappy combat weapons
I'd like to own a really nice Hi-Power one day, but it will never become my "go-to" defense handgun. There are far better pistols available for that role.
I think most people that like handguns have a soft spot for the P35. They point well and shoot like a dream. Are they as reliable as the Glock, M&P, or HK, of course not, but they were not designed in 1935 either. I sometimes wish I still had mine but at the same time it was nothing but a safe queen since I carry my M&P40.
glockkid88
11-14-10, 18:36
My first handgun was a Charles Daly HP. It was a good pistol for the most part although the finish was the worst I have ever seen on a gun. It was completely reliable but was not very accurate. 5 shot groups and 25 are usually around 5 inches. I believe a lot of this is the fact that it has xs sights on it however. I had my gunsmith refinish it and clean up the magazine safety and the trigger and now it shoots a little better. I wound up graduating to glocks because they are more durable and I can shoot them much better. I gave the HP to my Dad for a gift and he carries it everyday with a lot of pride. He absolutely hates polymer pistols.
crusader377
11-14-10, 21:11
BHPs, like 1911s, are pretty and have a certain mystique for many shooters, but ultimately require too much time and money in modification and hand-massaging to make them adequate combat weapons.
In short, if you don't lust for one, they're a pretty crappy way to go. You can have a better weapon for far less money and effort.
So no, no BHP love from me. Especially since I consider the 1911's ergonomics to be vastly superior.
I'm a Glock/SIG/H&K/Walther man.
I would have to disagree with this. I have had great experience with the BHP MK III. It has been very reliable over the 9,000 to 10,000 rounds that I have fired throught it only 2 or 3 FTFs which were magazine related. It will fire pretty much any ammo out their including some very hard primed surplus that was giving a friend of mines glock alot of problems. It is accurate, quick handling and low maintenence. The only downside is that they are relatively hard to find and have become more expensive in the last few years.
Business_Casual
11-14-10, 21:45
The only downside is that they are relatively hard to find and have become more expensive in the last few years.
Yeah, and they were designed in 1935 and use materials from 1935.
If you had to go to work 25 miles away every day, would you drive this with manual steering, drum brakes and an AM radio:
http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/2833/111319863b6031dbade.jpg (http://img245.imageshack.us/i/111319863b6031dbade.jpg/)
Or would you take this:
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/6425/2008bmw128i001.jpg (http://img242.imageshack.us/i/2008bmw128i001.jpg/)
With air bags, anti-lock brakes and an FM radio.
Point is, technology moves on and newer, more durable options exist.
But this is clearly a P-35 wank fest, so have at it.
B_C
ChicagoTex
11-14-10, 21:47
In the case of the BHP, I'm not just talking about reliability. But also things like safeties, sights, and trigger work, not to mention replacing/reworking that god-forsaken hammer.
An out of the box BHP usually runs (which is not something that can necessarily be said of most factory 1911s), but it still suffers in a lot of areas IMO.
Not a good comparison. both cars in similar condition, the 1935 is more valuable.
Well I ran about 75 rounds through the Hi-Power today, back to back with the M&P with G&R APEX setup. I LIKE IT. Very nice handling, points well, minimal recoil and no hammer bite. The trigger does suck compared to the M&P. Too heavy and gritty. Despite the trigger I was able to get very good accuracy out of it and I can imagine it would only get better with the trigger issue addressed. It ate 115gr Blazer Brass and 147gr HST equally well.
I wanted to shoot a lot more but it is the first weekend of deer season and I know some of the dudes in the woods that's been living for this week all year probably wouldn't think twice to put me in the crosshairs if that big buck they've been scouting got spooked off by my gunshots.
That dang nice blued finish has got me in a twist though. I know it wouldn't take kindly to being carried and used like my polymer pistols do. Maybe I'll sell off the XD9 Tactical and pick up one of the Israeli surplus units and have it parked or a epoxy finish MKIII .... Or just use this one and let it develop character.
....
Business_Casual
11-14-10, 22:04
Not a good comparison. both cars in similar condition, the 1935 is more valuable.
Valuable. Clearly a key consideration to gun fighters who reside in graveyards. We should all carry Luger P08s in 45 ACP then.
Here's one Ford on Ebay for $35 grand:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ford-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQitemZ290496840539QQptZUSQ5fCarsQ5fTrucks
Please show me the guy driving out of a BMW dealer with a new coupe for very much less...
B_C
Yeah, and they were designed in 1935 and use materials from 1935.
If you had to go to work 25 miles away every day, would you drive this with manual steering, drum brakes and an AM radio:
http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/2833/111319863b6031dbade.jpg (http://img245.imageshack.us/i/111319863b6031dbade.jpg/)
B_C
Well, I do like to drive this around on the weekends. :)
I get your point though.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee238/number9st/Deuce/Deuce_001.jpg
Sorry for the double tap there. Editing a post on this iPhone doesn't work well. I'll clean it up when I get on the pc.
ThirdWatcher
11-15-10, 00:58
I fired a BHP several years ago, but got bit by the hammer so I stayed away from them until last year. I bought an used BHP with a rowel hammer (and magazine safety removed) last year and I would have no problem using it for self defense.
As for the finish, a little honest wear and tear adds character IMO.
Yeah, and they were designed in 1935 and use materials from 1935.
.........B_C
=============================
With that logic, a 1935 High-Power must be leaps and bounds better than a gun designed (pretty much by the same guy) in 1911???
.
ChicagoTex
11-15-10, 05:51
1. The BHP does indeed represent several major improvements over the 1911 design.
2. Comparing the difference of 24 years versus the difference of 50 years or more is fundamentally disingenuous
3. Technology generally ramps up exponentially (and certainly has for the last 3 or 4 centuries at minimum), so I'd say the difference between 2000 and 2010 alone easily represents as much innovation as took place between 1911 and 1935. And finally, this stuff goes in bursts, so trying to make any comparison on a static timeline (whether linear or exponential) is silly anyway.
The fact of the matter is BC's point is apt. Just because someone likes their Hi-Power doesn't mean it's competetive with the bulk of modern combat handguns on the market today on any objective level.
1911 people have recognized this reality for decades, I have no idea why BHP fans insist on fighting it so much.
I love my four Hi-Powers, slim, trim, reliable and accurate.
Littlelebowski
11-15-10, 08:51
1
1911 people have recognized this reality for decades
Most 1911 folks I know aren't really big on acknowledging reality when it comes to their 1911s.
crusader377
11-15-10, 10:06
Yeah, and they were designed in 1935 and use materials from 1935.
If you had to go to work 25 miles away every day, would you drive this with manual steering, drum brakes and an AM radio:
http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/2833/111319863b6031dbade.jpg (http://img245.imageshack.us/i/111319863b6031dbade.jpg/)
Or would you take this:
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/6425/2008bmw128i001.jpg (http://img242.imageshack.us/i/2008bmw128i001.jpg/)
With air bags, anti-lock brakes and an FM radio.
Point is, technology moves on and newer, more durable options exist.
But this is clearly a P-35 wank fest, so have at it.
B_C
Don't think that is a valid comparison since that automobile technology has advanced far more in the last 75 years than handgun technology. Also, the current production BHPs do use modern metallurical processes and are equal to any other steel frame pistols out there.
Most 1911 folks I know aren't really big on acknowledging reality when it comes to their 1911s.
=================================
Boy, ain't that a lot of truth in one sentence.
Don't hate.... :)
.
I am on my 3rd BHP. The 1st was a stock MK3, the 2nd a custom MK3 and my current one is a Practical model. Something about them keeps drawing me back. I dont carry it or shoot it much but I still love the way it feels in my hand. I will be keeping this one in my collection if for no other reason than nostalgia.
Littlelebowski
11-15-10, 13:19
The last discussion we had on the BHP had a few mentions of parts breakages around 20K rds.
John_Wayne777
11-15-10, 16:57
The hi-power is, in my opinion, one of the best looking handguns ever made. In the later versions they can run with HP ammo with good reliability.
...but:
They are about as ergonomic as a cheese grater and they tend to be more finicky about cleaning and lubrication than more modern designs. The triggers on them are truly awful. They benefit tremendously from the attention of a good gunsmith. A well done HP is a thing of real beauty, but also tends to be quite expensive. I got rid of my hi-power to help fund the purchase of a couple of P30 pistols from H&K. I fired maybe thirty rounds through my Belgian made pistol in the years that I owned it. Pretty to look at but ultimately not a pistol I could use for any practical purpose without significant investment.
NMBigfoot02
11-15-10, 17:51
The phrase "They don't make em the way they used to" is true; they make them better. At least when it comes to firearms.
The BHP was the standard and original "Wonder Nine" for many years after it's introduction, but that's because there was nothing better at the time. These days, you're far better off choosing a proven modern design than running the gold medalist of yesteryear.
No love? The last thread was like a circle jerk for them.
I owned three over the years and let them all go. The last was a newer FN marked SA(?), same as a MKIII just not Browning marked. Ok enough, and I was gonna send it to Novak for the HD package, but figured for the $500 I could just buy a Glock, and get a rail to boot. In the end I traded it to a friend for on OD framed G19, we both think we got the better of the deal.
Funny how everyone complains about the M&P trigger, I always thought the BHP was far far worse.
Many of its shortcoming have been listed here and the other thread. It would be nice to have a discussion like this w/o getting into:
Looks
Emotion
Alleged combat record
Elegance
History( yea, the history is they are history)
Thats not to say they were not and are not good guns, and you can't defend yourself with one, but really when you have a Glock and M&P available for less money, Why?
Bob
Not sure I'd put the BMW up there as the most realiable...
Yes these designs are dated but to say they were/are "crappy" combat handguns doesn't ring true. Besides, just how many rounds should a handgun be able to fire to make it "worthy"?
As to triggers, what out of the box gun these days does have a "good" trigger?
ChicagoTex
11-15-10, 19:42
As to triggers, what out of the box gun these days does have a "good" trigger?
I considered stock Glock, SIG, Beretta, and Walther triggers quite good. Non-LEM H&Ks and stock M&Ps are admittedly borderline.
Business_Casual
11-15-10, 19:58
I love all this talk about triggers - as if many of us could make use of a match trigger or as if it is even needed to obtain combat accuracy at typical ranges.
The LAV, Kyle DeFoor and Mr. Hackathorn score 10 ring hit after hit with crappy "stock" triggers day after day and week after week.
B_C
John_Wayne777
11-16-10, 06:47
As to triggers, what out of the box gun these days does have a "good" trigger?
It's not about having a "good" trigger, it's about coming from the box with a trigger that is so stiff and heavy that it becomes an impediment to actually hitting the target. People do get a bit fruity over triggers, but that's not to say that any complaint about triggers is without merit. The stock trigger on every MK-III version Hi-Power I've ever tried has sucked on a truly epic level.
The double action trigger on a stock Beretta 92 or Sig P22x or 3rd Generation S&W handgun is much easier to deal with than the stock trigger on any MK-III HP I've ever tried.
NMBigfoot02
11-16-10, 07:52
It's not about having a "good" trigger, it's about coming from the box with a trigger that is so stiff and heavy that it becomes an impediment to actually hitting the target. People do get a bit fruity over triggers, but that's not to say that any complaint about triggers is without merit. The stock trigger on every MK-III version Hi-Power I've ever tried has sucked on a truly epic level.
The double action trigger on a stock Beretta 92 or Sig P22x or 3rd Generation S&W handgun is much easier to deal with than the stock trigger on any MK-III HP I've ever tried.
FWIW, the magazine disconnect (the source of the BHP's crappy stock trigger) is easily removed.
Matt Edwards
11-16-10, 08:30
Bob,
Larry Vickers put it best during a 1911 operator's class. During one of the general question periods, a shooter asked "what about the BHP?"
LAV's answer was classic "Why?"
Then he discussed some of the points you made. IE you can get a Glock 19, you have more ammo, it's more durable/reliable, you can add a light with no modification AND it's less money...
I'm not saying it's a bad gun and I'm not saying that guys didn't use it or that it's not effective.
However, for me, in this day and age...why?
Thomas M-4
11-16-10, 08:47
It's not about having a "good" trigger, it's about coming from the box with a trigger that is so stiff and heavy that it becomes an impediment to actually hitting the target. People do get a bit fruity over triggers, but that's not to say that any complaint about triggers is without merit. The stock trigger on every MK-III version Hi-Power I've ever tried has sucked on a truly epic level.
The double action trigger on a stock Beretta 92 or Sig P22x or 3rd Generation S&W handgun is much easier to deal with than the stock trigger on any MK-III HP I've ever tried.
I have had 2 Argentina BHP clone's every time you change mags the trigger pull changes with the mags :laugh: The magazine safety is a joke and needs to tossed at first chance. A Browning HP is still on my must get list along with a trip to the smith to remove the magazine safety. I never had a problem with the clones feeding HP ammo tho I didn't try every HP available on the market at that time. The thumb safety is a little small side but they do make larger thumb safety's to.
I cant remember how a did it. It has been a few years since I tried it but I bypassed the magazine safety just to see how the trigger pull changed when the mag safety wasn't interfering with the pull. Complete night and day difference all you feel is the sear where has before you cold feel every bump in the magazine tube.
Thomas M-4
11-16-10, 09:08
Bob,
Larry Vickers put it best during a 1911 operator's class. During one of the general question periods, a shooter asked "what about the BHP?"
LAV's answer was classic "Why?"
Then he discussed some of the points you made. IE you can get a Glock 19, you have more ammo, it's more durable/reliable, you can add a light with no modification AND it's less money...
I'm not saying it's a bad gun and I'm not saying that guys didn't use it or that it's not effective.
However, for me, in this day and age...why?
Well that's just ignorant he could have said the same about the 1911:rolleyes:
Well that's just ignorant he could have said the same about the 1911:rolleyes:
Yea. LAV's ignorant:rolleyes:
Have you heard what he says about 1911's?
Bob
Thomas M-4
11-16-10, 09:15
Yea. LAV's ignorant:rolleyes:
Have you heard what he says about 1911's?
Bob
What would that be?
Take a class and ask him.
Bob
Thomas M-4
11-16-10, 10:26
Take a class and ask him.
Bob
WoW :sarcastic:
John_Wayne777
11-16-10, 10:42
Thomas: You're wandering out of your lane here.
Thomas M-4
11-16-10, 11:09
Thomas: You're wandering out of your lane here.
I will try to clarify my position. 1st I admire LAV for his a accomplishments and for his product developments I own a few my self. And will continue to do so.
I do wonder about the BHP statement?
TurretGunner
11-16-10, 12:34
What are the thoughts on FEG clones.....?
Business_Casual
11-16-10, 12:36
What are the thoughts on FEG clones.....?
CRAP.
B_C
crusader377
11-16-10, 13:25
I've always been a big fan of the BHP and it is one of my favorite handguns. I think it is a better pistol than some of the other posters give it credit. Also, although the trigger isn't great I have found my to be more the capable of very good accuracy both at speed and for slower more deliberate shooting.
I do wonder about the BHP statement?
That said, after owning the M&P for a year now, I think a good modern design like the M&P, Glock 19, etc... are excellent pistols that are considerably less expensive than a BHP and better suited for most shooters for a self-defense pistol. They are a much better value for the money. For a purely rational handgun purchase, these modern designs make much more sense than a BHP or M1911 for that matter. However, not all of our purchases have to be rational;) and the BHP will always be a valued pistol in my collection as will the M1911.
Thomas M-4
11-16-10, 13:42
I've always been a big fan of the BHP and it is one of my favorite handguns. I think it is a better pistol than some of the other posters give it credit. Also, although the trigger isn't great I have found my to be more the capable of very good accuracy both at speed and for slower more deliberate shooting.
That said, after owning the M&P for a year now, I think a good modern design like the M&P, Glock 19, etc... are excellent pistols that are considerably less expensive than a BHP and better suited for most shooters for a self-defense pistol. They are a much better value for the money. For a purely rational handgun purchase, these modern designs make much more sense than a BHP or M1911 for that matter. However, not all of our purchases have to be rational;) and the BHP will always be a valued pistol in my collection as will the M1911.
I by no means ,mean that the BHP is superior than a Glock or M&P.
I have owned both Glock and M&P and would take either if worst came to worst but wouldn't feel screwed if all I had was the BHP.
It is what it is.
To be fair, many of the accolades heaped upon the BHP(& the 1911), are a bit over the top, so there's probably more then a bit of push back on that end.
I, for one, never said it was a bad gun, only that there are better choices for a pure fighting gun these days. And, that perhaps, its a bit overrated by some.
As for LAV, like I said, you can ask him, he posts here on occasion, you can e-mail him, take a class, or read some of the AAR's here and at other forums on his class's.
Not speaking for him, but I get the distinct impression, he does not recommend 1911's as much as most people think.
Why? often comes up w/ both these guns, and its rarely answered satisfactorily. Romance, nostalgia & dead nazi's dont count.
Bob
I always take one of my BHPs with me where ever I go, even as a primary/backup while hunting.
With handloaded +P Hornady XTP bullets they have killed many large hogs over the decades.
http://www.phossil.com/thom/Hogzilla.jpg
Thomas M-4
11-16-10, 14:47
What are the thoughts on FEG clones.....?
The 2 that I bought came out of a pawn shop at least 8 yrs ago.
I well tell you what I can remember Inside the slide had tool marks all the small parts had tool marks feed ramps had tool marks the camber looked little rough the springs wear cheap I had 1mag the spring went out fairly quickly and wouldn't lock the slide back the other one worked fine for the 3000+ rounds that I had it mostly WWB The other one a buddy bought off of me fairly quickly think maybe I got 300 rounds through it before he got it. He didn't shoot has much as me but the last time I heard a few yrs ago mind you it was still running. I ended up polishing the chamber and feed ramp on the one I kept. Eventually I guy I went to college finally talked me into selling it. I wouldn't buy one to take to war. If you want something to tinker with then. The trigger was horrible the way that the mag safety works is different than say the way that an M&P mag safety works. The M&P will engage or disengage the the trigger mechanism the BHP Or the FEG has a sliding bar that is part of the mechanism it rubs against the mag so every mag feels slightly different even more so if you grease the spot that it rubs against or drop the the mag in the dirt. The biggest hate and for good reason comes from that mag safety.
The BHP has always appealed to me although it doesn't fit my hand well and I don't shoot them well either. This now sold, former safe queen is early eighties vintage.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d172/Hershel_Van/HP.jpg
Matt Edwards
11-16-10, 16:40
Well that's just ignorant he could have said the same about the 1911:rolleyes:
In a way, he does.;)
Again, the BHP is not a bad gun and I'm not saying it is. In many ways, it paved the way. Still, a spade is a spade.
Like has been stated, I certainly won't put words in Mr. Vickers mouth, and that was not my intention. Having trained with him, I'm just sharing what I heard. Larry is rarely ambiguous. He pretty much says what he means. You can take it to the bank and cash it. He may well get on here and say I'm out in left field. However, I still stand behind the comment I made before.
If you are down with the BHP, rock out with your...well...BHP out.
Moose-Knuckle
11-16-10, 17:00
I was given a BHP Practical in .40 S&W. Only shot it once and have since decided to sell it. Not a big fan of the SA and I've never been into the .40 S&W. I have down sized to 9mm GLOCKs arcross the bored for my needs. There are BHP collectors/enthusiasts so I could use their money and they can use my HP.
With that said, I have a lot of respect for this gun. The HP was the first high capacity combat pistol. The fact that Her Majesty's SAS utilized it for as long as they did speaks volumes.
It's not about having a "good" trigger, it's about coming from the box with a trigger that is so stiff and heavy that it becomes an impediment to actually hitting the target. People do get a bit fruity over triggers, but that's not to say that any complaint about triggers is without merit. The stock trigger on every MK-III version Hi-Power I've ever tried has sucked on a truly epic level.
The double action trigger on a stock Beretta 92 or Sig P22x or 3rd Generation S&W handgun is much easier to deal with than the stock trigger on any MK-III HP I've ever tried.
Interesting how opinions vary. I much prefer the trigger on my stock MkIII to the M9 or Sig. At least it was the same every pull.
Maybe I 've just gotten to a point where I don't really expect a whole lot when it comes to out-of-the-box triggers.
Thomas M-4
11-16-10, 17:31
To be fair, many of the accolades heaped upon the BHP(& the 1911), are a bit over the top, so there's probably more then a bit of push back on that end.
I, for one, never said it was a bad gun, only that there are better choices for a pure fighting gun these days. And, that perhaps, its a bit overrated by some.
As for LAV, like I said, you can ask him, he posts here on occasion, you can e-mail him, take a class, or read some of the AAR's here and at other forums on his class's.
Not speaking for him, but I get the distinct impression, he does not recommend 1911's as much as most people think.
Why? often comes up w/ both these guns, and its rarely answered satisfactorily. Romance, nostalgia & dead nazi's dont count.
Bob
Oh yea for the same amount of money you would be better severed by Glock or M&P. I have no illusions of anything else.
It is a dated design for sure but dated doesn't mean useless just means there a better options available .
ChicagoTex
11-16-10, 21:30
I much prefer the trigger on my stock MkIII to the M9 or Sig. At least it was the same every pull.
Would these M9s and SIGs (presumably M11s) that you've sampled be under the neglectful care of Uncle Sam?
Would these M9s and SIGs (presumably M11s) that you've sampled be under the neglectful care of Uncle Sam?
Both...you have some experience with the "neglectful care of uncle sam" as you call it? If so, I'd be interested to know what you mean.
Thanks
Jay Cunningham
11-16-10, 21:42
I heard Larry say just this past weekend that the 1911 should be relegated to the same category as cowboy guns.
Does that help anyone in this thread?
ChicagoTex
11-16-10, 21:45
Both...you have some experience with the "neglectful care of uncle sam" as you call it? If so, I'd be interested to know what you mean.
Thanks
Not I, personally, but the contrast between well-maintained privately owned examples and armory SIGs and Berettas are extremely well-documented.
Basically military issue handguns tend not to see maintenance/part replacement until they break - one of the most obvious areas this comes up in is with an inconsistent, crappy trigger.
Do yourself a huge favor and try some new 92FSs and P228s/P229s at your local gun shop and experience the difference for yourself - I guarantee you'll be amazed.
bleaman225
11-16-10, 21:45
I heard Larry say just this past weekend that the 1911 should be relegated to the same category as cowboy guns.
Does that help anyone in this thread?
Precisely why mine stayed in the range bag for the whole class.
Not I, personally, but the contrast between well-maintained privately owned examples and armory SIGs and Berettas are extremely well-documented.
Basically military issue handguns tend not to see maintenance/part replacement until they break - one of the most obvious areas this comes up in is with an inconsistent, crappy trigger.
Do yourself a huge favor and try some new 92FSs and P228s/P229s at your local gun shop and experience the difference for yourself - I guarantee you'll be amazed.
Sorry I wasn't clear in my last post. When I said "both" I meant both versions. Neither of which I felt had a better trigger than the BHP.
Thanks for bringing me up to speed on weapons maintenance and inspection in the military. What part (if neglected) causes crappy triggers in the military weapons?
Thanks
ChicagoTex
11-17-10, 01:22
Thanks for bringing me up to speed on weapons maintenance and inspection in the military.
You're welcome. Of course, I am speaking in generalizations - some units are better about maintenance and repairs than others (of course). Also, for whatever it's worth, I've gathered by reading in between the lines that primary weapons (carbines/rifles/some shotguns) see a lot more attention from armorers, which is why I initially qualified the negligence as being pertinent only to secondary weapons.
What part (if neglected) causes crappy triggers in the military weapons?
Pretty sure it's a combination of never really cleaning out fouling from sandy environments and not replacing springs in the trigger assemblies per their recommended maintenance schedules (or any schedule for that matter).
Case in point, an M9 clocks 20k+ rounds (don't get hung up on that number, it's just something I pulled out of my ass to demonstrate the gun is well-used) and starts to have FTEs/FTFeeds, to remedy the problem most armorers will replace the recoil spring and quite possibly the locking block, they generally will not replace any of the other springs in the gun (assuming basic function is restored), even though to a prudent shooter with plenty of time on his hands one spring failure is an indicator that all springs could probably stand replacement.
Just to be clear, I'm not ripping on armorers in the US Military. They've got a lot of stuff to worry about and take care of and if something has to suffer, I consider a crispy trigger pull on a secondary to be an acceptable loss, especially when the alternative is neglecting primary weapons.
I'm hoping someone with more first-hand experience will chime in on this. Pretty much all of this info came to me third-hand from my buddies in the Army and Marines, none of whom were armorers.
Business_Casual
11-17-10, 06:03
/thread drift.../
The BHP is a fine pistol, it killed plenty of Nazis and Godless communists in its time, if that is all you have or you only want to use it for the occasional range session and "hey, Dad, look at this" over a beer.
For every day carry and/or persistant usage and training, there are far better options. Those options (9mm Glock, M&P, P30, etc.) aren't perfect and anyone of us could find a "but what about this" with any of them. That doesn't mean they aren't better options than the P35 in terms of durability, ubiquity of parts and accessory options and rails.
B_C
Pretty sure it's a combination of never really cleaning out fouling from sandy environments and not replacing springs in the trigger assemblies per their recommended maintenance schedules (or any schedule for that matter).
What springs would that be? What are the recommended maintenance schedules?
Thanks
BC,
You're right about thread drift. I believe the OP simply asked if anyone else like BHPs and to see some pictures. It turned into another thread where others wanted to tell us all how modern designs are better.
To the OP, I like BHPs and you have a nice looking pistol there!
Hope you enjoy it as much as I did mine.
ChicagoTex
11-17-10, 19:03
What springs would that be? What are the recommended maintenance schedules?
Obviously, since we're talking about two different platforms (SIG and Beretta), a lot of the specifics vary (which exact springs, how many, and replacement schedule), but generally it's the mainsprings and trigger/trigger bar springs that are going to have the most effect on trigger pull. As for exact schedules, google around, they're out there.
If you want to discuss this more in depth you can PM me or start a new thread, this is starting to get a little hi-jackish.
Not necessary, you've answered my questions.
Barry in IN
11-20-10, 12:59
I carry a Browning HiPower almost every day.
Why?
Because it fits my hand better than any other gun, and it's shape carries easier than any other gun it's size.
Most, if not all, of the HiPower shortcomings have been listed here, but they are all correctable. It may take time and money, but it can be done.
Still, I haven't found a gun that can can top them in those two areas I just named no matter what you put into them.
I can get the HiPower trigger tuned, change the sights, bob the hammer, or whatever else needs done, but I can never make a Glock (or whatever) grip feel like a HiPower's nor get an M&P (or whatever) to carry as comfortably IWB as a HiPower.
And really, I don't have to go overboard with HiPower mods. A new MKIII HiPower has fair safety levers and sights, and after changing the grips they feel good. As far as the the trigger, I've found they vary a lot, so if I can look over several of them and pick the best one, it will probably be OK as-is. That leaves the hammer bite (which some people get and some don't, and by different parts of the hammer), and a file should fix that.
The next expenditure, when ready and if wanted, would be sending the slide to Heinie for Straight Eights. Until then, I'm out the cost of the gun and a set of grips.
In a work gun I want a decent trigger, good sights, and RELIABILITY. IMHO the BHP is marginal in the first, sights OK to excellent in the Mk. II and III versions, and at least in the ones I have owned, very good in the reliability department. Back in the day (as in "Days, Good Old") my agency let me carry a LW commander in .45; but a lightly modded Mark III with +P+ would pass muster if I had to choose again.
They're just a tool, but some tools work better for some people than others. I try not to snicker at people's choices until I've seen them at work. I get embarassed less often that way.:jester:
D. Christopher
11-21-10, 00:12
I got to shoot the BHP in the mid 1980's for a while and never could hit anything with it. I just didn't have the skill level to shoot it well. Did the BHP always have a magazine safety or was that a later addition?
SeaSoldier
11-21-10, 09:04
http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu257/SeaSoldier0311/100_3091.jpg
I'm kinda partial to mine but I'm no Operator. Are their better choices, sure but I don't feel the love for them like I do for a correctly executed HiPower.
http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu257/SeaSoldier0311/100_3091.jpg
I'm kinda partial to mine but I'm no Operator. Are their better choices, sure but I don't feel the love for them like I do for a correctly executed HiPower.
==================
Like Tina says in the song says..."...what's love got to do with it..." :)
Confidence...OK, but confidence can be easily achieved with a better gun with a little time...and money (ammo).
.
SeaSoldier
11-21-10, 10:23
I have plenty of confidence in my G19 and M&P9 as well, They're just hard to fall in love with.
I have plenty of confidence in my G19 and M&P9 as well, They're just hard to fall in love with.
And there in lies the rub.
Every discussion of legacy arms, whether the BHP, 1911, M1, M14, etc. always comes around to some sort of emotional attachment, or other unquantifiable, like romance, nostalgia, dead nazis, etc.
That's fine, as long as you recognize it. It's when people use that as a reason to declare them better guns, that I take issue.
Bob
i tried one several years ago, still got the scar on my thumb from it, not getting another one even though i think they look sexy.
i tried one several years ago, still got the scar on my thumb from it, not getting another one even though i think they look sexy.
How'd you get a scar from the pistol?
Anyone else own one - post up some pics and/or opinions
I hope you haven't been scared off; the Hi Power is a fine pistol. I dont know how else to put it, but some of these haters should know better.
Like already mentioned, the grip is terrific, and has proven itself for generations. The current MKIII versions have FN's improved sights & thumb safety. Any spur hammer bite is easily fixed by removing the tip from the 2nd or 3rd serration. This is a proven reliable fix, and hardly a significant amount of the hammer. Or you can swap hammer type; another reliable proven remedy.
In theory, we should be able to teach anyone to do perfect with the "best" pistol.
However, real life gets in our way sometimes and the Hi Power, or any brand, is the "best" depending on that person...
The best pistol depends on each person and their circumstances, period. No one pistol, or action type or construction material, is best for everyone.
Some people have medical or similar issues, like polio or arthritis, which will dictate which choices to make. Other people have legal issues that decide if, and which, pistols they can possess.
The FN High Power, sold here in the USA under the Browning brand, is a proven & reliable piece of equipment. My .40 S&W Hi Powers have proven more reliable than the Glock .40's.
These pistols are reliable and proven, and that is fact not fiction. Not everyone will like the Hi Power, but we can substitute any other pistol and say the same thing.
The fantasy of old designs being 2nd best because of the date of design is flawed at best. Not all improvements are improvements to begin with, and they certainly do not make previous versions useless.
http://i804.photobucket.com/albums/yy329/Poohgyrr/Guns/41100622.jpg
http://i804.photobucket.com/albums/yy329/Poohgyrr/Guns/b1a7f8c1.jpg
Edited: Ever notice how haters respond with personal attacks?
And to the OP, you have a fine pistol. For good information, presented in a reasonable mature manner, visit Hipowersandhandguns dot com.
Littlelebowski
11-23-10, 13:30
The FN High Power, sold here in the USA under the Browning brand, is a proven & reliable piece of equipment. My .40 S&W Hi Powers have proven more reliable than the Glock .40's.
These pistols are reliable and proven, and that is fact not fiction. Not everyone will like the Hi Power, but we can substitute any other pistol and say the same thing.
The fantasy of old designs being 2nd best because of the date of design is flawed at best. Not all improvements are improvements to begin with, and they certainly do not make previous versions useless.
I assume you shoot an M1 and don't believe in the polio vaccine frippery?
Business_Casual
11-23-10, 14:41
Drum brakes and bias-ply tires for pooh bear, right?
B_C
The OP bought one, liked it and simply asked if anyone else felt the same. He didn't ask for a comparison against other handguns.
What's the problem with that?
NMBigfoot02
11-23-10, 17:24
The OP bought one, liked it and simply asked if anyone else felt the same. He didn't ask for a comparison against other handguns.
Anyone else own one - post up some pics and/or opinions of the BHP.
The OP asked for opinions. Given the purpose of the forum, he's getting exactly what he asked for.
The OP asked for opinions. Given the purpose of the forum, he's getting exactly what he asked for.
Okay so what's your opinion?
NMBigfoot02
11-23-10, 19:59
Okay so what's your opinion?
See post #40.
WOW, WTF is goin on around here lately?
Pooh, two post's and your insulting members? Then claiming its us that do the insulting? "Haters" "know better" really, what should we know better, then whats been pointed out in the various Hi power threads?
No on here said that the BHP was not a good or viable gun, or useless. But, it has been surpassed by newer designs, THAT is fact not fiction.
That your individual copy of a BHP has proven more reliable then "the glock .40's" is irrelevant. examples of one and all.
What is "fantasy" is the idea the the BHP(or 1911 for that matter) remained in service for so long, because they were so good, and every GI issued one was a one man wrecking crew on the enemy because of it.
They remained in service, because until the advent of CT units, pistols were seen as irrelevant, and no time or money should be spent on them.
The tests they passed, if a particular country even tested it, were nothing compared to what modern service pistols are subjected to.
Show me, a recent, relevant, comprehensive, handgun test and eval that the BHP either won or was even present for?
Some of you guys need to get over your romance with "the good old days" and take a look at a calendar.
Redhat,
whats that mean? You asked his opinion, and now you don't want to read it?
Bob
John_Wayne777
11-23-10, 22:07
The fantasy of old designs being 2nd best because of the date of design is flawed at best.
That's not the basis of the criticism. I say again: There are elite military and law enforcement units that used the HP as sidearms and found that when they were used heavily (shot a lot) that they did not hold up well. There's a reason why they abandoned the HP in favor of other pistols that hold up to the demands of serious shooters better.
Arguing otherwise at this point is essentially arguing that the earth is flat.
Spend more time reading and learning...less time getting offended when people post the objective truth.
John_wayne777, is correct about the older Hi Powers not holding up. This is due to the fact that they were made with crap steel for decades. The early exception would be a Inglis model that I defy anyone to destroy. The design itself is as reliable as any of the more modern ones, including a Glock. I also believe that the newer pistols have the ability to hold up to larger round counts than they will ever be shot by 99% of the population. I say buy a new one with confidence.
crusader377
11-23-10, 23:13
What is "fantasy" is the idea the the BHP(or 1911 for that matter) remained in service for so long, because they were so good, and every GI issued one was a one man wrecking crew on the enemy because of it.
They remained in service, because until the advent of CT units, pistols were seen as irrelevant, and no time or money should be spent on them.
I actually think the BHP remained in service for such a long time is because until the 1970's there really wasn't any 9mm that was better. In addition, when the BHP was actually adopted by most militaries which was from WWII to the late 1950s/early 1960s there was very little competition from other 9mm pistols. Also, R Moran is absolutely correct that pisols were largely viewed as irrelevant and as long as the pistol worked there was little incentive to replace with a newer design. We still see that today with the M9 being the standard military sidearm even though it is an increasely dated design next to a glock or M&P.
[/QUOTE]
Show me, a recent, relevant, comprehensive, handgun test and eval that the BHP either won or was even present for?[/QUOTE]
I think that both the BHP and the M1911 are at a big disadvantage at any major eval largely due to price and being single action pistols.
In any equipment purchase, price and value is an very important factor. Even though the BHP is a very good pistol, why would any organization adopt a BHP when they could buy a equally if not more capable glock or M&P for half the price. Also, FN would be insane to offer a 70 plus year old design when they have the very capable and much more price competitive FNP available. Furthermore, it generally requires more training for someone to be competent with a single action auto than a double action or striker fired pistols.
Did the BHP always have a magazine safety or was that a later addition?
It's been in the design since the prototype. The pistol was intended to compete for a French military contract and the magazine disconnect was probably one of their specifications. The Browning design was reworked at FN into the Hi Power. The gun being made in Belgium, the French snubbed it. Instead they drew up a much less elegant Model 1935 of their own that used some Browning concepts. The new French design held fewer rounds and had the manual safety in an awkward spot by the rear sight. It also had a magazine disconnector.
Supposedly there are batches of WWII era Hi Powers made for the Germans that do not have this 'feature'.
It is not uncommon to have it removed from modern pistols since it corrupts the trigger pull.
How'd you get a scar from the pistol?
John Moses Browning was the most important firearms designer in history. His assistant, Dieudonne Saive, was also a genius.
Both must have had the hands of a 13 year old girl.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Hi%20Power/FMP-35Hand003.jpg
ChicagoTex
11-24-10, 00:37
Both must have had the hands of a 13 year old girl.
I heard a rumor that the original 100% Browning design was much larger than the final version. Supposedly the design was shrunk to be better suited to the european clientele (especially the French, who've already been mentioned).
ETA: For all I had heard about the "legendary ergonomics" of the BHP, my first handling of the pistol was fraught with massive disappointment just as demonstrated in the photo.
They work for me;)
(as long as Wayne Novak does NOT touch them)
http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr280/45Fundi/IMG_2017_2.jpg
variablebinary
11-24-10, 05:00
If Hi-Powers had the same level of support as the 1911, we'd see more that are G2G out the box.
However, that is not the case. Hi-Powers are cool, but every single factory gun needs work. Not slight work either.
The lack of solid factory support is what really kills the Hi-Power.
How many credible Hi-Power makers are there out there? Like 1, and that's Browning, and its not like they are pioneering anything.
There are a dozen 1911 makers cranking out solid product.
For me 1911s & P-35s are guns that have greater capability to be custom fitted to exactly what the shooter wants. This makes them a more intimate weapon and more personal. And they feel better in the hand than another weapon for many of us right out of the box. All of my P-35s have had perfect reliability right out of the box. Some of them I have had trigger jobs and ergonomics changed, but all have been reliable right out of the box. I carry a stock P-35 for EDC. They also conceal better than any other full size gun. I thought the OP wanted to hear from those with "Love" for the Hi-Power not from those with "hate" for it;)
Redhat,
whats that mean? You asked his opinion, and now you don't want to read it?
Exactly...I already have a pretty good guess on what he has to say.
:rolleyes:
Anyone else own one - post up some pics and/or opinions of the BHP.
As noted, the OP got exactly what he asked for, good or bad. I don't know if you noticed, but this site isn't one, where we post pics of our range toys and safe queens, then all stand around wide eyed posting how great it is, just for your or anyone else's validation. Or at least it used to not be.
ChicagoTex, commented it was a "crappy way to go", not it was a crappy gun, much like the 1911 route.
No on else said it was crap or junk, only that it had been surpassed by modern designs, you can cry whine and stomp your feet, but that is a fact.
You took offence, mentioned some overblown war record. and, now you've decided that you don't want to hear someone else's opinion:rolleyes:
See above, about what kind of site this is supposed to be.
Bob
:rolleyes:
As noted, the OP got exactly what he asked for, good or bad. I don't know if you noticed, but this site isn't one, where we post pics of our range toys and safe queens, then all stand around wide eyed posting how great it is, just for your or anyone else's validation. Or at least it used to not be.
ChicagoTex, commented it was a "crappy way to go", not it was a crappy gun, much like the 1911 route.
No on else said it was crap or junk, only that it had been surpassed by modern designs, you can cry whine and stomp your feet, but that is a fact.
You took offence, mentioned some overblown war record. and, now you've decided that you don't want to hear someone else's opinion:rolleyes:
See above, about what kind of site this is supposed to be.
Bob
Who me?
:rolleyes:
You're a regular laugh riot.
Bob
Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss anything I've said.
Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss anything I've said.
We can discuss it right here in "public" just like your comments were made.
Bob
While I enjoy my Mk III .40 Hi-Power, I do so with the knowledge that while it's a competant handgun, there are more modern choices that have improved upon it in many categories.
On the plus side, I've found the Hi-Power to be well made, accurate, highly reliable, with generally good ergonomics, and an excellent feel and fit, and a good size-to-weight ratio. Out-of-the-box reliability is likely to be far better than that of a corresponding 1911-pattern pistol. I find the current sights on Hi-Powers to be excellent, with their square dots and thin front sight/wide-notch rear sight configuration.
On the minus side, the hammer is sharp (and the hammer-tang configuration is such that many are pinched by the hammer), out-of-the-box triggerpulls are frequently abysmal (heavy and gritty-completely unacceptable in what now is a handgun retailing for around $1000), reloads are inhibited by a unbeveled magazine well, and the gun is possessed with many fiddly small parts, compromising the long-term durability, especially over 15,000 to 35,000 rounds. The epoxy finish, while generally quite protective, is a generation behind in both technology and protectiveness to such treatments as tennifer and melonite, to name just two.
I enjoy, use and admire the Hi-Power for what it is. While it's a still very much a viable choice in a handgun, if going to a hard, dark, unhospitable place, my first choice in a handgun would much more likely be one of my Glocks.
Best, Jon
While I enjoy my Mk III .40 Hi-Power, I do so with the knowledge that while it's a competant handgun, there are more modern choices that have improved upon it in many categories.
On the plus side, I've found the Hi-Power to be well made, accurate, highly reliable, with generally good ergonomics, and an excellent feel and fit, and a good size-to-weight ratio. Out-of-the-box reliability is likely to be far better than that of a corresponding 1911-pattern pistol. I find the current sights on Hi-Powers to be excellent, with their square dots and thin front sight/wide-notch rear sight configuration.
On the minus side, the hammer is sharp (and the hammer-tang configuration is such that many are pinched by the hammer), out-of-the-box triggerpulls are frequently abysmal (heavy and gritty-completely unacceptable in what now is a handgun retailing for around $1000), reloads are inhibited by a unbeveled magazine well, and the gun is possessed with many fiddly small parts, compromising the long-term durability, especially over 15,000 to 35,000 rounds. The epoxy finish, while generally quite protective, is a generation behind in both technology and protectiveness to such treatments as tennifer and melonite, to name just two.
I enjoy, use and admire the Hi-Power for what it is. While it's a still very much a viable choice in a handgun, if going to a hard, dark, unhospitable place, my first choice in a handgun would much more likely be one of my Glocks.
Best, Jon
I don't think I could have said it better.
I love the idea of a Hi Power, but every time I get my hands on one (and I've owned 4 through the years) within two magazines my wookie paws are turned into hamburger.
Without significant investment of time and money into having a smith make it useable for me, they just don't work for me.
The same can be said for a box stock M1911 or M1911A1....hence my comment about the size of JMB's hands.
If a Hi Power works for you, brother, rock on.
15 years ago, when I was actively selling guns, I sold my friend her first handgun, a Browning Hi Power Mk.III Practical, and over the years she's gotten damn good with it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Lora/Birthday%2022%20June%2008/P1000243-1.jpg
Templar,
I wonder if you might be on to something about smaller hands of individuals back when these guns were designed?
When I had my MKIII, I never had a problem with any hammer/slide bite but...I shot the pitsol Weaver with both thumbs locked down just like we did the M9.
I do get hammer bite from my '70 series Colt.
charmcitycop
11-26-10, 14:36
.........
luckybychoice
11-26-10, 15:01
http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab76/luckybychoice/familyphotos116.jpghere's mine,probably 10,000 rounds downrange with it and no problem,it is dead sexy.
Regarding trigger reset, I simply treat my Hi-Power like a revolver-just let the trigger go all the way foward. While technically/mechanically the reset point is actually achieved before the totally foward position, realistically I've found it to be undiscernable-especially when under pressure-so merely letting it go fully foward is a foolproof way of avoiding short-stroking.
My solution regarding the dimunitive size of the Hi-Power receiver (and the trigger finger index) is to bulk up the grip-simply by using Hogue's wrap-around fingergroove grips. While aesthetically they're a bit...challenged, they more importantly work-for me and my hand, so that with them my trigger finger is effectively and naturally positioned on the trigger.
While there are better safety levers available, I'm actually ok with the current OEM "banana" shaped levers. While they're easy to take off safe, it is a bit more of a challenge to put them back on safe, due to the relative lack of a shelf on their lower surface. The relative ease/difficulty of this is somewhat dependant upon one's grip selection. And yes, they are more "mushy" when using, but they're positive enough. If you want a crisper snicking safety, a gunsmith can easily and inexpensively rectify it.
Incidentally, I'm somewhat convinced that a significent amount of the out-of-the-box reliability inherent to a modern Hi-Power has a lot to do with the shift that FN did in 1962 regarding the extractor, moving from an internal, torsion-sprung extractor to the contemporary external, independantly sprung extractor; according to Blake Stevens in his book "The Browning High Power Automatic Pistol, pp 168-168, "...the simplified extractor itself provided much more positive and reliable action..." FN just might have been on to something there....
Best, Jon
Hey John in WA,
Since you have studied the history of the weapon. Is there any info you've found on durability testing?
Thanks
Redhat (and others);
Probably the best information on Hi-Power durability is to be found here on the forum-in February 2009 we had a very informative in-depth thread titled "Any Experience With .40 Cal Hi Powers?" with some very experienced and knowledgeable participants commenting (with information/results pertaining to both 9mm and .40 Hi-Powers covered).
Other excellent information can be found at www.hipowersandhandguns.com and www.cylinder-slide.com sites.
I think that you'll generally find that the knowledgeable consensus is that Hi-Power barrels have a generally expected lifespan for around 12,000-15,000 rounds, and the guns themselves are expected to have a viable operational lifespan of around 35,000 rounds, assuming reasonable maintenance and preventive maintenance/parts/spring replacement; recoil springs should probably be replaced every 1,000-2,000 rounds, depending on use/ammunition/personal preference.
Best, Jon
ChicagoTex
11-26-10, 22:18
I think that you'll generally find that the knowledgeable consensus is that Hi-Power barrels have a generally expected lifespan for around 15,000 rounds, and the guns themselves are expected to have a viable operational lifespan of around 35,000 rounds, assuming reasonable maintenance and preventive maintenance/parts/spring replacement;
recoil springs should probably be replaced every 1,000-2,000 rounds, depending on use/ammunition/personal preference.
While I'm not utterly surprised by those numbers, they are quite a bit worse than I thought (you'd think an all-steel 9mm would be good for at least 50,000). By contrast, Kyle Defoor recently reported on his blog that he had finally shot out the barrel on his G17 at 105,000 rounds.
While it's certainly an all-steel gun, the Hi-Power is also a fairly svelte gun, and, in the long run, there's a penalty to be exacted for its lack of overall bulk-long-term longevity at the reported round counts. The Hi-Power was designed (and manufactured) around earlier 20th century technology, techniques and materials, and also for far lower forecasted organizational and individual round counts over the gun's lifespan. Until relatively recently, organizations and individuals simply weren't likely to heavily use their handguns in a given year, let alone continuously over the lifespan of the gun.
More modern designs, technology, materials and manufacturing techniques have provided us with more viable heavy-use handguns capable of sustaining continuous use and achieving higher round counts-Glocks and HKs come to mind as current paradigms of viable heavy use/low maintenance handguns. That reality doesn't discount the viability of the Hi-Power as a gun within acceptable use/round count parameters, but it does provide a perspective for us as its users. I can appreciate a 1960s vintage Ferrari Testa Rossa, but it's unlikely that if I had one that I'd choose it for my daily driver...especially, say, in Chicago in the winter...
Best, Jon
While it's certainly an all-steel gun, the Hi-Power is also a fairly svelte gun, and, in the long run, there's a penalty to be exacted for its lack of overall bulk-long-term longevity at the reported round counts. The Hi-Power was designed (and manufactured) around earlier 20th century technology, techniques and materials, and also for far lower forecasted organizational and individual round counts over the gun's lifespan. Until relatively recently, organizations and individuals simply weren't likely to heavily use their handguns in a given year, let alone continuously over the lifespan of the gun.
More modern designs, technology, materials and manufacturing techniques have provided us with more viable heavy-use handguns capable of sustaining continuous use and achieving higher round counts-Glocks and HKs come to mind as current paradigms of viable heavy use/low maintenance handguns. That reality doesn't discount the viability of the Hi-Power as a gun within acceptable use/round count parameters, but it does provide a perspective for us as its users. I can appreciate a 1960s vintage Ferrari Testa Rossa, but it's unlikely that if I had one that I'd choose it for my daily driver...especially, say, in Chicago in the winter...
Best, Jon
Well said, Jon. It warrants adding here that, while a Hi-Power might "need" to be massaged to perfection, at some cost, those who are into them are often very willing to spend that money. Also, a Hi-power fan will tend to be willing to do that repeatedly, so that he ends up with a collection of such pistols, such that no single one of them has to bear the whole burden of wear and tear. You can shoot the snot out of it, but you don't have to shoot ALL the snot out of it, because you have two or three, or maybe more, additional examples, whose snot is being shot out, too.
Magic_Salad0892
11-28-10, 04:20
By contrast, Kyle Defoor recently reported on his blog that he had finally shot out the barrel on his G17 at 105,000 rounds.
206,000. That's what it said when I read it.
Chuck Taylor's Glock has also gone longer than that. (200,000 something...)
ChicagoTex
11-28-10, 05:09
206,000. That's what it said when I read it.
Good catch, I was misremembering the round count much lower than it actually was.
I thought it was impossible to shoot out a pistol barrel, but apparantly I've succeded. I also don't think I've ever heard of anyone else doing it. As for the number of rounds, it's somewhere around 205,000. The ole girl has had 2 sets of sights, 2 recoil springs, and 8 trigger return springs. She has served well.
Just to give an update, I removed the mag safety last week and ran 250 rounds between the BHP and M&P today with the majority of the rounds going through the BHP. DANG I like this gun. Feels like it's molded to my arms when firing, natural pointer, well balanced and the trigger is MUCH improved.
While I understand it may not be the same level of a pure use it & abuse it full on combat weapon that the Glock or XXX is considered to be, I like it and like it a lot.
Just to give an update, I removed the mag safety last week and ran 250 rounds between the BHP and M&P today with the majority of the rounds going through the BHP. DANG I like this gun. Feels like it's molded to my arms when firing, natural pointer, well balanced and the trigger is MUCH improved.
While I understand it may not be the same level of a pure use it & abuse it full on combat weapon that the Glock or XXX is considered to be, I like it and like it a lot.
Cool deal.
Removing that mag safety goes a long way towards improving the trigger.
While it's certainly an all-steel gun, the Hi-Power is also a fairly svelte gun, and, in the long run, there's a penalty to be exacted for its lack of overall bulk-long-term longevity at the reported round counts. ...
Right.
I've been wondering why current companies don't make double stack pistols with a slimmer slide using new durable materials.
It's a shame they don't since the BHP profile is much easier to carry IWB than the thicker modern double stack slides. The slide on my BHP is just a smidge over an inch around the action and tapers to .75" at the business end. Much better IWB comfort.
The glock, HK, and M&P are all 1.15-1.25" wide for the entire slide.
Right.
I've been wondering why current companies don't make double stack pistols with a slimmer slide using new durable materials.
It's a shame they don't since the BHP profile is much easier to carry IWB than the thicker modern double stack slides. The slide on my BHP is just a smidge over an inch around the action and tapers to .75" at the business end. Much better IWB comfort.
The glock, HK, and M&P are all 1.15-1.25" wide for the entire slide.
Back in the '20's the BHP was designed around the 9mm cartridge. Now, most new pistols are designed around .40S&W and 9mm is an afterthought.
Back in the '20's the BHP was designed around the 9mm cartridge. Now, most new pistols are designed around .40S&W and 9mm is an afterthought.
Yeah, that's true. For the Hi-Power, they changed to a tougher cast frame, and beefier/wider forged slide, for the .40 S&W cartridge. There is also an additional locking lug on the barrel and slide. Of course, the 9mm pistols, since then, have been made on the same cast frame.
Well, the Glock was made for the 9mm, that's why all the trouble with the G22's.
I think it has to do with the way the gun locks up. I would assume that there has to be a certain amount of contact between the slide and barrel. The BHP has the radial barrel lugs, new guns use the breach to lock up, so it needs to be bigger and wider to get the required contact.
While the heavy hammer spring is noted for reliably igniting hard military primers, I would think it also plays a part in managing slide velocity, lockup, etc.
There is also the differences in lockwork, double action, safe action, etc etc.
The small, svelte size of the BHP is not w/o its drawbacks.
Bob
ChicagoTex
11-30-10, 00:07
While the heavy hammer spring is noted for reliably igniting hard military primers, I would think it also plays a part in managing slide velocity, lockup, etc.
While it'd be a lie to say it plays NO part, it plays so little a part as to be negligible.
While it'd be a lie to say it plays NO part, it plays so little a part as to be negligible.
Got me, I know there were some small autos in the past that relied heavily on the hammer spring, and these were locked breech guns.
Bob
On the early P-35 guns with the sear lever that does not have a spring (pre-firing pin block) you really need to use heavier springs when shooting (+P) ammo to reduce slide speed as the nose of the sear lever will bang against the rear of the frame and can actually get caught on it jamming up the gun. If you look at many of those guns there will be a strange wear mark on the rear of the frame from this happening when the gun was shot with worn springs. The MK III guns with firing pin block have a spring under the sear lever that usually keeps the sear lever nose from dropping down during recoil of the slide. I personally do not bother with +P in my P-35s.
Looks like a good way to get some cheap love.......:secret:
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1FNHP-S&groupid=3
John_Wayne777
12-08-10, 17:18
Must...not...reach...for...credit...card...must...be...responsible...
Must...not...reach...for...credit...card...must...be...responsible...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ep2JEIOmjg&feature :big_boss:
dookie1481
12-08-10, 18:45
Looks like a good way to get some cheap love.......:secret:
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1FNHP-S&groupid=3
I was just gonna post that...
The first pistol I owned was a BHP, which was later "acquired" by my ex-wife... when we were still married she bought me a customized Cylinder and Slide BHP as a gift.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/tommel/Forum%20Pictures%202/WallpaperMyBHPRAWP1071295.jpg
I later found and bought an BHP that was made in the late fifties that someone else had sent off to Bill Lauthridge.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/tommel/Forum%20Pictures%204/RightsideBHPP4094012.jpg
I've used them as carry pistols and understand the limitations of the pistol.... that being said, it is still my favorite 9mm pistol.
-Tom
NMBigfoot02
12-09-10, 10:26
Looks like a good way to get some cheap love.......:secret:
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1FNHP-S&groupid=3
I hate you, I hate you, I hate you....
Here I am, trying to get out of the BHP game, and you pull me right back in...
ChicagoTex
12-09-10, 10:57
I hate you, I hate you, I hate you....
Here I am, trying to get out of the BHP game, and you pull me right back in...
Given that they're all sold out, you may well be safe after all.
crusader377
12-09-10, 12:57
Must...not...reach...for...credit...card...must...be...responsible...
+1, had my credit card out and was ready to order, but decided to be responsible. Wife already thinks I have too many guns so I have to lay low for awhile.
While it'd be a lie to say it plays NO part, it plays so little a part as to be negligible.
Disagree. The hammer spring plays more than a negligible role. The movement of the slide has to overcome both the recoil spring as well as the hammer spring after the hammer has fallen. The easiest way to demonstrate this would be to try different combinations of hammer springs with the same weight recoil spring. Racking the slide (hammer not cocked) with your hand using these different weights shows what the reward movement of the slide has to overcome. I understand that racking a slide is not the same as a slide being moved from being fired, but the principle is the same. Inertia has to be overcome, and this inertia is greater with a heavier spring.
I've got 3: a "C" model; an '81 Mk I; and a current Mk III. I really appreciate their advanced design (in 1935), history, and sleek lines. Mine are used for range purposes. My carry and "go to" guns are 1911s, a Sig 229 (.40), and a Kahr .40. WB
The lines are great and they are the most natural pointers for my (possibly mutant) wrist geometry. I no longer own any. The trigger is a pain - the magazine disconnect issue has been hashed to death in another thread. I got rid of the bunch I had for a couple of reasons. First, the locking lugs are prone to wear, especially with hot ammo. No, not really fast but enough. Yes, I like to use hot ammo. as my purpose is SHTF, whether an attack in a parking lot or TEOTWAWKI: I want to plant the perp NOW. Another problem is everything involved with them is a "collector item". Doesn't matter if it was made last year. Also, I prefer stainless since I live in a coastal area and take it on a boat. So, they're nice to look at and a pleasure to shoot, they're gone.
I have found the BHP grip frame to be the best fit for my hand . Box stock or Novak tuned like this one I had worked on back in the 90's . They "just fit" . I've owned maybe a dozen since the 70's as well as an example or 3 of most popular auto pistols . The BHP still feels the best .
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y154/mitch61/NovakHPCrawford.jpg
The lines are great and they are the most natural pointers for my (possibly mutant) wrist geometry. I no longer own any. The trigger is a pain - the magazine disconnect issue has been hashed to death in another thread. I got rid of the bunch I had for a couple of reasons. First, the locking lugs are prone to wear, especially with hot ammo. No, not really fast but enough. Yes, I like to use hot ammo. as my purpose is SHTF, whether an attack in a parking lot or TEOTWAWKI: I want to plant the perp NOW. Another problem is everything involved with them is a "collector item". Doesn't matter if it was made last year. Also, I prefer stainless since I live in a coastal area and take it on a boat. So, they're nice to look at and a pleasure to shoot, they're gone.
I thought it was pretty well known that HPs and +p ammo don't do well together. Aside from that, how much faster will "hot" ammo plant the bad guy and why?
Thanks
Littlelebowski
01-01-11, 12:16
I thought it was pretty well known that HPs and +p ammo don't do well together. Aside from that, how much faster will "hot" ammo plant the bad guy and why?
Thanks
Read this (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887). Ask the questions you might have after a thorough reading of this link in the Terminal Ballistics section.
Read this (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887). Ask the questions you might have after a thorough reading of this link in the Terminal Ballistics section.
Thanks but I've already seen it. What particular part are you referring to?
Littlelebowski
01-01-11, 12:54
Thanks but I've already seen it. What particular part are you referring to?
Start a +P and +P+ 9mm ammo discussion thread in Terminal Ballistics then since it is off topic here albeit well covered on this site.
What would be the point.
From the post I was quoting he made it sound like using "hot" ammo is going to put the threat down "Now".
I think this is a risky assumption...that's all.
Littlelebowski
01-01-11, 13:40
I prefer to stack the deck in my own favor and use the best ammo as tested by the experts. This reminds me of the 1911 guys who run FMJ because their pistols won't shoot JHPs reliably.
Not all the rounds listed in the table you linked to were +P or +P+.
Nobody said to go out in search of substandard ammo or recommended FMJ so I have no idea what you mean by that.
GermanSynergy
01-01-11, 15:42
While the P-35 served admirably, as a defensive handgun it is far outclassed by more modern and ergonomic designs today, such as the Generation 3 Glock 9mm's & the excellent M&P line.
Disclosure- I've owned three Browning MK III's since the fall of 2000, and found myself going right back to Glock.
Trigger reach is too short for my large hands. It does seem to be a 4/5 size handgun.
Here is mine Israeli FN
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n56/aimeehoge/BHP.jpg
http://i2.listal.com/image/1830096/936full-beverly-hills-cop-screenshot.jpg
Johnny Wishbone approved.
heuhuhhuhhah
On a serious note I havn't fired one but it looks like a decent pistol I wouldn't mind owning one.
Alaskapopo
02-17-12, 02:19
.
On this site, there is a lot of love for the Browning Hi-Power, but most guys don't know it because they have redirected that "love" into Glocks, SIGs, M&P's, etc.
If you read a good description of almost every modern pistol in the last 50-years, it is stated that they have a "...modified Browning design..." or "...Browning-type action..." which refers to the Browning Hi-Power. So, they are all based on the Hi-Power to some degree.
They are great guns.
Don't hate... :)
.
Thats a huge leap. Saying if you like a modern gun that may have used some design concepts like say a double stack magazine from the High Power you really like High Powers. I have tried to like these guns. The grip is great nice and comfortable and the 9mm versions balance well. The problems come with the trigger they flat out suck. The vary from craptacular to toleragle if Cylinder and Slide works them over. They always have a long reset. They don't do well with hot ammo. There is more not to like on the BHP than to like. I have owned 2 different 9mm highpowers and 1 40sw version.
Pat
Battlepack
02-17-12, 09:08
I've got a FN marked MKIII that I like a lot, but I have to change my grip with it because I get premature slide locks when I shoot high thumbs. For that reason, it is mostly a range only gun for me.
Love?
I've gone on record on this site several times--and have borne the slings and arrows of advocates of "modern" firearms--but the BHP is one of two pistols, the other being the 1911, I would bet my life on when a handgun is the only thing between me and the cold metal table at the medical examiner's office.
I own two unmodified MK3 BHP's in the same serial number range. Both are 100% reliable with everthing from cheap ammo to premium +P ammo. If I could have only one 9mm pistol, it would be my older and trouble free Glock 19. Otherwise, I also plan to have a BHP, which I have over 30 years experience with.
With the hammer spring being so strong, if you get one, I suggest that you keep it cocked and locked. Avoid the temptation to let the hammer down on a live round.
Yeah, and they were designed in 1935 and use materials from 1935.
If you had to go to work 25 miles away every day, would you drive this with manual steering, drum brakes and an AM radio:
http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/2833/111319863b6031dbade.jpg (http://img245.imageshack.us/i/111319863b6031dbade.jpg/)
Or would you take this:
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/6425/2008bmw128i001.jpg (http://img242.imageshack.us/i/2008bmw128i001.jpg/)
With air bags, anti-lock brakes and an FM radio.
Point is, technology moves on and newer, more durable options exist.
But this is clearly a P-35 wank fest, so have at it.
B_C Tell me how good that bimmer is!! I could cut it in half with a pair of big tin snips. 10 years or sooner it will be rotting away in the junk yard. Technology so, quality ? no!
I am glad that I never sold my BHP. I bought mine back in the mid to late 90's. Traded in a Ruger P89 for it. It has the adjustable sights. Somewhere around 1000 rounds through it, it hasn't been shot alot. I have NEVER had a FTE, FTF, broken parts, nothing. I am currently buying up magazines and shooting the crap out of it.
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