View Full Version : M&P: Do they all need upgrades?
SpookyPistolero
11-14-10, 20:28
Howdy folks-
I'm thinking of selling a piece I own and may get an M&P9 to take its place. I need the skinny on how necessary the Apex upgrades are to the reliability and 'shootability' of this platform. Or put another way, is it necessary to order one with all the work done by Grant, or should I be good to go with one out of the box? I don't care to pay a bit more for quality, but if I can do it with less I'd be happy. I just don't have any tolerance for malfunctions.
And part two: If the Apex upgrades really are that necessary, which ones on the list of options through G&R Tactical are needed, or are they all?
Thanks much-
I am no gun expert at all but reliability wise no. If you want a lighter trigger then Apex is a good choice. I am not a very good shooter, therefore a lighter trigger does make a difference for my confidence. When I shoot DCAEK vs. STOCK I don't see that big of a difference on paper targets.
The benefit of the Apex kit isn't really a reduced pull weight, it's an overall improvement in the quality of the pull. M&Ps out of the box can have a sort of crunchy trigger pull that the Apex sear and particularly the striker block really rectify. In my opinion of course...
MarshallDodge
11-14-10, 20:49
Mine is pretty much stock. I have done a few things to reduce takeup and overtravel but the trigger is still pretty much the stock weight.
It was a little gritty at first but after several hundred rounds and a little lube on the contact points it smoothed out.
is it necessary to order one with all the work done by Grant, or should I be good to go with one out of the box? I don't care to pay a bit more for quality, but if I can do it with less I'd be happy. I just don't have any tolerance for malfunctions.
No, it's not necessary. Reliability is best with the stock pistol. The larger sear plunger and sear spring help with reliability, especially if you have the Apex or PC sears. If you want smoother, use the APEX USB or smooth it yourself.
crusader377
11-14-10, 20:59
I don't think you need to upgrade a M&P. I have a stock M&P and I have been very happy with the trigger. I find the pull to be very reasonable and it has a good reset. An apex upgrade may be nice but I think the stock trigger is still very capable of giving you very good accuracy and speed.
variablebinary
11-14-10, 21:01
No. Mine is stock.
The only thing I plan on changing is the sights. It currently does not have night sights.
arbninftry
11-14-10, 21:03
I dont think you have to upgrade anything. I still am shooting the crap out of mine, its just stock. Put a couple hundred or more rounds through one and then if you dont like it, upgrade it later on down the road. Might be a better option for you.
Lucky Strike
11-14-10, 21:06
My biggest issue with the M&P stock triggers is the "did it or didn't it" reset that they have. On the couple that i've shot as you're letting out the trigger there are a couple spots where it feels like it's reset but it really hasn't yet. The gritty take-up (i'm assuming that'd be something that'd smooth out over time) isn't pleasant but it doesn't bother me as much as the false resets
If the Apex stuff gets rid of this (i'm assuming it does) then whatever part that's responsible for doing that would be considered a must have item for me.
My friend sent his off to Burwell to get his trigger work so that's how he solved the issue.
If the Apex stuff gets rid of this (i'm assuming it does) then whatever part that's responsible for doing that would be considered a must have item for me.
Apex USB or smooth it yourself. Really easy.
I would just go with the DCAEK and forget about it. It makes a WORLD of difference, and at $90, it is probably the best money I have spent on a handgun. If you want to remedy the crunchiness only, just go for the striker block kit. I believe the re-worked geometry of the sear and sear spring and the heavier trigger spring are what helps with improving the reset.
No, it's not necessary. Reliability is best with the stock pistol. The larger sear plunger and sear spring help with reliability, especially if you have the Apex or PC sears. If you want smoother, use the APEX USB or smooth it yourself.
The kit doesn't include a replacement sear plunger.
The kit doesn't include a replacement sear plunger.
Because that requires enlarging the hole. Randy at Apex will mill your sear block and sell you the spring and plunger. Contact him directly if you want it done.
The only real modification that the M&P "needs" out of the box is a damned reprofile and polish of the striker block.
I dont know why in the world Smith designed the striker block to look like a square mushroom. It is the single biggest detractor to the S&W trigger. Once that block is rounded off the stock sears really arent that bad, especially in a service pistol.
SWATcop556
11-15-10, 02:15
All of my M&P's have worked great OTB. I don't see a NEED to use the Apex parts but they do make the M&P that much better.
crazymoose
11-15-10, 02:39
For me, the Apex sear and RAM are essential. I'm a died-in-the-wool Glock man. I'd owned a couple of M&P's in the past and couldn't understand all the praise they receive. Nice guns, sure, but what a steaming pile of shit trigger in stock condition. Gritty and spongy, no discernible reset. The M&P was a no-go for me. Fast forward to recently, where I tried an Apex sear equipped M&P at the range. It was like what you see in the movies, with the beam of light shining down from the clouds while the chorus of angels singing. The improvement really is that good.
Now, I've got an M&P 9L with the Apex sear and RAM installed. Going to install the USB when I replace the sights. Best trigger I've felt in a striker-fired plastic gun. Very nearly the best trigger I've felt in a plastic gun at all (that title goes to the STI GP6). Reset is weaker and longer than a Glock, but still very respectable. However, the pull is smoother and the break much cleaner than with a Glock. I'm not the world's greatest marksman by any stretch, but the first time out with this gun, at 10 yards I shot a couple of 17-round groups you could cover with a silver dollar, and several 5-round groups you could cover with a quarter (the downside is that these groups were way low, but I read that this is a common problem, and I'm hoping that 9L-specific sights will cure it). I almost look like a competent shooter with this thing. Don't mean to get all gushy about it, but this really was a pleasant surprise for me that came out of left field. Many thanks to Apex for doing for the M&P what Smith and Wesson apparently could not.
Not really. My M&P9 is all stock and the trigger is fine to me. The false reset got me a couple of times my first time at the range. It seems to have smoothed out now. The upgrade, if I were to get it, would be more of a want, not a need. The gun is fine as is.
mike benedict
11-15-10, 06:23
The M&P is quite shootable out of the box
I believe it is the best out of the box service pistol available
That said I like the Apex parts alot and they are in both my game and carry M&Ps
Reliability is just fine out of the box. If that is all you are worried about then you really do not need the APEX. Where the APEX shines is that it makes the trigger much better and your group sizes will go down accordingly.
Jay Cunningham
11-15-10, 07:17
People are currently treating the M&P like a 1911 - everybody is in a mad rush to open the box and start swapping parts.
Do they NEED an upgrade = No
Would they benefit from an upgrade = of course, just as any pistol would.
RogerinTPA
11-15-10, 09:09
All of my M&P's have worked great OTB. I don't see a NEED to use the Apex parts but they do make the M&P that much better.
Agreed.
All of mine worked quite well out of the box, however, some triggers were better than others. Specifically the triggers on my .45 and .40 was actually pretty good. The two 9mms had gritty triggers that smoothed out after a few hundred rounds and dry fires. I ran them for a few years that way. I have converted the two 9s and the .40 with the Apex sear, striker block and now the RAM in the past year, along with some Boresight solution goodness. They are now shooting perfection for me. IMHO, and to be honest, I made the mods out of curiosity for the Apex products to see if they made the triggers improve as advertised. For the average person, it's not really necessary. If you have a gritty trigger and a hard to find reset, the Apex sear will be the only mod you will need, and it will be a tremendous upgrade in anyone's shooting experience.
Massachusetts M&P here - yeah, it NEEDED the Apex upgrades. The MA trigger sucks!! :(
People are currently treating the M&P like a 1911 - everybody is in a mad rush to open the box and start swapping parts.
Boom. Right on. Keyword, "mad."
Ya shoot the thing a while, so that you can decide whether or not you should swap things out. Even with the trigger being the one thing that commonly seems uniformly less-than-ideal, it's just dumb to automatically assume it'll be no good for you. Buying an Apex kit before you know you need one isn't "insurance," it's following the internet Pied Piper. Not like they're difficult or slow to get.....
My M&P9 is just barely past 1k rounds, and I'm still only toying with the idea of putting a trit front on it so I can make use of it with or without a mounted light. Everything else is freakin' fantastic. If I'd pre-gamed half of the goofy crap plenty of folks do, I'd have spent almost $150 over the price of the pistol itself, and gotten nothing in the way of palpable benefit that didn't already come with this particular pistol as soon as I slapped the first magazine into the well.
I'm not poo-pooing the upgrades. I use 'em, too. Before the Apex stuff came out, I had a trigger job put on my M&P45 (AFTER 2100 rounds shot). Put an Apex kit in the M&P9c that worked like a dream once installed (AFTER 1800 rounds shot).
Getting them before you know you need them? Not to put too fine a point on it, but that's kinda dumb. Spending the money of putting about 1-2k rounds through it so you have a solid foundation off of which do decide what mods may need be done (or NOT), is a far, far better investment.
If, at that point, you think you need a DCAEK (or a damned pistol-bayonet, ffs), at least you've done the legwork. Prior to that, you're the proverbial sucker that PT Barnum was talking about.
Howdy folks-
I'm thinking of selling a piece I own and may get an M&P9 to take its place. I need the skinny on how necessary the Apex upgrades are to the reliability and 'shootability' of this platform. Or put another way, is it necessary to order one with all the work done by Grant, or should I be good to go with one out of the box? I don't care to pay a bit more for quality, but if I can do it with less I'd be happy. I just don't have any tolerance for malfunctions.
And part two: If the Apex upgrades really are that necessary, which ones on the list of options through G&R Tactical are needed, or are they all?
Thanks much-
Simply depends on what you want from your guns. As for need, they go bang out of the box, so there's no need for any changes to the MnP. It's a want, vs a need in this context.
Yes, the APEX makes a big difference in trigger quality, but that may or may not be an issue to you per se.
Reliability is just fine out of the box. If that is all you are worried about then you really do not need the APEX. Where the APEX shines is that it makes the trigger much better and your group sizes will go down accordingly.
Thats a fairly bold statement dont you think?
The only thing the apex sear does is make the gun SLIGHTLY easier to shoot during slow fire accuracy drills due to the lack of over travel and thus less sight disruption on less than perfect trigger presses.
IF you know how to run your trigger it doesnt really matter what trigger characteristics you've got under the hood. Yes, trigger characteristics help but here's a perfect example of a "long" reset, long throw trigger, HK's LEM system that ALOT of people seem to be rocking quite well.
Better triggers shine in better shooters hands. Hand someone an Apex Trigger and a stock M&P that doesnt know reset from over travel and they're not going to shoot any better. If anything, the lighter trigger pull can help create a flinch.
Apex parts are fantastic, Randy is a boon to the M&P but lets not make blanket statements like that please. :confused:
The apex is a very nice upgrade (affordable too), but like others said it is not necessary. My M&P shoots great without one, and the trigger smooths out with use.
Ideally, you could try a box stock M&P and one with the APEX kit installed side by side and go from there. Having said that, while the M&P trigger is not “match grade” have confidence that it's reliable as is. For me the stock trigger works, so an APEX kit is on the back burner as a want; another want is a good set of night sights, funds permitting. A definite need was a more secure grip and so I stippled the front and back strap with my neighbors soldering iron. Now that was a huge improvement over the stock gun.
Food for thought...
http://www.defensereview.com/smith-wesson-sw-mp-pistols-for-competition-and-personal-protection-an-in-depth-military-operatorcompetition-shooters-analysis-photos-and-video/
I've had my M&P9c for about 2 years with about 15k rounds thru it.
Although I've felt gritty triggers in other's pistols recently, mine had no problems. Could be that I didn't know any better and the first few K rounds smoothed it out. I have fired one M&P with a Burwell trigger job and I was impressed. I just liked the firmer feel of mine.
I agree with Jay_Cunningham's post about the after market parts. Plenty out there for Glock and now M&P and I'm sure they are quality parts from the ratings I read online. Not being a competition shooter, I just think training to adapt to what you're presented with is better for me.
Dave
Food for thought...
http://www.defensereview.com/smith-wesson-sw-mp-pistols-for-competition-and-personal-protection-an-in-depth-military-operatorcompetition-shooters-analysis-photos-and-video/
Can't say he really adds anything for info regular shooters of the MnP don't already know, but he covers my exact opinions and experiences here:
The Wrap Up:
"Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm pistols have now replaced all my other pistols for both competition and daily carry, including concealed carry (CCW). If you are looking for a reliable, smooth-shooting double action polymer framed pistol M&P’s are second to none."
And for me, that's actually a tad depressing when a sub $400 gun with a few $$$ tweaks is probably 90% the shooter of my collection of $2.5k+ 1911s of which I have invested in the platform a whole lotta $$$.
The M&P's work just fine right out of the box and the current stock triggers are quite acceptable, especially as they smooth out over 1000 trigger pulls or so. Having said that, I prefer to run the Apex Duty Kits in the M&P's that I use; David Bowie's trigger jobs are also very nice.
I like the fact that the M&P is perfectly usable right out of the box, just like a Glock; I also enjoy that I can easily modify M&P's into a modern, modular, reliable, inexpensive alternative to a 1911. In fact, 2011 will be the first time in 25 years that I will not be carrying a 1911--instead I am going to use an M&P45 w/ambi-safety.
I would just go with the DCAEK and forget about it. It makes a WORLD of difference, and at $90, it is probably the best money I have spent on a handgun. If you want to remedy the crunchiness only, just go for the striker block kit. I believe the re-worked geometry of the sear and sear spring and the heavier trigger spring are what helps with improving the reset.
I agree with this. My M&P was OK out of the box, and I realized it would probably get better with shooting. I just didn't want to wait. I didn't add the return spring when I installed the DCAEK. The result is a nice clean trigger pull of about 4 lbs with a slightly indistinct reset. That doesn't bother me enough to add the spring and add to the pull weight. I have a RAM that I haven't installed yet. I'll see what that does.
Food for thought...
http://www.defensereview.com/smith-wesson-sw-mp-pistols-for-competition-and-personal-protection-an-in-depth-military-operatorcompetition-shooters-analysis-photos-and-video/
What the heck is a 40 degree trigger bar? Is he talking about the MA trigger/trigger bar?
I wasnt aware the geometry of those bars was different in regards to the shepherds hook.
Sorry, this is a bit off topic.
John_Wayne777
11-15-10, 16:46
I've tried just about every tweak for the M&P on the market...but some of the best shooting I've done has been with a bonew stock M&P right out of the box. Add one like the Apex kit are nice and I'm a repeat customer of Apex...but they aren't necessary. To be honest, the M&P as it comes from the box right now with the upgraded sear is good enough so that custom work isn't something I would bother with. I'd just shoot the gun stock.
Shoot the gun bone stock. Learn what you like and what you don't like (if anything) and then make adjustments.
C4
JW,
Ive compared some "new" sears, ie sears out of current production run guns to older 2008 era sears and i cannot tell a difference other than materials used or the current plating process being different than the older sears.
Am i missing something here? The geometry seems the same between all generations of sears.
My understanding is there is, and the gun I just got back from being "fixed"came with, a new sear housing block, with a new plunger and stronger/larger spring. This is meant to fix the fail to reset or "sear flutter" issues.
Perhaps I'm an uncouth knuckle dragging mouth breather of a shooter, but some of the disdain for the M&P trigger is perplexing. I've never really noticed "grit", hitches and other such phenomena.
My original M&P.45 had a heavy trigger, but I shot it well in a LAV class, LAV even commented on it, said other then the weight it wasn't a bad trigger.
The other M&P's that have come and gone, had OK enough trigger. I have two with pro sears, and I don't think its much of a difference.
The long and faint reset has never hindered me(unlike the BHP), I just don't see it.
snatching the trigger is snatching the trigger.
This is after shooting tuned 1911's for about 20 years and stock Glock triggers for 10 of those.
Amazingly enough, some people think nothing fo $100 trigger jobs on $1000 1911's.
The only "modification" that for me, is necessary would be Tru-grip grip tape, and even that, isn't all that necessary.
Bob
My 9c needed nothing to shoot well and run reliably out of the box, and I shot it this way for a couple thousand rounds. However, personalizing it with night sights, Apex sear, USB and a recontoured/stippled backstrap brought it to a whole new level for me. The total package is now greater than the sum of its parts.
SpookyPistolero
11-15-10, 18:56
Many thanks guys. The above advice jives with my personal philosophies of not fixing what ain't broke. Just wanted to make sure there weren't known reliability concerns that I'd otherwise be ignoring. I've got a good chunk of trigger time in my life, but I'm hardly a grandmaster and unlikely to notice even not-so-subtle trigger improvements during use. I'm going to pick up a stock MP9 with night sights next week, I'll let you know how things go!
G34Shooter
11-15-10, 22:11
I've been spoiled by nice triggers, and I would not have bought a M&P without some type of trigger mod. For the craptastic trigger my FS9 had, it's a night and day difference to the polished DCAEK and RAM I have in there now.
No. Mine is stock.
The only thing I plan on changing is the sights. It currently does not have night sights.
To me, the bolded portion, in a defensive pistol is non-negotiable. Maybe a BUG, but not a main carry gun.
I think you absolutely need night sights, that to me is something that is just a must.
Honestly, if you're on the fence about it, here's what I'd suggest, all of the APEX Stuff is drop-in, my dad just bought an M&P9, all (DCAEK, they came out with the RAM a day or so later :laugh:)APEX'd out from Grant, and I do like that he sells the kit below retail, and doesn't charge you an installation fee.
I trust the guy, that'll be three guns we've bought from him, great guy.
I'd say if you're on the fence, buy a stock (with night sights, or if not for self-defense, up to you) M&P, and then change it.
Me? Personally, I was going to get the Apex DCAEK without using it based off of everything I've read... Now since my Dad's compulsive and buys the guns I want (it's weird... this is literally gun number 5 he's done this, We have two of the exact same guns, for 5 different guns), I'll go shoot his next time I'm in town and make an unbiast decision (even got the Warren Tactical sights I wanted). :laugh:
I carry Glock as my daily carry and my M&P is more or less a fun gun for me.
I compare the two guns to cars. My Glocks would be like my truck that I use and abuse and the M&P, like my 1911, would be like my sports car I tinker with on the weekend. That's not to say my M&P would not make a good pickup truck because it would, BUT I just haven't found anything to make me want to replace my Glocks so I use my M&P for fun and to tinker with.
John_Wayne777
11-16-10, 06:59
JW,
Ive compared some "new" sears, ie sears out of current production run guns to older 2008 era sears and i cannot tell a difference other than materials used or the current plating process being different than the older sears.
Am i missing something here? The geometry seems the same between all generations of sears.
Whatever the physical differences are, (which other than color I'm not really qualified to speak on) the quality of the trigger pull on the newer silver-seared guns is dramatically better than it was when I bought most of my M&P's.
I picked up a M&P 40 Fullsize that I ordered from Grant yesterday. I ordered the pistol with:
1. Apex DCAEK
2. Apex RAM
3. Ameriglo Proglo front sight and plain rear sight
I put about 250 rounds with no malfunctions through it last night, in between qualifying the Midnight Watch officers. First, out of the box: EXCELLENT TRIGGER, clean crisp break, clean audible and tactile reset. Apex stuff just made a very ergomanic pistol that much better. It is a very accurate pistol.
So to answer the original poster's question; Yes, the upgrades made a big difference for me. I have the sights I want on the pistol, and I have the trigger set up just right straight out of the box.
Does anyone know if the RAM affects the trigger pull weight, in any way?
Does anyone know if the RAM affects the trigger pull weight, in any way? I have one in my FS9, while the reset is'nt as strong as a Glock's, it is a huge improvement over what I had,(none) and it is useable, But to answer your question, no, it dosen't affect trigger pull weight,
luke2-2008
11-16-10, 19:19
All three of mine have gotten better after 500 or 600 rds;)
Thomas M-4
11-16-10, 19:57
The only real modification that the M&P "needs" out of the box is a damned reprofile and polish of the striker block.
I dont know why in the world Smith designed the striker block to look like a square mushroom. It is the single biggest detractor to the S&W trigger. Once that block is rounded off the stock sears really arent that bad, especially in a service pistol.
Exactly my thoughts also all that crunch comes from that dang striker safety block. I would have thought that S&W would have changed it by now.
Is the reset with the DCAEK as short as a Glock?
Is the reset with the DCAEK as short as a Glock?
I just compared my M&P 40 with DCAEK and RAM to my Glock 35. To the bare eyeball, they are about the same. The M&P may be just a bit shorter to reset.
crazymoose
11-17-10, 04:02
Is the reset with the DCAEK as short as a Glock?
To my precisely calibrated finger, they feel about the same, the Glock being perhaps a bit shorter, and definitely much more apparent, even compared to a RAM-equipped M&P. However, as someone who really values reset as a trigger characteristic, the M&P with the Apex sear and RAM is definitely passable in this department. With the Apex, the trigger's break is definitely much crisper and cleaner than with any Glock trigger I've felt. If you're someone who likes the Glock's trigger (I am), I think an Apex-kitted M&P is worth a try, if you can find one to shoot.
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