View Full Version : Best AR
No Bananas
11-15-10, 16:14
If you had to pick a rifle for hard use, that's you'd trust in a course and with your life. Which of these would you choose. I guess features have to enter into the equation. If you're spending this much $ on a rifle, might as well get what you like. I'll be adding the PWS brake to whatever one I decide on.
The SR15E3 is priced pretty well, with tons of features. The trigger is a great plus. Although I'm not crazy about a proprietary bolt, it does seem to function well. I'm a righty so I don't care for the ambi lever sticking into my right index finger. I will be replacing that. Only has a one year warranty. How heavy is it? I can't find this info.
The Noveske has the awesome tough and accurate barrel (the CL light barrel, not the stainless). I'd have the PWS brake perm attched (by Noveske). It is nice a light, tough Vltor upper, and the hefty rail with a heat sink. The entire rifle is too pricey. I'd buy the upper and build a lower. Has a lifetime warranty.
I like the SCAR. Light, very accurate. Durable. Pricey, though and forget spare parts. But it has a good factory warranty.
No Bananas
11-15-10, 17:13
BTW: forgot to change my title. Wanted it to be best rifle, not best AR. :rolleyes: Sorry.
Dionysusigma
11-15-10, 17:19
I voted without looking, and this is what the poll looked like afterward:
http://oi52.tinypic.com/2qtj1g9.jpg
:D
I voted for the E3. It's one of the few rifles that has ever made me drool, and one that I plan on getting for myself some day.
I like the SR-15 a lot. But I probably bet money the SCAR could keep pumping round after round better. They should construct the buttstocks better though. That was one of the few things we were breaking often.
KAC...Its been around for awhile and has a great rep. Some spare parts may be proprietary like the bolt and gas tube but much easier to get than scar parts. All great rifles though. Can't go wrong with any of them. I just believe the KAC is the greatest expression of ARs and overall the aftermarket world is far more expansive for the AR than the scar.
-Jax
ETA: This may seem contradicting to what I just said but I believe there is no ONE great rifle made specifically just for you. That is what makes the AR family so great. You can make it into EXACTLY what you want and you, at this time, cannot do this with the scar.There are others made by DD, LMT, BCM, etc that you did not factor in. Not to mention building one part by part with the exact components you want. Whatever you do please be patient. Take your time on here and read. Gather as much knowledge as possible before grabbing your credit card. Knowledge before buying will save you much pain, time, and money.
No Bananas
11-15-10, 20:37
NONE of the above.
I'll bite.
I'll bite.
He likes Olympic........
.....JK :D
No Colt, LMT, BCM? I own a KAC and a Noveske and they are very nice rifles but for the situation you asked about I would pick my BCM mid length lightweight.
No Bananas
11-15-10, 20:54
No Colt, LMT, BCM? I own a KAC and a Noveske and they are very nice rifles but for the situation you asked about I would pick my BCM mid length lightweight.
OK, please tell me why you'd pick the BCM middy lightweight over the Noveske and KAC. Thanks.
No Bananas
11-15-10, 20:55
Anybody who has a bead on a reputable place with a good price (trying to do under 2K) for the KAC, please IM me. Thanks.
OK, please tell me why you'd pick the BCM middy lightweight over the Noveske and KAC. Thanks.
Because I have the most trigger time with it, and more rounds through it than the others. I just returned from a class and put about 1300 rounds through it in 2 days. It is a mess but runs perfectly. It weighs 1/2 lb. less than my KAC and a little more than that for the Noveske. Both of the others are 16" and I prefer the handiness of the 14.7 with permed battle comp. I'm not selling either my KAC or my Noveske. There is no right or wrong answer. It's just an opinion. FWIW the BCM is on a Noveske lower.:D
Another "none of the above".
I'd choose either a vanilla Colt 6920, or a DD or BCM light weight mid length, and spend the rest of the money on ammunition/training.
But then to me, an AR is a tool, not a toy.
i don't buy into KAC's theories... they don't even HPT.
NRW makes great barrels, but aside from their impeccable finish standards, the rest of the gun isn't built any better than a number of guns that retail for half as much money
SCARs arent ARs.
---
since the criteria is "trust my life to" "hard use gun," i'd go with a vetted Colt as well, if i have to chose a complete gun. runners up would be BCM and LMT
Alaskapopo
11-15-10, 22:10
Putting my vote in for Noveske. I must admit I have never owned a KAC.
Pat
I already made my vote, with my own $$. It starts with a "C" and ends with a "olt":sarcastic:
i don't buy into KAC's theories... they don't even HPT.
NRW makes great barrels, but aside from their impeccable finish standards, the rest of the gun isn't built any better than a number of guns that retail for half as much money
SCARs arent ARs.
---
since the criteria is "trust my life to" "hard use gun," i'd go with a vetted Colt as well, if i have to chose a complete gun. runners up would be BCM and LMT
My "twice as expensive" noveske also came stock with rails and an awesome stock. a nice grip too.
Thats where the excess comes in. compare apples to apples.
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=lcb-556&cat=137&page=1&search=&since=&status=
https://policeguns.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=30_250&products_id=5640&osCsid=9o8n85kq1iifgcnpo6f2q0t7s4
noveske was cheaper by some change. Any questions?
My "twice as expensive" noveske also came stock with rails and an awesome stock. a nice grip too.
Thats where the excess comes in. compare apples to apples.
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=lcb-556&cat=137&page=1&search=&since=&status=
https://policeguns.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=30_250&products_id=5640&osCsid=9o8n85kq1iifgcnpo6f2q0t7s4
noveske was cheaper by some change. Any questions?
it's not about cost- i know i brought cost up, but that's not actually the point. the point is that noveske makes nice barrels, and puts them on a stag platform. batch testing and basically commercial OEM parts.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
11-15-10, 23:52
Out of those three, the KAC. Kac apparently needs some love right now on the boards, and they deserve it.
Kac apparently needs some love right now on the boards, and they deserve it.
why, and why?
jumbopanda
11-16-10, 04:47
I'm sure KAC makes great stuff, but I just can't imagine it being vastly superior to a Noveske. Personally I would rather have a non-proprietary bolt.
No Bananas
11-16-10, 07:21
SCARs arent ARs.
See my second post. I meant to change the title and forgot.
KAC gets plenty of love around here.
jasonhgross
11-16-10, 08:46
For myself, I nearly went with KAC but the proprietary bolt put me off. I am sure its wonderful and rarely/never fails, but if you want a rifle for life, the low cost of a BCM MPI spare bolt compared to a spare KAC bolt really put me more in favor of something else. For the record, I went Colt and BCM.
No Bananas
11-16-10, 09:04
I think I found the weight. If this is correct, it's 6.75 lbs. Pretty darn good!
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5TA5KUuAKds/SULT6lPVk3I/AAAAAAAADhQ/IpFvzGsG-TE/s1600/Capture.JPG
No Bananas
11-16-10, 10:21
How does the KAC stack up on accuracy?
Nom de Forum
11-16-10, 10:40
From what little I have read the E3 bolt design is apparently superior in strength and longevity to Milspec. I wonder if controversy about the design will be occurring in a few years since all manufacturers may be using it or a variation. I also voted with my wallet last August when I bought an SR-15 from Scottsdale Gun Club. Before making my purchase I had the opportunity to handle in an afternoon one or more examples of product from just about every AR-15 manufacturer. Living in Scottsdale makes this very easy to do because across a sidewalk from SGC is US Autoweapons and three miles away is Bear Arms. These three dealers always have a large and diverse selection. Of all the AR-15 variants available, nothing equaled the handling and features of the SR-15. I have shot a few rounds through other peoples various ARs both DI and Piston over the years and many thousands of rounds through my own previously owned Colt AR-15A1/A2s and U.S. Army M16A1/A2s. The last three months of shooting confirmed in my mind that nothing feels as good shooting as the SR-15. Today or tomorrow I will test out my new Surefire Mini suppressor with the hope that reliability will not degrade. By the way, going the Trust route seems to be the quickest way to get the stamp as I received mine two months to the day of application.
I voted Noveske because I own one, but not the others. Wouldn't mind adding a KAC to the collection someday, but not sure how I feel it not being 100% interchangeable with my current stable. If/when SCAR becomes more established, and prices more relatively reasonable, then maybe they go on the wish list too.
Can the KAC proprietary bolt be pulled out and replaced with a regular AR15 bolt if the user desires to (or needs to)?
No Bananas
11-16-10, 10:56
I almost forgot about this. One big factor for me is compatability with PMC Bronze 55 gr. I almost excusively use this as plinking/shooting ammo. I'm sure it is recognized as a lower power/pressure ammo. I've heard that KAC has opened that gas port on their newer rifles to accomodate weaker ammo. However, I don't want to be SOL if I end up getting an older rifle that does not have the gas port opened up. Thoughts?
Can the KAC proprietary bolt be pulled out and replaced with a regular AR15 bolt if the user desires to (or needs to)?
I've read before on this forum that you can use a standard AR15/M16 bolt in an SR15 if you have to, but it's not recommended to do it for extended periods. I have no firsthand experience with this.
it's not about cost- i know i brought cost up, but that's not actually the point. the point is that noveske makes nice barrels, and puts them on a stag platform. batch testing and basically commercial OEM parts.
I only own one Noveske, the rest are colts.
Noveske is really about there barrels and there QC. I have one of the few rifles I think has ever left Noveske with a QC error. even then it was minor and could be fixed myself. My next rifle will be a Noveske. primarily because of his customer service; He REALLY took care of me when he caught wind of my rifles issues.
I would argue that Noveske still stands up with Colt, LMT and BCM. At the same price point ill keep buying Noveske. Cant really compare it to the KAC fairly.
The commercial OEM parts argument can be made for several manufactures.
I agree mostly with your standpoint though.
IrishDevil
11-16-10, 13:55
I say "none of the above", though I voted KAC as that's the one I would select from those 3.
Things I don't care for:
KAC- I don't like the flip up front sight on the URX, I can live with the KAC trigger and bolt as parts are available, but they aren't my favorites
Noveske- I don't care for the rail, or the carbine gas system
SCAR- the buttstock "seems cheap", i'd like to see it beefed up, the forend needs an extension to work for me, and parts seem to be unavailable, it also needs a "match" trigger pack
I own a KAC and is a great rifle. I'm not concerned about the proprietary parts based on the fact that they have not had a single customer owned bolt break since the sr15 hit the market. I wouldn't be concerned about gas port size either. The liklihood of getting an older rifle with the smaller port is low if you buy one new and even if you did, in the past KAC has opened up ports for guns that had issues with lower powered ammo. I shoot lots of low powered Centurion through mine with no issues.
Now, with all that being said, if I could only have one rifle for the rest of my life, I would choose BCM or DD in a midlength configuration and a couple of spare BCM bolts. Colt would definitely be as bombproof as a AR can be, but I don't care for the CAR gas length.
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Alaskapopo
11-16-10, 15:49
I say "none of the above", though I voted KAC as that's the one I would select from those 3.
Things I don't care for:
KAC- I don't like the flip up front sight on the URX, I can live with the KAC trigger and bolt as parts are available, but they aren't my favorites
Noveske- I don't care for the rail, or the carbine gas system
SCAR- the buttstock "seems cheap", i'd like to see it beefed up, the forend needs an extension to work for me, and parts seem to be unavailable, it also needs a "match" trigger pack
Umm Noveske offers mid length and intermediate length gas systems. Their carbine gas system is only on the 14.5 inch and shorter barrels.
Pat
IrishDevil
11-16-10, 16:15
Uhmm, I was commenting on the ones he has listed. I'm well aware of Noveske offerings, I'm an owner.
You should buy the one that you like. As long as you buy KAC, Noveske, Daniel Defense, BCM, LMT, or Colt you will have a rifle that will probably outlast you. I currently own all but a Colt, and I've owned a few over the years. All are middies except my LMT, which is an SBR, so carbine gas. Buy the one that appeals to you the most or comes with many of the features on it that you like. They all offer something a little bit different than the others. There are things I like on all of them and things I don't like on most of them.
No Bananas
11-16-10, 21:15
How does the E3's accuracy stack up against the Noveske Light rifle's accuracy?
My Noveske is a SS 16" Recon so it's not really a good comparison. What are you going to do with it? My KAC regularly shoots under 2 MOA. That's with an Acog on it. I have gotten several sub MOA groups but don't shoot for groups with it once I settled in and zeroed everything.
No Bananas
11-16-10, 22:39
It will probably be for more quick defense type shooting to 300 yds. Definately not a bench rifle. Just curious.
mkmckinley
11-16-10, 22:53
SCAR- the buttstock "seems cheap", i'd like to see it beefed up, the forend needs an extension to work for me, and parts seem to be unavailable, it also needs a "match" trigger pack
If you don't like the factory furniture the aftermarket seems to be kicking in for the SCAR. Here are a couple products that caught my eye.
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=XBTSCAR2&groupid=259
http://soldiersystems.net/2010/10/04/vltor-ar-stock-adapter-for-the-fn-scar/
mkmckinley
11-16-10, 22:56
I voted Noveske because that's what I bought but a personally spec'd BCM would be hard to beat.
I have owned an N4 and it was very similar in accuracy to my SR15. Depending on the ammo used, they were pretty much even in terms of accuracy. I could get 1.25 - 1.50 moa out of either rifle easily. The N4 isn't a barrel designed for pure accuracy, so don't be misled. It is durable and accuracte for a chrome lined barrel, but not a sub-moa tack driver.
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NONE of the above.
Same for me.
Its hard to comment on rifles that I only have a few hundred rounds through (SCAR/SR15)... so with that said I have to choose the Noveske.
I would set it up differently than your choice but thats simply a personal preference ...
m1a_scoutguy
11-17-10, 11:01
I have never owned or shot any of the above,,"but" to play along if I was going to BUY a complete rifle I would probably go with the KAC !! :) I have read alot about them & listened to guys on here talk about them & I believe they are great rifles !!! But with all that said,,I would much prefer to buy all my parts & piece's and put one together. :D But then thats just me,,,and there would be a good chance that there would be a Noveske BBL on it,,but then maybe a Centurion,,similar specs,,but less $$$ !! Ah,,decisions,,decisions !! :)
No Bananas
11-17-10, 11:39
I'm surprised that the SCAR 16 has received so few votes for hard use. Yes, I know that SOCOM (or whatever special forces) rejected it. But I thought that was largely tied to cost. Even if it is tied to cost, I'd imagine they would have sprung for the SCAR had it shown a true advantage over the M4 platfrom. They did spring for the SCAR 17s.
No Bananas
11-17-10, 11:46
I know some folks have remarkes that hthey would get none of the above. I understand. Colt and other top tiers are top notch. Part of the reason I chose these is for the additional features. KAC's right side bolt release, trigger, sling attachments, sights, bolt system, and HF barrel, and URX rail make it very appealing to me beyond the top tier category. I used to have a Noveske upper and was very impressed with it. Unfortunately, I got the recon barrel, and it just ended up being too heavy for my needs.
I may decide to do a hybrid. That is, buy a KAC lower and slap a Noveske upper on it:ph34r::dirol:
I know some folks have remarkes that hthey would get none of the above. I understand. Colt and other top tiers are top notch. Part of the reason I chose these is for the additional features. KAC's right side bolt release, trigger, sling attachments, sights, bolt system, and HF barrel, and URX rail make it very appealing to me beyond the top tier category. I used to have a Noveske upper and was very impressed with it. Unfortunately, I got the recon barrel, and it just ended up being too heavy for my needs.
I may decide to do a hybrid. That is, buy a KAC lower and slap a Noveske upper on it:ph34r::dirol:
if we're gonna start talking about putting together the perfect gun, my answer would go from "colt," to something that contained zero colt parts. that changes everything.
my problem with each of these manufacturers is that they each do one or two things that i consider fatally wrong, in a fighting gun. if you remove those one or two things, they jump up to "cream of the crop." i would imagine that a LOT of people would consider a kac lower, noveske upper, and bcm bcg about as close to a perfect firearm as you're gonna get. i'd leave out the kac lower, myself, since i don't use nor want ambi controls... but a noveske CHF barrel could very easily top out any list i'd make.
No Bananas
11-17-10, 11:59
if we're gonna start talking about putting together the perfect gun, my answer would go from "colt," to something that contained zero colt parts. that changes everything.
my problem with each of these manufacturers is that they each do one or two things that i consider fatally wrong, in a fighting gun. if you remove those one or two things, they jump up to "cream of the crop." i would imagine that a LOT of people would consider a kac lower, noveske upper, and bcm bcg about as close to a perfect firearm as you're gonna get. i'd leave out the kac lower, myself, since i don't use nor want ambi controls... but a noveske CHF barrel could very easily top out any list i'd make.
Out of curiosity what is the fatal flaw of the KAC?
Out of curiosity what is the fatal flaw of the KAC?
proprietary parts, they don't HPT, and all those ambi controls are just more failure points, in my opinion. am i pissing on KAC? no- they're just not my thing.
I went with KAC mainly just because im in love with them.:laugh:
i like my retro 603 , m16 upper, no-dak lower.
its mine.
its what i have.
it's paid for. :)
peabody
This is a great read since I am currently looking at replacing the upper on my 6920. Nothing wrong with it, I just want a midlength system and possibly 14.5" barrel. I am not sure yet what upper to go with. This rifle needs to be as reliable as one can get since it will be my patrol rifle. I have been looking at the DD's and an SR15 upper. KAC will give me LEO discount on one so thats a big plus! I like all the customization DD offers. As far as Noveske goes, I just dont like their rails. I wold reconsider if I could get one of their rifles with a midlength and a DD lite rail.
By the Way I have to keep my 6920 lower on this build to make my dept happy, they only allow personal rifles as long as it is a COLT or a RRA.
I dont mean to hijack the thread, I am just torn with this sdecision.
No Bananas
11-18-10, 06:28
This is a great read since I am currently looking at replacing the upper on my 6920. Nothing wrong with it, I just want a midlength system and possibly 14.5" barrel. I am not sure yet what upper to go with. This rifle needs to be as reliable as one can get since it will be my patrol rifle. I have been looking at the DD's and an SR15 upper. KAC will give me LEO discount on one so thats a big plus! I like all the customization DD offers. As far as Noveske goes, I just dont like their rails. I wold reconsider if I could get one of their rifles with a midlength and a DD lite rail.
By the Way I have to keep my 6920 lower on this build to make my dept happy, they only allow personal rifles as long as it is a COLT or a RRA.
I dont mean to hijack the thread, I am just torn with this sdecision.
You might consider having a look at Centurion Arms. Their barrels have a 1 MOA gaurantee (with match ammo) and they sell complete uppers w/ 12" DD lite rails. They have 14.5 & 16" barrles w/ a middy gas system. I doubt that anyone will dispute the quality of their barrels. Yes, they are HPT, MP, LCD, OPP, TCB, and PYT tested.
http://www.centurionarms.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_images.tpl&product_id=47&category_id=17&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=47
I'll say 'none of the above'. There are plenty of carbines that are up to hard use. Best is subjective.
No Bananas
11-18-10, 09:42
I posted this poll for these three choices. All are widely respected as top tier. There are many features of any and all rifles that ultimately fall on preference. In my review, most based on my preferences, I have chosen these three rifles and asked what folks would prefer of these three. Some folks post "I choose none of the above." I didn't designate a choice for this. If you wouldn't prefer any of them, then don't vote, and there's no need to post. If you have a critique of the rifles in question, the information is most appreciated. Thanks.
I normally would have voted for the SR-15 as being the "best" for most people, but given the parameter of "hard use," you're throwing some dynamics into the mix.
If you're going to continually run your gun hard, then chances are something is going to break at one time or another. Given that, the Noveske is the only rifle that utilizes widely available parts and is much easier to service.
Therefore, I voted for the Noveske.
Nom de Forum
11-18-10, 11:40
In my opinion the concern over proprietary parts is overblown. If you are running a gun hard you are probably to busy at the time to replace any parts because you are taking fire. What you want is a gun that has the lowest probability of parts failure. It appears the SR-15 has this advantage over other ARs. If you are someplace where running a gun hard is probable, you should not have gone there without a supply of the parts most likely needing replacement after you have survived. It is my understanding parts are readily available from KAC and in a pinch a conventional bolt assemble can be used. I do not think SpecOps personnel who are frequently far from direct support maintenance would be using KAC rifles if they shared the concerns I see some posters expressing.
mkmckinley
11-18-10, 13:50
What special operations unit uses a 5.56 KAC?
No Bananas
11-18-10, 14:01
These are excellent points. Kevin Boland has been very responsive to the questions I've asked. I've read that the KAC bolt will last a minimum of 20K rounds. Pretty good. Won't I outshoot a barrel by that round count? In an e-mail from him, he said that they last closer to 30-40K. Wow, that's a long time. Still sooner or later it will need to be replaced. It's my style to have a back up, so I asked Kevin what the cost is of a spare stripped bolt. He said it's about $250!!:bad::fie: That's just the stripped bolt, mind you. No carrier or field kit parts included!!
What I really need to ask myself here is. Is the modified KAC extractor more effective, and the tougher bolt more reliable and durable that it is worth the extra$. The efficacy of these parts, if they are really more reliable, will be difficult to determine. I mean, whose really done a big study/test on it. However, i don't doubt their longevity. If I only need one spare bolt for the life of the rifle, maybe it's not a bad deal.
Another concern I had was the gas block. however, I understand that it is press fit, and they put rocksett on the screws. Should stay in place. A bear to get off.
I think that it's pretty cool that the whole piston thing (SCAR) isn't regarded as necessary for a hard use gun. I have a piston kit on one of SBRs, and I would not say that it is more reliable than my DI ARs. The only advantage is that it is easier to clean.
What special operations unit uses a 5.56 KAC?
I'd like to know this too. In fact, the only active KAC rifle in use (that I know of) is the 7.62mm SR-25, and even then, it's standard issue, not a Special Forces-exclusive item. The 7.62mm rifles do not see the same firing regimens as their 5.56mm counterparts, as they are used primarily in sniper applications. Therefore, the use of the SR-25 does not correlate into the SR-15 being "equal" in terms of using it for active duty.
im sure there are some KACs in use... look hard enough, and you'll find some special procurement of just about anything hiding in the shadows.
however... how many colts are there in special operation's hands compared to however many KACs? just because some unit has a particular weapon in their arsenal doesn't mean jack shit, when we're presenting evidence to support our purchases. personally, i don't give a flying truck what "SpecOps" does or uses- not only am i not SpecOps, but we must remember that special operators have do not by default have any kind of expertise in weapon design or manufacture. how many combat arms soldiers have you heard say things to the effect that the AR platform in general is worthless, and that the AK is some kind of masterpiece of ballistic engineering, and similar such ignorant bullshit?
BushmasterFanBoy
11-18-10, 14:30
I'd pick the SR15, but you said "hard use" which implies a certain preference for durability over smooth and efficient function. While the SR15 is a fine rifle, the SCAR is built like a brick. The carrier assembly, extra-simple charging handle, etc. seem to make a very robust package.
The SR15, while enhanced in comparison to other AR's, is still bound by the limits of the DI platform (which are minimal for anyone but the most maintenance-free end user, but still, you said 'hard use') when it comes to lubrication, parts breakage, etc.
So, given your criteria which implied a use schedule with an emphasis on reliability, I chose the SCAR. Not my pick over a DI AR, but I certainly would think the odds of one running off-the-shelf for a few thousand rounds without a parts breakage is better than DI guns that can break bolts after 5-10k rounds. Not an issue for me personally, but again, its your criteria, not mine. :)
Nom de Forum
11-18-10, 15:58
From the recent posts it appears my last post was provocative. I do not know of any SpecOps "Units" that use a 5.56 KAC. My posting states SpecOps personnel. SpecOps personnel have used KAC 5.56 rifles. If you want names either ask KAC (good luck) or hope someone who served since KAC 5.56 rifles became available makes a posting regarding his personal use of the rifle. It has been a long time since I spent anytime near Smoke Bomb Hill but one thing remains the same: SpecOps personnel sometimes use non-standard issue weapons and they influence the decisions made on adoption of new weapons technology. I think this will all be OBE in a few years if the AR platform remains standard issue because the E3 system or something very much like it will probably become standard.
Black Jeep
11-18-10, 16:02
Not that I have any legitimate experience to base my vote on, but it's the one I would want most of the three; KAC.
No Bananas
11-18-10, 16:12
This is interesting:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=9912
... SpecOps personnel sometimes use non-standard issue weapons...
And that sums up why it doesn't matter. I can find photos of "personnel" using DPMS', that doesn't make them good rifles. Proprietary parts are a killer for general issue weapons as they are next to impossible to service without a good supply chain from the manufacturer. Just look at the MP5 and hate many have for it because of "proprietary parts and supply."
Though it's not by any means a golden rule, wide-spread adoption of a system ensures its serviceability as the weapon system will most likely be supported at least until the end of the contract for that weapon. Conversely, a non-issued weapon that uses proprietary parts is an added liability, as there's no guarantee the company or the support for it will be around in the next decade (or the next year, for that matter).
Nothing against the SR-15, but that's just the nature of things.
No Bananas
11-18-10, 17:28
Here's another interesting thread.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=53458&page=2
I think the gas port issue has been addressed. I don't put wolf in any 5.56/.223 I won. One thing that caught my eye was No.6's post. He was having trouble with some Pmags fitting and functioning. He goes on to say
"Contacted KAC, no response.Tried to buy a spare bolt and carrier assembly and other spares, again met with a lack of response from KAC. As in no response to several emails and phone calls."
Every manufacturer is bound to have a problem or lemon. That isn't an issue to me. What is an issue is how they handle it. Kevein Boland has been very responsive to my questions. however, if this is how I would be treated by the main office in Florida, they can forget it! I won't spend $2K on any gun to be ignored when I have factory warranty issues! I can buy an HK for that:sarcastic:.
jonconsiglio
11-18-10, 17:49
I have experience with the three you listed though I don't own the Noveske. I do have a Noveske lower I use often, but that doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot.
The SCAR is a great rifle. My main reason for buying it was just to see what it was all about, to be honest. I didn't really think of it as my go-to gun or for classes, but I really enjoy shooting it. I do have to be honest here and the main reason I still have it is because of the premium I paid to get it and don't want to take such a hit.
The SR15 is an extremely agile gun. It balances perfectly and is extremely quick on transitions compared to other 16" guns that I've owned. Some talk about the proprietary parts being a negative, but I don't see it as an issue. Buy an extra bolt if it's that much of a concern now so you don't have to wait a day or two for it to come in. With the SR15 CQB coming out next year, I don't see it being as much of a concern since it will be one more e3 gun in the group. This is just for me. I understand the concern if it's an issued gun.
As for Noveske, I look at them more for an accurate rifle. Not saying they can't be as agile as an SR15, but if I was looking for more of a precision rifle, then I'd look at Noveske first. I hope that came out right.
Of course, Bravo Company shouldn't be left out of this list, but since you didn't ask I won't go into it other than to say, for me, the KAC and BCM are the two choices for guns I'll use in carbine classes and as "hard use" guns.
I shoot a couple thousand rounds a month. Things break now and then in the process. My only real issue about the SCAR (other than it being so tall and not having a longer hand guard) is that I can't walk into the local gun shop and buy a new stock, rail, bolt, etc., not to mention it's different than all my other rifles in 5.56. Having said that, I've yet to break a part on the SCAR, but I also haven't run it as hard as the others.
I have nothing negative to say about the SR15, it's a tough gun and shoots great. Adding a BattleComp or Triple Tap makes it that much better.
What I really need to ask myself here is. Is the modified KAC extractor more effective, and the tougher bolt more reliable and durable that it is worth the extra$. The efficacy of these parts, if they are really more reliable, will be difficult to determine. I mean, whose really done a big study/test on it. However, i don't doubt their longevity. If I only need one spare bolt for the life of the rifle, maybe it's not a bad deal.
I think it is worth pointing out that III has posted that KAC has yet to see a broken E3 bolt from a customer's rifle. Yes, the E3 bolt is expensive, but with the 20K round warranty and that kind of track record, I'm hard pressed to call it overpriced. I must admit that initially I had the opinion that the proprietary bolt was a detriment to the SR15, but I'm now convinced that it is a true advance for the AR system.
My favotite rifle is a RRA midlength with a BCM BCG. Lightweight barrel and MOA accurate. I have fired thousands of rounds out of it without a single malfunction.
I also have a BCM midlength, but the barrel is a bit heavier and still not as accurate as either of my RRA rifles with M193 and M855. Cost me in the neighborhood of $800 for the RRA. I spent the extra funds on ammo, optics, sling, etc and range time. Try and keep the rifle light. You don't gain much accuracy out of a heavier barrel until you get running hot. 3-4 mags quickly and the barrel will begin to warm and POI will drift. The heavier barrel absorbs and dissipates the heat better. How often will you throw 120 rounds downrange at once. Not easy from a semi-auto unless your one of those guys shooting at 25M. WTF???? If you miss a silhouette at 25M you need glasses bro. Learn some fundamentals before you start runnin' and gunnin'. You will appreciate body mechanics, position, breathing, individual posture, develop instinctive natural point of aim, etc. Makes the tactical exercises merely going through the motions until they are reflexes.
I don't see the real improvements in these other types to ligitimize the extra costs involved. It's all about putting rounds on target and the AR-15 does this extremely well. The real improvements in the AR platform have come in accessories and optics/mounting options. That's what really matters.
Oh well..let the bashing begin. No making fun of my avatar though. I love my M14s.
Nom de Forum
11-19-10, 23:02
There are other makes of ARs that people have shot "thousands of rounds" through with no problems. The same can be said of the SR-15.
There are ARs more accurate than any SR-15. I don't see any posts claiming the SR-15 is not functionally accurate enough. No MOA or Sub-MOA chasing required.
There are not many posts claiming other rifles have better handling qualities and standard features than the SR-15.
Standard parts are certainly more readily available, but KAC parts are reasonably obtainable. There is no excuse for not having them if your life depends on your rifle.
No manufacturer has addressed the main complaint about ARs as thoroughly as KAC. That complaint is reliability and durability. Can anyone really argue that the component improvements made by KAC are equaled in inherent strength, reliability, and durability by any other manufacturers components?
All things considered (reliability, functional accuracy, handling, strength, durability) the SR-15 is the best all around AR.
No manufacturer has addressed the main complaint about ARs as thoroughly as KAC. That complaint is reliability and durability. Can anyone really argue that the component improvements made by KAC are equaled in inherent strength, reliability, and durability by any other manufacturers components?
you can make this statement about any manufacturer that claims they do some super mojo voodoo to their guns.
you either buy KAC's theories or you dont. you apparently do- but don expect everyone else to.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
11-20-10, 00:18
im sure there are some KACs in use... look hard enough, and you'll find some special procurement of just about anything hiding in the shadows.
however... how many colts are there in special operation's hands compared to however many KACs? just because some unit has a particular weapon in their arsenal doesn't mean jack shit, when we're presenting evidence to support our purchases. personally, i don't give a flying truck what "SpecOps" does or uses- not only am i not SpecOps, but we must remember that special operators have do not by default have any kind of expertise in weapon design or manufacture. how many combat arms soldiers have you heard say things to the effect that the AR platform in general is worthless, and that the AK is some kind of masterpiece of ballistic engineering, and similar such ignorant bullshit?
This is true, as Id say at least 80% of the US military knows only what theyre told about a weapons system and nothing else. Many times what they are told is max effective distance, nomenclature, and function and thats all. By trusting a run of the mill service man or even sometimes an upper tier serviceman, you may be doing yourself a disservice. Of course this isnt always the case, as some are specialized in many weapons platforms (see Marine Gunner).
Now, onto my original post. It was more poking fun at KAC for a comment in another thread. Although I do believe they have earned our respect for what they do in the Mil/LE world, I dont believe that they hold any special spot over other MFGs in the CIV market. Out of the choices on the board, Id take the Noveske. All 3 are great platforms, but Im very familiar with the DI AR, and Ive got spare sparts lying around in abundance now.
I dont know how much I buy into the whole SHTF thing, but I do have about 10gal of water and 2 MRE boxes in the garage just in case. So, to me, I make my weapon choices off of commonly available platforms. AR15s, Glocks, and R700s. I wont go as far as to say that an SR15 would suck in the apocalypse because I wont be able to get a spare BCG off of a Horseman of the Damned's dead body, but I will say I like to be able to pick up spare parts at the local gun store.
Nom de Forum
11-20-10, 04:43
Not being a superstitious man prone to relying on magical thinking for explanations or comfort; I do not believe in anyone’s “super mojo voodoo”. KAC certainly appears to have gone beyond mere “theories” with their performance. The KAC system is not a marketing gimmick.
Based on my own personal experience in the military, I cannot agree that "at least 80% of the US military knows only what they are told about a weapons system and nothing else". That is an under estimate, 95+% is more accurate. With many of the remaining 5% thinking they know things that just aren't so. However, it is surprising how many SpecOps personnel U.S. and foreign who have a choice frequently chose an AR platform to take in harms way. Accuracy, fire power, and acceptable reliability in a light weight package is very appealing when on the far side of nowhere.
The whole SHTF theme I see frequently mentioned is given far more attention than it warrants in comparison to more realistic use scenarios, i.e. recreation and immediate short-term self-defense. The most probable SHTF reality is not “Mad Max” or “Red Dawn”, it is short-term disruption followed by recovery. If the SHTF to the point that massive extended firefights are occurring the initial survivors will find out what combat veterans know: there will be plenty of weapons and weapon parts available for pick-up from their recently departed owners. Entering any fight with the most accurate,reliable, and durable weapon is good life insurance. I believe KAC is selling somewhat better insurance than the rest. The other two options in the poll are certainly good enough, but the poll asks for the best.
Here's another interesting thread.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=53458&page=2
I think the gas port issue has been addressed. I don't put wolf in any 5.56/.223 I won. One thing that caught my eye was No.6's post. He was having trouble with some Pmags fitting and functioning. He goes on to say
"Contacted KAC, no response.Tried to buy a spare bolt and carrier assembly and other spares, again met with a lack of response from KAC. As in no response to several emails and phone calls."
Every manufacturer is bound to have a problem or lemon. That isn't an issue to me. What is an issue is how they handle it. Kevein Boland has been very responsive to my questions. however, if this is how I would be treated by the main office in Florida, they can forget it! I won't spend $2K on any gun to be ignored when I have factory warranty issues! I can buy an HK for that:sarcastic:.
I wouldn't put too much stock in one complaint. I'm not saying that No. 6 misrepresented any thing about his experience, but for every story like that, there are 10 or 20 positive stories that go unreported. I have interacted with III, KevinB and KAC customer service on several occasions and have always been surprised at the way they went above and beyond to help me and I'm nobody special. I have never seen another company that provides the kind of service exemplified by KAC employees, and I'm not the only person to experience this. I can assure you that they stand behind their product and if you ever have an issue, contact Kevin or III and they will be very responsive. (Tell me another company that size where you have that kind of access to upper management, I can't think of one.)
Regarding Pmags, I've never seen another complaint of compatability with the E3 lowers and the two I have owned both work fine with Pmags.
Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
No Bananas
11-20-10, 19:08
Why no love for the SCAR? At this time it hasn't even broke 17% of the vote. The SCAR has developed a strong reputation for accuracy and dependability. Yes, yes, we've heard of the extractor breakage at about 15,000 rounds. Not bad, really.
The ergos are pretty darn good. Yes, I think a few points on the stock could be stronger. Are there weak points on the SCAR that's giving it such a low poll score or is that we are used to the AR15 platform and prefer what we know.
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