A Slice of Humble Pie

[Chameleox]

For me, that is.
Back in April of this year, I chimed in on a thread about accessorizing patrol carbines. The thread progressed into a discussion about using compensators, specifically the PWS556 (http://primaryweapons.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=9&idcategory=6). The thread in question can be found HERE (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=51507).

My contention at the time was that the muzzle blast, from the side, was negligent, considering that most patrol officers don't operate out of a stack, with muzzles near heads, and since the benefit (better muzzle control) outweighed the negatives (concussive side blast to fellow shooters, noise). Add this to the fact that the gun would still be loud regardless of what you put on the end of it (except maybe a can)

Well, today I finished off my last bite of pie. I reinstalled an A2 flash hider on my 16" patrol carbine. Here's why...

A few months ago I was shooting from rollover prone on a dirt and gravel range. I found that I was kicking up a lot of dust, not enough to block my vision (see below), but it was kicking back into my eyes and around my eyepro. I also noticed that the PWS was kicking back more than just dust, but also some smaller rocks. I found this to be a bit of a hazard to my vision, especially if I had to go to rollover prone on the street, without eyepro. Strike One.

Fast Forward to 2 weeks ago. We were working on break and rakes and porting at SWAT. One of our techniques involves 2 shooters covering into a window from the outside. Without going into TTPs, this obviously necessitates a crisscrossing field of fire. So, the curtain gets ripped out, my partner and I scan into the room, and engage two targets. I could see the effect of the muzzle blast on the sides of the window (made from wood and a cheap tarp), and I could see my partner backing up, likely due to my muzzle blast coming sideways at him. One factor involved is that I'm the only person on the team that uses electronic earpro, but that's another story, and only half the issue (don't get me started). Strike Two.

Later that day, we were shooting at 50yds at night, assisted by spotlights 50 yards back. I was shooting from prone, unsupported. The supplemental lighting wasn't helping too much, so I lit up with my mounted light (X300). After the first shot, I completely lost my visual of the targets downrange, and had to wait about 3 seconds to follow up. Then (you guessed it!) I shot again, and again lost my vision in the dust cloud. Everyone else was hitting with a respectable cadence (everyone else uses A2 FHs). Strike Three.

I noted in the linked thread that I didn't regard the side blast as much of an issue since I don't regularly do entries, but now I could plainly see that in my assigned roles on the perimeter, or in an open air, mid range engagement (parks and parking lots-we have 'em), the PWS wasn't as much of a solution to my problems as I thought it was.

End result: I'm going to sell it, and buy training ammo. Good product, just not for me. I self admittedly bought it as a gear/technology fix for a training issue. Good product, just not for me.

[DHart]

Chameleox... thanks for sharing that. Nothing like direct experience to shape and refine one's individual choices and requirements. What works well for some won't for others.

[lethal dose]

Thanks for the real world feedback. It's always great to hear from someone who actually uses the gear and gives a valid review of it. Really enjoyed reading. I've always been a fan of flash hiders over muzzle brakes on a duty-type rifle.

[Chameleox]

Thanks for the feedback; I just wish this experience didn't cost me as much money as it did.

I should add one thing about the muzzle flash. The PWS did suppress the muzzle flash surprisingly well, but with the ammo that we've been using, this hasn't been much of an issue with the A2 hiders, or even with 20" bull barrels.

[Robb Jensen]

Thanks for posting this.

This is why I advocate using the KAC Triple Tap and the very similar BattleComp 1.0 and 1.5 comps. Both are very similar in sound and pressure to an A2 comp.

[markm]

USMC03 runs that PWS beast on some of his guns... and he like it. I'd say that the same can be said about a 10.5 gun.

I had to do the criss cross/high-low sector of fire with a guy using a 10.5 a few years back. That was just as bad as a 14.5 with the PWS.

[Surf]

Good to see a post like this one. It is nice to see someone follow up with their actual experiences with various items and be able to eat a slice of that humble pie so to speak. :) Learning on your own might be expensive, but doing something for yourself and learning from first hand experiences are more valuable sometimes than just taking someones word for it.

I was a big opponent to the PWS in that original thread and explained why I felt that way. Your own real world experiences pretty much followed exactly what our experience and testing also showed. I still stand behind the comments I made in that thread about the PWS and Surefire and other brake devices at that time not being suitable for duty use. I very much dislike working around someone with a PWS and I haven't found anyone who enjoyed it or wasn't disrupted by it to some degree, usually most are to the very much dislike it end of the spectrum. And these are generally highly experienced shooters who work primarily in a CQB environment full time professionally.

I will have to say however that since that time, I have heavily tested the BattleComp with many thousands of rounds, with probably around 150+ pure shooting related training hours since I received a couple of test units. One test BC unit is on a 14.5" and one is on a 10.3". Training was done heavily in a CQB / advanced combat shooting environment to include open air and enclosed shoot houses, outdoor ranges, indoor ranges, low / reduced light, NVG shooting, rolling in the dirt shooting, over, next to and around other shooters, you name it. So far, from those devices that I have tested, I find the BattleComp to be the first brake type of device that I find suitable for my type of duty uses. Even those who I work around agree from a team member perspective, working around a shooter with the BattleComp is acceptable. It isn't just the shooter but the team members that matter also.

I will again echo what I said in the past thread, the already minimal recoil found in the AR/M4 is easily dealt with and greatly lessened with a good shooting technique. Therefore one is usually better served by a good Flash Killing device than a brake on a duty weapon. Again however, the BC seems to do a good job at mitigating the downfalls of the PWS and other traditional brakes. Also the standard birdcage is a great FH device. My other FH favorites are the usual suspects, the Vortex and Blackout.

Thanks for sharing your experiences, eating humble pie and sharing it with everyone is not an easy thing. ;) It may help others in the future.

[.45fmjoe]

What about active shooter training/scenarios?

The muzzle is right next to the guy in the lead... That would really suck for him.

[lethal dose]

What about active shooter training/scenarios?

The muzzle is right next to the guy in the lead... That would really suck for him.

Agreed. I'll just say that I think it's boarderline ignorant to show up to a fighting/defensive carbine class with a brake or unsupressed sbr. ;) Not really, but it does suck being the guy next to/in front of either or.

[joe-bananas]

My worst day of a three-day Magpul class was the day I spent betwixt two gents with SBRs outfitted with PWS556s.

Nothing prepared me better for the next two days than spending the first day between two guys with SBRs outfitted with PWS556s.

I love my Vortexes, KFHs and KX3s.

[Eurodriver]

I too have eaten a slice of that pie, Surf guided me to the battlecomp on another forum, but seeing that BCM didn't offer the 1.5 yet, I couldnt wait and ordered the FSC556. Its a good brake, for sure. Its a good muzzle device in general for kneeling, running and gunning in most situations. But when you get indoors the muzzle concussion feels like its going to rip your lungs out (And I was shooting it!) as well as the dust signature in the prone are two big problems.

My newest upper has an A2X on it, and I am selling the rifle with the FSC556. Not solely due to the brake, it has a 25lb troy rail up front and I don't like the optic choice, just easier to sell it to a buddy, but the brake on it is definitely something that I won't mind parting with.

[LRB45]

Don't want to sidetrack this thread too much, but was wondering how the AAC Brakeout compares to others. Does it produce the same results as the PWS?

Also thanks for letting us know about your experience, you probably will save someone else from going through the same thing. The PWS really does look interesting but from what I have read, it has way too many disadvantages.

[Chameleox]

I should point out that this isn't supposed to be a complaint about the compensator itself; but a realization that it did not work for me and my envisioned or actual needs. If you're using it in the same arena as I am, be warned. I don't jump out of low flying aircraft, pop up from under water, assault mountain strongholds or head shoot terrorists from behind a gas mask while using a faux British accent. I'm just a cop. And at that, I'm not in a city or department where slinging a long gun is a daily occurrence. However, I try to take it as seriously as possible for when that day comes. This particular piece of gear did do what it was supposed to do to my satisfaction (improve follow up shot speed, reduce muzzle flash), but at the cost of other variables (disrupting nearby shooters, increased dust signature).

As noted in my OP, the first improvement, muzzle control and shot speed, is more of a training issue, and Id rather have more ammo for training, so it translates to whatever system or muzzle device I'm using. The second advantage, flash, is largely moot due to the ammo (TAP 75gr has low flash). So, the way I saw it, I didn't gain anything.

As a side note of interest, at least two team members from our brother team in this jurisdiction have these comps on their entry guns. One guy has it mounted 90 deg. off, so the blast goes up and down as opposed to out the sides. Not sure how this works. Another guy, whom I respect, has one on his 11.5" BCM. His rationale is that the recoil impulse feels more like he's shooting suppressed (the whole team has Gemtech Halos). This allows him to train with the same recoil, but preserving his can. Food for thought.

[Surf]

I agree Chameleox and I am also not downing the PWS for what it is either. For all intensive purposes it is a muzzle brake and it accomplishes that singular task pretty darn well. As you have clearly found it just has too many draw backs for your use. For most people who put on a uniform it is not the best idea, no matter what your job assignment or how large your department is or is not. IMO it is not a suitable tool for a duty application. It isn't the tool that is the problem, just not the right one for the job at hand. I could drive a nail with a wrench but a hammer is better suited.

I know I have a lot of tough conflicting opinions on this site and other sites but I try to call it like I see it from my own personal experiences in how I use this and other weapons, accessories and gear. I don't care if someone is a long time, or popular member of the site, I will state my opinions based on actual or personal experience and I will not just regurgitate internet mantra. I call it like I see it in a professional manner and if it conflicts, it is what it is. I will also say that I have changed opinions on different things also. I pretty much said that I would never use a compensator on a working AR/M4 type carbine. Well I am now deploying a BattleComp on a duty weapon and I try to play by the saying "Never say never" and "Don't always say always". I too have had several portions of humble pie. :)

[joe-bananas]

The PWS556 tends to be a little bit brutal in the muzzle blast department, it's true. There is a bit of a following for the PRI/MSTN Quiet Comp, which does not have nearly the blast as does the PWS556. I have a Noveske Leonidas, 7.62, with a 13.5-inch barrel and his KX3 attached at the end. It's quieter on the firing line than all the .308s that I've encountered, including post-ban FALs, HK91s and even a Ruger M77 in .308.

[BufordTJustice]

Personal experience is the only way to know if a piece of equipment works for you.

I fall into a different category. I'm an LEO in Florida in a fairly large agency. I find that when I go to use a long gun, it's purely in a patrol capacity and I am rarely directly next to another Deputy while shooting. I've found that, when my buddy shoots my PWS equipped 14.5" BCM middy next to me...it seems no worse to me than having a 12g being shot next to me using a slug. Having to shoot next to an 870 is routine for me in training and I've learned to cope. Dealing with me (or my buddy's) carbine w/ a PWS has not been an issue. For me. Muzzle devices are like underwear tho...just because it works for me, doesn't mean it will work for others. I, for one, am a VERY happy camper w/ my permed FSC556.