View Full Version : RDS with Magnifier vs 1-4x Iluminated Scope
OK, I searched for this... I really did... but all the searches bring up threads a year or more old and it seems like all the latest interest is in the 1-4x Illum. scopes, and the RDS w/ 3x mag. has gone to rest.
I'm interested in finding out if there has been some change in that time that has shifted the balance away from the RDS w/ 3x magnifier, or if the 1-4x is just the new "thing".
has there been some undeniable revelation in the mean time?
wow, this really generated a lot of interest :lazy:
TriumphRat675
11-19-10, 13:17
I've never used a variable power scope so I can't speak about that, but my 3x magnifier was a giant waste of money. It was expensive, it's heavy, I have absolutely no real-world use for it, and in the Larue pivot mount it blocks part of my view when it's pivoted away from the RDS.
If I ever have a need for variable magnification in the future I will get a variable powered scope. They are more compact than a RDS/magnifier combo and provide better magnification. I imagine they're lighter than the combo too. Hearsay is that the Aimpoint mag glass isn't up to the same standard as the vari-scopes, either.
YMMV.
Hearsay is that the Aimpoint mag glass isn't up to the same standard as the vari-scopes, either.
I don't agree at all. There are so many different vari scopes on the market, at so many different price points, that statement is really hard to quantify without talking about a specific model or scope. Did you own an Aimpoint magnifier? The one I looked through was very impressive.
What I think has a lot of people wrapped around the vari scope thing is that there are so many cheap magnifiers out there. Sticking a Mako 3x in a Larue mount does not equal using a Aimpoint 3x in a Larue mount.
For the OP...
I don't think the RDS/Magnifier setups have gone to rest at all.
RDS are still a very popular option, and adding a magnifier is a way of getting a very affordable way to get some magnification behind it.
My fustration in 1-4x scopes is that no one, outside of S&B, really makes an ideal all around scope, and S&B the high end on cost, which to me, makes it less than ideal. Every model on the market trades features. So it seems every time I have bought one, I'm having to decide on what features I want, what features I can get, and what features I can afford. The only reason the S&B isn't ideal is the cost. The ony reason. I looked into their LEO pricing, calling and speaking with one of their reps. While very generous, its not the mystical huge discount people would have you believe...its still pretty expensive.
For the money you spend, I haven't found a scope better than the Trijicon TR24 series, in specific, the TR24G.
I drove to Midway and picked up a Leupold Mark 4 MR/T 1.5-5x with the CMR2 reticle. Sent it back the next day. No where close to the quality of the TR24, which is almost $400 less...
The Leupold just had the feel of a low end scope that someone had dumped some money into. Kind of like putting custom wheels on a junker. The turrents had solid clicks, glass was clear...but the illumination was horrible and the exit pubil was worse or atleast as bad as my Leatherwood CMR, which was only $250. The CMR reticle in the Leatherwood was WAYYYY better, as opposed to the CMR2 reticle in the Leupold.
I guess this is the peril of buying stuff from a company that makes multiple product lines. That same tube as the Leupold I bought is used in $300 scopes. So optically, outside of better glass in the more expensive versions, how much better of a scope are you getting?
S&B, Trijicon, Nightforce, Elcan, Aimpoint et al, these guys don't make low end stuff. I am really disappointed with Leupold.
I'm done with illuminated reticles. The technology just isn't there for what I'm looking for.
I had sent an email to Leatherwood when I had my CMR because the illumination of my reticle wasn't exactly even. I was told the reticle is illuminated by painting the reticle with a reflective paint. Then an LED bounces off the paint and you get glow...more or less, very simplified i'm sure.
But this process leaves you with a reticle that is lit uneven, or in the case of my Leupold, looks animated. Hard to explain, but I hated it.
The 1/2 MOA dot inside of the CMR2 reticle is worthless when the illumination is turned on. The reticle is way too tight. It looks good on the diagram, but in use its very compact. When its turned on, you kind of just have a 7.5moa doughnut.
Everyone makes a huge deal about etched glass reticles. Leupold had an etched glass reticle...it sucked. The TR24 doesn't have one, and probably the best looking reticle. And being Trijicon, I don't doubt the durability for one second.
All that being said...my next buy will be a Aimpoint M3 w/ Magnifier in all Larue mounts.
I'm kicking myself because a few days before I bought the Leupold, I was just thinking about ordering instead the Aimpoint M3 from Larue. I had to work a lot of overtime and give up a lot of free time to pull together $1100 for the Leupold.....for shame Leupold. :nono:
Long story short, I went looking for a magnification solution...and came back right where I started...the red dot sight.
TriumphRat675
11-19-10, 14:02
I don't agree at all. There are so many different vari scopes on the market, at so many different price points, that statement is really hard to quantify without talking about a specific model or scope. Did you own an Aimpoint magnifier? The one I looked through was very impressive.
I do own an Aimpoint magnifier. It seems well built and I have no complaints about the glass. I have heard that the high-end vari-scopes have better glass quality than the magnifiers, including the Aimpoint. I really have no idea, but I also really don't care since the disadvantages I found the magnifier to have for me (i.e., weight, bulk, uselessness, getting-in-the-way) outweighed any potential advantages. My rifle is set up strictly as an HD gun though.
What price point would you consider high end? I would completley expect that a S&B would have better light transmission than a Aimpoint magnifier.
If your sole use is HD, a magnifier is a complete waste unless you have some kind of compound where you can make 100 yard shots.
The longest distance is a hallway in my house, and I don't need a magnifier for that.
To me, where magnifier's shine is you can take it off when not needed, or when its use isn't anticipated. So if my rifle was by my bed in a HD role, I wouldn't even have it mounted. If I was at a 3-gun match, I would have it on there and pivot it in as needed.
Scopes will be better at being scopes than will rds/magnifiers. The best field of view of any of the optics i've tried by far and away was the TA31F. Just crazy wide. But, there were other trade-offs...
I just switched over to running both....a Burris Tac30 1-4x24 (wide FOV, very clean and sharp daytime/nighttime illumination with no crappy flare btw) with a Primary Arms microdot. Plan on zeroing it this week so I'll see how it goes. Just playing around with it, I like it so far having somewhat the best of both variations. It's not high end, but for the price, it does really well.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1096/5155758047_9712c3fda5_z.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1228/5156367398_0ed0a6cea6_z.jpg
I'm into my first week with a Meopta K-dot illuminated 1-4.
So far it's the best all around optic for a M4 I've ever used.
I prefer it to a Aimpoint/magnifier and the ACOG.
Being a true 1x with a very bright reticle it's almost as fast as a Aimpoint up close and you have illuminated variable magnification up to 4x with a quick turn of the dial.
With around 3" of eye relief it's very AR friendly and the 112' fov at 100 yards is nice.
I'll get a better feel for it after tomorrows 3-gun match (should have targets from 5-200 yards).
From prone today I was ringing the 6" diamond at 200 yards at a decent pace and didn't feel that my speed suffered much on the close in targets compared to my Aimpoint.
Hello,
I have both a 1-4x Trijicon and a EoTech w/ 3x combo. Honestly, I never find myself using the 3x piece. I can recommend the Trijicon, I have been very happy with mine it's priced right too.
Alaskapopo
11-20-10, 03:00
REPEAT POST of mine. Did not feel like typing it all over agan.
Pros and Cons
1. Red dot with Magnifer.
Pro you still have a easy to use in akward position red dot when the magnifier is flipped to the side. The red dot is faster slightly at close range because of this. Pro's this is also the least expensive set up and if you have multiple rifles with red dots you can share a magnifier with all of them saving on cost. ( I did this for a while)
Cons. You have no easy way to shoot past 300 yards even with magnification due to having no hold over points (except on one Eotech model) and no fast way to dial the scope in on the fly. Also the red dot is not as sharp as a scope's reticle and makes it harder to shoot precise groups. (at least in my experience) Also you only have 1x and 3x or 4x nothing in between. In the unlikely event of a battery failure you are SOL or if you get nuked with a EMP your SOL.
2. Acog (fixed optic with magnification) and mini red dot.
Pro's You get a bullet drop compensator and an excellent medium range set up in the ACOG and and you get a excellent close quarters sight in the red dot. The optics back each other up so if one were to fail you have the other ready for instant use. Both overlap. Meaning you can use the ACOG at close range in a pinch and you can use the red dot out to 200 if needed on full sized targets. Also transition from scope to scope is faster than rotating the power ring on most scopes even with a cat tail. I tried this set up for a while with a TA33 and a T1 Aimpoint.
Cons. No in the middle magnification and having to get used to canting the rifle to shoot the off set red dot or having to raise your head up to shoot a piggy backed red dot. If you get nuked with an EMP your mini dot is going down same if the batteries die but hey your ACOG will still work. Going around right side corners with the off set sight leaves you weapon showing sooner because its canted.
3. Good variable power scope like a Swarovski Z6i 1-6x BRT.
PRO's on 1x its nearly as fast as a red dot or just as fast depending on who you talk to. The top end is 6x wish is better than most ACOGs except the largest models. You get all the power ranges in between. 1,2,3,4,5 and 6. Scope has a bullet drop compensator in mills. (you need to figure out your own loads dope). Natural head position no having to shift head or cant gun just shot and dial in the magnification as needed. If batteries die no big deal you still have a usable black reticle.
A good low power variable is 95% as good as a red dot at close range and its 90% as good as higher power tactical optics (2.5-10x scopes, 2.5-8 etc) at longer range. Generally its a great do all optic.
Alaskapopo
11-20-10, 03:05
My fustration in 1-4x scopes is that no one, outside of S&B, really makes an ideal all around scope, and S&B the high end on cost,
.
Actually while its expensive the Swarovski Z6i 1-6 BRT is a great all around scope that I am dubbing the Short Dot Killer. It has more magnificaiton great glass and a bullet drop reticle and awsomely bright illumination. I love mine. S&B no longer has the title of best low power variable.
Pat
I've had my K-Dot for two years and have used it for 3 Gun. I have no regrets. There are many more 1-4X options now than there were 4 years ago, but if I had to do it again, I would get another one.
I just don't need to spend $2200 for the Swaro.
For me, I see no point in using an RDS with a 1-4X. If I were running dual optics, I would have a higher power variable with more mag than 4X. However, the new 1-8X scopes may provide enough mag to make running dual optics obsolete for most except for those who need more than 8X and a good close range optic.
I'm into my first week with a Meopta K-dot illuminated 1-4.
So far it's the best all around optic for a M4 I've ever used.
I prefer it to a Aimpoint/magnifier and the ACOG.
Being a true 1x with a very bright reticle it's almost as fast as a Aimpoint up close and you have illuminated variable magnification up to 4x with a quick turn of the dial.
With around 3" of eye relief it's very AR friendly and the 112' fov at 100 yards is nice.
I'll get a better feel for it after tomorrows 3-gun match (should have targets from 5-200 yards).
From prone today I was ringing the 6" diamond at 200 yards at a decent pace and didn't feel that my speed suffered much on the close in targets compared to my Aimpoint.
Singlestack Wonder
11-21-10, 18:05
I'm seriously looking at the Vortex Viper PST 1x4 for my next scope purchase. Great price with a capable CQB/LR reticule. The Vortex Razor HD matches other higher end scopes in clarity and performance, but the reticule choices don't fit my needs.
I have rifles with RDS and I have a 1-4 (not going to say which as I don't want this to turn into a vs. thread.
even on 1x setting, sometimes I have a second or two before I get correct head position to avoid the parallax issues, whereas with a RDS, if I can see the dot, it's GTG.
I have used the RDS to make COM hits on a silhouette target out to 100yds pretty easily but greater precision at extended range is hit or miss (pun intended...), not to mention target identification is lacking.
if you already have an RDS, I see the magnifier as being an add on that doesn't diminish the usefulness of the RDS. on a swing mount, it can be there if you need it, and not if you don't. since it does not have a reticle there is no issue with needing to return to zero. as was mentioned, you only need one and it can be switched to different rifles as needed. it can be removed and carried in a pouch and can double as a monocular for observation or quick target identification.
at the time, this seemed like the best idea since sliced bread. now, not so much. what changed?...
I'm seriously looking at the Vortex Viper PST 1x4 for my next scope purchase. Great price with a capable CQB/LR reticule. The Vortex Razor HD matches other higher end scopes in clarity and performance, but the reticule choices don't fit my needs.
and this adds to the discussion of 1-4 vs RDS w/ magnifier how?
have you tried the RDS/Mag combo and didn't like it? if you have never even considered it, why not?
Actually while its expensive the Swarovski Z6i 1-6 BRT is a great all around scope that I am dubbing the Short Dot Killer. It has more magnificaiton great glass and a bullet drop reticle and awsomely bright illumination. I love mine. S&B no longer has the title of best low power variable.
Pat
I haven't checked the pricing latley, but I thought these were in the $2000 range.
I looked at them before, the only thing I didn't like is the turrents.
If I where to buy a S&B, it would be the Short Dot II with the locking turrents and the FD7.
I also really like the red dot feature of the S&B. Having used an Aimpoint for years there was that common thread with what i'm used to...but alas, its out of my price range.
I just hope Trijicon stops sitting on their hands and has a new Accupoint for us at Shot 2011.....
Overall though, I've come full circle. Now I'm running a Comp M2 with a Magnifier in a Larue piviot mount.
Alaskapopo
11-22-10, 00:30
I haven't checked the pricing latley, but I thought these were in the $2000 range.
I looked at them before, the only thing I didn't like is the turrents.
If I where to buy a S&B, it would be the Short Dot II with the locking turrents and the FD7.
I also really like the red dot feature of the S&B. Having used an Aimpoint for years there was that common thread with what i'm used to...but alas, its out of my price range.
I just hope Trijicon stops sitting on their hands and has a new Accupoint for us at Shot 2011.....
Overall though, I've come full circle. Now I'm running a Comp M2 with a Magnifier in a Larue piviot mount.
With the bullet drop reticle I find no need for external turrets. Simple use the correct hold point for your load out to 600 or so.
Pat
is this right - using the RDS and magnifier, if you have a 2 minute dot and a 3x magnifier, would the dot cover roughly 6 inches at 100 yds?
I've got a 1-4 trijicon accupoint on my SCAR with the green triangle reticle, On the lowest setting it's basically a RDS with a smidge of distortion around the edge's, which you really don't notice unless your looking for it. on the highest setting, I can easily hit steel 4-500m round after round. It comes with turret covers, so it doesn't loose it's zero, just from rough handling. It has a manual adjustment for how much light the fiber optics get, so you can always get that crisp reticle for accurate shots. the glass is absolutely amazing, defiantly one of the best pieces of glass I've looked thru, and i've glassed alot of shit. I really wish they made a killflash for it, be able to take this bad boy with me on my next deployment. for $700-$900 (depending on where you go, and what sales you can snag) it's probably the best low powered optic on the block, in my opinion of course. It's currently sitting on an ADM Scout short/low which gives me a perfect cheek weld with my SCAR.
My $0.02 take it for what it is.
:big_boss:
is this right - using the RDS and magnifier, if you have a 2 minute dot and a 3x magnifier, would the dot cover roughly 6 inches at 100 yds?
No. The target is also 3x larger, so it has the same ratio of reticle to target, that wouldn't change.
The TR24G is probably one of the best optic solutions I've tried. Cost, performance, features, it's all there.
There is a company which makes various size kill flash devices for different scopes. Try googling it, I want to say it's Tenebrex ARD or something close.
I have an Aimpoint M4s and Aimpoint 3x magnifier, its a nice set up, but not even close to my TR24 triangle. I had 6 M4s set ups.
After I bought my first TR24 triangle, I now have 2 M4s, and 4 TR24's.
I have them on the LT 135 (1.93). Love'em.
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