Do I need a better trigger?

[ack495]

So I've have a LMT lower with their standard single stage trigger. It was ok, but it had a bit of grittiness, so I took it out and sent it to Bill Springfield based on all the praise I saw on different forums. This was a while ago, by the way. I've had it in now for about 9 months now. It's nice, smooth with no creep and a short reset. I had him take down to a 4lb pull and I'm sure it's probably right on. Dry firing it feels great. However, when I shoot it, sometimes it doubles once and a while, which really bothers me.

Also, I've really wanted to start shooting in some competitions but I worry about the trigger. I'm sure I could send it back to have it fixed. But I've asking myself lately, should I just spend the money on a higher end trigger, like a Geissele's? I am kidding myself trying to "polish a turd, but it's still a turd"?

After reading about the different models, it seems that S3G and SD3G, seem like the kind of triggers I would want. I've never tried a two stage trigger, but am open to suggestions if I should try the SSA. Are they worth the 200 or so bucks its going to cost? Anyone have experiences using both a high end trigger and a Springfield trigger?

[Mjolnir]

So I've have a LMT lower with their standard single stage trigger. It was ok, but it had a bit of grittiness, so I took it out and sent it to Bill Springfield based on all the praise I saw on different forums. This was a while ago, by the way. I've had it in now for about 9 months now. It's nice, smooth with no creep and a short reset. I had him take down to a 4lb pull and I'm sure it's probably right on. Dry firing it feels great. However, when I shoot it, sometimes it doubles once and a while, which really bothers me.

Also, I've really wanted to start shooting in some competitions but I worry about the trigger. I'm sure I could send it back to have it fixed. But I've asking myself lately, should I just spend the money on a higher end trigger, like a Geissele? I am kidding myself trying to "polish a turd, but it's still a turd"?

After reading about the different models, it seems that S3G and SD3G, seem like the kind of triggers I would want. I've never tried a two stage trigger, but am open to suggestions if I should try the SSA. Are they worth the 200 or so bucks its going to cost? Anyone have experiences using both a high end trigger and a Springfield trigger?

I'd try the Geissele SSA from personal experience. Two Stage 2.5# pull for the intial stage and 2# to complete the trigger pull; very positive trigger reset. If you choose to just pull through the trigger pull it's a 4.5#, CRISP trigger pull. Oh, did I mention that the final stage is bolt-gun-like? Yep. Reminds me of a Steyr SSG I once shot.

I cannot speak of the latest iterations other than they're probably outstanding. The SSA will probably suffice for 99% of the things you're likely to do with your carbine. If you decide that you don't like it I'll buy it from you.

I believe the SSA is worth the $170 I paid for them. Hell, I know they are worth it. It makes them a joy to play with.

NO DOUBLING [which could conceivably cause you some severe issues from overjealous BATFE and prosecutor(s)]. Dump those internals and start over. It's not worth the hassle.

[TehLlama]

I would concur that the SSA is worth a shot. There's plenty of them available right now that have been gently used since lots of folks have upgraded to the SSA-E and 3gun models.

There is a reason I've got 4 of the buggers installed right now.

[D. Christopher]

Listen to what Mjolnir said. Either take your AR to a gunsmith before you shoot it again or replace the trigger group if you feel comfortable doing the work yourself. Besides being dangerous in a number of ways, a weapon that doubles can get you into more trouble than you can imagine. Be careful and good luck.

[ALCOAR]

I'd try the Geissele SSA from personal experience. Two Stage 2.5# pull for the intial stage and 2# to complete the trigger pull; very positive trigger reset. If you choose to just pull through the trigger pull it's a 4.5#, CRISP trigger pull. Oh, did I mention that the final stage is bolt-gun-like? Yep. Reminds me of a Steyr SSG I once shot.

I cannot speak of the latest iterations other than they're probably outstanding. The SSA will probably suffice for 99% of the things you're likely to do with your carbine. If you decide that you don't like it I'll buy it from you.

I believe the SSA is worth the $170 I paid for them. Hell, I know they are worth it. It makes them a joy to play with.

NO DOUBLING [which could conceivably cause you some severe issues from overjealous BATFE and prosecutor(s)]. Dump those internals and start over. It's not worth the hassle.

Hehe.....don't call Mjolnir's bluff....he seems to be quite the SSA shark and indeed will prob. shark it off the EE from you:D

You hear about BAD struggling to release a perfectly safe 45 degree selector due to legality and potential lawsuits yet the Bill Springfield jobs are notorious for esp. double firing which is absolutely scary unsafe and yet to my knowledge no problems or worries on that front.

I personally feel that the SSA is the best hard use/duty/combat trigger for the AR platform and you will not find any trigger made with less reported malfunctions than the SSA. That said, whether you need a very clean breaking and predictable aftermarket trigger is up to you as you can obviously get by running a properly functioning G.I. spec trigger all be it gritty or unpredictable.

So I would def. get that double firing Bill springfield job outta your lower and first make sure you get a dead nuts reliable trigger and than secondly decide how much of a premium you put on a high end trigger unit that not only brings you the reliability but the clean break and predictability as well.

[payj]

Get the SSA you will like it alot. Very reliable trigger

[Brahmzy]

Wilson Combat TTU is my choice - have one in each of my ARs.
Precision drop-in trigger. Better feel than the G's IMO.

[kartoffel]

I don't know how many rounds were fired over that 9 months, but any trigger that doubles at all is no longer reliable. This is not meant as disrespect to Bill Springfield. That old trigger is simply worn out. The trigger job you bought may have accelerated its demise, especially if Springfield stoned through the case harden layer and did not re-harden the parts. Again, I'm not saying that's what Springfield did, but it is a common reason for shade tree trigger jobs to wear out prematurely.

If you take a lot of "meat" off stock trigger components, it's not that troublesome to re case harden it. All it takes is an acetylene or mapp gas torch and a tin of Kasenit :)
http://www.nolansupply.com/small_images/46844000.jpg

[johnnychimpo]

I have one of Bill's triggers in my gun. It would double as yours does. He offered to replace/repair it if I wanted.Bill explained how to fix this if I felt comfortable doing it. All that was necessary was to remove a small amount ( few file strokes ) of metal from the bottom of the disconnector where it sits on the back of the trigger. This allows the disconnector hook to pivot back farther to catch the hammer. Took me all of 10 mins to do and no problems in the 700 rds I've fired since then.

[operator81]

I contacted Bill Springfield a few years back about doing his work on my duty ARs trigger. All was well until I asked him to include a copy of his gunsmith credentials with my trigger so I could provide my Dept with his information should I use the weapon in a shooting. He told me he is self taught and therefore doesn't have any credentials or certifications. That was enough for me to stay away. The doubling trouble might have something to do with that.

[.45fmjoe]

I don't know how many rounds were fired over that 9 months, but any trigger that doubles at all is no longer reliable. This is not meant as disrespect to Bill Springfield. That old trigger is simply worn out. The trigger job you bought may have accelerated its demise, especially if Springfield stoned through the case harden layer and did not re-harden the parts. Again, I'm not saying that's what Springfield did, but it is a common reason for shade tree trigger jobs to wear out prematurely.

If you take a lot of "meat" off stock trigger components, it's not that troublesome to re case harden it. All it takes is an acetylene or mapp gas torch and a tin of Kasenit :)
http://www.nolansupply.com/small_images/46844000.jpg

It's pretty obvious that is what he does. I have read of many Springfield trigger jobs doubling over on ARF. The parts are hardened for a reason, and you're correct, they were shade tree 'smithed and made unreliable and most of all highly illegal. A rifle that malfunctions and doubles is a machine gun according to the ATF and subject to stiff penalties under federal law.

[bkb0000]

bill springfield trigger jobs are pretty notoriously unreliable.. i don't know what all he does to them, but i suspect simply putting an OEM trigger spring back in there would be a good place to start.

are you sure the weapon is actually doubling? or are you perhaps giving it a little unintentional bump-fire? light triggers with short resets can do this, and it can be hard to determine which it is. best way to tell is to simply firm up your trigger pull.. make sure you're following through with some decisiveness before you reset.

[kartoffel]

...and most of all highly illegal.

I would not go so far as to say it's illegal. Certainly Mr. Springfield's triggers do not double when they're still fresh. If the trigger wears over time and eventually doubles, only then are you in hot water with the ATF.

Really, unless the gunsmith advertises the doubling as a "feature" or makes some guarantee that the trigger fails to live up to, there's nothing illegal about his handiwork.

[ack495]

bill springfield trigger jobs are pretty notoriously unreliable.. i don't know what all he does to them, but i suspect simply putting an OEM trigger spring back in there would be a good place to start.

are you sure the weapon is actually doubling? or are you perhaps giving it a little unintentional bump-fire? light triggers with short resets can do this, and it can be hard to determine which it is. best way to tell is to simply firm up your trigger pull.. make sure you're following through with some decisiveness before you reset.

I was starting to think the same thing myself, because the pull is light and reset is so short. It happens at least once or twice when I'm at the range. I don't shoot a lot when there, maybe 100-200 rounds. I let a co-worker use it during our annual qual last spring and it happened to him as well. Our firearms instructor on my department always stressed to me to hold the trigger back and let it out slowly, but maintaining contact with the trigger at all times. Maybe this has contributed to the problem.

I probably will end up buying a SSA to try out, because the 4.5lb two stage, maybe better suited for my situation.

Unfortunately, I feel that I have lost a bit of confidence in the trigger. I'm starting to think the short reset and light break are not right for me as a duty trigger. Hmm...maybe it will make a great competition trigger, after all. Thanks for all the suggestions.

[shadow65]

Too many complaints about Springfields triggers for me to try one.
I would get the SSA.

[bigkracka]

I've found nothing more impressive than my Timney 3lb, and it cost less than any other brand. I don't get all the whoopteedoo about Geiselle, tried their SSA and it was quite heavy. Seems to be the tacti-cool kool aid of the moment.

[ALCOAR]

I've found nothing more impressive than my Timney 3lb, and it cost less than any other brand. I don't get all the whoopteedoo about Geiselle, tried their SSA and it was quite heavy. Seems to be the tacti-cool kool aid of the moment.

Perhaps you need to do less spouting off about Geissele triggers and do more reading about them.

If you had done so you would see that the SSA has a 4.5# break which obviously feels heavier than a #3.5 timney. Unlike the gaming trigger that the timney was designed to be, the SSA is a combat trigger built for reliability, durability as well as having a clean and predictable break.

If you want to woo'd by the G triggers feel wise than try a DMR or SD-E....then come back and talk about heavy kool aid G triggers.

[DSZM4]

The AR trigger lock time is super slow compared to others so yes run a different trigger if you want greater accuracy potental. The SSA is faster.

[jlrich]

Too many complaints about Springfields triggers for me to try one.
I would get the SSA.

+1 for me also

[.45fmjoe]

I would not go so far as to say it's illegal. Certainly Mr. Springfield's triggers do not double when they're still fresh. If the trigger wears over time and eventually doubles, only then are you in hot water with the ATF.

Really, unless the gunsmith advertises the doubling as a "feature" or makes some guarantee that the trigger fails to live up to, there's nothing illegal about his handiwork.

It doesn't matter to those douche canoes, if it doubles intentionally or not it's a machine gun and I would bet they will submit charges to the U.S. Attorney.

[markm]

I don't know why people send their triggers off to that joker. :sarcastic:

I'd bet 99 percent of his ARFcom customers couldn't shoot their way out of a wet paper sack anyway... and the reduced locktime on the hack trigger job is all for nothing.

[johnnychimpo]

I would not go so far as to say it's illegal. Certainly Mr. Springfield's triggers do not double when they're still fresh. If the trigger wears over time and eventually doubles, only then are you in hot water with the ATF.


Mine doubled right out of the package and into the lower. No probs like I said since the correction. I'm figuring slightly diff specs from his jig/lower & mine.

[ryu_sekai]

I would concur that the SSA is worth a shot. There's plenty of them available right now that have been gently used since lots of folks have upgraded to the SSA-E and 3gun models.

There is a reason I've got 4 of the buggers installed right now.

This SSA is good stuff