View Full Version : Trend away from quad rails to less-railed hand guards?
I see so many ARs with quad rails on them, acres and acres of rails that are just covered up with additional products (ladders).
Did the industry sort of steer buyers into thinking they need acres of uber expensive rails on all four sides of the hand guard? And then a bunch of plastic ladders to cover all those rails up?
I'm sure some guys make a lot of use of all that rail-age, and I can see how laddered rails can make for a good grip on the hand guard, but that seems to be a really expensive approach. I'm getting a sense that a lot of AR buyers are returning to the simpler, leaner, less-rail covered hand guards and that many experienced AR buyers are tending to steer away from quad rails.
If I'm reading it right, the pulse seems to be leaning toward the TRX Extreme, VTAC, and the Magpul MOE and away from quad rails. I'm quite content with a VTAC, TRX, or MOE myself and can't really see the attraction of quad rails. I could be missing something, though. :rolleyes:
Do you think there is a trend to move away from quad rails and return to less-railed hand guards?
It all depends on need. If you are a civilian and all you are doing is adding a light and VFG then you probably don't need it.
If you are doing something else having the ability to accessorize is probably a smart thing. It's like everything else AR related. It's all based on preference.
I cover my rails that are being used at the moment to prevent them from getting damaged.
I see so many ARs with quad rails on them, acres and acres of rails that are just covered up with additional products (ladders).
Did the industry sort of steer buyers into thinking they need acres of uber expensive rails on all four sides of the hand guard? And then a bunch of plastic ladders to cover all those rails up?
I'm sure some guys make a lot of use of all that rail-age, and I can see how laddered rails can make for a good grip on the hand guard, but that seems to be a really expensive approach. I'm getting a sense that a lot of AR buyers are returning to the simpler, leaner, less-rail covered hand guards and that many experienced AR buyers are tending to steer away from quad rails.
If I'm reading it right, the pulse seems to be leaning toward the TRX Extreme, VTAC, and the Magpul MOE and away from quad rails. I'm quite content with a VTAC, TRX, or MOE myself and can't really see the attraction of quad rails. I could be missing something, though. :rolleyes:
Do you think there is a trend to move away from quad rails and return to less-railed hand guards?
Yeah.... I'm just a simple ordinary citizen looking to an AR for home defense and pleasure shooting. A light, perhaps a T-1 and I'm done, as far as my needs go. I look at guns like the way Chris Costa has his set up with what looks to me like 5 lbs. of various gear hanging off top, bottom, and both sides and can't imagine using a gun with so much stuff hanging off of it. He obviously feels a need for all that high tech stuff (in addition to TWO flashlights-main and back up!) and no doubt knows how to use it well, but I just can't relate to it myself. Perhaps in time I will. On second thought... no, most likely not. I can see how some newbies might see all those possibilities and be motivated to quad-up and then fill the gun up with devices, but that is no doubt a trap that might be best to steer clear of, for some considerable period of time anyway.
Iraq... what is your primary AR and how is it set up?
Trend? yes. which means exactly jack except good marketing. The AR world is no different than any other male-dominated hobby where 5% actually use the products the way they were intended and 95% pretend to do so and just follow the herd (think I'm wrong? go to any truck or car or motorcycle forum and spend enough time to get a feel for the various members. or look at how few lifted Jeeps ever get anything more than road grime on them).
To be sure the lighter weight and user-defined rail location can be a benefit, mostly in terms of weight savings. However if you have a need to attach more than a few things the inefficient method of adding rails can quickly add up to weighing more than a quad-rail system. Additionally, if the end-user doesn't have the experience to know where they are going to want to mount things, having small sections of rail that requires them to un-bolt and re-bolt the rail sections when they want to move something to try a new setup or product can be a major pain in the ass. Taking the most basic example, the VFG, if someone has a tube system and finally gets out and takes a class, and in the course of that class finds that they think they would prefer the VFG further away or closer in, having only a short section of rail bolted up means, potentially, a whole hell of a lot of tinkering during the lunch break. A guy with a quad-rail and a Tango Down VFG simply slides it fore or aft on the bottom rail.
But is there a trend? Yes there is. I think it is largely due to the perceived weight savings more than anything else. Well, that and people identifying that there is a trend and simply following the herd. They also tend to be significantly less expensive, which is another strong motivator for a lot of people.
Yeah, having a VTAC I know that it is best used with a minimalist set-up and making changes is more time and effort consuming than one would have with a quad rail. I do like the slim form factor, simplicity, light weight, and relatively lower cost, though. And so far it meets my fairly simple needs fully. That could change in time, however.
This is all just part of the appeal to the platform... so many possibilities and such amazing versatility. Firearms lego on steroids! :laugh:
The weight savings really has a lot of appeal... unless it prevents you from being able to do something you want to do. Obviously, there's no perfect set-up and plenty of reasons for multiple AR owners to have different ARs for different applications.
variablebinary
11-17-10, 04:44
I think its a natural progression
5 years ago, there wasn't as much access to carbine classes, so there were less opportunities to really train and push your gear.
If you don't train, lots of things sound great in theory. Like a heavy middy barrel with full length rail
In practice, people that shoot a lot learn that lighter is better, so there gear mimics that realization. Also there is the reality that they won't need an IR targeting system, or a heavy barrel. Even VFG's have fallen out of favor. The end result is you need less rail too, so that goes as well
In the end is a very lean system with a light barrel, only enough rail to mount what you need, an optic and light.
Rather than just copying a SEAL's build from some pic on the internet, people are building exactly what fits their needs, and shedding the excess.
BlindSpooch
11-17-10, 07:32
I (as a newbie) have noticed a definite trend toward quad-rail alternatives. However, I see it more of a change in target markets as well as transition in product development than anything else.
From what I can tell, in past years it’s been about .gov/.mil contracts first and joe citizen has come after that. However, with the growing popularity of ar-15 platform rifles, companies are now catering to the civilians as well, and listening to their feedback in addition to those in the shit.
Joe citizen often has a completely different need than the .mil and even though the two often overlap and even innovate for one another (i.e. Magpul Dynamics), there are people that fall in the fringes and can finally be accommodated for. Super accurate match/hunting/varmint rigs are now available from any top manufacturer as well as LW profile barrels for those not interested in putting hundreds of rounds down-range of continuous fire or that just want to be able to have a fun/gingerly day at the range with the whole family.
Some of it also just comes down to looks and marketing; the “I gotta have what they have” mentality, and there is NOTHING wrong with that. If I had more money and could ‘justify’ it in my own mind, I would have a DD Lite 12 on my rifle in two seconds, those things are just sexy!
However, I think I’m going to be following the trend and going “Practical-Tactical” and giving myself a TRX Extreme for Christmas this year. All I want (not need) is a light free-float that I can attach a bipod to for bench shooting, but take off and ‘run ‘n gun’ in my backyard range with my .22 conversion kit for some good fun. Plus, they just look good and I’m not afraid to admit I sometimes buy things because I just think they look cool :cool:
arizonaranchman
11-17-10, 08:37
I've always kept my gear and guns simple. I like them SHORT and LIGHT and uncluttered.
C8 handguards here on mine. A flashlite is all I add and a single picatinny mounted on the front sight works perfectly for me on my mid-length AR's. The guns at work have railed handguards so the Surefire goes on the left rail as far forward as I can get it.
dieselgeek
11-17-10, 09:04
My quad rail is not cluttered, but I don't mind having the 12 inches of rail space. I have rail covers that came w/ it and if I were to ever need to add something other than an AFG, and a light I know right away that I have the room for it. I also have my eotech just breathing over onto it over the YHM riser. It's just how I roll though. YMMV
About two years ago, I became interested in the VLTOR CASV as I could put rails where I wanted them. While this is a quality rail system, the rail over the receiver caused me some issues with optics choices.
About a year ago, I switched out to the Troy TRX Extreme rail. This rail coupled with the VTAC version are my current favorites. Why? Because of their slender shape (can get my hands totally around it for more control). I also don't have to put rails on it (unless I want too).
Will see more of these types of rails at Shot? Maybe.
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/GR%20Custom%20Builds/105_N4_DD_SBR.jpg
I'm looking for my first AR. I will definintely be going with less.
Less stuff. I have a limited intended use, games mostly and very little plinking. I just won't need much, BUIS and probably some day a red dot.
Less weight. I have shot enough guns, hunted, and played speed games to know I don't want a lot of weight, even if I do like full-lug revolvers.
Less cost. I just don't have any desire to spend a lot on a gun that I won't use a ton and will not be used for life safety.
Lastly and still importantly, I like the looks of the Magpul MOE style stuff. I like the non-black rifles and I think the ergonomics of a grip as opposed to a rail is preferred.
I don't know much about past AR offerings so I can't comment on trends, but that's what I'm looking for. Of course if these things weren't commonly available I probably wouldn't be looking for them either.
The S&W M&P15 MOE looks like it might fit rather well for me.
I haven't found a use myself for any more than 1 rail section on a VTAC Extreme type handguard. The size also fits my hand better. The only gun that I ever had a quad rail handguard on is currently wearing an MOE handguard with 1 polymer rail section for a flashlight and is much lighter for it.
If you don't have a use for the extra rail space it's worth at least a shot going to a slimmer profile handguard. If you're not sure whether or not you have the use for all the extra rail space, a quad rail is much better for experimenting with different positions and new gear, like rob_s was saying.
I think there is a trend to offer people even more options. There are still plenty of quadrailed AR's out there, but nice to see other alternatives too.
I don't think just because you have a railed fore end, you should feel obliged to use every inch of of it - that has never been the intent of them, IMO; again, its all about modularity and choice. The person who has a section of the rail covered up today might have something on it tomorrow....or vise versa. Rails also gives you flexibility in precisely positioning accessories where you want them....they don't have to use it all.
I agree with Rob S. If nothing else, the quad rail gives you the 'easy on, easy off' convenience he gave examples of. I think it comes down to mission adaptability/intended use and how simple it is to experiment with varying accessory locations, and change them depending on current and forseeable need.
Pat
variablebinary
11-17-10, 15:43
About two years ago, I became interested in the VLTOR CASV as I could put rails where I wanted them. While this is a quality rail system, the rail over the receiver caused me some issues with optics choices.
About a year ago, I switched out to the Troy TRX Extreme rail. This rail coupled with the VTAC version are my current favorites. Why? Because of their slender shape (can get my hands totally around it for more control). I also don't have to put rails on it (unless I want too).
Will see more of these types of rails at Shot? Maybe.
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/GR%20Custom%20Builds/105_N4_DD_SBR.jpg
What suppressor is that? Looks smallish. Very cool!
What suppressor is that? Looks smallish. Very cool!
SF Mini.
C4
I dont think anyone prior to me posted about this but i also believe that rails became as popular as they were/are simply because ALOT of shooters wanted the benefit of a free float system.
The only way to do that without going for a national match style rifle was to slap a rail onto the gun.
The current movement away from railed handguards has alot to do with a few things.
1. The realization that we dont need 12 inches of rail on a fighting gun that will get nothing more than a red dot a white light and a forward sling mount.
2. There is a massive obsession with lighter rifles these days and the more metal you remove from the gun the lighter it generally ends up.
3. As more and more people grip further forward on the forearm and do everything in their power to gain more control over the muzzle of their weapon they tend to gravitate towards slimmer rails so that the hand can grip better.
Heartbreaker
11-17-10, 15:59
I have a Midwest SS, after using it for a while now I can't see myself going back to a quad rail on anything but a bench gun. It's lighter, more comfortable than a quad with panels, and if I had the sudden urge to mount 7 lights at each 45 degree angle I still have that option.
I agree with Rob S. If nothing else, the quad rail gives you the 'easy on, easy off' convenience he gave examples of. I think it comes down to mission adaptability/intended use and how simple it is to experiment with varying accessory locations, and change them depending on current and forseeable need.
Pat
The advantage of having all the rail space is the ability to put stuff where you want it. I don't have much mounted on mine but but it is where I need it. I run a DD 12" Lite FSP and carry it everyday at work.
Dan
BlindSpooch
11-17-10, 16:01
I dont think anyone prior to me posted about this but i also believe that rails became as popular as they were/are simply because ALOT of shooters wanted the benefit of a free float system.
The only way to do that without going for a national match style rifle was to slap a rail onto the gun.
The current movement away from railed handguards has alot to do with a few things.
1. The realization that we dont need 12 inches of rail on a fighting gun that will get nothing more than a red dot a white light and a forward sling mount.
2. There is a massive obsession with lighter rifles these days and the more metal you remove from the gun the lighter it generally ends up.
3. As more and more people grip further forward on the forearm and do everything in their power to gain more control over the muzzle of their weapon they tend to gravitate towards slimmer rails so that the hand can grip better.
I agree
TriumphRat675
11-17-10, 16:25
For me price is the big issue. Once I saw IWC's light and sling mounts for the MOE handguards, I pretty much decided the MOE can do everything a short rail can.
I need a white light and a forward sling mount. That's it. ~$35 for MOE handguards instead of $200+ for a rail system just makes good sense.
I dont think anyone prior to me posted about this but i also believe that rails became as popular as they were/are simply because ALOT of shooters wanted the benefit of a free float system.
The only way to do that without going for a national match style rifle was to slap a rail onto the gun.
The current movement away from railed handguards has alot to do with a few things.
1. The realization that we dont need 12 inches of rail on a fighting gun that will get nothing more than a red dot a white light and a forward sling mount.
2. There is a massive obsession with lighter rifles these days and the more metal you remove from the gun the lighter it generally ends up.
3. As more and more people grip further forward on the forearm and do everything in their power to gain more control over the muzzle of their weapon they tend to gravitate towards slimmer rails so that the hand can grip better.
Items 1, 2 & 3 all apply to my selection choice. So far, I find that all I need is a rear iron, an RDS in front of that, a front iron, and a low TLR-1 in front of that. All mounted on the top rail. The Troy TRX or VTAC achieves this very well and at moderate price.
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/zmonki/M4%20Rifles/IMG_9005.jpg
The 11" version (and especially the 13" version) gives a lot of forward support hand surface to grip and brings the light and front sight right up just behind the muzzle. Works great for me. If I decide I need to move the light to 10 or 2, it's not difficult to add a short rail piece. While a quad rail makes lots of changes quicker and easier to do, I don't expect to be doing much, if any, changing around... and for the few times that I might make a change, that can be done in a couple of minutes. Simple, uncluttered, and light weight is good for me.
Important to note, I'm a civilian/home owner with clearly different needs than true "operators" might have.
For me price is the big issue. Once I saw IWC's light and sling mounts for the MOE handguards, I pretty much decided the MOE can do everything a short rail can.
I need a white light and a forward sling mount. That's it. ~$35 for MOE handguards instead of $200+ for a rail system just makes good sense.
There's a LOT to be said for the MOE handguards, in addition to great pricing... no doubt Magpul will be selling quite a few of them for those who don't want/need a FF setup.
Also, I'd say a lot has to do from design for function.
Initially the railed stuff was designed for fighting guns. Guns that would need a flashlight, an IR illuminator, NV gear, lasers, etc.
Civvies appropriated these because these new freefloat quad rails did give them options for vertical grips, lights, etc.
I'm not sure where we'd be if VTAC and Troy had put their handguard out 3 years earlier...
DHART
I like your set up. Do you run a sling?
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=279&pictureid=1363
I just traded the SOPMOD for a CTR. There is no sling in the photo but it wears a BFG padded 2 point sling.
DHART
I like your set up. Do you run a sling?
I just traded the SOPMOD for a CTR. There is no sling in the photo but it wears a BFG padded 2 point sling.
I like your set up too! ;) Like minds... yada yada...
I have not decided on the sling type and mount yet, but have been considering putting a small QD mount on the lower, left side, rear of the VTAC... the type that doesn't need a separate rail segment... I forgot the brand name of it. I don't think I would want it attached to the top rail.
I've been switching back and forth between the SOPMOD and the CTR... I like them both and haven't gotten a clear sense just yet of which I prefer. Both are great stocks.
BTW... thank you for your service. Your sig line has special meaning to me; our son gave his life in Afghanistan a year ago, so freedom does have a special flavor to us, too.
I have a 12in rail on my average citizen gun for a few reasons.
1. It has room for a light
2. I feel as though I have more control and shot more comfortably with the AFG all the way out.
3. My DD rail on the rifle actually feels lighter than the YHM 7in rail that it came with.
4. The DD rail gave me a cost effective method of setting the rifle up in a manner in which I feel comfortable and allows me to keep the front sight intact.
Nice idea but it's a stretch.
I have a large percentage of unused rail on my weapon. It's got a DD RIS II Mk18. I'd say 85% of the rail space is left unused. I have a troy flip up on the front of the top, a SF Scout on the front of the left and a QD TD stubby near the front of the bottom. Oh and also a SF XM07 tape switch on top too.
They are used as much as can be. I'm using 3 of the 4 rails are being used and one is being used double duty.
DHART
I like your set up. Do you run a sling?
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=279&pictureid=1363
I just traded the SOPMOD for a CTR. There is no sling in the photo but it wears a BFG padded 2 point sling.
I put an Omega on one of my carbines earlier this year; to be honest, after living with it I'm unlikely to do another quadrail. If I need free float, I much prefer what I get with my TRX-E; otherwise, A2 corncobs or MOE handguards work best for me.
I just don't need all that rail space and much prefer smaller diameter handguards.
duplicate post in error
DHART
Thank you for sharing. I can not begin to imagine the pain you and your family have been through with the loss of your son. My boy is eight and my girls are 3 & 5. Your Son and those fighting with him have kept my kids safe here at home. I will be forever greatful. I just tucked my son into bed and could not help but to think of your boy.
Your post seems to have disappeared. Here is a photo of my VTAC QD sling mount and a link to a better photo.
http://www.vikingtactics.com/prod_vtac_lpsm.html
I like it because it does not require me to use any additional rails. If you have the Troy tube they make an even smaller option that goes right in one of the holes on the rail.
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=279&pictureid=1366
Here is the Troy QD mount.
http://store.troyind.com/Q_D_Swivel_Push_Botton_360_Rail_Mount_p/srai-trx-herp-00.htm
Facejackets
11-17-10, 20:27
I am pretty much a newbie to ARs as well, but I'll give this one a shot.
When I first started getting into ARs I didnt see why everyone wanted rails and all sorts of crap slapped on thier rifles. I thought quad rails were ugly, and too heavy to be even slightly useful for someone like myself who just wanted to have a range toy/SHTF rifle.
I started liking the look of rails but after shooting a bunch of ARs I decided the MOE handguard was the only way to go for me. I put the MOE on my S&W 5.45 upper, put an RVG on it, and bout a 7 slot rail for the side to mount a light on it as well. That set up "worked" but I found myself using the RVG to just "stop" my hand and I always had my hand pretty far forward on the handguard, but I kept it so far forward, I kept on touching the barrel, and after a few mags, that wasn't so pleasant!!!
I have been looking into midlength uppers, and figured I could just get a midlength MOE to throw on there and call it a day. Then I made the mistake of fondling my friends Spikes piston upper with a quad rail and ladder covers. WOW. That was a mistake and a blessing all at the same time. It felt GREAT, damn near perfect actually.
So pretty soon, I will have a middy, with a quad rail and ladder covers. Yeah its heavier. No I'm not any sort of "operator", and I dont care to have the most "tacticool" gun on the range. But it is very comfortable in my hands, and I started really liking the looks as well. I guess you all can give me shit too because I will buy something because I like the way it looks also (like anyone you drive cars you think are ugly!!!).
All in all, I think that maybe a lot of younger first time buyers bought the rails because the Call of Duty guns have them, but lately it seems to be about what works for each person, which is a good thing. It gives everyone a chance to peace together thier ideal set up.
I am pretty much a newbie to ARs as well, but I'll give this one a shot.
When I first started getting into ARs I didnt see why everyone wanted rails and all sorts of crap slapped on thier rifles. I thought quad rails were ugly, and too heavy to be even slightly useful for someone like myself who just wanted to have a range toy/SHTF rifle.
I started liking the look of rails but after shooting a bunch of ARs I decided the MOE handguard was the only way to go for me. I put the MOE on my S&W 5.45 upper, put an RVG on it, and bout a 7 slot rail for the side to mount a light on it as well. That set up "worked" but I found myself using the RVG to yjust "stop" my hand and I always had my hand pretty far forward on the handguard, but I kept it so far forward, I kept on touching the barrel, and after a few mags, that wasn't so pleasant!!!
I have been looking into midlength uppers, and figured I could just get a midlength MOE to throw on there and call it a day. Then I made the mistake of fondling my friends Spikes piston upper with a quad rail and ladder covers. WOW. That was a mistake and a blessing all at the same time. It felt GREAT, damn near perfect actually.
So pretty soon, I will have a middy, with a quad rail and ladder covers. Yeah its heavier. No I'm not any sort of "operator", and I dont care to have the most "tacticool" gun on the range. But it is very comfortable in my hands, and I started really liking the looks as well. I guess you all can give me shit too because I will buy something because I like the way it looks also (like anyone you drive cars you think are ugly!!!).
All in all, I think that maybe a lot of younger first time buyers bought the rails because the Call of Duty guns have them, but lately it seems to be about what works for each person, which is a good thing. It gives everyone a chance to peace together thier ideal set up.
What's Call of Duty?
.
.
.
.
Just kidding. I've never played it.
(like anyone you drive cars you think are ugly!!!).
White 1996 Grand Am GT with enough hail damage to look like a golf ball.
But my guns do look awesome!
For a while, rail systems were the only way to get free-floatiness on a rifle. Now there are less expensive, lighter alternatives to free-float rails for those who have no need for anything more than space to put a light, front sight, and maybe vert grip/AFG on.
-B
So pretty soon, I will have a middy, with a quad rail and ladder covers. Yeah its heavier. No I'm not any sort of "operator", and I dont care to have the most "tacticool" gun on the range. But it is very comfortable in my hands, and I started really liking the looks as well. I guess you all can give me shit too because I will buy something because I like the way it looks also...
I say good on you, man, if the setup feels right to you, does what you need it to do, and you like the looks, that's all that matters! I think it's great that we have so incredibly many choices in how to set up our rifles... Only in America!
Do the TRX Extreme/VTAC rails get hot when shooting a lot, like in a carbine course, without any rail covers on them? I've never tried them, but they seem like a good choice if you're looking for a light weight carbine.
Do the TRX Extreme/VTAC rails get hot when shooting a lot, like in a carbine course, without any rail covers on them? I've never tried them, but they seem like a good choice if you're looking for a light weight carbine.
yes... They provide less insulation from heat than some other designs. if you're going to be doing a lot of mag dumps and such, it's not a bad idea to wear a glove. An AFG helps with this as well. never a free lunch no matter what choice you make, is there! :laugh:
i have one rifle with rail's.
a RR lower ADDAX upper and troy rails. 20'' A4.
its nice,
but my ''goto'' gun is the retro 603. old vietnam triangular handguards, and camo tape all over them.
super simple and light weight. i dont have anything mounted on it.
Moose-Knuckle
11-18-10, 01:23
What is old is new again. . . ;)
I remember back when you were the coolest kid on the block if you ran an A.R.M.S. SIR on your gun. :rolleyes:
What is old is new again
plus ça change, plus c' est la même chose
I can definitely see the advantage to a light, simple forend. For my own use I have one AR15 that I repurpose for different types of shooting and so having a quad rail is worth a bit more weight. It's definitely an application specific decision.
yes... They provide less insulation from heat than some other designs. if you're going to be doing a lot of mag dumps and such, it's not a bad idea to wear a glove. An AFG helps with this as well. never a free lunch no matter what choice you make, is there! :laugh:
That would be my biggest concern. Even under normal range shooting conditions, I often notice plastic hand guards getting quite warm. Noticeably better with Magpul, and barely can tell on quad rails with Magpul covers. I like the looks of the VTAC/Troy setups, and I like the idea of the lighter weight, but I would worry about them heating up.
I have a S&W M&P 15X with lots of rail space. The only thing I have on the rails is a flashlight mount & MagPul rail covers. (If I didn't have rails, I wouldn't have the rail covers either.) I've tried & looked at all kinds of goodies, but all I want on my M4 is the light mount, Aimpoint & sling.
I have to keep things simple, 'cause I'm old & get confused easily.
As I alluded to in my earlier post, the "round" Rail Systems really allow you to use the BEST muzzle control device out there. Your THUMB! ;)
C4
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/TD1/g-01-0014.jpg
I have to agree with Grant. I came to the same conclusion - I "need" a rail in the sense that I want a free-floated barrel and I need the upper portion of railing to attach flip-up sights and a weaponlight, but I HATE the weight that they add.
I was running (still am, actually) a Noveske Recon with 11" rail, NF NXS, UBR - basically a compact precision package - and the darn thing weighs in at 11 lbs! Now, in my own defense, it was never supposed to be a run-and-gun carbine, it was simply my precision setup. However, building it allowed me to learn what I did want and didn't want in a "working" gun.
The Troy rails fit your hand much better due to the circular profile and the flat portion of the rail works very well as a thumbstop/grip-point. And then there's the weight savings.
I'm looking for a handguard and this thread is making me re think my "need" for a quad rail.
I really like the options that a quad rail affords. No, I am not any type of operator that hangs a ton of stuff off the front end but I really like being able to move what I have around. As of right now all I have mounted to my rail is my sling and my light mount and also the rail covers. I am left handed when it comes to shooting rifles and my kids are all right handed so if they like to do a little shooting it takes all of fifteen seconds to reconfigure the sling and light mount. Also if I decide to throw on a bipod for some shooting it is a viable option. Of course this is just my opinion.
The versatility would be great, but I can't really afford the versatility that is afforded. ;-D
My experience has been that when I got my first AR, a LMT SOPMOD Standard, that the easiest way to getting a VFG and light on it was an Omega rail ($250). I knew I want to free-float the barrel simply because it didn't take much thought that no pressure points on the barrel = GOOD.
Fast forward 2 months and I decided that I wanted my light, a TLR-1, to go further forward as to not cast a shadow from the barrel. This led me to a Troy MRF-R ($270). I learned how to cut the FSB down to a low-profile gas block and it took about 2 hours since it was my first time making sparks fly. Then I figured the rifle was getting too damn heavy. What to do, what to do....
After doing lots of reading and seeing TLR-1/2s and X3/400s go to a 12 o'clock mount and not wanting to have the light cast a shadow on the barrel I decided to build my 7.62x39 AR Pistol. I also knew I wanted the flash hider to be the only thing sticking out past the rail. Figuring out my budget for the gun gave me a few options for a rail. It worked out that YHMs Specter LW rail would be perfect to have only a flash hider protrude from and give sufficient barrel length past the carbine gas port for reliability. And it was $99---
I am getting the bug again to build another upper, perhaps as a 5.56/.22conv for my GF and her daughter because I'm tempted to use a TRX Extreme rail due to the lightness of it. Seeing all these rifles with TRX/VTACs on them does tell me that it's probably the right way to go for a gun that would only have a red dot on it as it would be a learning tool for my GF and her daughter and anyone else wanting to shoot it.
I didn't say much about my 6.5 Grendel because it's a heavy sucker with the 20" mid-heavy profile bbl and a 4-16x50 scope, but it does have a JP/VTAC on it. Very nice handguard that I almost should've put on another rifle, but should I decide I want one of those I'll be able to get my hands on it for about $146 :D
BlindSpooch
11-18-10, 13:46
The versatility would be great, but I can't really afford the versatility that is afforded. ;-D
Are you talking about quad rails or the Troy/VTAC type forends? Quality quad rails are definitely pricey and outta my budget, but as far as the other forends go; the MOE is very light and versitle and the way to go. Or just do what I did, look at the DD and Larue prices long enough and it makes the Troy/VTAC look like a steal! :p
-JR
Cannot afford? I don't get that...is this the right place for you? If you are at all a serious shooter, you will spend many times that a year just in ammo.
jasonhgross
11-18-10, 14:29
I dont know, but my mission set for my rifle needed these things in order:
1. Worry-free strength without fear of the forend losening or breaking
2. free float so the POI was not altered by resting the gun, sling, light mounts, ect.
3. Weight.
Given those to things, I decided on either a larue, or DD free float tube. DD had the edge in weight and slight edge in durability, so I went with that one. If the Troy Vtac/Extreme came with a barrel nut lock-up in the same level of strenght as the DD or Larue, I would have gone that way. But several reports from here of even rare failures in the Troy rail lockup steered me away from that. I am far from a gunsmith and working on these things after install is not within the my own little heirarchy of needs.
Cannot afford? I don't get that...is this the right place for you? If you are at all a serious shooter, you will spend many times that a year just in ammo.
You don't get that people place limits on their spending?
I can afford ammo.
I cannot afford ammo and extra on uneeded or not used accessories.
You don't get that people place limits on their spending?
I can afford ammo.
I cannot afford ammo and extra on uneeded or not used accessories.
Not going any further off topic, and I apologize for already having done so. Every one has a budget, and everyone allocates funds as they seem fit. Just seems to me that the one time expense of a few hundred dollars is small in grand scheme of owning and shooting carbines, especially since most here have top line gear and put a lot of ammo down range on a regular basis.
Are you talking about quad rails or the Troy/VTAC type forends? Quality quad rails are definitely pricey and outta my budget, but as far as the other forends go; the MOE is very light and versitle and the way to go. Or just do what I did, look at the DD and Larue prices long enough and it makes the Troy/VTAC look like a steal! :p
-JR
Yeah, the cost of the quad rails.
I'm currently most interested in the MOE stuff. Looks like it will meet my needs well and is much better priced.
Just seems to me that the one time expense of a few hundred dollars is small in grand scheme of owning and shooting carbines, especially since most here have top line gear and put a lot of ammo down range on a regular basis.
Understood.
To me the one time costs of some of these things just isn't worth the return, especially when combined with my intended use and that I can buy half of another good handgun for the price.
Plus I'm probably not the typical [future] AR owner here. It's I'll be far from my primary shooter, and mostly used for the occasional plinking and AR games. I'm primarily a handgunner and shotgunner.
This is largely why I'm looking at "bargain" brands without quad rails on them, like the S&W M&P15 MOE.
IMO there is no need for a rail when IWC makes a bunch of stuff for the MOE handguard to mount a sling, light, etc.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d29/yellowv/007-37.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d29/yellowv/006-46.jpg
How is muzzle jump/rise affected, if at all, when you drop up to a pound from the front of the gun (lightweight barrel/lightweight handguards)?
Blindeye_03
11-18-10, 20:03
How is muzzle jump/rise affected, if at all, when you drop up to a pound from the front of the gun (lightweight barrel/lightweight handguards)?
Im betting you can feel something - my lightweight barrelled ar15 had a lot more muzzle rise/flip compared to a govt barrelled ar15 (friends rifle).
Im betting you can feel something - my lightweight barrelled ar15 had a lot more muzzle rise/flip compared to a govt barrelled ar15 (friends rifle).
I have 2 midlengths. One has a 14.5" Govt. profile, A2ext., and Troy MRF and the other has a 14.7" pencil barrel, Troy TRX rail and Battlecomp. There is right at 1lb. difference between the 2. Even so the lightweight, pencil barreled upper with Battlecomp is much easier to control.
smoothdraw
11-18-10, 23:21
Count me. Used to have quad rails on all of my AR's. Only 1 remains quad railed. i'm going to tubular. Lighter, easier to hold. Much simpler and much lighter. I like so much the TROY battlerail TRX. very slim and light.
I see so many ARs with quad rails on them, acres and acres of rails that are just covered up with additional products (ladders).
Did the industry sort of steer buyers into thinking they need acres of uber expensive rails on all four sides of the hand guard? And then a bunch of plastic ladders to cover all those rails up?
I'm sure some guys make a lot of use of all that rail-age, and I can see how laddered rails can make for a good grip on the hand guard, but that seems to be a really expensive approach. I'm getting a sense that a lot of AR buyers are returning to the simpler, leaner, less-rail covered hand guards and that many experienced AR buyers are tending to steer away from quad rails.
If I'm reading it right, the pulse seems to be leaning toward the TRX Extreme, VTAC, and the Magpul MOE and away from quad rails. I'm quite content with a VTAC, TRX, or MOE myself and can't really see the attraction of quad rails. I could be missing something, though. :rolleyes:
Do you think there is a trend to move away from quad rails and return to less-railed hand guards?
From my perspective and being a recent AR owner I never saw the appeal for a quad rail for a civilian user when considering cost vs. various other factors. It was always the last upgrade I ever wanted to do to my gun, and once the MOE hand guard came out I realized I made the right choice in never buying one.
When I was young i was part of a budding sport that was going through major technological developments, and I was sponsored. I watched things go way extreme in application before being pulled back into a kind of "form follows function" role. The first time I laid eyes on a quad rail I thought: "That thing looks way cool :drool:, but it's not practical at all." Haven't thought about one since.
Eurodriver
11-19-10, 10:42
I put IR lasers on every rifle I own, and an MOE or VTAC with a rail attached just doesn't cut it for reliability and precision.
Plus, the VTAC and TRX look just straight up gay.
I put IR lasers on every rifle I own, and an MOE or VTAC with a rail attached just doesn't cut it for reliability and precision.
Plus, the VTAC and TRX look just straight up gay.
Gay. Really?:confused:
I put IR lasers on every rifle I own, and an MOE or VTAC with a rail attached just doesn't cut it for reliability and precision.
Plus, the VTAC and TRX look just straight up gay.
OK....I'm going out on a limb, since you're referring to personally owned rifles. So you're going to want IR lasers to be MOA accurate for the perp you have to shoot at 200 yards in a defensive nighttime scenario with NVGs on?
Gay. Really?:confused:
I see the resemblance:
VTAC Extreme (http://store.vikingtactics.com/merchant2/graphics/00000001/vtac_xtreme_rail_lrg.jpg)
Gay people (http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Science/Images/gay-pride-parade-toronto.jpg)
:sarcastic:
OK....I'm going out on a limb, since you're referring to personally owned rifles. So you're going to want IR lasers to be MOA accurate for the perp you have to shoot at 200 yards in a defensive nighttime scenario with NVGs on?
Yea, if that is the case, then I say you need a quad rail. Or if you want to put a grenade launcher on the bottom with an IR laser. There are legit military applications for a quad rail, but if you read my post, I stated: "for civilian use" in the first sentence.
I put IR lasers on every rifle I own, and an MOE or VTAC with a rail attached just doesn't cut it for reliability and precision.
Plus, the VTAC and TRX look just straight up gay.
Way to post an opinion backed by absolutely no factual information or data. Thanks for the contribution!
Could you please elaborate in regards to WHY these rails arent good enough for you and you've developed a homophobic fear of an inanimate cylindrical object? Sounds like someones got a problem....:sarcastic:
To date i havent read of anyone having any issues with the rails holding zero. Nor have i read about anyone saying these rails flex more than their competition due to the lighter weight.
Yea, if that is the case, then I say you need a quad rail. Or if you want to put a grenade launcher on the bottom with an IR laser. There are legit military applications for a quad rail, but if you read my post, I stated: "for civilian use" in the first sentence.
Indeed. I was referring to Eurodriver's post, not yours.
Eurodriver
11-19-10, 11:25
Gay. Really?:confused:
Yes bro, Gay. You never referred to ugly/abnormal/anything you didn't like as "Gay" before? You're a Marine right?
I know yesterday's Battalion PT was gay. Really, it was.
OK....I'm going out on a limb, since you're referring to personally owned rifles. So you're going to want IR lasers to be MOA accurate for the perp you have to shoot at 200 yards in a defensive nighttime scenario with NVGs on?
Yes. Why would I spend $3000 on a laser just to slap it on a screwed on rail that may potentially shift?
Yea, if that is the case, then I say you need a quad rail. Or if you want to put a grenade launcher on the bottom with an IR laser. There are legit military applications for a quad rail, but if you read my post, I stated: "for civilian use" in the first sentence.
Civilian use has alot of different meanings. "Average plinker" or "weekend target shooter" may have been a better term. I have rifles for work use and civilian use. There is no difference between many, but some are solely cosmetic. Like my M16A4 and M4 clone but even my M4 clone has a laser.
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/5337/sidear7.jpg
Either way, the laser thing is a moot point. 99% of shooters dont have or need them. However I still stick to my guns that the tubular handguards are "Gay". :big_boss: We all have our likes and dislikes. I do not like them.
Eurodriver
11-19-10, 11:26
Way to post an opinion backed by absolutely no factual information or data. Thanks for the contribution!
Could you please elaborate in regards to WHY these rails arent good enough for you and you've developed a homophobic fear of an inanimate cylindrical object? Sounds like someones got a problem....:sarcastic:
To date i havent read of anyone having any issues with the rails holding zero. Nor have i read about anyone saying these rails flex more than their competition due to the lighter weight.
I don't need to elaborate shit. I don't like them. They're ugly. That's enough for me and it should be enough for you. This thread is starting to get off topic...
Edit: Lastly, are you honestly trying to say that a tube foreend with a screwed on rail is as stable and solid as a one-piece free float rail from a quality manufacturer (i.e. Larue/DD)? Especially with a 10oz laser on it? I cannot really answer your question until I know the answer to this.
I don't need to elaborate shit. I don't like them. They're ugly. That's enough for me and it should be enough for you. This thread is starting to get off topic...
Edit: Lastly, are you honestly trying to say that a tube foreend with a screwed on rail is as stable and solid as a one-piece free float rail from a quality manufacturer (i.e. Larue/DD)? Especially with a 10oz laser on it? I cannot really answer your question until I know the answer to this.
That's an "interesting" setup on your Bushmaster. If it works for you, great. The fact that you say that you might have to use NVGs in a long-distance defensive scenario with pinpoint accuracy tells me all I need to know.
Have you ever tried a tube based on function, not aesthetics?
My two cents. The regular ol' M4 I was issued, no rails, worked pretty well for me. I have two ARs now, one with a qual rail and one without, and as a range toy and property defense rifle, I much more prefer my non-railed rifle. To me it is a concept of 'less is more.'
I don't need to elaborate shit. I don't like them. They're ugly. That's enough for me and it should be enough for you. This thread is starting to get off topic...
Edit: Lastly, are you honestly trying to say that a tube foreend with a screwed on rail is as stable and solid as a one-piece free float rail from a quality manufacturer (i.e. Larue/DD)? Especially with a 10oz laser on it? I cannot really answer your question until I know the answer to this.
This is a technical forum. If you have nothing to contribute in the way of technical information than why post anything at all? Do you like to hear the sound of your own voice because thats the way you're coming across.
IF the way in which the mount bolts to the barrel nut is solid, it doesnt matter if there are 3999 screws or one screw. The joint between said rail and the barrel nut is THE most important part in ANY free float rail. Materials and construction WILL play into the overall rigidity of the system but we arent looking at vastly inferior materials OR construction here going from the troy rails to say a DD rail.
Im not entirely sure why you're bashing a troy free float rail for supposedly having a lack of rigidity when you have a three thousand dollar aiming designator on a non free floated setup for the purposes of what...nostalgia?
Id call THAT gay...
See how much that statement makes sense? :sarcastic:
IF someone can conclusively say that you're going to experience undue flex with a troy rail then perhaps for SOME civilians that are either forward mounting their optics or using lasers as supplementary aiming devices, may need to take heed. Ultimately this still needs to be supported with data and proven.
smoothdraw
11-19-10, 12:30
you call those tubular forearm "gay"? And you all have those expensive furnitures in your Bushmaster? Bushmaster...really?? And it shoots .233 Rem?? Nice.....:sarcastic:
Do you still have any space to hold on to your forearm??? Are all of them necessary for day to day patrol or civilian defense?:big_boss:
Yes bro, Gay. You never referred to ugly/abnormal/anything you didn't like as "Gay" before? You're a Marine right?
I know yesterday's Battalion PT was gay. Really, it was.
Yes. Why would I spend $3000 on a laser just to slap it on a screwed on rail that may potentially shift?
Civilian use has alot of different meanings. "Average plinker" or "weekend target shooter" may have been a better term. I have rifles for work use and civilian use. There is no difference between many, but some are solely cosmetic. Like my M16A4 and M4 clone but even my M4 clone has a laser.
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/5337/sidear7.jpg
Either way, the laser thing is a moot point. 99% of shooters dont have or need them. However I still stick to my guns that the tubular handguards are "Gay". :big_boss: We all have our likes and dislikes. I do not like them.
...
Yes. Why would I spend $3000 on a laser just to slap it on a screwed on rail that may potentially shift?
But you have that PEQ-15 on TOP of your rail system. The rails on the top of the VTAC extreme are part of the unit. They are not screwed onto the rail. Any of the screwed on sections would just be for a flashlight or vertical foregrip if we're using your M4 clone as an example.
Heartbreaker
11-19-10, 13:05
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af230/weaponsrelated/DSC_0700.jpg
Maybe I'm missing it, I just see an average, run of the mill, hetero AR. Then again I'm no expert on these things.
smoothdraw
11-19-10, 13:46
TROY TRX Battlerail is perfect in this scenario. The PEQ-15 can still be on top of a rail while getting all the benefits of a tubular rail system. Yes???
But you have that PEQ-15 on TOP of your rail system. The rails on the top of the VTAC extreme are part of the unit. They are not screwed onto the rail. Any of the screwed on sections would just be for a flashlight or vertical foregrip if we're using your M4 clone as an example.
Indeed. I was referring to Eurodriver's post, not yours.
I know you were, I was adding more to the conversation...
The_Hammer_Man
11-19-10, 15:29
As a gunsmith I get to hear about "gay" this and "gay" that a lot from a lot of people (Usually young ones) in reference to varying components/accessories on and for the AR-15 platform.
I all boils down to personal preference.
Back on Topic: Yes there is a definite "trend" towards less is more solutions to free floating the AR-15. This is on almost all counts, in my experience with my customers, cost driven. I've been selling a lot of Troy/Vtac tubes lately as well as a lot of Midwests SS tubes. These have been going on "practicals" as well as hunters of varying barrel length.
That said.. my LEO sales recently have been either MOE or full quad rail builds. Again these are driven by departmental policy not common sense. (you know what I'm talking bout if you deal with this daily)
I personally think that the Troy/VTAC/MI tubes are fine for any level of use. If you assemble them properly and use locktite on the appropriate screws/bolts you shouldn't have any "shifting" of rail mounted items. Granted there are exceptions but in general this has worked for me.
I have long arms, so I like the extra space of a 12" rail to keep my support hand forward.
Wouldn't hesitate a moment to go with a MOE handguard setup, if there was one made like the DD rails with a cutout for a midlength FSB.
I'm sure I could get comfortable with just the MOE midlength (and I might, on a lightweight project), but cost isn't a huge factor in weighing MOE vs. DD Omega/Lite for me right now.
That said.. my LEO sales recently have been either MOE or full quad rail builds. Again these are driven by departmental policy not common sense. (you know what I'm talking bout if you deal with this daily)
Indeed I do, and we may be talking about the same people.;)
Having said that, I've been considering picking up a VTAC or Troy handguard for my current SBR project. I'm still using the Troy rail that came with my M&P 15T. It works just fine, but I only use rail-estate on the top for a VTAC light mount and the front BUIS, and the bottom for a VFG. I use a small bit of rail towards the back of one of the sides for a sling mount; that's it. If I can get away with less rail, as a weight and comfort benefit, I'll do it.
For my full length 6920, like hammer man notes, I'm bound by policy. Works fine for my needs, though.
What I like about quad rails is the ability to tinker with whatever setup I want. Basically it gives me multiple options without many constraints. My present weapon is an all around do whatever weapon. If I were to have a dedicated use weapon then rail configuration may dictate a different setup. That decision will come with time and determined use.
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af230/weaponsrelated/DSC_0700.jpg
Maybe I'm missing it, I just see an average, run of the mill, hetero AR. Then again I'm no expert on these things.
You have me laughing my ass off. I needed that today. Thanks. Damn that is freaking funny.:dance3::lol:
I agree they're a little on the ugly side but so am I. They work well for my application. I can not afford NVG's a laser/ir sight but would probably need a good rail for that. I like my DD Omega but I wanted an X300 at 12 O'Clock and the VTAC was light and priced right. I've also been leaning towards getting rid of my VFG's and only needed the rail in top.
Yes I have called things gay before. Never PT but I hinted towards it a few weeks ago when I heard my buddy from high school was doing Zumba with his Air Force unit in Astan. I told him not to let the locals see them.
Yes bro, Gay. You never referred to ugly/abnormal/anything you didn't like as "Gay" before? You're a Marine right?
I know yesterday's Battalion PT was gay. Really, it was.
Yes. Why would I spend $3000 on a laser just to slap it on a screwed on rail that may potentially shift?
Civilian use has alot of different meanings. "Average plinker" or "weekend target shooter" may have been a better term. I have rifles for work use and civilian use. There is no difference between many, but some are solely cosmetic. Like my M16A4 and M4 clone but even my M4 clone has a laser.
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/5337/sidear7.jpg
Either way, the laser thing is a moot point. 99% of shooters dont have or need them. However I still stick to my guns that the tubular handguards are "Gay". :big_boss: We all have our likes and dislikes. I do not like them.
Eurodriver
11-19-10, 17:45
you call those tubular forearm "gay"? And you all have those expensive furnitures in your Bushmaster? Bushmaster...really?? And it shoots .233 Rem?? Nice.....:sarcastic:
Do you still have any space to hold on to your forearm??? Are all of them necessary for day to day patrol or civilian defense?:big_boss:
Wait, I'm supposed to shoot it? I thought this was all for looks!
That's an "interesting" setup on your Bushmaster. If it works for you, great. The fact that you say that you might have to use NVGs in a long-distance defensive scenario with pinpoint accuracy tells me all I need to know.
Have you ever tried a tube based on function, not aesthetics?
I knew it, the very next posts would point out that snake on the side. Forget the other upgrades you can't see (like the big BCM billboard on the OTHER side, or the lower receiver's internals, or the receiver extension, or the barrel markings, or the rail, or that its an SBR lower and its easier to swap out the upper than register another lower as an SBR, but whatever. You guys know everything.)
When the hell did I ever say anything about needing to use NVGs and IR lasers in a long distance defensive scenario? It must have been about the same time you said you thought Bushmasters were more reliable than Colts.
I'll give you guys a hint
http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/9865/fullleft.jpg
That's not a Spikes Tactical rifle. ;) In case you still don't get it....that was a stripped lower from my very first AR15. I've replaced everything, but why am I explaining this to you guys? I'm the one who can afford $3000 lasers and choose to do with them what I like... You all can afford $300 "gay" rails and obviously do with them what you like. Its all personal preference.
Eurodriver
11-19-10, 17:49
I agree they're a little on the ugly side but so am I. They work well for my application. I can not afford NVG's a laser/ir sight but would probably need a good rail for that. I like my DD Omega but I wanted an X300 at 12 O'Clock and the VTAC was light and priced right. I've also been leaning towards getting rid of my VFG's and only needed the rail in top.
Yes I have called things gay before. Never PT but I hinted towards it a few weeks ago when I heard my buddy from high school was doing Zumba with his Air Force unit in Astan. I told him not to let the locals see them.
Zumba? Really? Does the Air Force still do that bike PT or was that a myth all along?
If I was going to go for a super lightweight KISS build that didn't rely on plastic handguards, the tubes would be great. I just really don't like the looks of them.
I just knew it'd get pretty interesting to see the "hate" I'd receive when insulting whats "popular".
Zumba? Really? Does the Air Force still do that bike PT or was that a myth all along?
If I was going to go for a super lightweight KISS build that didn't rely on plastic handguards, the tubes would be great. I just really don't like the looks of them.
I just knew it'd get pretty interesting to see the "hate" I'd receive when insulting whats "popular".
Opinions are one thing, everyone has them. To denigrate a product without saying why other than spouting off at the mouth so that your emotions are known is essentially worthless and serves no purpose other than to hear the sound of your own screaming.
Simple FACT.
Until proven otherwise, the troy rails WORK for a simplistic setup.
Eurodriver
11-19-10, 19:42
Hey guys, did you all know Spikes makes M16A4 clones?
Pic for proof
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/7391/leftsided.jpg
Its got a Spider as the logo on the lower receiver, so obviously the entire rifle is made by Spikes Tactical.
About a year ago, I switched out to the Troy TRX Extreme rail. This rail coupled with the VTAC version are my current favorites. Why? Because of their slender shape (can get my hands totally around it for more control). I also don't have to put rails on it (unless I want too).
Will see more of these types of rails at Shot? Maybe.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/GR%20Custom%20Builds/105_N4_DD_SBR.jpg
Grant, that's just such a gay looking gun... how can you be seen with such a thing? ;) SWEET actually! If that's gay, I'm going bi! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
BTW, I'm a conservative, married, straight guy with an eye for beautiful women... BUT, I hold nothing against people who are gay and certainly won't insult them by using the term in a derogatory manner. I think doing so is a big red flag for immaturity (and insecurity).
Eurodriver
11-20-10, 00:09
Grant, that's just such a gay looking gun... how can you be seen with such a thing? ;) SWEET actually! If that's gay, I'm going bi! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
BTW, I'm a conservative, married, straight guy with an eye for beautiful women... BUT, I hold nothing against people who are gay and certainly won't insult them by using the term in a derogatory manner. I think doing so is a big red flag for immaturity (and insecurity).
Whoa whoa whoa, you don't know my rules. You can't start calling every rifle with them gay.
Tubular handguards (is that even the correct term) are totally cool if you have an SBR and a suppressor. Geez, don't you know anything? :laugh:
LowSpeed_HighDrag
11-20-10, 00:31
I think the trend is going more towards free float. The guys on a lower budget or who are looking for simplicity are buying FF HGs such as VTAC w/out rails because they are quality tubes for a low price. But, I think the trend is about to sway back towards simplicity as more shooters start to attend classes and see that a 15lb rifle is more than a handful. The onset of the MOE HG has helped alot of people build a more simplistic AR15 as well.
I was never tempted to venture into heavy rifles laden down with stuff... and never did that with my shotguns either. And it doesn't look like I ever will. My first ARs (recent) each weigh around 6 lbs 12 oz. with Troy irons (no RDS). My needs are fairly minimal... light weight and simple, baby, sure sounds good to me! :)
hopeitsfast
11-20-10, 03:38
As an AR newbie who bought a 16" carbine rifle, i'm still figuring out what works for me. I do have an OmegaX FSB rail that will be installed soon, because i know i want to be able to hold 'forward' of the FSB( burnt my hand enough to figure that one out) and i wanted to get a 'free float' rail. I also like having the factory FSB and didn't want to switch to a lowpro gas block. I also am not sure where i'm going to mount my light, so i figure the quad rail gives me plenty of options.
So at this point with me, i figure it's worth the @$200 investment,even if all i will have is an Aimpoint micro, a BUIS, and a light, and if i don't like it i can always sell it and get back most of my money. Live and learn i guess.
The_Hammer_Man
11-20-10, 04:34
For those of you who are stuck with either stock forearms or have a preference for MOE handguards there IS a free float option available to you!
This company: http://www.compasslake.com/float_tube.htm
If you send them your MOE hanguard they'll modify both it and the NM tube to the proper length for your weapon. Granted, if you have a pinned/permed muzzle device this will be contraindicated. But, for those of us that ,either have SBRs or 16"+ length barrels this is definitely a good option.
I've recently installed 12 of these in carbine and midlength for a local PDs patrol weapons. Took about 30 minutes per weapon to do the swap and the officers were much happier. The big issue with patrol weapons in squad cars are those damned locking clamps! To change them to fit a quad rail equipped rifle would cost almost as much as a new clamp. So, as you can see, those officers are stuck unless they do a "work around" like the Compass Lake product.
Didn't mean to hijack the thread or piss anyone off.. just trying to get this info out to folks that live and work within some seriously dumbassed departmental policies that were set 30 years ago.
There is nothing harder to change than the bureaucratic mind!
ETA: Cost is: $117.30 for the tube and $25.50 for the mods to your hand guards. Add the cost of the MOE's and it come to about the same price as a VTAC or Troy tube.
Yes that's a bit pricier than some people would like ... BUT!!!!!.. it will make your weapon "squad car friendly" w/o modifying external profiles.
I was never tempted to venture into heavy rifles laden down with stuff... and never did that with my shotguns either. And it doesn't look like I ever will. My first ARs (recent) each weigh around 6 lbs 12 oz. with Troy irons (no RDS). My needs are fairly minimal... light weight and simple, baby, sure sounds good to me! :)
Yea I never saw the need to lean this way either. Back country hunting with a heavy lever action is enough to teach me that when I pick up a light, functional, reliable firearm the only weight I will ever add to it will be purely for function upgrades. Anything aesthetic that adds weight is absolutely pointless for my needs. While I understand the applications for a quad rail, I hate to say it but I feel like for 99.9% of the non-operator AR owning population, they are purely aesthetic considering the other options.
While I understand the applications for a quad rail, I hate to say it but I feel like for 99.9% of the non-operator AR owning population, they are purely aesthetic considering the other options.
Grant's photo just above shows how easy it is to run RDS, light, and BUIS all on the top rail. Keeps it simple, clean, and very light. That's the same layout Im using and will be complete when my Aimpoint H-1 arrives. Certainly not for everyone's needs, but definitely a great set-up!
About two years ago, I became interested in the VLTOR CASV as I could put rails where I wanted them. While this is a quality rail system, the rail over the receiver caused me some issues with optics choices.
About a year ago, I switched out to the Troy TRX Extreme rail. This rail coupled with the VTAC version are my current favorites. Why? Because of their slender shape (can get my hands totally around it for more control). I also don't have to put rails on it (unless I want too).
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/GR%20Custom%20Builds/105_N4_DD_SBR.jpg
Grant, did you weld that sling swivel in there??
Grant, did you weld that sling swivel in there??
Not Grant but I think this is what he has.
http://troyind.com/%20/battleslings/troy-q-d-swivel-wtrx-cooling-hole-low-pro-mount-coming-soon
I put IR lasers on every rifle I own, and an MOE or VTAC with a rail attached just doesn't cut it for reliability and precision.
Plus, the VTAC and TRX look just straight up gay.
Have the Troy / VTAC rails you used moved after installation?
And did they engage in inappropriate touching of other rails in your gun safe?
BlindSpooch
11-20-10, 17:36
I think the trend is going more towards free float. The guys on a lower budget or who are looking for simplicity are buying FF HGs such as VTAC w/out rails because they are quality tubes for a low price. But, I think the trend is about to sway back towards simplicity as more shooters start to attend classes and see that a 15lb rifle is more than a handful. The onset of the MOE HG has helped alot of people build a more simplistic AR15 as well.
I agree, very well put
Have the Troy / VTAC rails you used moved after installation?
And did they engage in inappropriate touching of other rails in your gun safe?
Mine was snuggled up next to a Pink Red Rider and a Pink Savage .22lr. My safe does not have any supports short enough for my ARs or my kids little guns.
crowkiller
11-20-10, 18:08
If I ever get my recce done my next rifle is going to be a lightweight middy with one of these new Troy/Vtac type rails. I have a feeling we are going to see more of these type rails from different manufacturers in the future.
I am currently using an Apex rifle length (12.5") free float tube handguard on my 16" recce type rifle and like it a lot. It weighs a few ounces more than the TRX extreme and the VTAC rails but I like the attachment method of this rail more because it uses the factory barrel nut and it also has a very rigid feel to it. The only other tube handguard that feels better to me is the one on the LWRC REPR .LWRC will be making a 5.56 SPR 12"version of the REPR handguard available in the near future and I plan on getting one for my little friend.
Magic_Salad0892
11-20-10, 21:41
I'd like to see KAC make the rail from the MD carbine as a standard production item.
The_Hammer_Man
11-20-10, 22:13
I'd like to see KAC make the rail from the MD carbine as a standard production item.
Went looking and couldn't find the tube you were talking about... Link please?
Magic_Salad0892
11-20-10, 23:01
This.
My Take... I just installed a 9" VTAC extreme rail on my 16" Middy. I have been debating what to do with the Middy. I had a MI -18 2piece rail on it originally and it worked well, but was heavy.
Then the MOE Middy rail came out and I looked at that, but then decided on the VTAC as I like the look, the top rail and the weight. I went with the 9" as I do not use the MagPul style shooting stance and I like a FSB.
So far I am very happy with my choice. Time on the range will tell..
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