Tula ammo FTE. Lighter spring choices?

[aspiderfreak]

I'm experiencing FTE & failure to fully cycle with new Tul Ammo 223 fmj.

I'm a shooting fairly new, Olympic Arms A2 rifle w/ 20 inch barrel. (The only upgrade on the rifle is a BAD lever) The magazine I'm using is a magpul pmag.

It is failing to fully cycle when shooting this ammo. The FTE/cycle occurs almost 100% of the time when using these shells. When shot the bolt will frequently not pick up the next round, and will close on an empty chamber. Other times it will fail to fully eject spent shell, and being to pick up the next round, thus causing a jam. (I have checked the extractor spring & o-ring, and all seems ok there)

I decide to try and problem solve, initially thinking the rifle must be dirty. I stripped it down and cleaned it immaculately. I then returned to the range and experienced the same issues.

I then tried running Pmc & Monarch though it, and it ran like a champ. I tried feeding it Tul again and no dice.

I then took a friends Olympic carbine lower, and put my upper on it, and it shot great. I put his 16 inch upper on my lower and experienced the same issues. :(

My friend believes that the Tul Ammo is similar to Wolf, and is underpowered, thus has difficulty in fully cycling the rifle length buffer & spring.

My Q's:

Is my friend correct, and if so how do I correct this issue? (aside from choosing another ammo. I've already got 1k of the stuff.)

Can I run a carbine buffer and spring in my rifle tube w/o causing malfunctions & damage? I really want to keep the A2 stock, and avoid using a carbine tube if at all possible.

Thanks in advance,

S>

[xrayoneone]

I ran the Tula ammo through an A1 and two A2's and it did not cycle at all. When I put it through a CAR15 and a Mini 14 it worked fine. I then ran it through my Daniel Defense carbine and it did not cycle.

I assume this is the Tula ammo that was so cheap at Cabela's a couple of months ago. Tula makes some of the Wolf ammo. The main difference in the Tula ammo from the Wolf marked ammo is the Tula stuff I have is boxer primed as opposed to the berdan primed Wolf.

So there is nothing wrong with your gun. Cheap training ammo if it works in your gun, that's it. If it doesn't work maybe you can trade it for some stuff that does.

[aspiderfreak]

...

I assume this is the Tula ammo that was so cheap at Cabela's a couple of months ago. Tula makes some of the Wolf ammo. The main difference in the Tula ammo from the Wolf marked ammo is the Tula stuff I have is boxer primed as opposed to the berdan primed Wolf.

So there is nothing wrong with your gun. Cheap training ammo if it works in your gun, that's it. If it doesn't work maybe you can trade it for some stuff that does.

Thanks for the reply. I'm glad to know that my gun isn't malfunctioning. It was driving me crazy. I still wonder why it works in the carbine though.

Do you think I could run a carbine spring and buffer in my rifle tube, if i pull the old-fashioned 9mm trick (putting a $1.75 in quarters in the tube to shorten its internal length) ? Or would that be inviting misfortune?

[xrayoneone]

It doesn't work in all carbines. I have a bushmaster CAR15 that is about 20 years old and the Tula ammo runs through that and my Mini 14 no problems. When I run it in my Daniel Defense M4 it doesn't cycle at all.

As far as changing buffers I don't see how that will help. As far as I can tell the ammo is not very powerful so not enough gas is getting back to cycle your bolt. I don't know what the velocity is on the stuff I didn't put it over my chrony, but obviously it is pretty under powered.

[sdacbob]

Wolf is made by Tula. Of all the Russian made ammo....Brown Bear, Silver Bear, ect I believe Wolf/ Tula is the dirtiest and most least powerful of them all.

[JSantoro]

A light coat of lube in the chamber helps to counteract all the extra smut that gets spit back into the chamber when shooting steel cased rounds. Try that first and see if that solves your FTE problems.

Given that it's an Olympic gun, the chamber has a pretty high chance of being out of spec, tight, whatever term is least offensive. They're not the only manufacturer with the trend for ganking up rifle chamberings. Find an AR armorer or gunsmith that can take a Ned Christiansen 5.56 chamber reamer to it. Get the chamber reamed, you can shoot ANY 5.56 or .223 ammo.

Steel case ammo can be run in an AR platform just fine, but it takes a true 5.56 chamber and being a little more liberal with your motion lotion.

Tula and Wolf are made by the same folks, and are fairly low-pressure rounds, so your friend may have a point.

[fivefivesix]

i just had the same problem with my daniel defense m4. the ammo wouldnt cycle the bolt all the way to strip the next round from the mag. i have a cheap buffer spring so im replacing it to see if it helps.
my friends m4 is an elcheapo i assembled for him from some cheap parts and a bcm bolt and his cycles it.

[MarkG]

i just had the same problem with my daniel defense m4. the ammo wouldnt cycle the bolt all the way to strip the next round from the mag. i have a cheap buffer spring so im replacing it to see if it helps.
my friends m4 is an elcheapo i assembled for him from some cheap parts and a bcm bolt and his cycles it.
remember the bolt has to go back far enough to initiate the ejector rod and then stripthe next round.

What are you talking about? The ejector is always active.

[fivefivesix]

So what initiates the ejection process.
otherwise what keeps it from ejecting as soon as it starts its rear ward movement

[MarkG]

The ejector and extractor work together. The limited space of the chamber and upper receiver prevents the case from being "ejected" until it clears the ejection port.

[fivefivesix]

i stand corrected and im sorry. i manually cycled rounds and it extracted just as you said. i seen how they both work together

[aspiderfreak]

It doesn't work in all carbines. I have a bushmaster CAR15 that is about 20 years old and the Tula ammo runs through that and my Mini 14 no problems. When I run it in my Daniel Defense M4 it doesn't cycle at all.

As far as changing buffers I don't see how that will help. As far as I can tell the ammo is not very powerful so not enough gas is getting back to cycle your bolt. ...it is pretty under powered.

I was assuming that a lighter spring and buffer combo would provide less resistance (a lower reciprocating mass), thus compensating for the weaker powered round. Would that not help with the weaker rounds? This could just be a completely ignorant assumption on my part, as I am relatively new to the AR world.

Have you tried switching your buffer spring from your 20yr old Bushy into your DD? Perhaps the spring is more broken in?


A light coat of lube in the chamber helps to counteract all the extra smut that gets spit back into the chamber when shooting steel cased rounds. Try that first and see if that solves your FTE problems.

Given that it's an Olympic gun, the chamber has a pretty high chance of being out of spec...Find an AR armorer or gunsmith that can take a Ned Christiansen 5.56 chamber reamer to it. Get the chamber reamed, you can shoot ANY 5.56 or .223 ammo.

Tula and Wolf are made by the same folks, and are fairly low-pressure rounds, so your friend may have a point.

Thanks for the suggestions. :)

I have been pretty liberal with my rem-oil; It doesn't seem to help the FTE/cycle issue. It really seems as though it is just not cycling the action enough to eject the round.

Excellent suggestion. I will be taking my rifle to the local gunsmith this week, and having him check/ ream the chamber. I'll post the results asap.



i just had the same problem with my daniel defense m4. the ammo wouldnt cycle the bolt all the way to strip the next round from the mag. i have a cheap buffer spring so im replacing it to see if it helps.
my friends m4 is an elcheapo i assembled for him from some cheap parts and a bcm bolt and his cycles it.

I'm sorry your in the same boat. :P

I am leaning towards trying out JP's Low Mass buffer, and their polished spring. Hopefully this will help as well.

[jwperry]

I have been pretty liberal with my rem-oil; It doesn't seem to help the FTE/cycle issue. It really seems as though it is just not cycling the action enough to eject the round.


Remoil burns off really, really fast. If you want a cost efficient lubricant that will last on your gun, get some Mobil 1 10w-30 FULL synthetic. CLP and slip 2000 also work well, in my unqualified opinion.

As for your problem, a friend of mine had his front sight walk forward on his Olympic; does it look like your set screws are loose and your front sight could have moved? Cutting off portion of your gas port will definitely stop your rifle from cycling.

[Todd.K]

I still wonder why it works in the carbine though.

Do you think I could run a carbine spring and buffer in my rifle tube, if i pull the old-fashioned 9mm trick (putting a $1.75 in quarters in the tube to shorten its internal length) ? Or would that be inviting misfortune?

The gas pressure gets lower as the bullet goes down the barrel. It may be enough at the carbine gas port position but drop too low at the rifle position of your gas port especially if the powder burn rate is faster than optimal.

Rock River makes a plastic spacer for the 9mm buffer in a rifle stock that I would prefer over quarters. If you reduce the internal length of the rifle buffer tube to that of a carbine it will be perfectly safe to use a CAR buffer and spring.

Remoil is not appropriate lube for an AR, you need something thicker.

Your local gunsmith may not know the difference in .223 and 5.56 chambers, unless he specializes in AR's he will probably just put a headspace gauge in there and call it good.

[aspiderfreak]

I want to thank everyone for taking the time to help me with this issue. It's much appreciated.


Remoil burns off really, really fast. If you want a cost efficient lubricant that will last on your gun, get some Mobil 1 10w-30 FULL synthetic. CLP and slip 2000 also work well, in my unqualified opinion.

As for your problem, a friend of mine had his front sight walk forward on his Olympic; does it look like your set screws are loose and your front sight could have moved? Cutting off portion of your gas port will definitely stop your rifle from cycling.

I had no idea that the rem-oil was crap. I'll check and see if the gunsmith has some of the slip 2000. Fortunately enough, I happen to have some Mobil 1 in the garage. :laugh: Should I use it on the BCG as well?

Strange that you ask, but I think the FSB may be canted to the right (when aiming down the sights) about 1/8 of an inch. I don't think it has set screws though. It looks more like it has pins holding it in place.

You can see in the picture below that the dot on the RMR is to the left of the front sight post.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_03455.jpg

When sighting it in at 25 yards using a Trijicon RMR and an Arms 40 I was experiencing dramatic point of aim/ point of impact differences. (From a bench)

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_03397.JPG

The RMR was grouping nicely in the x-ring, whilst the Arms BUIS aperture had to be adjusted all the way to the left for the grouping to the left. They are now almost even on the y-coordinate plane, but significantly off on the x-plane. :sad:

It never occurred to me that this could be causing a partial block of the gas port. Is this likely?


The gas pressure gets lower as the bullet goes down the barrel. It may be enough at the carbine gas port position but drop too low at the rifle position of your gas port especially if the powder burn rate is faster than optimal.

Rock River makes a plastic spacer for the 9mm buffer in a rifle stock that I would prefer over quarters. If you reduce the internal length of the rifle buffer tube to that of a carbine it will be perfectly safe to use a CAR buffer and spring.

Remoil is not appropriate lube for an AR, you need something thicker.

Your local gunsmith may not know the difference in .223 and 5.56 chambers, unless he specializes in AR's he will probably just put a headspace gauge in there and call it good.


Ah that makes sense. Especially if the canted sight is causing an impediment of the remaining gas pressure flow.

Thank you for the RR spacer tip, I will order one tonight.

I would prefer the rifle to be able to shoot 5.56. The lower receiver is marked "Cal 223 5.56" Should I insist on having it reamed, or just save up for a quality barrel that I know has a 5.56 chamber? I don't want to throw good money after bad. (I see you work for Noveske, and I have been coveting one of your barrels w/a switchblock.)

Thanks again for taking the time to teach me,

S>

[pennzoil]

A light coat of lube in the chamber helps to counteract all the extra smut that gets spit back into the chamber when shooting steel cased rounds. Try that first and see if that solves your FTE problems.

Thanks for the tip. I think this will solve the FTE I was having today. I'm going to try this to use up what I have left of wolf military classic. Quoted your tip in a different steel case thread I posted in earlier hope you don't mind. Ammo Thread (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=67776)

Here was my chamber after 500 rds today and two FTE at the end of the day with gunk from the chamber on spent casing.

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/8518/zoomchamber.jpg

[fivefivesix]

If all else fails remove ur buffer spring and replace it with a colt spring. I had a carbine spring that was 11in. That is in spec but it was too stiff. I bought a dd spring and a bcm spring and my gun cycles tulammo now reliably. I had the same problem the bcg wouldn't retract far enough to pick the next round from the mag. Don't over look a cheap spring it might look good but it can be bad. It happened to me. I'll never buy nothing from delton again.