View Full Version : Doesn't a society need an underclass to thrive...
...and isn't the downfall of every society when they think that all people really are equal and try to raise up the lower class?
I'm not talking about something as strict as a caste system, but all of the growing economies seem to be ones where they have a class of people that are "taken advantage of" by our standards, and all of the economies that are crashing seem to have a culture of entitlements and welfare states (in Europe they even call them this, without any shame whatsoever).
It strikes me that there will never be a way for the US to be competitive again so long as we have this idea that every single citizen is due a chicken in every pot, a car in every garage, home ownership, cable TV, an iPhone, etc.
Thoughts?
FromMyColdDeadHand
11-19-10, 09:36
I think that is a false premise based on the zero-sum ideology that people can get ahead by taking from other people. I think the true model is one where people can get ahead and accumulate wealth thru hard work, filling needs and entrepreneurship.
The other thing is the relative differences between the 'classes' in a society and the absolute level. People look at the inequality in the US and bemoan it, but I'd rather be a coal strip mine worker here than over in China. A sociologist once noted that America is the only place where the poor go to rallys asking for more assistance by driving there in their own cars.
As to the income disparity here in the States (which in large part is more due to age- older people have more money- than anything else), we would do a lot better if we didn't have a third world country dropped on us every decade.
I don't think that your premise is totally wrong. I'm Irish and even my grandfather has some interesting 'class' stories. But look at it this way, people keep coming here because they obviously think it is a better deal than they would get back where they are from.
Rob- are you trying to bait out the true commies here?
I think that is a false premise based on the zero-sum ideology that people can get ahead by taking from other people. I think the true model is one where people can get ahead and accumulate wealth thru hard work, filling needs and entrepreneurship.
The other thing is the relative differences between the 'classes' in a society and the absolute level. People look at the inequality in the US and bemoan it, but I'd rather be a coal strip mine worker here than over in China. A sociologist once noted that America is the only place where the poor go to rallys asking for more assistance by driving there in their own cars.
Juxtaposition of these two statements is interesting.
What appears to have always happened in the US is that by default we have dragged the lower classes forward with us, and people have been able to move up and down within the class system. Hell even in China and India the lower classes are better off now than they were 10, 15, 25 years ago (from what I can tell).
Rob- are you trying to bait out the true commies here?
No baiting, honest question and I'm interested in hearing others' thoughts.
If we look at some Arab countries, everyone that is FROM that country is rich (some more than others). The problem with that is no one wants to work. So they have to go to other countries to get "workers." Thusly creating a lower class in their country.
All countries need a working class (or lower income group) to do things that NEED to be done.
The great thing about our country is you can start off with NOTHING, turn yourself into a Millionaire very quickly (if you have the drive to do so).
Some folks in the US believe that they are entitled to what other people have. They just want it handed to them (not realizing that the people that are rich most likely worked hard for it).
For whatever reason no one ever seems to be "content" with their position in life. The poor want to be rich. The rich are un-happy because they haven't figured out that money can't buy happiness.
When I left the USN, I made $24K as an E-5. This was in 1998. Man, I thought I had it good. Money in the bank, paid for car, spending money. I was content with what I had. Why? Because I was happy with who I was as a person. This seems to be missing with the majority of the US population for some reason.
So NO, you are not entitled to a plasma TV, new car, house, spending money OR HEALTH CARE!
C4
Someone has to work in the factories, fields, and other manual labor.
Belmont31R
11-19-10, 09:50
Our poor are still richer than 95%+ of the people in this world. They own cars, have food, tv's, have a roof over their head, ect.
We do have some poverty but our poverty level definition is still rich to most people in the world.
And we still have some semblance of self destiny in this country. There are too many to count cases of people growing up in poverty who grow up to become millionares, ect. If someone doesn't make it here (to the standard of having a car, roof, food, ect) then its their own fault or they have a medical condition that prevents them from doing so....but we help those people out too.
But yes we still need people to mop floors, clean peoples houses, and such.
Not everyone can be a college grad making 80K+ a year.
I'm not sure what the ideal balance would be, but yes every society needs an under class. Manual labor will always be needed, and middle-upper class people usually will not do those jobs.
The problem in the US is that we are doing too much to get rid of our WORKING lower classes. Govt handouts keep the lower classes from working, thus we are becoming dependent on foreigners to provide our essential manual labor needs. Get rid of govt assistance, and the lower classes will work as a means to survive...........and all of society as a whole will benefit.
Patrick Aherne
11-19-10, 10:20
Been watching The Incredibles? We are focusing too much on making losers winners, rather than holding up the exceptional as the example and goal.
The_War_Wagon
11-19-10, 11:45
Some folks in the US believe that they are entitled to what other people have. They just want it handed to them (not realizing that the people that are rich most likely worked hard for it).
For whatever reason no one ever seems to be "content" with their position in life. The poor want to be rich. The rich are un-happy because they haven't figured out that money can't buy happiness.
When I left the USN, I make $24K as an E-5. This was in 1998. Man, I thought I had it good. Money in the bank, paid for car, spending money. I was content with what I had. Why? Because I was happy with who I was as a person. This seems to be missing with the majority of the US population for some reason.
C4
If I may be so bold to piggyback onto Grant's thought, it reminds me of a lesson from St. Paul, many moons ago: Philippians 4: 11b-13.
I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do everything through Him who gives me strength.
I can relate.
Maybe our national 'UN-happiness,' is more a spiritual matter, than a 'physical needs' matter...
If I may be so bold to piggyback onto Grant's thought, it reminds me of a lesson from St. Paul, many moons ago: Philippians 4: 11b-13.
I can relate.
Maybe our national 'UN-happiness,' is more a spiritual matter, than a 'physical needs' matter...
Go on brother and preach it! ;)
C4
Canonshooter
11-19-10, 13:07
Maybe our national 'UN-happiness,' is more a spiritual matter, than a 'physical needs' matter...
I think a direct relationship can be observed between the decline in spirituality and the decline of a nation.
It's a shame that religous fanaticism (regardless of one's faith) has captured some much of today's headlines and cause the trouble they do. Whether they are Islamic militants or the Wackos from Westboro, they all give religion (and spiritual wellness) a bad name.
No doubt about it, happiness is a state of mind and is not found trying to impose your beliefs on others.
Regardless of any attempted structure, there will always be those individuals who function more successfully and less successfully in a given system. So there will always be an underclass.
Gutshot John
11-19-10, 14:43
All societies require an underclass. The problem with most systems is that there is no opportunity for the underclass to rise above their condition through perseverance, hard work and natural gifts.
The brilliance of the American system is that within a single generation, the under class can become the upper class and the upper class can very quickly become the under class.
Or to quote Nathaniel Hawthorne's House of Seven Gables..."Families are always rising and falling in America."
No doubt about it, happiness is a state of mind and is not found trying to impose your beliefs on others.
I wish more people would realize/live this. Very well said.
I consider myself a happy man. I have my family and that's all I need. That said on the rare occasion I decide to watch TV I want it to be on a 3D LCD screen. And when I on the rare occasion decide to go for a drive when I don't really have anywhere to go I want to do it in a SS camaro. I have neither and need neither. I want both, though I don't have the resources to acquire both, thusly I go without :D
Or did I miss the point?
Underclass necessary? No.
It's wrong to think of a starting job or menial labor as being filled by some "underclass"- as if we need classes & categories to define ourselves.
I started off pulling trap, laboring at construction sites, working at a junk yards, cutting paper for a print shop and running a drill press making aerospace fasteners. Though I wasn't making much money, I never thought of myself as "underclass", just a young kid just starting out. Each job was a stepping stone to something that paid better. Best choice of all (since I wasn't wise enough to pursue something worthwhile in college) was to join the Air Force and learn how to maintain aircraft. (In retrospect, it would have been better to pick a job in some high tech whiz-bang field, still I enjoy working on aircraft.) When I got out, I took a job to get me started in that field and was a stepping stone to something better. My great-grandfather did it as did my grandfather and my father. Now I'm watching my sons do the same. None of us are or ever have been some "underclass", just folks working hard to better ourselves and our families
Just want to add- War Wagon hit the nail on the head
the necessity of it is negated by the inevitability of it. it's as sure as apples fall from trees...
look at any socioeconomic system man has ever attempted- have any ever been even close to egalitarian?
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.