View Full Version : SHTF Fighting Gun(s): Getting Thoughts on Paper - Feedback Welcome
Let me start by defining myself and my purpose. I am proud to be a citizen of the United States of America, as I'm sure you are too. I believe that Freedom is the greatest gift we have and also the most costly. Thank you to those who are reading this that have and are contributing to it as I write! The freedom of this country was not established by a standing military as there really was none. It was established by individuals who united behind the common cause of freedom. That spirit must remain alive, or this nation will collapse from within. That being said, the individual's ability to maintain personal and collaborative freedom relies heavily upon arms. My thoughts in this realm are not regarding defensive firearms deployed in the home against an intruder. The options there are well-established and I have made my choices as I feel are appropriate.
Instead, I wish to explore what weapon(s) are most practical for defending the freedom of myself, my family, my community, my state, and my nation from any and all threats regardless of their source. I realize that this is subjective to a certain extend based upon geographic conditions. Thus, I will define mine: Southeastern United States, 40 miles Northeast of Atlanta, GA. Suburban/Rural with access to Smoky Mountains 1.5 hrs away.
Primary: Pistol - as a licensed concealed weapon carrier, this is what I am most likely to have either on my person or within close reach. This is what the majority of my training thus far has centered around. My choice is a Glock 19, YMMV.
Secondary: This is where I begin to struggle. Semi-auto is appealing due to larger/more rapid volume of fire and I have some minor training with the AR-15 platform. I also have gear and mags to support the AR-15 platform. The exact iteration of this platform is, however, up for debate. In my area, Intermediate range is most likely (100-300 yds) However, the AR-15 also falls into my HD scenario, so it needs CQB capabilities as well. I find a magnified optic to be a plus (not a necessity) beyond 100 yds. My thoughts here are either a 1-4 variable, or a 2.5-8 in conjunction with a Micro Dot. Weight is a consideration, so that gives the edge to the 1-4, but the 2.5-8 earns the edge in precision. (In my experience, things never go as planned. For instance, if you plan on the deer walking out at 200 yds and you're dialed up to 9X, he walks out at 10 yds and vice versa) This also is a tic in favor of the dual optic setup.
Third: Remington 700 20" HB .308. I have the utmost confidence in this platform and have intermediate training with it. I know with all confidence that I can make hits at 700 (probably further, but that's as far of a range as I've been to thus far). Due to the bolt action and mag capacity, this does not serve well as a primary fighting arm, but would do well in a role of 400yds+ as needed, and is also a large enough caliber to take large game.
Wildcard: As an alternate to the AR in the secondary role is an AR-based .308, FAL, M14. This is heavier that a 5.56 AR, ammo is heavier to carry, but more devistating likely requiring less to fire (am I thinking correctly here?) This rifle could potentially serve in the role of the bolt gun and the AR (do you think?) I would run the 3.5-10 off my bolt gun in conjunction with a micro Dot and essentially have a do-everything gun. The problem with that is, it's not as good as an AR in CQB, and not as good as a bolt gun at long range.
Deployment: CC rig for pistol, Carbine and Chest Rig take things to the next level if need be. If bugging out to the mtns is required, the bolt gun goes in a McMillan or similar pack with survival items.
Likely scenarios IMHO: Religious uprising, Natural disaster, Socio-demographic uprising
Less-likely scenarios IMHO: Foreign invasion
I'm always reminded/haunted by the quote from Admiral Yamamoto from WWII where he says "You could never invade America, there would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." I'm afraid this is not the case anymore with our PC state of affairs, but I at least want to make sure there are still some rifles behind grass if/when needed. IMHO it is the individual's responsibility to provide for his own security and the security of his family.
These are my thoughts. There may be flaws. I invite you to discuss, critique, offer advice.
Thank you!
EchoMirage
11-19-10, 15:06
rifle, first, last, and always
Likely scenarios IMHO: Religious uprising, Natural disaster, Socio-demographic uprising
Less-likely scenarios IMHO: Foreign invasion
1. There already is a foreign invasion from Mex, and there are 10 mil or more of them here now and they keep coming.
2. IMO, SHTF may occur on a local level from a natural disaster. On a national level I think it would occur due to (a) worldwide financial collapse, (b) EMP bomb over U.S., (c) mass resistance to government oppression (i.e., a Prez declares martial law...). I don't buy the Socio-demo uprising. There ain't no way the Black Panthers or La Raza are driving to Iowa to try to shoot the farmers.
Regarding your guns, I have no criticism, but I would encourage you to think in terms of a team (you, family members, neighbbors, etc.) because (a) you can't lug all that crap yourself, and (b) there will be a better chance of survival in a team.
Forgot to add: Think about body armor.
Colt 6933 and a G17 are the problem solvers. One person can't realistically carry more than this(okay, a 6920 instead of the 6933 if so desired) and nothing more is really needed. If one wants to carry a shotgun and a precision rifle, they need more hands. Or a mode of transportation.
Beat Trash
11-20-10, 02:38
If you are going to discuss "SHTF Fighting Guns", then in my mind you are talking about a carbine and a pistol per person.
A Glock 17/19 or an M&P in your holster and an AR of your choice (Colt 6920 for me).
Any more and you need a golf cart to transport.
I don't own a 9mm so for me it is my LMT or BCM SBR. The BCM would probably get the nod with the inch longer bbl. I would also have my G22.
Bolt_Overide
11-20-10, 22:48
IMO for a situation like any of the myriad of SHTF scenarios, a sidearm is nothing more than a backup or a tool to help you get to your rifle. Once your rifle is in hand, it should always be the primary.
Well:
If we go old school we can use the late Mel Tappen's(sp?) book written in the 1970's as a guide. Are we foraging to fill the pot? If so a 22 lr and or a 22 magnum is a great choice. Never forget the universal 12 ga., which has been the defender of hearth and home for centuries, while still capable of harvesting game. What about an 870 with an extra barrel for game?
Pistol, yes and while were are at it put me down for two to carry. The Glock line makes sense. Full size and a sub compact in the same caliber, common ammo, parts and mags. Or an M &P although they are not as developed and will need time to mature.
Rifle, well yes. Ar's / AK's make sense if one envisions a lot of fighting. AR wins for mags, parts and it is the good guys gun.
For me a 6.8 with a variable optic and a sure fire light might be the best set up except for ammo and mag. replenishment. When in Rome one would be well advised to use the common Gladius.
Or we could doff our hat to the later Col. Copper. His writings suggest a short medium bore bolt or lever action, a scout type. Ammo availability was always considered key. So a short well equipped 7.62x51 bolt gun, or a lightly modified 30/30 lever action might fit the bill. Either is capable of defending the home and gathering game. The above are non threatening, and ammo is every where.
So what say, you? Will you be surviving, in combat or stacking up zombies.....
Regards
Matt
Just had this discussion with a friend at work. We both agree on Glock for a pistol roll. But for a rifle roll is where we hit the wall.
We agreed on an AR platform. He just purchased a POF recon in
.223/.556. He thinks cuz his cost $2000 bucks its going to run no matter what.
I on the other have a mutt of a gun. Middy BCM upper and a Mega lower with RRA lpks for around $1000 bucks and its the way I wanted.
If the SHTF, I want a rifle that does have a lot of moving parts. I'm not bashing POF or Gas Piston systems. But if I'm in this situation I want the simplicity of the direct impingement and not a piston system. Not to mention the POF comes with a Timney trigger group(not bad, but not what I want in a fighting rifle).
Bradb55
Q: midlength gas system for less wear and tear, or, carbine system in case you have to find and replace the gas tube?
I tend to think a carbine gas system is best as you won't be burning through large amounts of ammo, thus making the wear and tear issue moot, but some unforeseen damage to the gas tube may make replacing a mid-length gas tube difficult..
Anyway, I vote a gen3 G19 (will be able to use both G17 and G19 mags, and it will be lighter and easier to conceal), and a Colt 6920. If you have the ability to have a second rifle, stored in your vehicle or house etc., I'd just have another one of the same (6920 in this case)..keep it simple and light, extra weight ought to go to more supplies and ammo, not other guns IMHO, as those extraneous guns will just have to be left behind, or cached, if you need to bug out, not to mention complicating your ammo and parts logistics. Luxury additions would maybe be to add a .22LR pistol for small game, and maybe a 12 gauge shotgun for hunting birds to deer.
IMO for a situation like any of the myriad of SHTF scenarios, a sidearm is nothing more than a backup or a tool to help you get to your rifle. Once your rifle is in hand, it should always be the primary.
I agree. The pistol is just easier to carry and you could use it to fight to your long gun. If you were truly in a combat situation you would not want your rifle more than arms length away.
Son of Vlad Tepes
I'm with on the mid gas vs. carbine gas. There would be more parts available for carbine in my area due to the fact the LEOs carry them for duty rifles. Sad fact is most of them have DPMS and Bushmasters sitting in their crusiers.
I'm not sure what the odds of having to replace the gas tube are, but sure as hell it would happen to me. I might order some now. lol
Beat Trash
11-26-10, 17:13
I agree. The pistol is just easier to carry and you could use it to fight to your long gun. If you were truly in a combat situation you would not want your rifle more than arms length away.
I agree that in a combat situation the rifle is the way to go.
But I also would argue for the importance of a handgun for a SHTF incident, in addition to a rifle/carbine.
During many types of SHTF incidents within CONUS, a handgun that can be carried at all times and also concealed can be vital. Being armed while being able to attend to non-combat related tasks and the ability to maintain a "low profile" has it's advantages. Especially during incidents such as natural disasters. Situations in which the "fighting" hasn't started yet, but local Law Enforcement is overwhelmed handling the incident. This is where the handgun plays more of a primary role than the secondary role it would play during a combat type environment.
I am not arguing that the handgun replace the rifle/carbine, but that one should have both at their disposal during such an incident.
Stoner_guy
11-26-10, 21:12
...others would bring up the AK-particularly the Arsenal, Inc. ones made in Nevada. They shoot tighter groups than regular Kalashnikovs yet keep all the attributes. Like your Glock, its more likely to continue functioning in the worst conditions imagineable. Ammo for it is plentiful and cheap-even here in the States. Talk about a SHTF or zombie gun, this is it!
pilotguyo540
11-26-10, 21:36
If you are worried about gas tube failure as a reason to go with carbine gas system, you are looking way too hard for a flaw. If you would have to cannabilize another rifle for its gas tube, why not just swap uppers??? If you are going to swap uppers, why not run the better one (middy) in the beginning???
I own both stoner and kalashnikov rifles. I would rather have my AR. Just a personal preference. Ergonomics second to none. I would never be without a rifle in a SHTF world.
If you are worried about gas tube failure as a reason to go with carbine gas system, you are looking way too hard for a flaw. If you would have to cannabilize another rifle for its gas tube, why not just swap uppers??? If you are going to swap uppers, why not run the better one (middy) in the beginning???
I own both stoner and kalashnikov rifles. I would rather have my AR. Just a personal preference. Ergonomics second to none. I would never be without a rifle in a SHTF world.
There is always the battle field pick up. Use what ever you can to keep in the fight.
My current standings are:
Primary: Noveske 16" middy AR with Aimpoint
Secondary: Springfield 1911 Mil-spec with Wilson mags
Third: Sar-8 in 308 (HK91 contract rifle made in Greece)
Wildcard: 10/22 with bull barrel & 3-9 scope
This covers everything in my book from taking small game for food to taking large "varmints" that present a threat.
chevy1981ehfield1943
12-02-10, 14:52
rifle, first, last, and always damn right, a pistol ain't good for nothing but fighting your way to a rifle
.
Primary: Right now it would be my 16 Daniel Defense middy with an ACOG.
Secondary: I would have to say my G19. I have a M&P Pro in 9mm that is new. Once I have enough rounds through it to where I am comfortable with the gun it might take the G19s place.
Third: I have a M1A but it is in a JAE stock with a 6.5-20 Mark 4 scope so I am not going to carry that thing anywhere, lol. I would pick one of my .22 rifles for this.
Wildcard: I really don’t have one for this. If I was staying near the house and not on the go I would pick one of my bows. It’s a nice and silent way to harvest game.
damn right, a pistol ain't good for nothing but fighting your way to a rifle
.
To clarify my position here: If stuff is already bad (i.e. a war) the obviously the rifle takes the primary role, but anything short of that, the pistol is concealable, and maintaining a low profile is very important. Thus, for everyday life, and until war ensues, the pistol is the primary.
If you are going to discuss "SHTF Fighting Guns", then in my mind you are talking about a carbine and a pistol per person.
A Glock 17/19 or an M&P in your holster and an AR of your choice (Colt 6920 for me).
Any more and you need a golf cart to transport.
Very true on the golf cart The weight adds up quick!
Very true on the golf cart The weight adds up quick!
It sure does add up. I know just a day in the woods with a deer rifle and jframe in my pocket and enough food and water for the day and I am Damn tired. For those of us with young children bugging in or bugging out by vehicle is the only real option.
If you are worried about gas tube failure as a reason to go with carbine gas system, you are looking way too hard for a flaw. If you would have to cannabilize another rifle for its gas tube, why not just swap uppers??? If you are going to swap uppers, why not run the better one (middy) in the beginning???
I own both stoner and kalashnikov rifles. I would rather have my AR. Just a personal preference. Ergonomics second to none. I would never be without a rifle in a SHTF world.
I'd probably argue a SBR would be my SHTF weapon rather than a middy with a 16"+ barrel. Any engagements outside it's range are better avoided and it's handier.
I'd probably argue a SBR would be my SHTF weapon rather than a middy with a 16"+ barrel. Any engagements outside it's range are better avoided and it's handier.
Well said. SBR for me too. Concealment is a huge plus.
...others would bring up the AK-particularly the Arsenal, Inc. ones made in Nevada. They shoot tighter groups than regular Kalashnikovs yet keep all the attributes. Like your Glock, its more likely to continue functioning in the worst conditions imagineable. Ammo for it is plentiful and cheap-even here in the States. Talk about a SHTF or zombie gun, this is it!
Honestly, as someone who's doing everything they can to get their hands on an SGL21-71.
I can tell you, I would absolutely not carry that gun in a SHTF.
I guarantee you at least double probably triple or quadruple the amount of civilians have AR's as AK's, every LE department has AR's just about, the entire military has AR's.
Which means parts, bullets and magazines are very accessible.
To me that matters most.
Honestly as for the SHTF weapons.
I'm thinking an AR SBR of whatever flavor, frankly, if you leave your house you're going to be carrying it everywhere, even on your own property you'll be carrying it everywhere. You'll be carrying it a heck of a lot more than using it (if you're smart, just because you have a rifle doesn't mean you need to shoot it, honestly, and frankly, getting into a gun fight in a situation where you may or may not get medical attention is a bad idea.).
The size and weight savings, availability of spare parts, IMHO, something like a Colt 6933 (or save yourself $300-400 and get an BCM 11 NFA Carbine (same thing, virtually, adheres to all the same tests/standards)) would be ideal.
I'd say that with an Aimpoint, EoTech's are out, the battery life sucks, and if it's a situation when you use what you can carry, I wouldn't bother with an EoTech, I want something I can leave on for years. I think the Comp M4 looks good for that because it can take AA batteries and has the longest battery life (Approximately 100,000 hrs was it?) in a 2 MOA dot.
That's how I'd run it.
Handguns... Honestly I don't know if I'd bring a handgun... maybe, but... if you're carrying everything you own and weight matters, why carry 4-5 extra lbs, when you could carry 3-4 more AR magazines than a handgun?
Just my opinion.
Glocks are great, M&P's are great, don't think you could go wrong, with a 3rd gen Glock 17 though, they're out there for cheap too.
ETA: I'd say the most important thing is a gun that can A) Run on less/reliably and B) you can most likely find parts/magazines/ammunition for.
That's a boring way to view it, but IMHO, the best way to view it.
Definitely a rifle would be primary. Preferably an AR for me. A handgun will fill a role. If SHTF and in a "grid down" situation, there will be periods of manual labor needed where it won't be practical to have a rifle on ones self. This is where a handgun will allow immediate access to a way to defend yourself....until you can get back to your rifle.
Just something else to think about.
I own 3 AR's two have M4's because of the excellent battery life and ease of locating batteries. The third gun has a TR24G all three are good to go. If it came down to weight I would ditch the aimpoints and trijicon for an A1/2 upper or a fixed DD, LMT or LaRue rear sight and take a pistol with me.
pilotguyo540
12-04-10, 11:42
I'd probably argue a SBR would be my SHTF weapon rather than a middy with a 16"+ barrel. Any engagements outside it's range are better avoided and it's handier.
Sound logic sir. I was mainly arguing against the gas tube argument. An sbr would be awesome. Where I live, they are strictly forbidden. I would have an upper sitting around just in case, but I think there would be problems with "constructive intent." I could build an ar pistol so I can have the upper I want. It is a catch 22 for those of us referred to as "citizen." I would add that if going the SBR route, run your gun hard and make sure you have any bugs worked out ahead of time.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-04-10, 14:10
A Kahr PM9 and one extra mag for self-defense.
A Ruger 10/22 or break-down Marlin Papoose with threaded barrel and suppressor.
If there is all-out war in the streets then you are going to be dead, so you might as well load up some magic mushrooms and heroin so you can enjoy your last day or so on earth.
If you are bugging out, however, I think the above set up is ideal. They can be broken down and hidden in your car or backpack so you don't get shot by someone who is afraid of your being armed. The pistol is to shoot those who come to get your stuff and rape your family ( or to rape your stuff and get your family if they are really bad) and to kill hungry dogs who attack you while you are taking a leak.
The 10/22 with suppressor and 4x scope will feed you as squirrels and rats will be the only edible animals left after about 4 months. You can also use them to kill people quietly in a pinch (I wouldn't advise this, bad karma).
GHB
civiliansheepdog
11-04-15, 19:10
Sorry to bring back this old thread, but with all that's going on in the world with our weak ass POTUS, I thought it would bring it back up.I'm more concerned with a Russia/China EMP over Denver that puts us back into the age before electronics.
Anyway, I'm contemplating a 5.45 AK from Definitive Arms or a PSA/BCM build in 5.56. All reasoning points the AR bc of parts, mags, and ammo during SHTF. However, the ability to store copious amounts of 5.45 is affordable plus, it's hard to deny the shear survivability of anything AK.
Sorry to bring back this old thread, but with all that's going on in the world with our weak ass POTUS, I thought it would bring it back up.I'm more concerned with a Russia/China EMP over Denver that puts us back into the age before electronics.
Anyway, I'm contemplating a 5.45 AK from Definitive Arms or a PSA/BCM build in 5.56. All reasoning points the AR bc of parts, mags, and ammo during SHTF. However, the ability to store copious amounts of 5.45 is affordable plus, it's hard to deny the shear survivability of anything AK.
I'd run with the AR at this point. AK's are great rifles and all, but the advantages to buying an AK are coming to an end.
-AK rifles are just as expensive or more than a comparable AR pattern rifle
-There may not always be 5.45 in the states, especially in this political climate.
-Even 7.62x39 ammo is increasing in price.
On the other hand, the AK aftermarket has really taken off in the past couple of years. Only you can determine what pattern rifle you prefer.
Singlestack Wonder
11-04-15, 19:53
Sorry to bring back this old thread, but with all that's going on in the world with our weak ass POTUS, I thought it would bring it back up.I'm more concerned with a Russia/China EMP over Denver that puts us back into the age before electronics.
Anyway, I'm contemplating a 5.45 AK from Definitive Arms or a PSA/BCM build in 5.56. All reasoning points the AR bc of parts, mags, and ammo during SHTF. However, the ability to store copious amounts of 5.45 is affordable plus, it's hard to deny the shear survivability of anything AK.
Wouldn't worry about an emp. Movies and TV tend to vastly over-hype the phenomena. Take a look at this video from 1957. Nuclear bomb exploded just 18,000 feet above them. Granted only a 2 kiloton unit but notice how their primitive tape recorder still continues to work fine.
http://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2012/07/16/156851175/five-men-agree-to-stand-directly-under-an-exploding-nuclear-bomb
civiliansheepdog
11-04-15, 20:53
I kindly, but most certainly, disagree.
HighDesert
11-04-15, 22:09
Sorry to bring back this old thread, but with all that's going on in the world with our weak ass POTUS, I thought it would bring it back up.I'm more concerned with a Russia/China EMP over Denver that puts us back into the age before electronics.
Anyway, I'm contemplating a 5.45 AK from Definitive Arms or a PSA/BCM build in 5.56. All reasoning points the AR bc of parts, mags, and ammo during SHTF. However, the ability to store copious amounts of 5.45 is affordable plus, it's hard to deny the shear survivability of anything AK.
Do you have kids or will you in the near future?
I kindly, but most certainly, disagree.
Since you've brought the topic back to the front, I wonder what reason you have to so ardently disagree?
Aside from that point, any electronics would have to be active at the moment EMP saturation occurs.
civiliansheepdog
11-05-15, 06:55
Do you have kids or will you in the near future?
Two, both under 3.
civiliansheepdog
11-05-15, 06:58
Since you've brought the topic back to the front, I wonder what reason you have to so ardently disagree?
Aside from that point, any electronics would have to be active at the moment EMP saturation occurs.
I don't have the time to explain the vast and overwhelming evidence against your opinion, but just Google EMP threat and maybe your opinion will be swayed. Not that this is real proof, but we have an entire oganazation, the EMP Commission, dedicated to these types of threats.
sevenhelmet
11-05-15, 07:01
Since you've brought the topic back to the front, I wonder what reason you have to so ardently disagree?
Aside from that point, any electronics would have to be active at the moment EMP saturation occurs.
It's OK to try and explain Leuthas, but for some reason, there is a group of people on the site who seem to fear an EMP attack above all else. Never mind that it's a nuclear device, there isn't one powerful enough to destroy the entire country's grid, and if an enemy did actually use an EMP (or several), it would most likely be part of a coordinated nuclear attack, meaning we'd have bigger problems than the power grid. I'll be unpopular for saying it, but I really doubt it will happen that way.
More likely is a series of terrorist attacks on the power grid itself, which leave you with functional electronics, but no centralized power source.
More likely than an EMP would be a solar flare. Similar effect to some extent, different cause. Even then, electronics which were powered down and/or unplugged would still be functional once the grid was back up and running (most sources I've seen say this would take no more than a year in 99.99% of cases.)
So the EMP-fearing crowd is looking at an extreme corner case. Again, not saying its impossible, but there are a hell of a lot of disasters that are more likely, most of them caused or worsened by our own idiotic government. Now go ahead and tell me why I'm wrong, because I'm sure someone is reading this and thinking just that.
Sorry to perpetuate the threadjack.
civiliansheepdog
11-05-15, 08:16
That's just my opinion. Quite frankly, I'm worried about the attitude that our country is some how impervious to being brought back to the stone age. Hell, maybe the dollar collapses. Maybe there's a outcry of violence that sweeps the countryside if Cruz or Trump gets elected. I don't know. But something is coming IMO that will change how we do things day to day.
HighDesert
11-05-15, 09:57
Two, both under 3.
You're kinda ****ed then. Survival rate for kids under 10 during middle age times was horrific.
I'd move to a different part of the world if you're seriously worried about emp attacks in the US considering you have little ones you care about and who would most likely die, if this happened to the degree you are certain it will.
Otherwise look into best home euthanasia methods and live life as you would until you need to use it...
You're kinda ****ed then. Survival rate for kids under 10 during middle age times was horrific.
I'd move to a different part of the world if you're seriously worried about emp attacks in the US considering you have little ones you care about and who would most likely die, if this happened to the degree you are certain it will.
Otherwise look into best home euthanasia methods and live life as you would until you need to use it...
Wtf are you talking about, guy?
civiliansheepdog
11-05-15, 10:21
You're kinda ****ed then. Survival rate for kids under 10 during middle age times was horrific.
I'd move to a different part of the world if you're seriously worried about emp attacks in the US considering you have little ones you care about and who would most likely die, if this happened to the degree you are certain it will.
Otherwise look into best home euthanasia methods and live life as you would until you need to use it...
Thanks for the encouraging and positive thoughts Desert. It's a miracle that the human race survived at all. Surely, we wouldn't have made it this far with optimists such as yourself.
civiliansheepdog
11-05-15, 11:50
Back to topic. I'm following another active thread on here that's discussing the terminal performance of certain 5.56 rounds. The discussion has brought up that the Army has recently adopted the M855A1 and the Marines have adopted the MK318 mod0. These are a few of the reasons I'm concerned with a 5.56 AR, as the cost for good, consistent rounds is significant over 7N6 or 69 gr. Red Army Standard in 5.45x39. Both 5.45 round are outstanding terminal performers in soft tissue that are cheaper than ball 9mm. If I was made of money, I would just stockpile 64 gr. GD or Barnes 70 gr. TSX rounds, but depending on Wolf Gold or XM193 isn't very reassuring.
HighDesert
11-05-15, 13:07
...Surely, we wouldn't have made it this far with optimists such as yourself.
...says the guy worried about an EMP attack sending us back to the middle ages...
Since you are asking: I think the fact that 223/556 is the largely universal LE and military rifle chambering and due to its extreme popularity in the US, should alone make your decision easy as it will be by far the most readily available.
If your doomsday scenario does happen, I think you will have astronomically larger things to worry about than what platform you need, especially if you have 2 small children.
Hope you find what you're looking for.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ECUtkv2qV8
To the Op. My advice for a rifle that fits your role is make a list of requirements. Actually write them down so its in front of you. Then put them in order.
Number the requirements in order of importance of 5-10 (etc) at a time. From most unquestionably top 5-10 of requirements the rifle must meet,
to the next 5-10 that are maybe just things that would be nice to have but maybe not necessary for the rifle to fulfill its requirments.
It can be a list of 100 or whatever, but number them in actual importance at 5-10 at a time. Then be honest about your needs. Select a riflle and check what items it meets and skip the ones it doesn't or might not. It either meets them or doesn't and go from there and decide what you can compromise on and what you can not.
This can vary from things like balance,feel,weight, to performance durability etc.
example- For Ar type rifle. Is a comfortable streamlined free float rail with flip ups more important then one that allows fixed FSB? Do you feel you may have to use irons if at all? Is the optic tough enough.Batteries? fiber optics? Neither?... If using rail mounted buis or accessories can your rail possibly take getting slammed in car door?Fallen on, dropped? Does free float even matter that much or at all for you. Are you going to be in or around salt water., mud, all four seasons? (etc) does the rail have to be removable. Can you interface with the weapon with cold hands, sweaty hand, gloves (etc). Is it outfitted to be best at performance or survival or both? We could cover a lot, but as long as it fills its intended role for you.
Write down honest things it must do for you and to survive its environments. Theres so much information and experience on this site. If you do enough research and reading I'm sure you will find what you need to help you with your decisions. best of luck.
civiliansheepdog
11-05-15, 18:30
...says the guy worried about an EMP attack sending us back to the middle ages...
Since you are asking: I think the fact that 223/556 is the largely universal LE and military rifle chambering and due to its extreme popularity in the US, should alone make your decision easy as it will be by far the most readily available.
If your doomsday scenario does happen, I think you will have astronomically larger things to worry about than what platform you need, especially if you have 2 small children.
Hope you find what you're looking for.
So if I see a possible rainstorm on the horizon and get an umbrella, I'm a pessimistic crazy person?! Ok. You are right about bigger fish to fry during SHTF, tho.
Worrying about guns when SHTF is a waste of time. Guns are pretty clear cut, especially for people on this forum who probably own at least 1 gun for these situations, if not a dozen (or more). A rifle is your first line of defense. If you are worried about an EMP, get something without batteries for an optic. If you want a pistol there are a lot of good choices, but Glock seems to come to everyone's mind first.
But seriously, we know you have a gun you will use. Do you have water? Do you have food and a way to cook it? Can you stay out of the elements and away from others? Can you keep yourself clean and do you understand basic medicine enough to keep your family alive? All these things will kill you before long before anyone normal thinks about shooting you.
civiliansheepdog
11-05-15, 19:02
Worrying about guns when SHTF is a waste of time. Guns are pretty clear cut, especially for people on this forum who probably own at least 1 gun for these situations, if not a dozen (or more). A rifle is your first line of defense. If you are worried about an EMP, get something without batteries for an optic. If you want a pistol there are a lot of good choices, but Glock seems to come to everyone's mind first.
But seriously, we know you have a gun you will use. Do you have water? Do you have food and a way to cook it? Can you stay out of the elements and away from others? Can you keep yourself clean and do you understand basic medicine enough to keep your family alive? All these things will kill you before long before anyone normal thinks about shooting you.
Right on. Thanks.
TacticalSledgehammer
11-26-15, 21:33
I built up my 6920 for my shtf gun. I also have a glock 35. Along side that I also have a mak 90 and another pistol. If things ever got bad, the wife and I would take it all and go.
Both rifle platforms have strengths and weaknesses. Having said that the ar15 is number 1 in finding spare parts to keep it running. The ak probably isn't far too behind.
Beat Trash
11-28-15, 23:20
In five years of this topic going, my answer hasn't changed much at all.
A 9mm pistol, either a Glock or an M&P, and an AR. A Colt 6920 is still a valid choice. Although I now prefer a mid length 16" gun with a folding front sight, and would include a quality 1x4 optic.
Worrying about guns when SHTF is a waste of time. Guns are pretty clear cut, especially for people on this forum who probably own at least 1 gun for these situations, if not a dozen (or more). A rifle is your first line of defense. If you are worried about an EMP, get something without batteries for an optic. If you want a pistol there are a lot of good choices, but Glock seems to come to everyone's mind first.
But seriously, we know you have a gun you will use. Do you have water? Do you have food and a way to cook it? Can you stay out of the elements and away from others? Can you keep yourself clean and do you understand basic medicine enough to keep your family alive? All these things will kill you before long before anyone normal thinks about shooting you.
Well done sir.
Sent via telegraph with the same fingers I use to sip whiskey.
I am not real sure of what a SHTF would be and a pistol is used to fight you way to a rifle but I'll bet a pistol will be with you mostly. Who knows .
Son of Vlad Tepes
I'm with on the mid gas vs. carbine gas. There would be more parts available for carbine in my area due to the fact the LEOs carry them for duty rifles. Sad fact is most of them have DPMS and Bushmasters sitting in their crusiers.
I'm not sure what the odds of having to replace the gas tube are, but sure as hell it would happen to me. I might order some now. lol they are good enough.
In all seriousness in regards to rifles, what about a 10/22? The AR platform would be the obvious choice for combat, but in a SHTF scenario consider a few things:
Weight and ammunition capacity
A 10/22 is going to weigh a lot less than any AR platform. Granted the AR is a relatively light weapon as it is but add on lights, rails, optics, and anything else guys like on their weapons and it adds up fast. The biggest factor in this though is ammunition. 5.56/.223 ammo gets heavy quick. There is also only so much of it you can reasonably carry on your body at a time (as with any caliber). For what, for example, a standard combat load of 210 rounds of 5.56 would weigh you could have that many more rounds of .22lr on your body and in your ruck (if you are bugging out on foot). With that, consider moving on foot with gear for extended periods is exhausting and ammunition is only one part of the equation. Food, water, medical supplies, navigation equipment, and other supplies will need to be accounted for and effectively carried on your body. Burning energy by carrying more weight than you need to is going to diminish your supplies, increase fatigue, and overall diminish your survivability. This brings me to my next point.
Purpose
While an AR series weapon may be best for shooting people is that your main purpose for it in a SHTF scenario? If things really do go south you may need your rifle for other purposes, like hunting. You are not going to be able to hunt squirrel and smaller game with an AR15. Stopping power against a human threat or big game is definitely lacking with a .22 but if you shoot someone with any weapon, without advanced medical assistance that person is probably going to die due to infection or other causes related to the wound later on down the road. However, down the road is not immediately when it matters. Shot placement can be argued for here, but this is the one advantage I can see to 5.56.
Attention
I remember reading a very good article by someone who was in a SHTF scenario in Bosnia in the 1990’s (I think, can’t find the article). The author made a very good point about people being targeted and killed for their valuables. Specifically mentioned were nice weapons. Carrying a decked out AR with free float rails, optic, flashlights, and other goodies is going to draw A LOT of attention as opposed to a 10/22 in a society where the economy has collapsed and people are back to good old fashion bartering.
civiliansheepdog
12-31-15, 19:29
^ This all makes perfect sense....for a certain type of SHTF. Everyone's idea and actual circumstances will vary. The above is a terrible idea if one has a functional homestead and will be bugging in. If you are going to bug out and be on foot, then the above load out applies.
I would rather carry the weight of an AR in 5.56 and when good 300 blk subs come to market I'd take those for silent needs
These threads are sort of comical I think. Everyone thinks they are going to become a mixture Davey Crockett and beowulf immediately. In all honesty the govt has done research on the subject their best guess in a total collapse well over 50% of the USA population is dead inside the first 45 days. 80% or so in 6 months. Honestly I'm going to get a couple good cigars, some nice t-bones or ribeyes and a bottle of high end scotch and watch the show because no one is getting out of it alive.
Let's be honest if you live in a city you're probably f***** anyways. Not everyone, but a good percentage. Everyone's plan is "to go to the hills" where are these mysterious hills that everyone is going to, but no one else will be there? I've spent the majority of my life in very remote places and let me tell you, people ARE EVERYWHERE! They will be competing for limited food resources, and how many people truly know how to keep meat fresh enough to be safe to eat for a length of time? Or hell just how to butcher large animals? Cutting up a rabbit is one thing, hanging and cutting up a beef with very limited resources with just one or two people, IS A BITCH!!
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Not everyone, but a good percentage.
Wouldn't you think that the percentage that does make it is preparing by asking these type questions?
They will be competing for limited food resources, and how many people truly know how to keep meat fresh enough to be safe to eat for a length of time?
Uh, jerky, it isn't rocket science.
Or hell just how to butcher large animals? Cutting up a rabbit is one thing, hanging and cutting up a beef with very limited resources with just one or two people, IS A BITCH!!
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Really? Dang I didn't know that. So, even for those of us whose daddy wasn't a butcher, butchering a deer doesn't cross deck at all?
I read this thread often, don't post much, but dang guy, these are the folks who are planning to be in the surviving percentage.
Really? Dang I didn't know that. So, even for those of us whose daddy wasn't a butcher, butchering a deer doesn't cross deck at all?
I read this thread often, don't post much, but dang guy, these are the folks who are planning to be in the surviving percentage.
Oh I know their are most definitely, but as you probably well know the best laid plans rarely survive initial contact. If you don't live in a major city your chances probably increase exponentially.
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When the SHTF it will not be a one and done situation. It will be a never ending fight for survival, first against the "zombies" then against each other and then against nature and at some times against all of the above... At some point you will run out of ammo and then you will have a new battle to fight w/o guns!?!?
Your best weapon is between your ears, learn how to use it and never get stuck in analysis paralysis
Run out of ammo? Whatever do you mean? XD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xeHPdm7e-Y
If you don't live in a major city your chances probably increase exponentially.
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This is my #1 prep. However, I do live in those hills that everyone is headed to. For most situations I am bugging in. IF I have to leave, as long as I have 1 hour notice I am in good shape. IF I don't, I am still better than most. IF I have to hike... well, I am old, but stubborn and have a plan and a place and a route.
My biggest problem is that more than likely when SHTF (murphy's law)... I will be in the city and have to get home. That will be the problem. (Murphy was an optimist after all)
Almost six years later my guns haven't changed. I don't have the TR-24 or middy anymore. I miss both of them. The G22 is still my work gun. I have one at home too. I carry a S&W Shield in 9mm now. As my back up and off duty gun. I sold my G27. It was too snappy for me to shoot well beyond 10 yards.
You're kinda ****ed then. Survival rate for kids under 10 during middle age times was horrific.
How did you get back to the Middle Ages? Loss of power? That would be the 1800's at worst.
In all seriousness in regards to rifles, what about a 10/22? The AR platform would be the obvious choice for combat, but in a SHTF scenario consider a few things:
Greg mentions a 10-22. Walking around carrying any long gun will draw negative attention. Especially alone. There is safety in number.
My car gun is a 15-22 with a light, two point sling and an old Aimpoint M2. It is the gun I shoot most and I leave it in the car. If necessary it could be used to fight with. A takedown 10-22 would be great too and would fit in a smaller bag. I built a 10-22 with an APG folding stock and their removable barell. It's pretty cool. Their SBR option is even cooler.
These threads are sort of comical I think. Everyone thinks they are going to become a mixture Davey Crockett and beowulf immediately. In all honesty the govt has done research on the subject their best guess in a total collapse well over 50% of the USA population is dead inside the first 45 days. 80% or so in 6 months. Honestly I'm going to get a couple good cigars, some nice t-bones or ribeyes and a bottle of high end scotch and watch the show because no one is getting out of it alive.
Let's be honest if you live in a city you're probably f***** anyways. Not everyone, but a good percentage. Everyone's plan is "to go to the hills" where are these mysterious hills that everyone is going to, but no one else will be there? I've spent the majority of my life in very remote places and let me tell you, people ARE EVERYWHERE! They will be competing for limited food resources, and how many people truly know how to keep meat fresh enough to be safe to eat for a length of time? Or hell just how to butcher large animals? Cutting up a rabbit is one thing, hanging and cutting up a beef with very limited resources with just one or two people, IS A BITCH!!
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I'd be interested in reading the studies. Do you have a link? Thanks.
Really? Dang I didn't know that. So, even for those of us whose daddy wasn't a butcher, butchering a deer doesn't cross deck at all?
I read this thread often, don't post much, but dang guy, these are the folks who are planning to be in the surviving percentage.
Much of it is common sense.
.
I'd be interested in reading the studies. Do you have a link?
I looked and can't find it. I remember reading it on the hide circa 2011.
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I hear a lot of comments about how the ar-15 may not be the best rifle for all scenarios, but I would like to disagree to some extent. Only because i feel that many are overlooking how versatile the weapon system really is. the fact that I can have a 5.56 upper on it 90% of the time and be able to throw in a .22 bolt and magazine if and when I would like to go squirrel hunting is a huge plus. Not to mention you could have a 300 blackout upper as well if you felt you needed to take bigger game. Granted I know some might ask if I was planning on carrying multiple uppers on me and the answer would be no, but I am just stating the possibility of the firearm itself. For me this solution works as I live in the country and would be bugging in for as long as possible, so I can grab whatever weapon system I deem necessary for whatever goal I have at the time i.e. squirrel, deer, or bird hunting or just pulling security around my property. But thats just my .02 cents.
TacticalSledgehammer
01-10-16, 13:22
When the SHTF it will not be a one and done situation. It will be a never ending fight for survival, first against the "zombies" then against each other and then against nature and at some times against all of the above... At some point you will run out of ammo and then you will have a new battle to fight w/o guns!?!?
Your best weapon is between your ears, learn how to use it and never get stuck in analysis paralysis
People seem to always they'll be alive long enough to effectively use up all their stockpiled ammo. I'm not saying that goes to you or anyone on here specifically, but almost everyone I talk to or read (on the forums) has this mindset.
I think one should use whatever weapons they have on hand. Learn proficiency, stock up on spare parts, ammo, PPE, food, water, medical supplies, and knowledge of how to use it all in the best manner. These discussions are fun, but in all seriousness, this^is what I usually tell people.
Averageman
01-13-16, 11:58
An AR and a G17. It's hard to go wrong with BCM and Glock.
I don't think it will be a lot of running and gunning. I think it will an annoying backslide in to pre refrigeration and electric lights era, perhaps highlighted by occasional riots within the inner city and remnants of the FSA rolling out my way.
There are a lot more things to worry about than Zombie hoards, some strain of flu or virus taking out huge swaths of the population because we cannot refrigerate enough vaccine to get to folks outside of the area's it would be made in. A major crop failure rolling through the gardens that were once the backyards of the suburbs.
I'm about knee high in ammo and have the capability and skill to make at least that much again. I however cannot make a tetanus shot.
It will be a race to get technology up and running before we have a die off.
An AR and a G17. It's hard to go wrong with BCM and Glock.
I don't think it will be a lot of running and gunning. I think it will an annoying backslide in to pre refrigeration and electric lights era, perhaps highlighted by occasional riots within the inner city and remnants of the FSA rolling out my way.
There are a lot more things to worry about than Zombie hoards, some strain of flu or virus taking out huge swaths of the population because we cannot refrigerate enough vaccine to get to folks outside of the area's it would be made in. A major crop failure rolling through the gardens that were once the backyards of the suburbs.
I'm about knee high in ammo and have the capability and skill to make at least that much again. I however cannot make a tetanus shot.
It will be a race to get technology up and running before we have a die off.
Medical care is definitely a huge concern. Clean water, sanitation, food and food storage are obviously huge more immediate issues to deal with.
Moose-Knuckle
02-05-16, 03:35
An AR and a G17. It's hard to go wrong with BCM and Glock.
I don't think it will be a lot of running and gunning. I think it will an annoying backslide in to pre refrigeration and electric lights era, perhaps highlighted by occasional riots within the inner city and remnants of the FSA rolling out my way.
There are a lot more things to worry about than Zombie hoards, some strain of flu or virus taking out huge swaths of the population because we cannot refrigerate enough vaccine to get to folks outside of the area's it would be made in. A major crop failure rolling through the gardens that were once the backyards of the suburbs.
I'm about knee high in ammo and have the capability and skill to make at least that much again. I however cannot make a tetanus shot.
It will be a race to get technology up and running before we have a die off.
The die off will occur long before many even realize they have need of planting a crop.
Medical care is definitely a huge concern. Clean water, sanitation, food and food storage are obviously huge more immediate issues to deal with.
To be quite honest, its more access to medications than anything. A surgeon can still operate using a boiling pot of water to sterilize, but if you cant hold still, or die of post op infection, youre still dead.
The non surgical physicians will be even more useless. Great diagnostic skills and education, limited ability to influence the course of disease.
Not to even consider the already chronically ill folks kept alive by meds.
Freethought
02-05-16, 06:39
Worrying about guns when SHTF is a waste of time. Guns are pretty clear cut, especially for people on this forum who probably own at least 1 gun for these situations, if not a dozen (or more). A rifle is your first line of defense. If you are worried about an EMP, get something without batteries for an optic. If you want a pistol there are a lot of good choices, but Glock seems to come to everyone's mind first.
But seriously, we know you have a gun you will use. Do you have water? Do you have food and a way to cook it? Can you stay out of the elements and away from others? Can you keep yourself clean and do you understand basic medicine enough to keep your family alive? All these things will kill you before long before anyone normal thinks about shooting you.
Most relevant post within the thread to this point. Though I will add a specific point , to a certain degree firearms are a horses for courses issue , what may well be valid in one locale may well be sub optimal in another locale.
An example , if I'm in the Far North where I spend much of my time ( this within the designated weapons framework) I'm unlikely to choose the same weapons that I would in the lower 48. Even in the lower 48 the choices may well change with factors such as urban versus rural (mountain) environments.
And of course there is still the issue briefly touched by Cokie and others , is the situation of a "survival" nature , is it purely defensive? If the latter is the likely primary aggressor two legged with bad intent? A 4 legged ursine or ungulate in a bad mood?
Freethought
02-05-16, 06:47
Really? Dang I didn't know that. So, even for those of us whose daddy wasn't a butcher, butchering a deer doesn't cross deck at all?
I read this thread often, don't post much, but dang guy, these are the folks who are planning to be in the surviving percentage.
You may have missed his point. A hypothetical question , do you have the necessary skills beyond the butchering skills? I.E. the necessary meat preservation skills , because during the summer months you'll find those skills to be of crucial necessity even in the locale where I spend a goodly portion of my time.
Even in Larsens Bay you're not preserving a moose , deer , bear etc in the summer months without the aforementioned skills , which of course brings forth the issue of how you hide the telltale traces of such tasks.
Know what feeds you much of the year in the Far North? A trotline ,net or fishtrap , a trapline and/or a .22 rifle.
SHTF when the grocery stores run out of food, lol
Why worry about a population that will die of exposure, dehydration and/or eventually starvation within 21 days?
Invasion by a foreign power? If my brothers fail to stop whatever band of foreign villains actually succeeded at invading the USA then all hope would be lost as no civilian mob would stand a chance against such a formidable force.
I'd try to find my way to the border of a country not yet invaded and sneak across with my family.
That means that a SHTF Rifle for me would need to be small enough to hide in my refugee gear and preferably of a caliber used either by our forces or an invader's force.
Anyone know where I could find an M4 upper chambered in 5.8×42mm?
Freethought
02-05-16, 07:29
SHTF when the grocery stores run out of food, lol
Why worry about a population that will die of exposure, dehydration and/or eventually starvation within 21 days?
Invasion by a foreign power? If my brothers fail to stop whatever band of foreign villains actually succeeded at invading the USA then all hope would be lost as no civilian mob would stand a chance against such a formidable force.
I'd try to find my way to the border of a country not yet invaded and sneak across with my family.
That means that a SHTF Rifle for me would need to be small enough to hide in my refugee gear and preferably of a caliber used either by our forces or an invader's force.
Anyone know where I could find an M4 upper chambered in 5.8×42mm?
I would agree , within the context of the areas that are urban and/or within range of those areas. Folks who are further out and/or relatively isolated may well last quite a bit longer. Those with a degree of "primitive" skills and a degree of experience surviving a subsistence lifestyle will no doubt be a great deal better off.
We are in SHTF right now. The vast majority are just ignorant to anything other that TV and sports all is well. The threat is from the federal and state governments and its employees.
RamadiDoorkicker
02-07-16, 16:57
Let's be honest if you live in a city you're probably f***** anyways. Not everyone, but a good percentage. Everyone's plan is "to go to the hills" where are these mysterious hills that everyone is going to, but no one else will be there?
I live in these hills. And depending on how nicely you ask, I may or may not let you shack up in my barn when you come knocking.
IMHO, you may need overwhelming firepower to fight your way out of the city (if you live in a major metro area) but that is the only time. For anyone living in a smaller city or rural area, you need a load easy to move under. I know it looks bad-ass to be kitted out with a plate carrier, 8 magazines, rifle, pistol, fighting knife, utility knife, pocket knife, and tomahawk. After a day of wearing it, you'll throw it over the back of the chair where it will stay. I have spent days on end humping gear and it sucks.
Keep it light weight. An AR with 1-4 and a warbelt with side arm, extra mag or two, knife, and a utility pouch. Same principles are used for concealed carry. A full size 1911 is great for a firefight but not worth a shit if you never carry it because it is heavy and uncomfortable. You will be moving around your property tending animals, firewood, or performing chores. Trying doing that while wearing a plate carrier!
We are in SHTF right now. The vast majority are just ignorant to anything other that TV and sports all is well. The threat is from the federal and state governments and its employees.
I guess that places a lot of us in your crosshairs...
I guess that places a lot of us in your crosshairs...
Yeah, no kidding.
I wonder if people who feel that way ever consider that people like us are their neighbors and equally at the mercy of our employers.
Considered by many. Many also consider that law enforcement misconduct is rarely reported by other officers.
Unfortunately, circumstances have brought it to the point where many people see LE as not necessarily evil, but also not necessarily good.
While living in NOLA, there was a common saying, "Better to be carjacked than pulled over by NOPD." That attitude now permeates most of America. Are there good LE? Of course. The public just wonders why the good LE aren't arresting the bad. Their misconduct doesn't happen in a vacuum. And that is a cause for concern and a cause for questioning.
Yeah, no kidding.
I wonder if people who feel that way ever consider that people like us are their neighbors and equally at the mercy of our employers.
I'm definitely a friend of LEO'S but should our paths cross, I'll be skittish as hell around you until I get a feel for you. I'm extremely distrustful of LE organizations and groups of officers. Then it often transfers into group think and policies which often times in today's society are downright Orwellien. The county I'm in is about as Socialists as you can ask for, while other counties in my state can be absolutely wonderful.
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Freethought
02-09-16, 19:58
Considered by many. Many also consider that law enforcement misconduct is rarely reported by other officers.
Unfortunately, circumstances have brought it to the point where many people see LE as not necessarily evil, but also not necessarily good.
While living in NOLA, there was a common saying, "Better to be carjacked than pulled over by NOPD." That attitude now permeates most of America. Are there good LE? Of course. The public just wonders why the good LE aren't arresting the bad. Their misconduct doesn't happen in a vacuum. And that is a cause for concern and a cause for questioning.
Hhhhmmmm , so you pick the most corrupt dept in the country as an example to back your point? Isn't that a bit like judging every firearms owner on the criteria of the actions of 18th Street , West Side Locos etc?
LowSpeed_HighDrag
02-09-16, 22:48
Considered by many. Many also consider that law enforcement misconduct is rarely reported by other officers.
Unfortunately, circumstances have brought it to the point where many people see LE as not necessarily evil, but also not necessarily good.
While living in NOLA, there was a common saying, "Better to be carjacked than pulled over by NOPD." That attitude now permeates most of America. Are there good LE? Of course. The public just wonders why the good LE aren't arresting the bad. Their misconduct doesn't happen in a vacuum. And that is a cause for concern and a cause for questioning.
:rolleyes:
RioGrandeGreen
02-10-16, 13:43
Yeah were all bad!
http://www.kvia.com/news/person-shot-downtown-suspect-in-custody/37828462
http://www.kvia.com/news/victim-of-attempted-carjacking-speaking-out-after-border-patrol-shooting/37873210
Most of my arsenal is geared towards a 2A situation... you know, refreshing the old tree of liberty.
If you're planning on shooting it out in the streets or the woods with the suited psychopaths' hired muscle, you're going at it all wrong. If you're waiting until they're kicking down your door, you're doing it wrong too.
Everybody is vulnerable sometime, somewhere. Everybody has to go to sleep at night. Assassinations, ambushes, sniper attacks, concentrated attacks against vulnerable targets, then melting back into the populace would be the order of the day. An arsenal geared towards these tactics makes the most sense to me.
Moose-Knuckle
02-11-16, 01:16
Everybody is vulnerable sometime, somewhere. Everybody has to go to sleep at night. Assassinations, ambushes, sniper attacks, concentrated attacks against vulnerable targets, then melting back into the populace would be the order of the day. An arsenal geared towards these tactics makes the most sense to me.
I see you have read The Gulag Archipelago, wished more would . . .
I guess that places a lot of us in your crosshairs...I have no one in my cross hairs
Water.
I have a fairly defensible position and plenty of weapons and ammo. Can you imagine about 3 days without water?
I've been putting it off, but a well with a manual pump is a must.
Oh. And here's something stupid, to show just how fleeting life could be. Caffeine. I'm addicted to caffeine. One full day without and I'm no good to anyone. Chills, cold sweats, migraine, then throw up and repeat. I don't have any idea what the second day would be like.
AR and Glock G43 or like.
I see you have read The Gulag Archipelago, wished more would . . .
I actually never have read it. It's definitely on the list though. I did however run across this excellent quote from Volume II which made quite an impression on me:
And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.
Thought provoking stuff. Easy to say in 20/20 hindsight what you should have done, but its hard to know when that moment is that you have nothing to lose when you are in the moment. One must constantly be very honest with oneself about whether that point has been reached. Also I think it is better to err on the side of going hot too soon rather than too late. It's always going to be easier to say "I'll put up with it now, but if they deny me one more liberty, that'll be it!"
Moose-Knuckle
02-12-16, 00:33
I actually never have read it. It's definitely on the list though. I did however run across this excellent quote from Volume II which made quite an impression on me:
Thought provoking stuff. Easy to say in 20/20 hindsight what you should have done, but its hard to know when that moment is that you have nothing to lose when you are in the moment. One must constantly be very honest with oneself about whether that point has been reached. Also I think it is better to err on the side of going hot too soon rather than too late. It's always going to be easier to say "I'll put up with it now, but if they deny me one more liberty, that'll be it!"
That is why the 2nd Amendment and all it entails is the lynchpin . . .
Reminder, this thread is "SHTF Fighting Gun(s): Getting Thoughts on Paper - Feedback Welcome". Not every thread needs to be infected with your political or social outrage, especially those that are about guns, ammo, training, gear, etc...our core purpose. Off topic content removed.
No matter which platform we may have ,Ammo mags ,spare parts and may be another like platform for compatibility.
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