View Full Version : Need help with idea: emergency rifle upper.
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-20-10, 08:29
Hey guys,
I have always been intrigued by the idea of a sort of doomsday/no bs emergency rifle upper for my M16. Something along the lines of the early downed aircrew/emergency rifle. I want it to be ultracompact, sturdy and lightweight. With zero electronics, etc. But I want as many improvements as are availible. I want it to be light, but not at all costs.
What I want is an 10.5 inch A1 upper, with all the modern improvements. This is going to be mated to an M16 lower.
If you guys were going to have one of these put together, what components would you use?
lethal dose
11-20-10, 08:51
10.5 a1, a2 fh, gunfighter mod 4, bcm fa bcg (maybe a fail zero, not sure), miad grip, dd qd reciever end plate, standard m4 stock (or maybe Vltor... for storage), gi mags with magpul followers, floor plates, and stainless guts, troy trx extreme battlerail with ar perf qd socket, dd fixed front buis after fsb shave, trijicon rx06 reflex on gooseneck carry handle mount. I may go with standard double heat shield handguards on a shtf rifle... simply so I have easier access to the gas tube, etc.
Why an A1 upper, out of curiosity? A flattop with iron sights would accomplish the same and be lighter, wouldn't it? I was thinking a 10.5" lightweight Centurion Arms barrel and DD or even Troy/VTAC handguard might be the ticket here. Use BCM guts (ionbonded?), shave the FSB, and pick your favorite iron sights. Add an AAC Blackout or BC 1.0 and rock on.
-B
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-20-10, 09:40
This is going to be a sort of "set and forget" rifle. I don't want to be tinkering with loctite, batteries, etc. And I don't need all the extra doo-dads of the A2 set up.
Then I'd submit what I posted above, only with an A1 upper, chopped carry handle, and fixed FSB. :p
Does anyone make A1 uppers with M4 feed ramps?
-B
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-20-10, 09:46
That is what I am wondering. My idea may be too crazy.
Someone like ADCO or MSTN or Denny could probably machine them...
-B
LonghunterCO
11-20-10, 10:09
That is what I am wondering. My idea may be too crazy.
Nodak makes A1's but no M4 cuts. They do though sell there upper "in-the-white". Make your cuts, send to Victor for re-anodizing.
My light weight upper/get home gun is along those lines. A1 (no bump, no FA) with BCM bolt/carrier group, chorme lined light weight barrel (16" barrel though), fixed FSB, vortex FH. For weight reduction I just went with a carbon fiber FF handguard by Hyperform.
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-20-10, 14:58
I hate to even ask. But are the Nodak uppers a quality item? I know they seem to be produced for novelty reasons (repro rifles). So I have always been curious. Nothing to back up my concern. Just being cynical.
SpankMonkey
11-20-10, 15:41
Colt made a A2 with M4 ramps. Not sure if they are still making them.
If your going CH route get a 1.5 power Acog. Its hard to go wrong there. No batteries or other electronic crap to break or go down.
Magic_Salad0892
11-20-10, 16:57
I've been thinking of the same thing. (Car gun) Here's what I came up with.
Upper: A1 with Chopped Carry Handle. (A2 if not available.)
Forearm: A2. (A1 triangle guards if possible.)
BCG: FailZero with LMT Bolt
Barrel: Centurion 10.5''
CH: FailZero
Lower: LMT
Pistol Grip: A2 with shaved finger groove (Maybe the LBC Pistol Grip)
Stock: Colt Commando Stock (M4 stock if not available.)
Muzzle Device: KAC Flash Hider (If I need to use suppressor)
Rear Sling Swivel: CQD
Forward Sling Swivel: Haven't decided. KAC probably.
Sling: CQD 2-point.
Magazines: USGI 30 round magazines loaded with Federal Mk. 318 Mod. 0 Clone
Hope it helps.
suppressed or not?
-A2 upper with M4 ramps
-i'd go 11.5, for added reliability, myself.. i'd go LMT for 10.5 or BCM for 11, with FSB
-Battlecomp 1.0
-YM Chrome NM carrier with LMT bolt- smoother action, extra weight for SBR timing, easier cleaning and self-cleaning, and the benefit of LMT's excellent bolt
-DD M4 7.0 or 9.5 FSP
-m951, for durability
for lower config, just to throw it in-
-SOPMOD- it's gotta be the single strongest/failproof stock on the market
-H2
-Battlegrip or A2 with the nub ground down, wrapped in bat tape
very stout, basically unbreakable setup, no batteries.
Magic_Salad0892
11-20-10, 17:07
suppressed or not?
-A2 upper with M4 ramps
-i'd go 11.5, for added reliability, myself.. i'd go LMT for 10.5 or BCM for 11, with FSB
-Battlecomp 1.0
-YM Chrome NM carrier with LMT bolt- smoother action, extra weight for SBR timing, easier cleaning and self-cleaning, and the benefit of LMT's excellent bolt
-DD M4 7.0 or 9.5 FSP
-m951, for durability
for lower config, just to throw it in-
-SOPMOD- it's gotta be the single strongest/failproof stock on the market
-H2
-Battlegrip or A2 with the nub ground down, wrapped in bat tape
very stout, basically unbreakable setup, no batteries.
bkb000 has a pretty great idea.
I was playing on a boarderline KISS setup, with no rails or fancy stock.
If not the Colt Commando stock then the LMT SOPMOD.
i guess the light has batteries... but a gun has to have a light. dont think there's any getting around that.
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-20-10, 17:24
I am not totally against the light. I would probably just screw a chunk of rail on a plastic HG and put a G2L or something I can just toss when it goes dead.
Magic_Salad0892
11-20-10, 17:46
I know it's outdated but...
http://www.surefire.com/M500A-Millennium-Carbine-Forend
Personally I opted against the light for my build because if my car gets stolen I don't want to lose any more than I have to.
LonghunterCO
11-20-10, 17:57
I hate to even ask. But are the Nodak uppers a quality item? I know they seem to be produced for novelty reasons (repro rifles). So I have always been curious. Nothing to back up my concern. Just being cynical.
I think that they are top notch.
I think that they are top notch.
i concur... there are some local old nam-vet types that are into the retro guns.. i've seen some nodak-receivered retro builds that just about gave me wood. if i ever get to my purely indulgent retro build, i will be using nodaks.
Random thoughts...
I certainly understand the desire for the A1 and the simplest setup, but I'd be inclined to go with a flattop and rear sight on the off chance that you were able to find or use an optic.
Along the same lines, I'd use an MI FSB light mount so that you can move your pistol light to the carbine if needed, or again mount a found light if you needed to. I tried the SF light clamp thinking it would let me attach any handheld and found it lacking.
[flamesuit on]
New profile (lighter) HK416 10.5" upper with:
Troy Micro Sights or HK fixed sights (drum rear)
BCM Charging handle
Battlecomp 1.0
Some VFG/AGF/handstop to taste
Does some Executive series Surefire in light mount counts as electronics? Probably it does...
[flamesuit off]
... you introduced me here Greg.... :sarcastic:
Random thoughts...
I certainly understand the desire for the A1 and the simplest setup, but I'd be inclined to go with a flattop and rear sight on the off chance that you were able to find or use an optic.
Along the same lines, I'd use an MI FSB light mount so that you can move your pistol light to the carbine if needed, or again mount a found light if you needed to. I tried the SF light clamp thinking it would let me attach any handheld and found it lacking.
have you run many lights off FSBs on shoot-hot guns?
I have been thinking about the same type of gun. A Colt Commando with an A1/A2 carrying handle would be great. I would go with a Vortex or AAC flash hider. MOE or CTR stock. M4 Side sling mount, Noveske QD plate in the rear and BFG padded sling. I would like a tritium front sight and MOE handguards and a small MOE rail for the option of mounting a light. I wish BCM would sell complete A1 or A2 uppers. A Nodak A1 upper w/o forward assist would be my second choice. There is a build in the retro section right now that fits the bill well.
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-20-10, 19:35
Montrala,
That would definitely be my choice for door-kicking duty! Except the VFG. BOO!
LonghunterCO
11-20-10, 20:09
have you run many lights off FSBs on shoot-hot guns?
I ran my 16" mid-length carbine through MD carbine 1&2 course in September this year with the MI style mount and light (somewhere between 1700-1800 rounds in three days). No problems.
I ran my 16" mid-length carbine through MD carbine 1&2 course in September this year with the MI style mount and light (somewhere between 1700-1800 rounds in three days). No problems.
what light?
funny.. im currently on the same path. I would like to go with:
*BCM 11.5 w/ DD RISII Mk18
- Here is my tradeoff, I too would prefer a FSB, but completely hypothetically speaking, I think its better to have a solid mounted rail than plastic-anything. Who knows, I mean in a chaotic post apocalyptic environment there seem to be randomly burning ground fires everywhere. I would hate for my plastic handguards to get so badly damaged that it would render them useless...I digress. ;)
*DD Fixed BUIS - I will weld those things on.
*BCM Gunfighter Mod 4
*BCM BCG
*Vortex / Rainier XD
*A5 stock setup with IMOD
*Personally I will be adding the Gear Sector handstop...I freaking love that thing. I got so used to the lip on the end of the Magpul handguard (which my index finger rode on), I placed my GS hadstop close to the end and place it between my index finger and middle finger. It works great for me.
Anyway, happy building and happy holidays.
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-20-10, 21:05
Hmm. Welding the DD sights on would solve my concerns. Who could do that without screwing it up?
I ran my 16" mid-length carbine through MD carbine 1&2 course in September this year with the MI style mount and light (somewhere between 1700-1800 rounds in three days). No problems.
Did your light get too hot to use? Did you use the light during the class?
have you run many lights off FSBs on shoot-hot guns?
Not sure what you mean by "shoot-hot", but my #1 gun has an MI FSB mount and a Surefire X200 or X300 lives on the gun. I've not had any issues with either failing.
I think the concern was the light would get too hot.
Hmm. Welding the DD sights on would solve my concerns. Who could do that without screwing it up?
Welding a sight to a flat top IS screwing it up.
I meant that in not a literal sense, but just assuring they were not-easily removable. Just to clarify...
LonghunterCO
11-21-10, 10:59
what light?
I am running a home-brew light. I have one of G&R's two cell light bodies (Surefire "E" diameter) with a Surefire clicky tailcap, and Surefire Z44 bezel. The lamp is a Malkoff devices M60W. That is mounted to the MI style mount with an older Vltor (E-series) scout mount ring.
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-21-10, 11:38
Agreed. The upper and the sights are permanent if they are welded on. But what I find attractive about the A1 is the durability. I don't think screws and loctite are long term solutions for hard use.
LonghunterCO
11-21-10, 11:58
Did your light get too hot to use? Did you use the light during the class?
Due to the rectrictions on the range that our class held we were not "allowed" to do the night firing part of the typical MD class. I had checked the lights operation at midday lunch break and at the end of each class and it was always working. If heat from the weapon running is your concern, the MI type mounts are a large heat sink of material I did not notice the light being hotter than any other thing on the range (we were in full sun, 90's and at this altitude that sun was strong...everything was hot). When runnning, the LED lamps generate alot of heat, the better ones (like the Malkoff) have serious metal housings to deal with heat. Did not seem to be a problem.
Tactical Joke
11-21-10, 12:25
I'd be more inclined to go with a flattop and an RX34 or RX30 from Trijicon if I wanted an electronicless rifle. While it may not be the perfect optic, I'd take it over irons in a shootin' match. If you do experience the occasional washout, you can immediately fall back to your irons.
Not sure what you mean by "shoot-hot", but my #1 gun has an MI FSB mount and a Surefire X200 or X300 lives on the gun. I've not had any issues with either failing.
"shoot-hot" meaning the gun gets shot hot. lithium batteries are pretty heat sensitive, and excessive heat sucks life out of 'em. you've probably seen the charger bays with fans on them at work... and even with the fans, the chargers wont even start charging till the battery temp goes down.
o-rings and other plastic parts aside.
i don't know how much heat leaches into the light.. i would imagine ring-mounted lights, especially offset mounts, would transfer less.. but an x300 mounted flat and straight to the rail probably transfers a lot more.
Due to the rectrictions on the range that our class held we were not "allowed" to do the night firing part of the typical MD class. I had checked the lights operation at midday lunch break and at the end of each class and it was always working. If heat from the weapon running is your concern, the MI type mounts are a large heat sink of material I did not notice the light being hotter than any other thing on the range (we were in full sun, 90's and at this altitude that sun was strong...everything was hot). When runnning, the LED lamps generate alot of heat, the better ones (like the Malkoff) have serious metal housings to deal with heat. Did not seem to be a problem.
Thanks for the info. Good to hear.
NoDak Spud makes great receivers, I'm very pleased with mine. Then again, I'm a retro junkie.
I like the idea of a 603 upper with M4 feed ramps for a basic survival carbine. As was stated before, you could buy the receiver in the white, have the ramps machined and then send the upper to Victor at US Anodizing to be finished. It would be awesome.
NoDak Spud makes great receivers, I'm very pleased with mine. Then again, I'm a retro junkie.
I like the idea of a 603 upper with M4 feed ramps for a basic survival carbine. As was stated before, you could buy the receiver in the white, have the ramps machined and then send the upper to Victor at US Anodizing to be finished. It would be awesome.
Joe
Where could I find one in the white?
Could we drum up enough intrest here to get this done? I am in for one.
LonghunterCO
11-21-10, 22:22
Joe
Where could I find one in the white?
http://nodakspud.com/AR%20Lowers.htm
After the upper receiver you will see "feel free to contact us about receivers in the white".
Joe
Where could I find one in the white?
All you have to do is call up Harlan at NoDak Spud and order the upper in the white. :)
Magic_Salad0892
11-22-10, 00:48
Keeping tabs on this thread. Can't wait to see how it turns out.
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