View Full Version : Ransom Rest
I have wanted one of these things for years. Well, the dream finally came true! :D
Showed up last week. Picked up grips for the M&P, HKP7 and J Frame Revolver. We will also pick up grips for the Glock and 1911 in the near future.
My goal is to test all the cheap training ammo out there to see which is the most accurate. Then, we will buy all the top defensive ammo (HST, RANGER, GOLD DOT, ETC) and shoot it for accuracy as well.
More to follow....
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Ransom_Rest.jpg
Very cool. I'd love to have one too, but every time I think about $500, I think of all the other things that I could do with that money.
Very nice...I look forward to some range pics :cool: How heavy is that rest?
Very nice...I look forward to some range pics :cool: How heavy is that rest?
Very heavy. Then we bolt it down to a 16" X 30" board.
C4
Now that's some info I can wait for!
Thank You sir for your efforts.
willowofwisp
11-20-10, 22:50
That is awesome, I can't wait to see some data also
Thanks for doing this Grant. Looking forward to seeing the results.
I look forward to your reports on the ammo accuracy in the near future.
The trouble is that Ransom Rest keep the frame aligned, not the sights/slide.
Looser slide to frame fit guns will demonstrate worse groups than they are actually capable of if the user aligns the sights each time.
The trouble is that Ransom Rest keep the frame aligned, not the sights/slide.
Looser slide to frame fit guns will demonstrate worse groups than they are actually capable of if the user aligns the sights each time.
That's very true, however, user-induced deviation will generally be much greater than deviation induced by mechanical inconsistency in the pistol. Taking the user's tremble, etc, out of the equation will give a very good indication of the platform's potential, even if not a perfect one. Moreover, I think Grant's really looking to prove which brands of range fodder and defensive ammo works best in various pistols/revolvers, rather than proving which pistols/revolvers have the best mechanical accuracy potential. This is going to help us all get the most benefit out of our range time, by eliminating, as much as possible, the ammunition induced deviation.
Barry in IN
11-21-10, 13:54
I have one. but haven't used it in a while. There really is an art to using them.
Ransom used to include a reprint of an article by Dean Grennell about using the Ransom Rest, and it's pretty helpful. If you didn't get it, let me know and I'll see if I have one around.
Besides that article, he often wrote about using them, both in "Guns" magazine and in various Gun Digest books in the 80s. Sometimes a little tip and sometimes more detailed, and if you can get your hands on some of them, they can help. I think the old Gun Digest Book of the 9MM had some info and you can find them for about five bucks.
Yes, some guns test better in them than others.
Anyway, I would suggest taking one gun and one lot of ammo and messing around with it a while. Try different means of clamping it down. Maybe try screwing it down to the bench. Try different tension on the star nuts holding the grip inserts in place (I found they need to be tightened evenly and have to settle in for a few shots). On some guns, you can connect the trigger bar various ways- try them, it may make a difference.
One important thing:
Be careful with light triggers if you have any. Since the gun is held so rigid, you might get a double with a trigger that was otherwise safe.
I tested a guy's bullseye 1911 for him, not knowing what the trigger was like. Sure enough, it doubled, even though it had never done it when fired from his one-hand bullseye hold.
Serpico1985
11-21-10, 14:59
A 1911 firing more than one round for one trigger pull is a problem with the fire control parts. Something isn't right if the gun does that and it's not safe.
Grant, look forward to see some results and appreciate you doing this!
The trouble is that Ransom Rest keep the frame aligned, not the sights/slide.
Looser slide to frame fit guns will demonstrate worse groups than they are actually capable of if the user aligns the sights each time.
There really isn't enough movement in the slide to frame fit to greatly effect accuracy.
C4
I have one. but haven't used it in a while. There really is an art to using them.
Ransom used to include a reprint of an article by Dean Grennell about using the Ransom Rest, and it's pretty good
I did not. Please send me a copy if you have it.
C4
Barry in IN
11-21-10, 17:20
A 1911 firing more than one round for one trigger pull is a problem with the fire control parts. Something isn't right if the gun does that and it's not safe.
It got more than one pull. That's what the difference is in using the rest. Apparently the trigger actuating arm bouncing around under recoil hit the trigger again, gave it another "pull".
It would be nothing but harmless incidental contact with a "carry" trigger, but with the bullseye trigger on that gun. it led to the double.
I had used guns with pulls as light or lighter in the Ransom, but they were .22s (S&W 41 and Hi-Std) and probably didn't generate the recoil to bounce the trigger bar enough to give it a double hit.
Barry in IN
11-21-10, 17:36
I did not. Please send me a copy if you have it.
C4
I will dig around for it. I know I still have it because I run across it every few months...I'm just not sure where I run across it.:rolleyes:
It might be a while, or it might be this week.
The three main areas of concern I remember were:
-Mount it to a thick (~1") piece of plywood and clamp that to the bench. Mounting it to a steel plate (like I tried at first) might make it "twang" funny and give inconsistent results. (I found a steel plate was fine with light recoiling guns, but I couldn't keep the clamps tight with bigger ones.)
-Use the finger tab to push it back down into battery. Don't push down on other parts of the rest or the gun itself. Push down with the same force and speed.
-Like I said above, it's pretty important to tighten the nuts on the grip insert plates evenly, then to fire a few rounds, snug them up, fire a few more, snug them up again, and repeat as needed until the gun is settled in. Some guns don't shift at all and some never seem to quit squirming, depending on the grip shape.
I will dig around for it. I know I still have it because I run across it every few months...I'm just not sure where I run across it.:rolleyes:
It might be a while, or it might be this week.
The three main areas of concern I remember were:
-Mount it to a thick (~1") piece of plywood and clamp that to the bench. Mounting it to a steel plate (like I tried at first) might make it "twang" funny and give inconsistent results. (I found a steel plate was fine with light recoiling guns, but I couldn't keep the clamps tight with bigger ones.)
-Use the finger tab to push it back down into battery. Don't push down on other parts of the rest or the gun itself. Push down with the same force and speed.
-Like I said above, it's pretty important to tighten the nuts on the grip insert plates evenly, then to fire a few rounds, snug them up, fire a few more, snug them up again, and repeat as needed until the gun is settled in. Some guns don't shift at all and some never seem to quit squirming, depending on the grip shape.
The first two I am all over. The last one I will have to try.
I was able to get some good groups out of my M&P today, but have some questions about the amount of tension on the recoil spring. Factory setting is 1.5" and the manual says to adjust this for polymer pistols, but really doesn't say how much.
C4
G34Shooter
11-21-10, 22:37
What kind of good results?
What kind of good results?
I saw groups around 2". This was only with shooting 5rd though and need to shoot it in 10rd groups.
C4
Slide to frame fit is all a part of what defines accuracy in a Pistol...I guess I am not understanding the concern spoken of in that statement..?
Slide to frame fit is all a part of what defines accuracy in a Pistol...I guess I am not understanding the concern spoken of in that statement..?
Slide to frame fit does not play a big role in determining accuracy.
http://www.burnscustom.com/frametoslidefit.html
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=244722
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=3856
In my experience pistols with a sloppy slide to frame fits will not shoot to their full potential in a Ransom Rest (machine rest) and can be fire better by hand. One reason is because the frame is clamped in the rest and the slide is floating on top of the frame. The machine rest can only relocate the frame in the same position each time it’s fired, not the slide. The pistol is going to shoot whichever way the slide is pointing when the bullet exits the muzzle.
Theoretically the barrel should shoot whichever way the slide is pointing as long as the barrel is seated snugly in the slide. This is why many smiths (me included) will tell you that a good barrel fit is the most important. When the sights are mounted on top of the slide and the pistol is fired by hand you will always re-align the sights to the bullseye every time you fire, no matter what way the slide is sitting on the frame. So by firing the pistol by hand you’re removing the slide & frame tolerance out of the equation to a certain degree. Some of your most accurate bullseye pistols are built with tight slide & frame fits with slide-mounted scopes.
I had one guy insisted I try his sloppy slide & frame fitted pistol in my Ransom Rest. It wouldn’t group on a 12 x12 sheet of paper @ 50 yards. When I fired his pistol by hand I could hold all the shots in about 4 inch @ 50 yards. I proved this so many times I won’t waste my time machine resting a pistol with a sloppy slide to frame fit. I think one of the reasons a pistols can be fired more accurately by hand than out of a machine rest is the pistol cycles more consistently in your hand than out of a ridged fixture.
The frame does virtually nothing to the barrel, other than push it up to interface with the slide (off a locking block, or slide stop). The projectile travels out of the barrel the same way every time (more or less), so as long as the sights are in the exact same location in relation to the bore...it'll shoot (for the shooter) in the same place every time.
What do you think the frame is really doing that plays a big role in mechanical accuracy?
Slide to frame fit is all a part of what defines accuracy in a Pistol...I guess I am not understanding the concern spoken of in that statement..?
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I don't know about Grant but I would just want to know how accurate the particular pistol I'm testing is, with it's loose slide and all.
The Ransom just takes as much of the human element out of the equation as possible, short of the trigger pull and aligning the sights. I've even seen hydraulic attachments to lessen the effects of the trigger pull.
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I do know about Grant but I would just want to know how accurate the particular pistol I'm testing is, with it's loose slide and all.
.
Thats what my point is. The Ransom Rest is designed for testing a Firearms accuracy Slide to frame fit, Bbl and all.
Now on the other hand if you want to test the accuracy of just the ammo...then there are other set ups for this.
Thats what my point is. The Ransom Rest is designed for testing a Firearms accuracy Slide to frame fit, Bbl and all.
Now on the other hand if you want to test the accuracy of just the ammo...then there are other set ups for this.
A Ransom Rest maintains frame alignment, not sight alignment.
How do you aim your shots?
A Ransom Rest maintains frame alignment, not sight alignment. Agreed
How do you aim your shots? Sight Alignment
That being stated We will just have to agree to disagee as this is only moving us further from the original topic.
I do not wish to further hi-jack C4IGrant's thread.
Barry in IN
11-24-10, 12:48
I did not. Please send me a copy if you have it.
C4
I looked in what I thought was the best place to start, and it wasn't there.
I have the feeling I will either find it in the next couple of places I look, or I won't see it until it just "shows up" someday. It will be post Thanksgiving before I can look again but that will give me a little time to think of a likely place anyway.
G34Shooter
12-12-10, 17:49
Any updates?
Any updates?
It is 15 and snow here. Don't expect any updates till about April. :D
C4
G34Shooter
12-12-10, 18:13
Uh yeah, I guess Mother Nature wins :eek:
blacklabel66
12-12-10, 20:35
I'm interested in this sweet red dot setup. Is the slide milled for the sight, or is it mounted in the rear sight slot?
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Ransom_Rest.jpg[/QUOTE]
I'm interested in this sweet red dot setup. Is the slide milled for the sight, or is it mounted in the rear sight slot?
Milled slide.
C4
Bolt_Overide
12-14-10, 04:19
nice, tag for future updates.
After that, buy one of those Match Grade Barrel Locks for the Glock and test that. ;)
Barry in IN
04-04-11, 07:49
I looked in what I thought was the best place to start, and it wasn't there.
I have the feeling I will either find it in the next couple of places I look, or I won't see it until it just "shows up" someday. It will be post Thanksgiving before I can look again but that will give me a little time to think of a likely place anyway.
I ran across it this weekend.
It isn't quite as detailed as I remembered, and it was not written by Dean Grennell but Wiley Clapp (a shame) but I will scan it and get to you by pm or something when I can get a few minutes to do so.
I'll scan the instructions it was attached to also, just in case they are different.
I saw groups around 2". This was only with shooting 5rd though and need to shoot it in 10rd groups.
C4
At what range was this group shot? Ever get to the 10 rd groups?
An Undocumented Worker
08-18-11, 18:04
Hey Grant can we get an update on your progress/findings with using your ransom rest?
mkmckinley
08-19-11, 04:19
I think Grant's a pretty busy guy but I'd love to see how this turned out as well. Grant, if you're reading, what procedure did you come up with for the test? If I understand it correctly you adjusted the rest to align the sights between shots, yes?
I think Grant's a pretty busy guy but I'd love to see how this turned out as well. Grant, if you're reading, what procedure did you come up with for the test? If I understand it correctly you adjusted the rest to align the sights between shots, yes?
Sorry, am too busy for my own good (am searching the internet for a hacker so I can show him my new GEN 2 G19). ;)
I have done some testing, but nothing formal. More of just playing with it to figure out how to best utilize the thing. When dealing with polymer guns, you have to adjust between every shot. Luckily I spent the extra coin and got the adjustable base (thank GOD).
What is most interesting is that many pistols will perform in 5rd groups. Once you shoot 10rd groups, you start to notice issues in accuracy. If I was a statistics/math guy, I would be able to tell you that the randomness of a fast unlock sequence or poorly rifled barrel or improper twist rate ONLY shows itself in the longer strings.
This is why it is so important to shoot 10rd groups when testing a firearm.
C4
Seems a rail mounted laser would be a good way to get consistent poa.
Seems a rail mounted laser would be a good way to get consistent poa.
Not really.
C4
G-I know a guy that really digs numbers/ stats and could assist you with the number crunching if you are interested.
I was reading a paper on these things just the other day. I have no idea where it was though. I was visiting sites for reloading data.
The person that wrote the one I read said not to use the trigger bar but to operate the trigger with your finger.
I thought that sounded a bit odd but he was saying that produced the best results.
Any more progress on this?
Okie John
What is most interesting is that many pistols will perform in 5rd groups. Once you shoot 10rd groups, you start to notice issues in accuracy. If I was a statistics/math guy, I would be able to tell you that the randomness of a fast unlock sequence or poorly rifled barrel or improper twist rate ONLY shows itself in the longer strings.
This is why it is so important to shoot 10rd groups when testing a firearm.
C4
Absolutely on target. With this in mind, it would be illuminating to randomly pull off the shelf a group of 10 new Gen4 G19's, 10 new M&P9 FS, and 10 new H&K P30's. Shoot each pistol using a standard quality ammo like the NATO milspec stuff, and from each pistol, fire five (5) groups of 10 rds each, then calc the average of the 5 groups. Then calc the avg groups size across all 10 pistols of each model. If the shooting could be done on a Ransom device to reduce shooter variances, all the better.
Obviously this is not likely to happen. Probably the manufacturers wouldn't want to fund those head-to-head tests and have their product come up a little short of the others. Plus the test ignores other factors such as reliability. And besides, who would pay for all the pistols and ammo? Still, if you wanted to get a pretty realistic read on the accuracy potential of factory pistols, this would be a solid test. I would love to see the results if it COULD be done. :-)
30 cal slut
01-26-12, 20:59
doesn't sound like a ransom rest would be optimal for adjusting an iron sight or zeroing a red dot optic.
correct me if i'm wrong.
doesn't sound like a ransom rest would be optimal for adjusting an iron sight or zeroing a red dot optic.
correct me if i'm wrong.
NO. Once you have it zero'd and want check out what it is capable of, yes.
C4
Grant did you ever get around to straping an M&P into the ransom rest for 10rd or larger groups?
Grant did you ever get around to straping an M&P into the ransom rest for 10rd or larger groups?
Yes.
C4
And? ;)
Yeah. :-) Not to pile on, but I am DYING to hear these results.
And? ;)
It proved that I don't suck as bad as I thought I did. ;)
C4
An Undocumented Worker
01-27-12, 21:53
It proved that I don't suck as bad as I thought I did. ;)
C4
While such discoveries can be reassuring to some people, it could end up being devestating to their wallets. ;)
So was this with the 9mm M&P with the accuracy issues? I'd like you to throw a M&P midsize .45 in there and see what it's capable of. One of the most accurate guns I've fired, and that's with the P.O.S. trigger making my trigger breaks a pain in the hind quarter. :mad:
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