View Full Version : Young Boy strip searched by TSA
variablebinary
11-21-10, 05:06
Every TSA chump involved should have a thorough background check for any sexual offences against children, including having their hard drive swept for kiddy porn
Don't sit there and tell me some bullshit about a child being a threat to the aircraft.
Power hungry, perverts and pedophiles.
Young Boy strip searched by TSA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSQTz1bccL4
Any human being with self respect and character would refuse to implement these ridiculous TSA policies.
Law enforcement requires reasonable suspicion that a person is presently armed and dangerous before a pat down for weapons can be made, and a full out search requires consent, search incident to arrest, or other articulable situation(going after specific contraband suspected to be on a person) to be legal and not violate the 4th Amendment. Either way, from an LE point of view you just can't randomly grab someone and give them a full body search.
Is TSA trying to say that you wanting to fly on a commercial air liner is giving full legal consent to a full body search? Last I checked no one gave any verbal or written consent, and the circumstances to not justify a legal search.
I wonder if George Washington would have considered it "reasonable" under the 4th Amendment for British soldiers to either have to look over Martha in the nude or feel over her entire body before letting her on a sailing ship.
How about this one?
TSA Pat-Down Leaves Passenger Covered in Urine
http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/tsa-pat-down-leaves-passenger-thomas-sawyer-covered-in-urine/19727469
Any human being with self respect and character would refuse to implement these ridiculous TSA policies.
I know I came down pretty hard on you the other day over this stuff, but that video really, really pissed me off. You have absolutely got to be ****ing kidding me.
They won't profile but will do that to a child?? I'd disband the entire organization immediately and have qualified, private groups come in and follow the El Al model to the letter. This has got to end.
Whoever decided that child needs to be searched should be charged with a crime, the rest who took part all fired.
And then beaten. :mad:
What's wrong with suing individual screeners? Hell you can file suit for $0.01. It's not about a pay day but a simple solution and sends a stronger message than a complaint e-mail.
Gutshot John
11-21-10, 08:59
What's wrong with suing individual screeners? Hell you can file suit for $0.01. It's not about a pay day but a simple solution and sends a stronger message than a complaint e-mail.
The law doesn't allow for it. You can't sue someone for performing their duties.
The law/practice needs to be changed, when TSA is more afraid of offending those that are trying to kill us, than the citizen they are ostensibly trying to protect, something is very very wrong.
I don't know why but that video has completely gotten under my skin. Keeps replaying over and over as I walk around the house. Like some sort of revenge on me for defending those ill-conceived morons.
I hope that video goes viral and that man steps forward. Someone or several people need to be held accountable for that incident.
I fly every week and while I haven't been subjected to this kind of treatment yet I did watch a lady get "patted down" right out in the open in Phoenix two weeks ago. I wouldn't say she was patted down though...the female TSA pretty much felt her up right there in front of dozens of people. Specifically she spent a lot of time around her breast and in between her thighs. On top of that it took her about 5-7 minutes to accomplish this.
It's pretty sad that Americans are being treated like cattle.
However, I'm looking forward to this. First I'm going to ask for a female officer then (regardless of their sex) I'm going to make small grunts of approval, I'll speak loudly and ask why they want me to remove my pants and then ask them to buy me dinner afterwards or request a cigarette :D
I don't get embarrassed but I sure as hell will make them feel that way ;)
So where should we send donations for your bail money fund, M4arc? :sarcastic:
Wow, this is ****ing disgraceful. I can't believe that we have allowed our fear to dictate policy for so long that this has actually become something that only a minority of people are upset about.
Wow, this is ****ing disgraceful. I can't believe that we have allowed our fear to dictate policy for so long that this has actually become something that only a minority of people are upset about.
I think we're seeing a tremendous backlash to this and related events. There are even airports looking to remove TSA and replace them with private companies. I suspect that TSA will back off these procedures before too long.
The law doesn't allow for it. You can't sue someone for performing their duties.
The law/practice needs to be changed, when TSA is more afraid of offending those that are trying to kill us, than the citizen they are ostensibly trying to protect, something is very very wrong.
The intentional infliction of emotional distress, I'm pretty sure I can sue. Can you bring up something that shows me differently?
I think we're seeing a tremendous backlash to this and related events. There are even airports looking to remove TSA and replace them with private companies. I suspect that TSA will back off these procedures before too long.
Backlash that took almost ten years to start happening. The TSA has been over the top since they first started implementing security measures.
This is a perfect example of the concept "give an inch, take a mile". We willingly gave an inch, and now we're appalled that they took a mile.
Backlash that took almost ten years to start happening. The TSA has been over the top since they first started implementing security measures.
This is a perfect example of the concept "give an inch, take a mile". We willingly gave an inch, and now we're appalled that they took a mile.
I disagree. While there have been TSA blunders since 9-11 there hasn't been a widespread problem until recently. Yes, removing laptops and shoes have been an inconvenience but not humiliating and degrading.
While TSA has always sucked I don't feel they've overstepped their boundaries until recently. Like I said I fly every week and I haven't had an issue yet (except when they found a 5.56 round in my backpack)...but I know it's coming.
The intentional infliction of emotional distress, I'm pretty sure I can sue. Can you bring up something that shows me differently?
Intentional infliction of emotional distress is your cause of action.
But the defendant will be the sec of DHS, not the individual employee if he was acting within the scope of his employment.
jklaughrey
11-21-10, 11:17
While I agree it was over the top and probably unnecessary to remove the shirt of a 4/5 yr old. I would hardly classify that as a "proper" strip search. Any strip search shall be conducted in private and involves the removal of all clothing. I think this TSA agent is perhaps over zealous and rather than run his hands on the boys upper torso he opted for shirt removal. An error on his part. If he chose to go against common sense then he needs to be reprimanded on proper procedure and use better judgment and discretion in the future.
It appears that there are incidents occurring, although rare when considering the amount of air travel and passengers in the US daily. The TSA and its mission may need to be revised and perhaps an overhaul on procedure and practice to fall better in line with what the majority of citizens deem acceptable. An oversight committee perhaps, appointed my the airlines to have communication with DHS/TSA entities to help change and fix the problem at the source.
so what's taking a train from colorado to the east coast like? :confused:
I disagree. While there have been TSA blunders since 9-11 there hasn't been a widespread problem until recently. Yes, removing laptops and shoes have been an inconvenience but not humiliating and degrading.
While TSA has always sucked I don't feel they've overstepped their boundaries until recently. Like I said I fly every week and I haven't had an issue yet (except when they found a 5.56 round in my backpack)...but I know it's coming.
But they did show a pattern of taking more and more away with each heavy travel season. It was inevitable that it would come to something like this. Like I said give an inch, take a mile.
so what's taking a train from colorado to the east coast like? :confused:
Slow! And all of the moves to stop high speed train projects in the midwest wont help.
That is very disturbing... We made this Golem out of our fears and now it has turned on us...
B
We made this Golem out of our fears and now it has turned on us...
B
That is a great analogy, it is very much a Golem.
The thing that gets me the most about these rules, even the past rules, is if any of you have flown abroad to a Eastern European, or South American country, you also realize how in-effective the rules are, because well, they're not implemented equally throughout the world. Therefore your suffering long TSA lines, with these violations to your privacy, while people board flights to the United States every day after only walking through a metal detector.
The illusion of safety is all the TSA offers this country. And this "Golem" (thanks Buck) hasn't finished growing yet. How long until they dig their mitts into other forms of cross state travel?
I think we're seeing a tremendous backlash to this and related events. There are even airports looking to remove TSA and replace them with private companies. I suspect that TSA will back off these procedures before too long.
TSA keeps saying that even if airports replace TSA with private contractors, the PCs will still need to follow TSA rules, which include scanners and pat downs.
Belmont31R
11-21-10, 12:46
Slow! And all of the moves to stop high speed train projects in the midwest wont help.
TSA is at the trains and buses now, too.
variablebinary
11-21-10, 14:39
TSA...the gift that keeps on giving
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40291856/ns/travel-news
TSA pat-down leaves traveler covered in urine
'I was absolutely humiliated,' said bladder cancer survivor
A retired special education teacher on his way to a wedding in Orlando, Fla., said he was left humiliated, crying and covered with his own urine after an enhanced pat-down by TSA officers recently at Detroit Metropolitan Airport.
“I was absolutely humiliated, I couldn’t even speak,” said Thomas D. “Tom” Sawyer, 61, of Lansing, Mich.
Another clear threat to national security...
Belmont31R
11-21-10, 15:31
In what can only be described as TSA handlers gone wild, the San Diego Harbor Police arrested an area resident for refusal to complete the screening/security process yesterday. This is the same airport that created the TSA security catch phrase “don’t touch my junk.” John Tyner of San Diego started the airport screening firestorm last week as Americans head into the busiest travel week of the year in the United States.
This time the defendant, Sam Wolanyk says he was asked to pass through the 3-D x-ray machine. When Wolanyk refused, Transportation Security Administration (TSA) personnel told him he would have to be patted down before he could pass through and board his airplane.
Wolanyk said he knew what was coming and took off his pants and shirt, leaving him in Calvin Klein bike undergarments.
Wolanyk was arrested on two misdemeanors, “failing to complete the security process; violation code 7.01 and illegally recording the San Diego Airport Authority (they confiscated his iPhone); violation number 7.14 (a).”
Powell also stated that there was another arrest of a woman who was allegedly illegally filming the x-ray, and TSA screening process with a video camera. The young woman’s camera was confiscated and she was given a citation and released from Harbor Police custody.
http://www.examiner.com/county-political-buzz-in-san-diego/tsa-airport-screeners-gone-wild-san-diego-again
Sam Wolanyk
I know that name... Unless there are two of them in the world… I believe he is an “open carry” activist who recently won a lawsuit against the County of San Diego for false arrest…
http://www.responsiblecitizensofcalifornia.org/profile/SamWolanyk
theblackknight
11-21-10, 15:47
What would they do If I while getting one of these searches, kept taking off my clothes till none where left?
What if someone knowingly shit their pants while being searched?Pants shitting isnt really thought of as hostile, right?
variablebinary
11-21-10, 18:00
Lots of people call Ron Paul a kook, but his common sense ranks higher than most in washington
http://www.prisonplanet.com/ron-paul-debates-tsa-screenings-cnn.html
CNN
Nov 21, 2010
“John King, USA” , CNN
Congressman Ron Paul faces off against Fran Townsend, CNN National Security Analyst and former Homeland Security Advisor to the post-9/11 Bush Whitehouse. Paul argues against the current TSA airport security measures as being invasive and a broad government overreach. Townsend holds that it is a necessary policy for upholding safety in the face of terrorism.
GermanSynergy
11-21-10, 18:53
If they're getting away with this now, I shudder to think of what they'll do tomorrow. :mad:
I assure you guys that this won't go away and that it will only get worse.
Yes, it is possible that this problem will expand to bus and train tavel as well.
I have sympathy for those with medical conditions or must utilize air travel for emergency or work.
For everybody else....
Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
Really?? ?
Really?? ?
yes, really.
Until the day where the TSA style situation is brought to all forms of travel in our country, at this moment in time, there is nothing to complain about.
Once again, to those who must use flight as part of their life style, or have medical conditions that are affected by the TSA's invasive pat downs/ x-ray screening, I understand that they are being wronged.
As for the boy, I don't think he had a choice. His parents are responsible for him and I'm pretty sure they made the decision to allow such a thing to happen.
If I had a son and was presented with that situation, we would turn around and go home. No trip is worth my hypothetical son being treated like that.
So it will only be a problem when they subject you to someone when they want to WALK from California to Florida. By this argument Gun control is only a problem when applied to Muskets and cannons and Freedom of the press only applies to the Printing press and in person verbal communication.
Bolt_Overide
11-21-10, 22:00
Mother ****ers need to burn for that shit.
As far as I understand, in the USA, a government entity owns the airport and leases it to private airline companies.
I don't know who dictates the TSA's presence, that governing body who owns the airport, or the private company that the airport is leased to.
If the governing body dictates the TSA's presence, we got a problem. Theoretically, the TSA can be placed any where to sexually assault you, like at the end of your street as you go to work.
If the private company dictates the TSA's presence, then there's nothing to fear. They are only hurting their business by keeping the TSA or striaght up allowing them to conduct these new invasive procedures.
That is very disturbing... We made this Golem out of our fears and now it has turned on us...
B
Well, let it be said that I was never afraid and I spoke up constantly only to be belittled, ridiculed and worse. Those who WERE cowed and WILLFULLY GAVE UP PRECIOUS LIBERTY FOR FALSE PROMISES OF SECURITY AFTER 9/11... well, I have little empathy for them. Problem is we're all in this together. I suffer alongside the rest.
For the record it did not "turn on us" it was ALWAYS INTENDED TO BE AGAINST US.
Belmont31R
11-22-10, 01:09
As far as I understand, in the USA, a government entity owns the airport and leases it to private airline companies.
I don't know who dictates the TSA's presence, that governing body who owns the airport, or the private company that the airport is leased to.
If the governing body dictates the TSA's presence, we got a problem. Theoretically, the TSA can be placed any where to sexually assault you, like at the end of your street as you go to work.
If the private company dictates the TSA's presence, then there's nothing to fear. They are only hurting their business by keeping the TSA or striaght up allowing them to conduct these new invasive procedures.
An airport can opt out of having the TSA there but they have to use contractors from a list DHS sets, and they still have to follow TSA guidelines which now includes enhanced pat downs. The TSA is provided at no cost to the airport while the contractors would have to be paid by the airport.
And there is already extensive case law when it comes to searches of people in public like walking down the street. They can't do this outside of an airport.
RancidSumo
11-22-10, 01:30
I assure you guys that this won't go away and that it will only get worse.
Yes, it is possible that this problem will expand to bus and train tavel as well.
I have sympathy for those with medical conditions or must utilize air travel for emergency or work.
For everybody else....
Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
What the **** kind of statement is that? So it is perfectly alright with you that the government take away the property rights of airline owners and then carry out intrusive searches before you can fly just because you have the option to drive? Well you have the option to walk to so is it ok if they do this shit at every interstate entrance?
Don't complain about taxes and hoop jumping o be able to get a handgun in some states since you don't HAVE to have one. Don't complain about concealed carry laws if you can open carry or vice versa.
This "logic" if you can even call it that just blows my mind. How anyone can actually think that is beyond me.
So it will only be a problem when they subject you to someone when they want to WALK from California to Florida. By this argument Gun control is only a problem when applied to Muskets and cannons and Freedom of the press only applies to the Printing press and in person verbal communication.
Thank you.
John_Wayne777
11-22-10, 06:58
Wow, this is ****ing disgraceful. I can't believe that we have allowed our fear to dictate policy for so long that this has actually become something that only a minority of people are upset about.
Wait until after the holiday travel season.
I think once a lot more people have seen TSA screeners feeling up 5 year olds as if there is a quarter ton of PETN in their underoos then the backlash and complaints will start to get more severe.
This nonsense has to stop.
If I had a son and was presented with that situation, we would turn around and go home. No trip is worth my hypothetical son being treated like that.
I'm pretty sure that once you are in the security checkpoint line, there is no "turning around."
And to add, I can't believe people are still spending money on voluntary travel.
In six months or so, they're gonna wish they had that money, or at least something more useful they bought with it.
I'm pretty sure that once you are in the security checkpoint line, there is no "turning around."
Yup, that dickhead John Pistole says people cannot turn around. Instead they will be arrested and fined $11,000.
And to add, I can't believe people are still spending money on voluntary travel.
I agree here, no just due to economic conditions but also to protest the new TSA policies.
Personally I am considering wearing a rain pancho over this for my next airport visit, on order to avoid being fondled:
This:
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/campingsurvival_2129_434540421
over this:
*** Picture a dude in a see-through thong ***
Check her out: http://gawker.com/5695857/who-got-groped-by-the-tsa-this-weekend
I'd like to travel with this chick! :D
Article says more Americans will die as a result of new TSA search policy:
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/130243-analyst-new-tsa-procedures-will-kill-more-americans-on-the-highway
Man, I thought we had something better here than other countries, I really thought we were a different people, a people with virtue, a people who know better than to follow blind orders when they are wrong and go against our very lively hood, go against what made this country great fro so long.
I've been trying not to lose my hope that we can somehow fight back and gain our rights/freedoms again. That we can somehow be great agian.
This video has really ****ed me up. When the children of our country are sacrificed for "safety" nothing is sacred, nothing is holly. Everything is just a criminal intent waiting to be interpreted as such, everyone a criminal until proven otherwise.
Our reality has truly turned into the Orwellian nightmare we have been warned about for ages.
Our Government is beyond any semblance of what we intended it to be, it has grown into a monster; a monster we must fight to the death or submit to.
We are all pthetic for allowing this to happen, for allowing our country/countrymen to get this way.
Today is the first day I am truly ashamed of America, myself and my countrymen.
We actually let this happen!
dookie1481
11-22-10, 11:08
If I had a son and was presented with that situation, we would turn around and go home. No trip is worth my hypothetical son being treated like that.
And you would be fined 10K like Tyner is and potentially arrested.
Jay
I haven't flown in awhile, and the last time I did was before these 'enhanced pat downs' were in place, but from here on out I believe that wearing my kilt and going regimental will be the order of the day :D.
TSA bumper stickers:
http://reason.com/blog/2010/11/22/as-you-prepare-for-holiday-tra
Disgraceful. Speak up and dare say something and you'll find yourself being arrested by the local cops.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v641/500grains/DHSgroping.jpg
Belmont31R
11-22-10, 13:57
Whats so dumb about all this is they are blaming the "Christmas Day Bomber".....that what was, 10 1/2 months ago? So it took them almost a year to implement safety procedures that would somehow have detected the bomb? That dude didn't even go through a US airport, and his own dad told us he was up to something. Our intelligence network failed just like it did prior to 9/11. Here we are over 8 years later (at the time), and they get a man with some repute telling us his son is going to do something, and they let him get on a ****ing plane.
Instead of fixing those mistakes....they subject us to this.
Belmont31R
11-22-10, 14:02
Man, I thought we had something better here than other countries, I really thought we were a different people, a people with virtue, a people who know better than to follow blind orders when they are wrong and go against our very lively hood, go against what made this country great fro so long.
I've been trying not to lose my hope that we can somehow fight back and gain our rights/freedoms again. That we can somehow be great agian.
This video has really ****ed me up. When the children of our country are sacrificed for "safety" nothing is sacred, nothing is holly. Everything is just a criminal intent waiting to be interpreted as such, everyone a criminal until proven otherwise.
Our reality has truly turned into the Orwellian nightmare we have been warned about for ages.
Our Government is beyond any semblance of what we intended it to be, it has grown into a monster; a monster we must fight to the death or submit to.
We are all pthetic for allowing this to happen, for allowing our country/countrymen to get this way.
Today is the first day I am truly ashamed of America, myself and my countrymen.
We actually let this happen!
TSA is a welfare program. Get people who had nothing prior to the TSA, give them a uniform and badge along with the might of the gov backing them up, and you expect them to 'do the right thing'?
Thats how Hitler got the brownshirts to do his bidding. Take someone with nothing, give them a uniform, some authority, put the rule of law behind them, and they'll do anything. Throw in a little "national security" and its like greasing the slides.
TSA is a welfare program. Get people who had nothing prior to the TSA, give them a uniform and badge along with the might of the gov backing them up, and you expect them to 'do the right thing'?
Thats how Hitler got the brownshirts to do his bidding. Take someone with nothing, give them a uniform, some authority, put the rule of law behind them, and they'll do anything. Throw in a little "national security" and its like greasing the slides.
For sure. I am not saying we are directly at fault for the TSA. I am just to the point where, quite frankly, I cannot stand this shit anymore. I reguse to eat this putrid crap they feed me and tell me to like anymore. There are tons of us who know about these atrocities, we've watched them for years, watched our soverignty being sold bit by bit, watched our forefathers legacy to us be eviscerated piece by piece.
Yet we continue to just "allow" it to happen. We didn't just wake up one day and all this shit happened, we slowly let them take ti all from us. Shame is all I can feel for those before me who did not act, shame is all I can feel for myself for not acting; just think if our forefathers did what we are doing and just pounded sand instead of acting...
The consitution is just a really nice piece of hemp now (All it is really, is proof that hemp is supperior to other fibers for making paper), our bill of rights, just a "check one off as the Govt. feels necessary" list.
Our property just rented from the govt, our money devalued and redistrubuted whenever they feel it should be (STOLEN) and our children indoctrinated to love it all or they are worng in the public school systems.
Now we are just cattle that cannot even roam freely around this nation that we fought to create, supposedly own and are intrusted to preserve (We have done a terrible job preserving this great experiment)?
And now 5 year old boys & girls, the epitome of nonthreatening; are made to undress in public view for fear of a bomb intheir pants, or that they somehow present a threat to anyone, anyhow, anyway?
I am at my whits end. This once great country is now just a fascist nightmare...
Check her out: http://gawker.com/5695857/who-got-groped-by-the-tsa-this-weekend
I'd like to travel with this chick! :D
Not till after she purchased a razor. :ph34r:
The_War_Wagon
11-22-10, 14:50
TSA now takes care of Obamacare, too. :rolleyes:
http://iowntheworld.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/1.gif
Yet another TSA outrage. This is not a groping one but soldiers coming back from Afghanistan
http://www.redstate.com/erick/2010/11/18/another-tsa-outrage/
SeriousStudent
11-22-10, 19:57
Yet another TSA outrage. This is not a groping one but soldiers coming back from Afghanistan
http://www.redstate.com/erick/2010/11/18/another-tsa-outrage/
Make sure you hum the theme from the Budweiser commercial while you read that one.
You know, "Real Men of Genius".
Sweet baby Jebus...... :(
"Christmas Day Bomber"..... That dude didn't even go through a US airport
Ding Ding Ding!!!!
Tell him what he's won!!!
That is my entire point Belmont, I am so glad to hear that others are actually aware of this as well.
We are being sold an illusion, and it is going to come back and bite us very hard in the ass. And when it does, since we all listen blindly to the talking heads on MSNBC and FOX News we're all going to insist on even more security measures that are going to encroach even more on other civil liberties.
yes, really.
Until the day where the TSA style situation is brought to all forms of travel in our country, at this moment in time, there is nothing to complain about.
Once again, to those who must use flight as part of their life style, or have medical conditions that are affected by the TSA's invasive pat downs/ x-ray screening, I understand that they are being wronged.
As for the boy, I don't think he had a choice. His parents are responsible for him and I'm pretty sure they made the decision to allow such a thing to happen.
If I had a son and was presented with that situation, we would turn around and go home. No trip is worth my hypothetical son being treated like that.
so we have to wait until the situation is completely oppressive and permeates every part of our society to do anything about it?
i'm not sure if that approach is more lazy or naive :confused:
of course you probably don't live 2200 miles from your entire family...
The 4th Amendment is supposed to protect us against "unreasonable" searches.
Do you think George Washington or Ben Franklin would have found nudie photos and genital squeezing to be "reasonable" preconditions for getting on a ship to sail across the Atlantic?
Get a load of this. NO way [for me] to verify the veracity of the story though:
http://www.redstate.com/erick/2010/11/18/another-tsa-outrage/
so we have to wait until the situation is completely oppressive and permeates every part of our society to do anything about it?
here's what belmont31R said...
And there is already extensive case law when it comes to searches of people in public like walking down the street. They can't do this outside of an airport.
ask him about your concerns...
Belmont31R
11-23-10, 01:29
here's what belmont31R said...
ask him about your concerns...
That doesn't mean they can't go around case law like "safety inspections" on the side of the road.
We are also one SCOTUS judge away from overturning over a hundred years of precedent. Look at how the commerce clause was reinterpreted in the 20's/30's to give the feds power within individual states.
Freedom means we have to be on our toes at all times. Do you think the feds would give a shit about case law if a dirty bomb went off, Beslan type attacks all over the country, ect. Look what they did during Katrina to lawful gun owners. When the rubber hits the road whats written down on paper goes out the window.
Bolt_Overide
11-23-10, 01:37
I dont think that George Washington or Ben Franklin would be happy with much of anything going on in our country currently.
Alaskapopo
11-23-10, 01:40
Every TSA chump involved should have a thorough background check for any sexual offences against children, including having their hard drive swept for kiddy porn
Don't sit there and tell me some bullshit about a child being a threat to the aircraft.
Power hungry, perverts and pedophiles.
Young Boy strip searched by TSA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSQTz1bccL4
I have had my share of bad TSA experiences. Not sure why they searched this kid like that. But I will say as a former narcotics investigator, people often hide contraband on their children. I found marijuana in a babies diaper once. I would not have bothered to check if I had not had a tip reporting the person. Not saying that is the case with TSA but it would be foolish to say children will never be searched.
Pat
variablebinary
11-23-10, 02:57
I wonder how many NAMBLA members work at the TSA part time.
Kiddy diddlers wet dream come true. Government sanctioned child molestation. How can you beat that?
http://www.drudgereport.com/tsa4.jpg
John_Wayne777
11-23-10, 06:57
I wonder how many NAMBLA members work at the TSA part time.
:rolleyes:
I'm going to guess not very many.
The TSA didn't implement these regs as a means of satisfying employees who are eager to molest children. They implemented these regs because the TSA is run by morons, which isn't surprising since institutional stupidity seems to be a perennial specialty of the federal government.
Every TSA chump involved should have a thorough background check for any sexual offences against children, including having their hard drive swept for kiddy porn
Don't sit there and tell me some bullshit about a child being a threat to the aircraft.
Power hungry, perverts and pedophiles.
Young Boy strip searched by TSA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSQTz1bccL4
I think the situation at the airports has gotten ridiculous, but. For what it's worth; I don’t know if the description was always there or was updated later but... The TSA selected the kid for a pat down, the kid was shy and un-compliant, dad tried to hold kids arms out and it didn’t work, in frustration DAD took the kids shirt off and handed it to TSA, TSA put it back on.
That is very disturbing... We made this Golem out of our fears and now it has turned on us...
B
Agreed.
Yet another TSA outrage. This is not a groping one but soldiers coming back from Afghanistan
http://www.redstate.com/erick/2010/11/18/another-tsa-outrage/
That was great. You cant fix stupid.
This is probably another good time to remind you all that all of us were carrying actual assault rifles, and some of us were also carrying pistols.
So we’re in line, going through one at a time. One of our Soldiers had his Gerber multi-tool. TSA confiscated it. Kind of ridiculous, but it gets better. A few minutes later, a guy empties his pockets and has a pair of nail clippers. Nail clippers. TSA informs the Soldier that they’re going to confiscate his nail clippers. The conversation went something like this:
TSA Guy: You can’t take those on the plane.
Soldier: What? I’ve had them since we left country.
TSA Guy: You’re not suppose to have them.
Soldier: Why?
TSA Guy: They can be used as a weapon.
Soldier: [touches butt stock of the rifle] But this actually is a weapon. And I’m allowed to take it on.
TSA Guy: Yeah but you can’t use it to take over the plane. You don’t have bullets.
Soldier: And I can take over the plane with nail clippers?
TSA Guy: [awkward silence]
Me: Dude, just give him your damn nail clippers so we can get the f**k out of here. I’ll buy you a new set.
Soldier: [hands nail clippers to TSA guy, makes it through security]
This might be a good time to remind everyone that approximately 233 people re-boarded that plane with assault rifles, pistols, and machine guns–but nothing that could have been used as a weapon.
I just can’t figure how an organization with a bazillion dollar budget can’t find a less objectionable, faster, more effective, and efficient way to screen passengers. Hiring from the bottom end of the workforce and quickly promoting them to supervisors and managers sure can’t help.
I would also think that the enhanced pat down would be far more objectionable than the x-ray. Especially for women. Hence I don’t quite get the opt out boycott.
From an implementation standpoint allowing people to opt out of the x-ray was probably the biggest mistake. Probably to late to reverse on that one. Most of the actual outrage has been over the pat downs.
The_War_Wagon
11-23-10, 07:53
The 4th Amendment is supposed to protect us against "unreasonable" searches.
Do you think George Washington or Ben Franklin would have found nudie photos and genital squeezing to be "reasonable" preconditions for getting on a ship to sail across the Atlantic?
Solution! :D
http://iowntheworld.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Muslim-Free.jpg
:rolleyes:
I'm going to guess not very many.
You might be surprised. http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2010/11/daedalus-shrugged-mounting-resistance.html
rickrock305
11-23-10, 16:48
but our good ole elected representatives are exempt!
As he left Washington on Friday, Mr. Boehner headed across the Potomac River to Reagan National Airport, which was bustling with afternoon travelers. But there was no waiting in line for Mr. Boehner, who was escorted around the metal detectors and body scanners, and taken directly to the gate.
Mr. Boehner, who was wearing a casual yellow sweater and tan slacks, carried his own bags and smiled pleasantly at passengers who were leaving the security checkpoint inside the airport terminal. It was unclear whether any passengers waiting in the security line, including Representative Allen Boyd, a Florida Democrat who lost his re-election bid, saw Mr. Boehner.
Gutshot John
11-23-10, 16:55
but our good ole elected representatives are exempt!
Sigh, he's the future Speaker of the House and in the line of succession.
Of course he could just fly via the military at 10 times the cost to the taxpayers like the last Speaker...what was her name again?
Bottom line it's as asinine to subject a sitting US lawmaker as it is a 4 year old boy.
Enjoy the view from a TSA supervisor's office:
http://dirtydozensbunker.com/picture.php?albumid=104&pictureid=1769
jklaughrey
11-23-10, 18:29
Granted some of the current actions taken by DHS/TSA is frustrating. But I am appalled by the blatant outright denigration of an entire agency by some members here. Unless you have bona fide proof that TSA is a haven for pedophiles and card carrying NAMBLA members. You need to mind your tone PERIOD. I know some TSA agents in my town and they are courteous and respectful. And both are former retired LEO's. So they are pedophiles as well? Even though they put in 30 years apiece? Some of you need to ditch the tinfoil and Spam, and grow up.
Granted some of the current actions taken by DHS/TSA is frustrating. But I am appalled by the blatant outright denigration of an entire agency by some members here. Unless you have bona fide proof that TSA is a haven for pedophiles and card carrying NAMBLA members. You need to mind your tone PERIOD. I know some TSA agents in my town and they are courteous and respectful. And both are former retired LEO's. So they are pedophiles as well? Even though they put in 30 years apiece? Some of you need to ditch the tinfoil and Spam, and grow up.
I didn't read where anyone claimed the TSA was a haven for pedophiles. Are some agents being found out and prosecuted? Yep and I'm glad they are. Mind your tone PERIOD? Authority complex or what? Gimme a break.
Just because you have 2 friends who are courteous and respectful to their buddy has no forebearance on how they treat paying customers at their post. I'm also not saying they're not professional and treat everyone great, but I'm also not blindly defending someone either. You don't know how they perform their job everyday and at all times. I've met plety of TSA agents who acted like complete assholes but that doesn't mean they always treat people that way.
To answer your question, I don't know if your TSA/ex-cop buddies are pedophiles or not but the police are not exempt when it comes to sexual depravity or pedophilia regardless of how long they've been an LEO. Some other people around here should grow up and look at the facts. These reports are only from the past 5 days.
Police Captain has pled guilty to 22 charges including statutory sodomy and sexual exploitation of minor for molesting children after scout meetings: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/11/19/ex-mo-police-officer-pleads-guilty-sex-charges/
Police Lieutenant is on paid leave after being arrested on an indecent liberties with a minor charge: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/11/20/1851694/huntersville-officer-arrested.html
Sheriff's Captain has been indicted on 1 computer tampering, 3 rape and 13 official misconduct charges revolving around allegations she had sex with inmates. http://www.fairport-erpost.com/latestnews/x151217467/Catherine-McLaughlin-Sheriffs-Captain-charged-with-rape-official-misconduct
Deputy pleads guilty to transporting prostitutes for fraternal organization to include a police Captain: http://www.buffalonews.com/city/police-courts/courts/article258929.ece
4 Officers have been disciplined, but the department refuses to say how, after an investigation into allegations of on-duty group sex sessions with strippers that was sparked by a lawsuit by one of the women involved and caused two other cops to resign: http://www.redlandsdailyfacts.com/sanbernardinocounty/ci_16653622
Deputy resigns after being accused of sexually assaulting 2 women: http://www.theledger.com/article/20101120/NEWS/101129988/1410?Title=Polk-Deputy-David-Williams-Resigns-Amid-Accusations-of-Sexual-Advances
Officer fired, accused of sexually assaulting 2 women during traffic stops: http://www.wcnc.com/news/marcus-jackson-lose-privacy-battle-in-court-109981814.html
Officer has been fired for offering to rip up a woman’s traffic ticket in exchange for sex behind stadium: http://blog.gulflive.com/mississippi-press-news/2010/11/suspended_moss_point_police_of.html
Granted some of the current actions taken by DHS/TSA is frustrating. But I am appalled by the blatant outright denigration of an entire agency by some members here.
You know where I for one stood until the absurd child searches emerged. But enough is enough, we are at a critical state of affairs and we need to get someone's attention in a peaceful but straightforward manner.
I still know they are not all perverts, but at this point I am almost comfortable lumping them in with muslims who are silent in the face of terrorism. Even in this recession, they need to strike at any cost because this is America.
They all border on taking part in a crime and are surely embarrassing us in front of the world.
Belmont31R
11-23-10, 19:40
Granted some of the current actions taken by DHS/TSA is frustrating. But I am appalled by the blatant outright denigration of an entire agency by some members here. Unless you have bona fide proof that TSA is a haven for pedophiles and card carrying NAMBLA members. You need to mind your tone PERIOD. I know some TSA agents in my town and they are courteous and respectful. And both are former retired LEO's. So they are pedophiles as well? Even though they put in 30 years apiece? Some of you need to ditch the tinfoil and Spam, and grow up.
I have about as much respect for the ATF as I do these blueshirts.
Belmont31R
11-23-10, 19:47
“I think the tighter we get on aviation, we have to also be thinking now about going on to mass transit or to trains or maritime. So, what do we need to be doing to strengthen our protections there?”
Can I say "I told you so" when you have no freedoms left?
GermanSynergy
11-23-10, 19:47
My friend (retired SF SGM) called me this evening from Atlanta airport. When asked about recent air travel and security, he told me it's a nightmare, and he has had to deal with surly and unprofessional TSA types.
Give them a little authority and they become Paul Blart on steroids...
I have about as much respect for the ATF as I do these blueshirts.
variablebinary
11-23-10, 19:59
Give them a little authority and they become Paul Blart on steroids...
Ironic, considering that is how they actually look. Including the females.
Good news! [insert sarcasm here]
Janet the Incompetent plans to bring us TSA abuse and perversion at trains, boats, metro.
Yeah!
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/130549-next-step-for-body-scanners-could-be-trains-boats-and-the-metro-
Last night I told my wife we are done flying. In the past we average one trip out of the country per year and 1-3 domestic trips per year. But I am not putting the kids at increased risk of cancer, nor am I going to condition them that it is ok for some rude-ass TSA moron to feel them up. We are done. The airlines can go in the shitter and Oboingo can nationalize them.
I guess we are not taking the kids on trains, boats or the metro either. I'll stick to canoe trips.
http://ts1.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=301306882840&id=5609f51e13865587f9c246bfc76bd4f5&url=http%3a%2f%2fsnooperreport.com%2fstorage%2fdhs%2fJanet.jpg%3f__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION%3d1273576015913
http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=303372184177&id=baf793c0d24339f7b7f1615dec8fedb8&url=http%3a%2f%2fjustinwashingtontheblogger.files.wordpress.com%2f2009%2f12%2fnapolitano-general-akbar.jpg
http://ts4.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=327167063519&id=490c1f01af353fd8b3e40561ea07a0d8&url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.rightpundits.com%2fwp-content%2fphotos%2fjanet_napolitano_65.jpg
http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=282802329413&id=89f2fe6682010d9fffdcc35ca6cc8c51&url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.ncc-1776.org%2ftle-pics%2fDeloresUmbridge-JanetNeaolitano.jpg
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSgilUasZQtg1FdlTK1aNKKhqgkrHh4OQBGFSMe9Vn1ggxKaaf6
GermanSynergy
11-23-10, 20:19
How long till we need internal passports for interstate travel, ala the USSR?
Good news! [insert sarcasm here]
Janet the Incompetent plans to bring us TSA abuse and perversion at trains, boats, metro.
Yeah!
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/130549-next-step-for-body-scanners-could-be-trains-boats-and-the-metro-
Last night I told my wife we are done flying. In the past we average one trip out of the country per year and 1-3 domestic trips per year. But I am not putting the kids at increased risk of cancer, nor am I going to condition them that it is ok for some rude-ass TSA moron to feel them up. We are done. The airlines can go in the shitter and Oboingo can nationalize them.
I guess we are not taking the kids on trains, boats or the metro. I'll stick to canoe trips.
jklaughrey
11-23-10, 20:35
First off no authority complex. I just refuse to group an entire agency into a little box that says they are pervs. I understand there are people that work in all type of jobs that have deviant sexual practices. But to lump the TSA into one group is wrong and juvenile. I thought being objective and using our frontal cortex to judge a person on their own actions, not on the actions of a few who wear the same uniform. The TSA guys I know are beyond reproach. I have seen them, I am a paying flying passenger. I know people who don't know I know these 2 guys and have nothing but good things to say. I understand the frustration and the disgust. I just can't bring myself to be a narrow minded, negative being and judge people I don't even know. If you judge them wrongly without factual proof concerning that single agent. It is unfair. How would you like to be judged on your uniform, or agency you work for? You wouldn't, so why do it to others?
Belmont31R
11-23-10, 20:38
First off no authority complex. I just refuse to group an entire agency into a little box that says they are pervs. I understand there are people that work in all type of jobs that have deviant sexual practices. But to lump the TSA into one group is wrong and juvenile. I thought being objective and using our frontal cortex to judge a person on their own actions, not on the actions of a few who wear the same uniform. The TSA guys I know are beyond reproach. I have seen them, I am a paying flying passenger. I know people who don't know I know these 2 guys and have nothing but good things to say. I understand the frustration and the disgust. I just can't bring myself to be a narrow minded, negative being and judge people I don't even know. If you judge them wrongly without factual proof concerning that single agent. It is unfair. How would you like to be judged on your uniform, or agency you work for? You wouldn't, so why do it to others?
Someone isn't beyond reproach if they are part of an organization that exists as a basis of violating peoples rights. Just like the the ATF.
It is unfair. How would you like to be judged on your uniform, or agency you work for?
If your boss told you to grope little boys' genitals all day, would you do it?
I would not.
But there are plenty of TSA agents doing it. Why? "Just following orders?" That excuse did not work out too well after WWII, not sure why it would work now.
The_War_Wagon
11-23-10, 21:02
Give them a little authority and they become Paul Blart on steroids...
Yep - chief offender #1! :mad:
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc305/The_War_Wagon/napolitano_mallcop.jpg
jklaughrey
11-23-10, 21:10
Belmont, I like you man, but that mentality literally puts you at odds with pretty much any government entity and LE agency sir.
500, If my job description demanded that in order to perform the necessary requirements set forth by the protocols and legal statutes to do that act. I would, else be in violation of the oath I swore to uphold. And honestly, the WW2 analogy doesn't fly. The tribunals went overboard with some Nazi's who were actually just doing their job as soldiers, not killers. I knew a former veteran who served in the German army during WW2. He wasn't charged with war crimes. Those that went above and beyond what is considered honorable amongst a soldiers code of ethical and moral obligations were and are guilty of acts which are dishonorable. The TSA isn't performing anything closely resembling a war crime, let alone anything above the office which they hold. If you don't like the current state of events, contact your elected leaders. Giving the agents a hassle is misguided for they get their orders from higher up.
Belmont31R
11-23-10, 21:27
Well here you go. I was expecting that.
Ex-TSA chief says its 4th violation but we gotta do it anyways. Last 20 seconds most important.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni4GVWvT2Zs
Belmont31R
11-23-10, 21:34
For the record I have ZERO issue with LE or any LEO as long as they are respectful of people's rights, the Constitution, and spirit of the USA including our founding.
We don't need any quasi LE agency which the TSA is...(not LEO)...running around violating rights because some unelected dipshit in DC tells them to. If that puts me "at odds" with them then fine by me.
jklaughrey
11-23-10, 21:38
Thanks Belmont, and if your at odds with everyone at some point. Call me up and I will find you a good defense attorney brother!;)
Belmont31R
11-23-10, 21:45
Thanks Belmont, and if your at odds with everyone at some point. Call me up and I will find you a good defense attorney brother!;)
To me a citizen should be at odds with their government to keep them check. We have "checks and balances" within the 3 branches but the ultimate check and balance is the people. If the 3 branches fail then its up to us to reign them back in. That doesn't mean violence or anything else. That can be done through voting, boycotts, and a variety of means which have nothing to do with violence.
Such as this:
ATLANTA — The nation's airport security chief pleaded with Thanksgiving travelers for understanding and urged them not to boycott full-body scans on Wednesday, lest their protest snarl what is already one of the busiest, most stressful flying days of the year.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/22/john-pistole-tsa-chief-pl_n_787277.html
Remember the government gets its authority because we give it to them. That means we can take it back.
If you have a different idea of how things should be that is fine but what Im advocating is more or less exactly what our founders had in mind. These boycotts, and protests against the TSA is us taking our consent back, and saying we do not give you permission to do that.
jklaughrey
11-23-10, 21:55
Boycott and protest, yes. Malign and demean those in performance of their duties...NO!
Yes, "We the People" give the governing authority their power. But we also need to remember that since we did so, those in power have to assume they are acting in our best interest. We put them in power, we are just as much at fault for the current state of affairs as they are. I just choose to rather than incite hatred and disgust, I do things in a professional manner by contacting my Congressman and people I have contact within agencies to help form a solution and alternative. Doing that you are exercising your power as an informed citizen, versus looking like the angry masses mob mentality.
Like all people when confronted with a problem choose their weapon.
Honey, or vinegar. Your choice. Just be prepared for whatever consequence you bring upon yourself.
Cheers! It is snowing and I need a coffee.
Belmont31R
11-23-10, 22:05
Boycott and protest, yes. Malign and demean those in performance of their duties...NO!
Yes, "We the People" give the governing authority their power. But we also need to remember that since we did so, those in power have to assume they are acting in our best interest. We put them in power, we are just as much at fault for the current state of affairs as they are. I just choose to rather than incite hatred and disgust, I do things in a professional manner by contacting my Congressman and people I have contact within agencies to help form a solution and alternative. Doing that you are exercising your power as an informed citizen, versus looking like the angry masses mob mentality.
Like all people when confronted with a problem choose their weapon.
Honey, or vinegar. Your choice. Just be prepared for whatever consequence you bring upon yourself.
Cheers! It is snowing and I need a coffee.
The difference is if I violated someones rights Id be thrown in jail as soon as possible. If the gov does it we have to "write" our representatives, and get a computer generated response back.
Boycotting is more effective, and gets results faster. Theres nothing wrong with a boycott. Our founders did it, and even dumped tea into Boston Harbor dressed up like indians. If people could do that in the formal years of the late 1700's I think we can create a boycott day.
Keeping someone in check doesn't mean you are against them.
Edit: Im not calling the entire TSA kiddy touchers. I am calling them rights violators, and if you think about it crime is violating the rights of others. Therefore they are criminals.
jklaughrey
11-23-10, 22:18
I didn't say to not boycott, just be prepared for the backlash. I prefer to keep my job and not piss off the people who sign my check. I suppose that makes me more passive, but to each our own. As far as the TSA, we aren't going to agree and I leave it at that. I don't feel they are in violation of our rights since they were implemented by the leaders we put in office. Calling them criminals, well than any agency or agent who suspends your rights is a criminal. So the LEO who arrests you is a criminal, the IRS agent who puts a lien on your home, the CPS worker who takes your child for being an unfit parent. Well, I suppose I am a criminal because I apparently violate the rights of people through arrest and detainment.
Either way, just because we don't agree. Doesn't mean we can't drink a beer together.:)
Belmont31R
11-23-10, 22:32
I didn't say to not boycott, just be prepared for the backlash. I prefer to keep my job and not piss off the people who sign my check. I suppose that makes me more passive, but to each our own. As far as the TSA, we aren't going to agree and I leave it at that. I don't feel they are in violation of our rights since they were implemented by the leaders we put in office. Calling them criminals, well than any agency or agent who suspends your rights is a criminal. So the LEO who arrests you is a criminal, the IRS agent who puts a lien on your home, the CPS worker who takes your child for being an unfit parent. Well, I suppose I am a criminal because I apparently violate the rights of people through arrest and detainment.
Either way, just because we don't agree. Doesn't mean we can't drink a beer together.:)
Electing someone doesn't give them authority to violate rights. If they want to do that then they need to go about it the legal way. Create an amendment that says airports are not subject to 4th amendment protections.
Im drinking beer right now. So toast....:cool:
jklaughrey
11-23-10, 22:38
How often do the elected few actually do as we want? Special interest groups have ruined old fashioned politics. My grandad actually called President Reagan, or had his call returned when Reagan was the Gov. of CA. Although considering grandad was a county commissioner for the largest county in CA, (San Bernardino Co) might have had something to do with it. Either way try doing that now, unless your "on the list", or grew up with them playing little league ball.
Toast, having a Porter.
Gutshot John
11-23-10, 22:48
How often do the elected few actually do as we want? Special interest groups have ruined old fashioned politics. My grandad actually called President Reagan, or had his call returned when Reagan was the Gov. of CA. Although considering grandad was a county commissioner for the largest county in CA, (San Bernardino Co) might have had something to do with it. Either way try doing that now, unless your "on the list", or grew up with them playing little league ball.
Toast, having a Porter.
That would depend on who you mean by "we". Can I just call Barry up and say "yo dude, this TSA policy is whack"? No obviously not, nor do I think that it's a particularly good idea.
It is however a response to the fear that the collective "we" wishes a response to. For the first time (and I've been a defender of much of the airport security until this month) people are stepping back and going "WTF?"
If the policy doesn't change soon, I think 2012 is going to make 2010 look like a church social.
jklaughrey
11-23-10, 22:56
With or without pitch forks and railroad rails?
Either way it is here, and we must live in the now. I guess you can choose your battle. Kicking and screaming, or working in a dignified manner through respected channels.
Gutshot John
11-23-10, 22:59
With or without pitch forks and railroad rails?
Either way it is here, and we must live in the now. I guess you can choose your battle. Kicking and screaming, or working in a dignified manner through respected channels.
Agreed, which is why I won't be flying anywhere if I can help it and I'll be working on my pilot's license in the meantime.
When enough people decide to go this route, airline CEOs will be making those phone calls on our behalf.
jklaughrey
11-23-10, 23:09
Well maybe not the most cost effective means of travel for long distances considering AV gas prices. But if you ever come to the PacNW, I'll pitch in some gas money for a trip to Las Vegas.:D
John Pistole, the head of the Transportation Security Administration, is warning angry airplane passengers that protesting at the groping of their genitals at TSA screening checkpoints will slow down lines and could irritate other fliers. It is all for your own good, he said. You must simply stop this foolish resistance and do as you are told.
http://www.politico.com/politico44/p...cd9d1cabd.html
John Pistole, the head of the Transportation Security Administration, is warning angry airplane passengers that protesting at the groping of their genitals at TSA screening checkpoints will slow down lines and could irritate other fliers. It is all for your own good, he said. You must simply stop this foolish resistance and do as you are told.
http://www.politico.com/politico44/p...cd9d1cabd.html
When my genitals are groped by my wife, then I won't complain, but when it's a complete stranger that's not a doctor, then I'll question it. These bureaucrats can go **** themselves if they think we're just gonna roll over and do as we're told on just their say so
rickrock305
11-24-10, 12:38
I'd be considering the pat down...
Letter to Holdren about health risks of machines...
http://www.scribd.com/doc/35498347/UCSF-letter-to-Holdren-concerning-health-risks-of-full-body-scanner-TSA-screenings-4-6-2010
adam savage from myth busters claims TSA missed his 2 large razor blades.
http://www.break.com/index/tsa-missed-two-large-razor-blades-1958629
Saw this one a few days ago. Yet one more reason I won't be flying anywhere anytime soon. Gotta love it when they force people with prosthetics to remove them in public.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40278427/ns/travel-news
Does it suck? Yep.
Does having a plane fly into a building suck? Yep.
While there is much that needs to be improved, this is the world we live in.
PJ
I'd be considering the pat down...
Letter to Holdren about health risks of machines...
http://www.scribd.com/doc/35498347/UCSF-letter-to-Holdren-concerning-health-risks-of-full-body-scanner-TSA-screenings-4-6-2010
Sure, competing experts. But here are some actual scientists who tested the actual devices in a scientific manner rather than speculating and pontificating.
Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory Report (http://www.tsa.gov/assets/pdf/jh_apl_v2.pdf)
Does it suck? Yep.
Does having a plane fly into a building suck? Yep.
While there is much that needs to be improved, this is the world we live in.
Will you do nothing to protect your own civil liberties??
This nudie/groping bullshit is not occurring at foreign airports, so the underwear bomber who started it all still would not have been caught.
I think Obongo is doing this to punish the voters for wholesale rejecting his leftist agenda in the last election. Clearly no terrorists will be stopped by having grandpa take off., in public, the prosthesis he wears due to wounds from the Vietnam War, and then squeezing Grandma's droopy boobies.
This may be the world you live in, but not me.
There was a news article saying Al-Queda is planning on putting bombs in toys this Christmas.....BAN THE TOYS! It's for the good of the children!
Will you do nothing to protect your own civil liberties??
This nudie/groping bullshit is not occurring at foreign airports, so the underwear bomber who started it all still would not have been caught.
I think Obongo is doing this to punish the voters for wholesale rejecting his leftist agenda in the last election. Clearly no terrorists will be stopped by having grandpa take off., in public, the prosthesis he wears due to wounds from the Vietnam War, and then squeezing Grandma's droopy boobies.
This may be the world you live in, but not me.
Protect my civil liberties? Yeah, I became an officer in the Marine Corps. You?
I had the opportunity to take some classes with a professor who was very smart with game theory and had some unique insights into detecting terrorists.
A few thoughts:
Terrorists believe it or not are really smart and adapt quickly
They have probabley realized by now that our profiling efforts are directed toward middle aged men of middle east decent flying on one way tickets
So how do they over come this? they make the attacker to be an old woman, or young boy, or teeenage girl anything that does not fit our mold of a terrorist is now a viable option for the terrorist to use. Am I saying that boy was a terrorist. HELLL NO. What I am saying is a terrorist has no specific color, gender, race. Ones that we need to worry about are ****ing chamelions in how they operate.
Am I saying that terror groups are broadening their horizons and looking for ways to beat our profiling. HELLL YES.
Also what would you say if your "droopey boobies" turned out to be HME? Or what will you say when another attack happens?
PJ
Belmont31R
11-24-10, 19:05
Also what would you say if your "droopey boobies" turned out to be HME? Or what will you say when another attack happens?
PJ
What happens when they stick it up their ass? Gloved finger in everyone's butt?
I would say its the price of freedom because no matter what we do terrorism is still a possibility. If we "react" to every incident with more loss of rights they can just keep pushing us until we have no rights, and then what? Since all of these safety steps are reactionary they, using logic, are only intended to stop the same thing from happening twice....not from happening the first time.
None of this would have prevented the Christmas day bomber or the shoe bomber.
Protect my civil liberties? Yeah, I became an officer in the Marine Corps. You?
I always like this argument - so if someone in military service thinks I should give up my civil liberties, I have no say in it? What if there is another officer who thinks giving up civil liberties is not a good idea? Just so that you know, your argument is without substance and does not advance the discussion.
So back to the issues.
I am waiting for the vagina bomber or the buttcrack bomber.
What if we have another attack but this time from a vagina?
What if we have an attack from cargo ?????????????????????
What if the really smart terrorists just start doing Mumbai-style attacks on elementary schools?
What if terrorists get jobs at restaurants and all on the same day put a biotoxin in the food?
What if terrorists put a dirty bomb on a container ship? What if they transfer it to a fishing boat along the way?
I guess we will need TSA agents at all of these people doing genuine cavity searches, right?
This airport stuff is just plain stupid, and I am surprised that so many otherwise intelligent people are eager to give up their Constitutionally guaranteed freedoms for nothing more than personal humiliation, and not the slightest improvement in security. All this is doing is destroying the airlines, destroying our liberties, and destroying our country.
rickrock305
11-24-10, 19:14
Protect my civil liberties? Yeah, I became an officer in the Marine Corps. You?
I had the opportunity to take some classes with a professor who was very smart with game theory and had some unique insights into detecting terrorists.
A few thoughts:
Terrorists believe it or not are really smart and adapt quickly
They have probabley realized by now that our profiling efforts are directed toward middle aged men of middle east decent flying on one way tickets
So how do they over come this? they make the attacker to be an old woman, or young boy, or teeenage girl anything that does not fit our mold of a terrorist is now a viable option for the terrorist to use. Am I saying that boy was a terrorist. HELLL NO. What I am saying is a terrorist has no specific color, gender, race. Ones that we need to worry about are ****ing chamelions in how they operate.
Am I saying that terror groups are broadening their horizons and looking for ways to beat our profiling. HELLL YES.
Also what would you say if your "droopey boobies" turned out to be HME? Or what will you say when another attack happens?
PJ
The problem is that we are and will always be one step behind the terrorists. This problem we are just now reacting to (the underwear bomber) is old news. Shoe bomber? Now we have to take off our shoes. They've already moved on other methods.
What we need to do is stop this ridiculous dog and pony show. All these machines and pat downs and whatever else is nothing more than bureaucratic bullshit so the people in charge can say they did something. And meanwhile, not one terrorist has ever been caught by these methods.
I think what we need to do is focus on methods that have worked. For example, the Israeli model of behavioral analysis and profiling. And also focusing on intelligence to head off these things before they even get to the point of execution.
When we give up our rights to combat terrorism, that shows me the terrorists are accomplishing their goals. As they have clearly stated, they don't even need an attack to be successful in order to accomplish their end goal. And idiocy like this proves that.
IrishDevil
11-24-10, 19:41
I got pulled from the full body scanner and got the pat down today. They said because I moved while in the scanner, I was going to be searched.
So as the TSA agent moves toward my crotch with a full on death grip, I let out a little moan. He stands up and asks me "how would you like a 10K fine for indecent behavior and resisting a search?" So, I backed off and let him continue, I can't afford a fine like that. But I did tell him I enjoyed the experience. When I got back I informed my employer I would no longer be taking trips for work, they aren't happy about that.
My bottom line is the TSA is a joke. I don't have a problem with the metal detectors, or the dumb ass "sniffer" machines that were used for a short time. Removing shoes and shit like that, yeah whatever, if it floats their boat.
The number one thing TSA could do to "protect us" is....wait for it.....PROFILING! Using qualified, trained profilers they can do a better job than they've ever dreamed of doing.
I always like this argument - so if someone in military service thinks I should give up my civil liberties, I have no say in it? What if there is another officer who thinks giving up civil liberties is not a good idea? Just so that you know, your argument is without substance and does not advance the discussion..
Dude, you asked what I did. I answered. And I asked what you have done. That is all.
So back to the issues.
I am waiting for the vagina bomber or the buttcrack bomber.
What if we have another attack but this time from a vagina?
What if we have an attack from cargo ?????????????????????
What if the really smart terrorists just start doing Mumbai-style attacks on elementary schools?
What if terrorists get jobs at restaurants and all on the same day put a biotoxin in the food?
What if terrorists put a dirty bomb on a container ship? What if they transfer it to a fishing boat along the way?
I guess we will need TSA agents at all of these people doing genuine cavity searches, right?
This airport stuff is just plain stupid, and I am surprised that so many otherwise intelligent people are eager to give up their Constitutionally guaranteed freedoms for nothing more than personal humiliation, and not the slightest improvement in security. All this is doing is destroying the airlines, destroying our liberties, and destroying our country.
Two questions
Is security to you an all or nothing thing? Either you have it all, or you have none of it?
Do you CCW?
PJ
The problem is that we are and will always be one step behind the terrorists. This problem we are just now reacting to (the underwear bomber) is old news. Shoe bomber? Now we have to take off our shoes. They've already moved on other methods.
What we need to do is stop this ridiculous dog and pony show. All these machines and pat downs and whatever else is nothing more than bureaucratic bullshit so the people in charge can say they did something. And meanwhile, not one terrorist has ever been caught by these methods.
I think what we need to do is focus on methods that have worked. For example, the Israeli model of behavioral analysis and profiling. And also focusing on intelligence to head off these things before they even get to the point of execution.
When we give up our rights to combat terrorism, that shows me the terrorists are accomplishing their goals. As they have clearly stated, they don't even need an attack to be successful in order to accomplish their end goal. And idiocy like this proves that.
I agree with the blue.
Yes we are reactive in our homeland security measures. But we are very proactive in other areas.
While we are reacting, we are denying them previous methods of attacks.
PJ
Gutshot John
11-24-10, 19:52
What I fail to understand in all of this is that we endure this nonsense because we are afraid of offending those that are trying to kill us, but not afraid to offend those being protected.
Additionally if I give up my Constitutional rights and must submit to a search as a precondition of flying, why can't others also submit to profiling, racial or otherwise?
This whole process is asinine. I'd have no problem with the searches/backscatter x-ray if they were also profiling the most likely to commit these crimes.
GermanSynergy
11-24-10, 21:50
Sounds like pissed off the wrong Blart!
I got pulled from the full body scanner and got the pat down today. They said because I moved while in the scanner, I was going to be searched.
So as the TSA agent moves toward my crotch with a full on death grip, I let out a little moan. He stands up and asks me "how would you like a 10K fine for indecent behavior and resisting a search?" So, I backed off and let him continue, I can't afford a fine like that. But I did tell him I enjoyed the experience. When I got back I informed my employer I would no longer be taking trips for work, they aren't happy about that.
My bottom line is the TSA is a joke. I don't have a problem with the metal detectors, or the dumb ass "sniffer" machines that were used for a short time. Removing shoes and shit like that, yeah whatever, if it floats their boat.
The number one thing TSA could do to "protect us" is....wait for it.....PROFILING! Using qualified, trained profilers they can do a better job than they've ever dreamed of doing.
IrishDevil
11-24-10, 22:42
Yeah, it was just a little "oooohh", that and the slight thrusting motion probably didn't help. I'm surprised he didn't leave a bruise as hard as he was squeezing on me.
I'll admit he was "just doing his job" and I was a little pissed about not denying the scanner, then getting a pat down because I "moved". Funny how as I waited in line 2 other people "moved" and had to do the pat down. I'd heard about some outrageous fines and didn't want to test the waters.
CaptainDooley
11-24-10, 22:49
Seriously? The solution is not groping and nudie photos. I've been through security in different parts of the world... know who hasn't had a plane ****ed with in a while? Israel. Wanna know what they do? They have trained, intelligent people interview everyone who goes through their airport and really gives their documents a close scrutiny.
Better trained individuals who know what the hell to look for and know how to discern it are the answer - not illegal searches and technology that can be easily defeated, yet strips away our right to privacy, all run by McDonald's fry cook rejects.
Protect my civil liberties? Yeah, I became an officer in the Marine Corps. You?
I had the opportunity to take some classes with a professor who was very smart with game theory and had some unique insights into detecting terrorists.
A few thoughts:
Terrorists believe it or not are really smart and adapt quickly
They have probabley realized by now that our profiling efforts are directed toward middle aged men of middle east decent flying on one way tickets
So how do they over come this? they make the attacker to be an old woman, or young boy, or teeenage girl anything that does not fit our mold of a terrorist is now a viable option for the terrorist to use. Am I saying that boy was a terrorist. HELLL NO. What I am saying is a terrorist has no specific color, gender, race. Ones that we need to worry about are ****ing chamelions in how they operate.
Am I saying that terror groups are broadening their horizons and looking for ways to beat our profiling. HELLL YES.
Also what would you say if your "droopey boobies" turned out to be HME? Or what will you say when another attack happens?
PJ
ForTehNguyen
11-24-10, 23:24
looks like we found out where TSA likes to search for prospective employees:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/federal-eye/2010/07/tsa_using_pizza_boxes_to_recru.html
IrishDevil
11-24-10, 23:38
Somehow, this isn't that surprising. Kinda brings it all into perspective now.
Do not get me wrong, there is alot we need to change in the implementation and execution of our security.
However this is what we have now. So this is what we have to use for now.
It is the 50% solution. Not as good as 100% but a hell of alot better than 0%.
Also, so many of you are so pissed off about this, what have you done to change it?
PJ
CaptainDooley
11-25-10, 08:51
It's just what they've chosen to use for now - it's not our only option and we don't have to live with it.
Personally I have contacted my lawmakers and the white house to lodge a complaint. In addition to that I have done my best to raise awareness about the issue and to educate those around me about their constitutional rights.
Do not get me wrong, there is alot we need to change in the implementation and execution of our security.
However this is what we have now. So this is what we have to use for now.
It is the 50% solution. Not as good as 100% but a hell of alot better than 0%.
Also, so many of you are so pissed off about this, what have you done to change it?
PJ
Personally I have contacted my lawmakers and the white house to lodge a complaint. In addition to that I have done my best to raise awareness about the issue and to educate those around me about their constitutional rights.
OUTSTANDING. I mean that.
I could honestly care less if someone disagrees with me as long as they are taking action and just not bitching about something they feel is wrong.
As to the actual content of the problem. Like I said, it is the current solution (50%) to a problem. When we can implement a new solution that is more efficient and effective lets do it.
PJ
Here's an interesting graphic from Gizmodo's site on the history of airport screening. Nice timeline and very illuminating. TSA doesn't come out looking very good when we look at the history. They are continually basing their procedures based on the last threat, not the next one...
http://gizmodo.com/5696276/the-history-of-airport-security-visualized
The_War_Wagon
11-25-10, 13:37
Hey - GOOD news! If you hassle the TSA, you go on the DHS-shiitelist! https://www.m4carbine.net/images/icons/icon14.gif
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/30286
And if you ENCOURAGE resistance to da' MAN, you're ALSO on the shiitelist!
Happy Thanksgiving from your gummint - we're ALL covered in shiite now, here at M4C! :rolleyes:
A few thoughts:
Terrorists believe it or not are really smart and adapt quickly
PJ
I come from a family of scientists and was recently having a conversation with my mother who is a professor of Biology. She was commenting about how her students prove several theories of adaptation with their ability to cheat on tests. After 15 years of teaching she has seen 15 years of evolution regarding making it difficult for cheaters to succeed at their craft. Every time a system is put in place (no matter how complex, or how "fool proof") there is always a student that is capable of cracking it.
The same goes for computer operating systems. How many times do you have to download security updates for your operating system?
Why am I saying this? Because you are right, but totally wrong in your assumption that stricter pat downs, and body scans are some how going to prevent a terrorist attack on this nation. Any system we put in place has the possibility of being defeated by a willing and dedicated individual. With that knowledge in mind, I personally am not willing to continually bow down and sacrifice my civil liberties for a false sense of security. Every time we give something up they win a small victory. And since you fought to defend this nation, you should take special offense to this reality!
Do you really think that a dedicated terrorist cell will fall victim to security measures that they can easily look up and learn about online? There are a million tiny cracks in our nations security net, all of them are wide open and waiting to be exploited. Body scanners and pat downs do absolutely nothing to fill these holes. All they do is offer a false sense of security to people that are willing to embrace them, and further erode our civil liberties.
GermanSynergy
11-25-10, 13:51
Keeps getting better every day.
Hey - GOOD news! If you hassle the TSA, you go on the DHS-shiitelist! https://www.m4carbine.net/images/icons/icon14.gif
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/30286
And if you ENCOURAGE resistance to da' MAN, you're ALSO on the shiitelist!
Happy Thanksgiving from your gummint - we're ALL covered in shiite now, here at M4C! :rolleyes:
I come from a family of scientists and was recently having a conversation with my mother who is a professor of Biology. She was commenting about how her students prove several theories of adaptation with their ability to cheat on tests. After 15 years of teaching she has seen 15 years of evolution regarding making it difficult for cheaters to succeed at their craft. Every time a system is put in place (no matter how complex, or how "fool proof") there is always a student that is capable of cracking it.
The same goes for computer operating systems. How many times do you have to download security updates for your operating system?
Why am I saying this? Because you are right, but totally wrong in your assumption that stricter pat downs, and body scans are some how going to prevent a terrorist attack on this nation. Any system we put in place has the possibility of being defeated by a willing and dedicated individual. With that knowledge in mind, I personally am not willing to continually bow down and sacrifice my civil liberties for a false sense of security. Every time we give something up they win a small victory. And since you fought to defend this nation, you should take special offense to this reality!
Do you really think that a dedicated terrorist cell will fall victim to security measures that they can easily look up and learn about online? There are a million tiny cracks in our nations security net, all of them are wide open and waiting to be exploited. Body scanners and pat downs do absolutely nothing to fill these holes. All they do is offer a false sense of security to people that are willing to embrace them, and further erode our civil liberties.
So no security then?
So because your front door can be breached in about .5 seconds should you even bother locking it?
I think there is a chance that if terrorists do try any of the on body bomb methods we have seen around the world, that pat downs or look overs could prevent it. Like THIS (graphic) (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=912_1196527853)
Yes it all hinges on people doing their jobs, and thats where I think we lack. Are there other options. YEP. Do we have them in place now. NOPE
I am trying to look at the balance of security and practicality.
I will probabley be flying civillian in January. If these measures are still in place I will get my balls brushed and move on.
BTW, right after 9/11 what was your first ideas regarding security and airline travel?
PJ
Gutshot John
11-25-10, 19:01
So no security then?
Why does it have to be an "all-or-nothing" proposition?
No one objects to security screening as a principle but the methods by which this is being conducted, and dissent being squashed, is downright frightening.
Why does it have to be an "all-or-nothing" proposition?
No one objects to security screening as a principle but the methods by which this is being conducted, and dissent being squashed, is downright frightening.
Well said Gutshot.
Belmont31R
11-26-10, 00:18
So no security then?
So because your front door can be breached in about .5 seconds should you even bother locking it?
I think there is a chance that if terrorists do try any of the on body bomb methods we have seen around the world, that pat downs or look overs could prevent it. Like THIS (graphic) (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=912_1196527853)
Yes it all hinges on people doing their jobs, and thats where I think we lack. Are there other options. YEP. Do we have them in place now. NOPE
I am trying to look at the balance of security and practicality.
I will probabley be flying civillian in January. If these measures are still in place I will get my balls brushed and move on.
BTW, right after 9/11 what was your first ideas regarding security and airline travel?
PJ
It doesn't matter if you gave everyone a CT scan and an MRI. Neither of those methods in the US would have prevented the shoe bomber or the Christmas day bomber.
In both the case of 9/11 and the Christmas bomber those were failures of the intelligence community. The 9/11 guys were in some dude's file bin in his desk after they got reports about them in flight school. With the later the guys own dad went to the embassy, and said my son is up to something with a flight. He was still allowed to board a plane. The shoe bomber, also, was on an in bound flight.
Could these measures have prevented 9/11? No. What prevents another 9/11 is that passengers know if an aircraft gets taken their only hope is to try to overtake the hijackers. We now have hardened cockpit doors, and pilots can be armed. Our sky Marshall program is back on track. Those measures will do far more to deter another 9/11 than feeling up our wives coochies and looking at them nude through a scanner.
The bottom line is no matter what we do terrorism is still a possibility. CT scans, MRI scans, fingers up the ass.... next time it will just be a vest of c4 with ball bearings in a TSA line at O'hare or DC. Then what?
No its not do nothing. Its not turning us into a police state where our bodies are not our own anymore in the name of false security. Imagine you were a terrorist. Could you still **** a bunch of people up?
No its not do nothing. Its not turning us into a police state where our bodies are not our own anymore in the name of false security. Imagine you were a terrorist. Could you still **** a bunch of people up?
Great post Belmont.
I am really encouraged to hear that so many people are thinking along the same lines regarding this.
The above statement is my point exactly. When I was talking about the thousands of cracks in our security net, I wanted to emphasize that in many ways our fixation with the next attack even involving an airliner could very well be the next great intelligence failure. That was my point about systems being defeated by a determined enemy. The Mumbai attack proved that not every terrorist attack is going to follow the same MO.
VMI-MO:
It is my belief that it is only once we as a society (not a government) embrace the fact that we don't have complete control over the offensive tactics of every terrorist cell in the world that ever wants to hurt us, that we can then start to focus on this important things that make us Americans. It isn't our standard of living that makes this country so great, it is our freedoms, if we give up those while maintaining our standard of living in the short term, we are going to loose, and most of the population wont even realize they've lost until it's to late.
Being aware of the fact that there is a terrorist threat is the key, not so terrified that as Belmont said, we are willing to let the Government feel up our wives, and look at us naked.
Why does it have to be an "all-or-nothing" proposition?
No one objects to security screening as a principle but the methods by which this is being conducted, and dissent being squashed, is downright frightening.
I am not saying that at all.
It seems like many of these people who are calling the TSA a bunch of Mcdonalds reject CHOMO's are making that assumption. If I am wrong in that then I take it back.
Also what level of security to you propose then?
PJ
Also what level of security to you propose then?
Actually knowing who is getting on an airplane would be a good first start. From there subject people to various levels of scrutiny as appropriate. Our current system seems to subject Medal of Honor recipients and former Miss America title holders to the same procedures as violent felons who convert to Islam in prison.
Regarding TSA's disgusting practice of searching hundreds of passengers without changing gloves:
"Anything can be transmitted. If there are open wounds and they [TSA agents] are not aware, there's syphilis, gonorrhea, herpes, chlamydia, lice, ringworm."
Other things which can be transmitted, for example:
staph
flu
jockitch
tropical agents
strep
herpes
hepatitus A
anything carried in diarrhea (use your imagination about how that gets on the gloves)
anything carried in menstrual blood
"Physicians undergo extensive training, follow strict rules and even have those who watch them to make sure they follow procedures to reduce to an absolute minimum the likelihood of carrying disease from one person to another, she said. "
...
'TSA is involved in extremely risky behavior that could spread disease," the website warned.
"TSA agents are not trained as medical personnel. Just as they don't seem to grasp the Bill of Rights, they also may not understand how infectious disease is spread.'
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=232457
Why did the Democrats scream bloody murder when soldiers took nude photos of prisoners in Iraq, but they think the government taking nude photos of everyone and spreading disease by genital fondling is just fine and dandy???
The government says the nudie x-ray is safe. The government said Agent Orange was safe. The government said asbestos was safe. The government said thalidomide was safe. etc. We can't believe the government, and there are reputable scientists claiming the nudie x-ray is not safe.
So here are your options:
a.) Give the government a nudie photo, which it will likely mishandle and will eventually end up on the internet, and later get cancer, losing your 4th Amendment rights and your right to privacy just to get on an airplane.
b.) Allow some disgusting goon TSA agent to fondle you and give you a nice sample of disease from the last few hundred passengers.
c.) Walk. No buses, trains, boats, or subways. Eventually expect these inspections at bridges, tunnels, state borders, highway on-ramps, etc.
d.) Stay home.
And the liberals who want to 'protect civil liberties' don't have a problem with this???
Here is an excellent and important article which explains in detail the President's motivation in implementing these new procedures:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/11/tsa_groping_and_obamas_black_r.html
Protest people, protest. I have written to my entire DC delegation, the governor, mayor, and state attorney general (I don't dare contact the US Atty Gen because he is likely to send ACORN thugs after me). I am now writing a letter of the same content to the CEOs of the major airlines explaining my concerns and my conclusion that they will not be seeing my business and they can go out of business for all I care if they allow this to continue.
My solution:
1. Bulldoze the nudie x-ray machines. Prosecute Michael Chertoff. Impeach Janet Incompetant. Fire John Pistole and prosecute him under the civil rights act.
2. Use the old metal detectors, puffer machines, and bomb sniffing dogs.
3. PROFILE PROFILE PROFILE. NO VISAS TO PERSONS FROM [list all the bad countries, such as Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Ethiopia, Nigeria, Somolia, etc.), except diplomatic and limited business visas. No student visas to them, no tourist visas to them, not immigration whatsoever from those places.
4. PROFILE the passengers who get on the plane. Hire former El Al security guys to set it up and manage it.
5. Loosen the ROE. Something like, "It shall be considered justifiable homicide for any airline passenger or group of them to take the life of a fellow traveler attempting to hijack an aircraft, take a hostage, set off a bomb, ignite any materials on board an aircraft ... etc."
6. There are probably other things to do too without becoming a commie regime.
Gutshot John
11-26-10, 11:15
Also what level of security to you propose then?
The same level of security that was in place a little over a month ago is a start.
That would be the same level of security that has successfully prevented another 9/11.
Can that be improved? Sure it's called profiling. Gate-raping 80 year old grandmothers and 4 year old lil boys doesn't make us safe, it makes us sheep.
Bombs will exist and have existed for decades. Pre 9/11 security did a pretty good job of preventing most of those. Will one get through again? Probably but even this does nothing to change that.
I'm far more likely to be victim of a violent crime walking down my street, does that mean I want cops searching everyone on it? Hell no.
GermanSynergy
11-26-10, 11:59
All these points are great, but they make far too much sense to actually be implemented.
Given the current ....erm....quality of the screeners, I don't think we could implement an Israeli style screening process. We'd have to, like you said, bring in Israeli specialists, which would make the anti-Semites go nuts.
My solution:
1. Bulldoze the nudie x-ray machines. Prosecute Michael Chertoff. Impeach Janet Incompetant. Fire John Pistole and prosecute him under the civil rights act.
2. Use the old metal detectors, puffer machines, and bomb sniffing dogs.
3. PROFILE PROFILE PROFILE. NO VISAS TO PERSONS FROM [list all the bad countries, such as Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Ethiopia, Nigeria, Somolia, etc.), except diplomatic and limited business visas. No student visas to them, no tourist visas to them, not immigration whatsoever from those places.
4. PROFILE the passengers who get on the plane. Hire former El Al security guys to set it up and manage it.
5. Loosen the ROE. Something like, "It shall be considered justifiable homicide for any airline passenger or group of them to take the life of a fellow traveler attempting to hijack an aircraft, take a hostage, set off a bomb, ignite any materials on board an aircraft ... etc."
6. There are probably other things to do too without becoming a commie regime.
Why did the Democrats scream bloody murder when soldiers took nude photos of prisoners in Iraq, but they think the government taking nude photos of everyone and spreading disease by genital fondling is just fine and dandy???
I had the courage and patriotism to scream at both thank you very much!!!!
TSA now groping women wearing maxi pads.
teve Watson
Prisonplanet.com
Thursday, Nov 25th, 2010
Menstruating women beware. If you intend to travel, your panty-liners are now considered suspicious objects, after all you could be concealing a bomb in there.
The latest insane TSA transgression answers questions that were raised last week when it was revealed naked body scanners can also detect sanitary napkins.
New York Times reporter Joe Sharkey wrote Monday that he was getting a lot of requests for information from female frequent fliers.
“Do the imagers, for example, detect sanitary napkins?” women wanted to know. “Yes,” wrote Sharkey.
“Does that then necessitate a pat-down? The TSA couldn’t say. Screeners, the TSA has said, are expected to exercise some discretion.” the article continued.
“And what about tampons?” asked the blog Feminist Peace Network. “They look kind of like sticks of dynamite. Are they going to ask us to pull them out and show them just to be sure?”
The answer, judging from one woman’s written testimony, seems to be yes.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/sanitary-towel-prompts-tsa-to-grope-sexual-assault-victim.html
TSA now groping women wearing maxi pads.
Where does it end???
I have written my Senator (not that it does any good where I live), and my Representative (good guy).
I have been emailing them links such as the one that started this thread. Let them see first hand the mess Barry has us in.
More women need to complain about the feminine products. That should create quite the furor I would think. Caution, do not fly while....
I also plan to write the airlines.
GermanSynergy
11-26-10, 16:36
When they cart us on planes ala Hannibal Lecter style, complete with muzzles.
Where does it end???
rickrock305
11-26-10, 18:44
Here is an excellent and important article which explains in detail the President's motivation in implementing these new procedures:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/11/tsa_groping_and_obamas_black_r.html
LMFAO. Excellent and important? I've never seen a bigger piece of garbage writing in all my life.
LMFAO. Excellent and important? I've never seen a bigger piece of garbage writing in all my life.
Yes, the left insists on deriding that which causes them embarrassment.
LMFAO. Excellent and important? I've never seen a bigger piece of garbage writing in all my life.
While I tend to think it has simpler roots and has nothing to actually do with BHO as its instigator, why do you say this? What expertise do you bring to the subject of psychology to refute this?
(I think it is incompetence on the level of TSA leadership who focus on simple outward appearances so as to appear to be doing something and minds straight jacketed by PC thought patterns and a fear of PC backlash if they do things more effectively )
rickrock305
11-26-10, 22:58
While I tend to think it has simpler roots and has nothing to actually do with BHO as its instigator, why do you say this? What expertise do you bring to the subject of psychology to refute this?
Did you read the article? Its absolute trash, like some real Jerry Springer/Geraldo nonsense. Full of inaccuracies and outright lies.
Here is someone who DOES have some expertise in mental health, and who is clearly on the right, and she calls Mr. Lewis for what he is...full of crap.
http://joytiz.com/2010/american-thinkers-resident-psychiatrist-cites-wikipedia/
(I think it is incompetence on the level of TSA leadership who focus on simple outward appearances so as to appear to be doing something and minds straight jacketed by PC thought patterns and a fear of PC backlash if they do things more effectively )
I agree there!
John_Wayne777
11-26-10, 23:56
Folks, the TSA nonsense isn't something Obama came up with. The TSA would have attempted to do the same thing if Bush was in office...and it's just as likely that the Bush administration would be defending the procedures.
Folks, the TSA nonsense isn't something Obama came up with. The TSA would have attempted to do the same thing if Bush was in office...and it's just as likely that the Bush administration would be defending the procedures.
Thank you very much. I really do wonder how many people on this board would be complaining about this stuff if it was Bush or a Tea Party President turning a blind eye to this nonsense! I am not defending Obama, nor am I trying to insight conflict, but I think everyone that is upset right now should reflect on why they really are upset. Then ask one's self: "Would I still show the same level of commitment, frustration, and desire to act if the current President aligned himself with my political party?" If the answer to that question is "yes" then congrats, your finally awake. If it's no, you are just another reactionary lemming, walking in step with the federal government.
I really do wonder how many people on this board would be complaining about this stuff if it was Bush or a Tea Party President turning a blind eye to this nonsense!
I don't think us being on our way to requiring a prostate exam before boarding an airplane is a partisan issue. People are right to be upset and would be regardless of who was in office. This wonder on your part betrays your partisanship just as much.
I don't think us being on our way to requiring a prostate exam before boarding an airplane is a partisan issue. People are right to be upset and would be regardless of who was in office. This wonder on your part betrays your partisanship just as much.
Bull shit it does. It betrays absolutely nothing about me. In the last 6 months that Bush held office there was a press release about the use of full body scanners by the TSA in airports. A little over two years later, and now that they're in place, people are screaming like if they had known they would be pissed.
Your just trying to avoid the reality of my statement which is that people turn a blind eye to the president that walks goose step with their own political beliefs. How you could turn that into a claim of partisanship on my part is actually king of mind boggling. Maybe you should re-read what I wrote before you assume! ;)
variablebinary
11-27-10, 04:01
Folks, the TSA nonsense isn't something Obama came up with. The TSA would have attempted to do the same thing if Bush was in office...and it's just as likely that the Bush administration would be defending the procedures.
Ya think...
http://www.semp.us/_images/biots/Biot507PhotoE.jpg
Folks, the TSA nonsense isn't something Obama came up with. The TSA would have attempted to do the same thing if Bush was in office...and it's just as likely that the Bush administration would be defending the procedures.
Hmmm, this makes sense.
All these people screaming for our liberties being infringed, what were your opinions on how the CIA conducted themselves after 9/11? Or how the NSA did their job?
PJ
jklaughrey
11-27-10, 11:31
Not saying all but our local news reported it didn't happen and that on a national level there was little to no impact in most airports. Guess people were more interested in making their flight to see loved ones versus being disobedient and causing a delay.
http://www.krem.com/news/local/Opt-out-fizzles-out-at-airports-110529279.html
Good luck with the boycott. But I ask maybe just not even travel, I don't want my time wasted while the TSA has to appease your civil/moral issues with the new policy.
John_Wayne777
11-27-10, 12:57
Bull shit it does. It betrays absolutely nothing about me. In the last 6 months that Bush held office there was a press release about the use of full body scanners by the TSA in airports.
A press release is one thing. The reality of the things hitting the flying public is quite another phenomenon. The backlash isn't really partisan. I sincerely doubt the "Don't touch my junk!" guy is some sort of conservative activist trying to bring down Obama's approval numbers. Odds are he's just a guy who is wondering how groping his crotch is supposed to fight terrorism.
Hmmm, this makes sense.
All these people screaming for our liberties being infringed, what were your opinions on how the CIA conducted themselves after 9/11? Or how the NSA did their job?
PJ
What specifically are you referring to? Things like listening in on phone calls placed to foreign countries? That sort of thing was nothing new. The US government had been doing that sort of stuff since WWII.
jklaughrey
11-27-10, 13:07
JW, I thought groping of the crotch was an added cost? No different to me than getting the annual physical. Just these guys do it for free versus your co pay to the insurance.
A press release is one thing. The reality of the things hitting the flying public is quite another phenomenon. The backlash isn't really partisan. I sincerely doubt the "Don't touch my junk!" guy is some sort of conservative activist trying to bring down Obama's approval numbers. Odds are he's just a guy who is wondering how groping his crotch is supposed to fight terrorism.
I don't think it's partisan either, and to tell you the truth it's about friggen time that there is something both sides can agree on as a violation of our civil rights. I just wish that as a populace we were more aware, and more educated as a whole so that rather then be reactionary, we could actually cut these issues off at the pass.
The one thing I do think is partisan about this, is that enough people are upset with Obama on the Right that they have tuned in and started paying attention to the realities of the last decade. Paying attention isn't a bad thing, scape goating is.
What specifically are you referring to? Things like listening in on phone calls placed to foreign countries? That sort of thing was nothing new. The US government had been doing that sort of stuff since WWII.
I think there are ample sources, and resources out there (including leaked CIA videos, and Federal Documents) that show that our Federal Government has been up to more then just tapping foreigners phones in the last ten years.
What specifically are you referring to? Things like listening in on phone calls placed to foreign countries? That sort of thing was nothing new. The US government had been doing that sort of stuff since WWII.
Some of the policies regarding tapping domestic phones. Following potential suspects within the US.
Our rendition program.
Things along those lines. I was wondering if those calling for the end of the TSA supported those efforts and other things that so "greatly infringed on our liberties".
I was agreeing with your statement on the partisanship of civil liberties protest.
PJ
"TSA workers, some of whom may be pedophiles given the agency’s poor standard of background checks for its own employees, are openly groping children’s genitals in airports across the country."
Big Sis Forced To Respond To Nationwide Revolt Against TSA
Posted By kurtnimmo On November 12, 2010 @ 8:47 am In Featured Stories | 230 Comments
Paul Joseph Watson & Alex Jones
Infowars.com
November 12, 2010
GermanSynergy
11-27-10, 22:00
What issues do you have with rendition?
Some of the policies regarding tapping domestic phones. Following potential suspects within the US.
Our rendition program.
Things along those lines. I was wondering if those calling for the end of the TSA supported those efforts and other things that so "greatly infringed on our liberties".
I was agreeing with your statement on the partisanship of civil liberties protest.
PJ
What issues do you have with rendition?
It is a waste of jet fuel. Just shoot 'em where we find 'em.
What issues do you have with rendition?
I have no problems what so ever with those methods.
It just seems hypocritical to me that you are worried about getting your balls brushed, however you will allow a dude to be picked up and disappeared?
PJ
GermanSynergy
11-28-10, 08:56
If these "dudes" are Yemeni AQ types hiding from us in say....Sweden, I'm 100% for it.
I also totally oppose granting POW status to enemy combatants captured in the GWOT. Send em to GITMO, military tribunals and the whole 9 yards. No civilian trials.
My issue,sir, is that we appear to be more concerned with the so called rights of terrorists than we are with the actual rights of Americans.
I have no problems what so ever with those methods.
It just seems hypocritical to me that you are worried about getting your balls brushed, however you will allow a dude to be picked up and disappeared?
PJ
It just seems hypocritical to me that you are worried about getting your balls brushed, however you will allow a dude to be picked up and disappeared?
Possible, but I wonder if there couldn't be any practical, common sense reasoning behind his mindset. One based upon a particularly dangerous and urgent situation perhaps?
I have no problems what so ever with those methods.
It just seems hypocritical to me that you are worried about getting your balls brushed, however you will allow a dude to be picked up and disappeared?
PJ
IMO, non-citizens should be given NO RIGHTS UNDER THE US CONSTITUTION. Wire tap them. Abduct them if desired. Shoot them if the guys running ops think it is appropriate.
But US citizens are supposed to be protected by the Constitution, including the 4th amendment against UNREASONABLE search and seizure. [insert Martha Washington example here]
rickrock305
11-28-10, 10:28
TSA caught beating it to scanner images...
http://www.nothingrelevant.com/monkey-clown/tsa-caught-jerking-off-in-tulsa-airport/
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v641/500grains/tsachamberflag.jpg
TSA caught beating it to scanner images...
http://www.nothingrelevant.com/monkey-clown/tsa-caught-jerking-off-in-tulsa-airport/
The Onion is not the only place that writes satire you know.
This story isn't true.
rickrock305
11-28-10, 14:21
The Onion is not the only place that writes satire you know.
This story isn't true.
Yea, I figured as much after seeing this quote...
A spokesperson for Munch stated, “My client is definetely in a sticky situation, however, I have no doubts he will get-off on all charges. Being a TSA is a stressful job and Harrison took advantage of being alone to release some tension. Unfortunately, he got caught shooting knuckle babies on his work equipment.”
:D
IMO, non-Muslims should be given NO RIGHTS UNDER THE HOLY KORAN. Wire tap them. Abduct them if desired. Shoot them if the guys running ops think it is appropriate.
See how that works? You have the same mentality that the enemy does and as long as both persist our "War on Terror" will never end.
Anyone seen the Fox NFL TSA ad? Michael Strayhan walks thru the security checkpoint and they spray him with cologne, Jimmy Johnson sets off a metal detector and he pulls out a huge machete and the TSA guard goes "OH SWEET!" The ad ends with the words on teh screen "It's good to have the ring" lol. Mocking the sheeple.
Anyone seen the Fox NFL TSA ad? Michael Strayhan walks thru the security checkpoint and they spray him with cologne, Jimmy Johnson sets off a metal detector and he pulls out a huge machete and the TSA guard goes "OH SWEET!" The ad ends with the words on teh screen "It's good to have the ring" lol. Mocking the sheeple.
Along with the guy getting wanded in his underwear and the German Shepherd barking at him. GO BEARS!!!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v641/500grains/BarneyFranksqueezingnutsatTSA.jpg
So glad you edited that 500. YUCK!
RancidSumo
11-29-10, 00:10
IMO, non-citizens should be given NO RIGHTS UNDER THE US CONSTITUTION. Wire tap them. Abduct them if desired. Shoot them if the guys running ops think it is appropriate.
But US citizens are supposed to be protected by the Constitution, including the 4th amendment against UNREASONABLE search and seizure. [insert Martha Washington example here]
What a load of crap. The rights in the Constitution were not created by the by it or the founders of this nation. It simply recognizes preexisting rights. They exist independently from the US Constitution and are universal.
The first nine amendments (I'm not going to touch the rest right now because most do not deal with rights but simply government nonsense) are all variations and branches of property rights. For you to say that anyone who does not live in this country does not have those rights is absolute crap. It revels a whole in your philosophical and moral beliefs that is so large I can't believe you can continue to believe in it without stepping back and examining the contradiction and the fundamental flaw in your core beliefs.
Like Irish said, your mindset is just like that of Muslim extremists and terrorists; the only difference is that their belief system doesn't contradict itself nearly as badly as yours does. If you honestly believe that killing, kidnapping, and stealing from anyone that isn't a US citizen is okay, then in my opinion, you are no better that the terrorists we have been fighting. After all, you are on the same moral level.
LOL I find it funny when people talk about "rights". :sarcastic:
Your "rights" is something that can be changed for better or worse at any moment by another party against your will.
So called "rights" only exist when nobody has the upper hand.
What a load of crap. The rights in the Constitution were not created by the by it or the founders of this nation. It simply recognizes preexisting rights. They exist independently from the US Constitution and are universal.
The first nine amendments (I'm not going to touch the rest right now because most do not deal with rights but simply government nonsense) are all variations and branches of property rights. For you to say that anyone who does not live in this country does not have those rights is absolute crap. It revels a whole in your philosophical and moral beliefs that is so large I can't believe you can continue to believe in it without stepping back and examining the contradiction and the fundamental flaw in your core beliefs.
Like Irish said, your mindset is just like that of Muslim extremists and terrorists; the only difference is that their belief system doesn't contradict itself nearly as badly as yours does. If you honestly believe that killing, kidnapping, and stealing from anyone that isn't a US citizen is okay, then in my opinion, you are no better that the terrorists we have been fighting. After all, you are on the same moral level.
Awesome! The more and more I read this thread the more and more I feel like there are some amazing and true patriots on this page!
LOL I find it funny when people talk about "rights". :sarcastic:
Your "rights" is something that can be changed for better or worse at any moment by another party against your will.
So called "rights" only exist when nobody has the upper hand.
Your a cynical bastard, and so nihilistic it is difficult for me to take what you say with anything less then an ounce of salt. Can you please justify this statement with more then a few witty sentences? I know where your going with it, I just want to hear it from your voice.
Rights can not be granted. They just are. Others can attempt to take them away but it can only be done if we allow it.
Sadly, as a nation we are allowing it.
Unfortunately you have confused two different but related topics:
1. Existence of Rights. Rights are granted by the creator. This also appears to also be what you believe. This is based on natural law. In contrast, liberals believe rights are granted by the government. That philosophy is calledpositivism.
2. Legal Mechanism for Protection of Rights. In the U.S. this is our Constitution. It, and the implementing laws, are supposed to protect rights for U.S. citizens. It is up to people of other countries to figure out how to protect the rights that have been granted by their creator.
What a load of crap.
I will now try to untangle your confusion.
The first nine amendments (I'm not going to touch the rest right now because most do not deal with rights but simply government nonsense) are all variations and branches of property rights.
Nope! Wrong! Free speech, freedom of the press, freedom of association, right to keep and bear arms, freedom of religion, right to privacy, freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, procreation rights, etc. are NOT PROPERTY RIGHTS.
For you to say that anyone who does not live in this country does not have those rights is absolute crap.
Now here is a bit more of your confusion which I will try to untangle. People who live in other countries have rights endowed upon them by their creator. But they do not have the protection of the U.S. Constitution which established a republic plus the legal framework for the protection of the natural rights of Americans. See below for a more detailed explanation of this concept.
It revels a whole in your philosophical and moral beliefs that is so large I can't believe you can continue to believe in it without stepping back and examining the contradiction and the fundamental flaw in your core beliefs.
Like Irish said, your mindset is just like that of Muslim extremists and terrorists; the only difference is that their belief system doesn't contradict itself nearly as badly as yours does. If you honestly believe that killing, kidnapping, and stealing from anyone that isn't a US citizen is okay, then in my opinion, you are no better that the terrorists we have been fighting. After all, you are on the same moral level.
Oh my.
First let me mention that you are still confusing natural rights with a legal framework which protects them, and the jurisdictional bounds (or territorial bounds, if you prefer that terminology) of that legal framework. The U.S. Constitution is the Constitution of the United States of America, NOT THE"WORLD CONSTITUTION". The founders did not intend for it to be a world constitution. They established a republic on this territory known as the USA and provided the legal framework for the protection of the rights of the citizens of that republic, i.e., Americans. It is up to people living outside the territory of the USA to establish their own legal mechanisms for protecting their natural rights, but that is not our responsibility.
Further, the founders specifically contemplated that the use of force would be necessary to protect Americans from foreign threats (war powers), and for Americans to protect themselves from domestic threats (2nd Amendment).
There are 2 ways to protect against a foreign threat. One is to wait until they attack (Pearl Harbor) and then respond. The other is to preemptively eliminate the threat (Israel bombing Iraqi nuke facilities in 1984 or whenever).
Once the government of the United States establishes that a non-citizen is a threat, the government is free to take whatever action necessary to eliminate that threat per the foregoing paragraph. This would of course include snatching that person, disappearing that person, shooting that person, etc. Do you really think the drafters of the Constitution did not want the US government to be able to take action to protect America and Americans?
Since your post indicates you do not believe preemptively killing terrorists intent on killing Americans is moral activity, and in face since you believe that such action would be unconstitutional, then you must feel that the United States government and those who carry out its policies are immoral criminals for killing terrorist planners in Yemen, Pakistan, etc., to name just one type of example.
RancidSumo
11-29-10, 15:18
Unfortunately you have confused two different but related topics:
1. Existence of Rights. Rights are granted by the creator. This also appears to also be what you believe. This is based on natural law. In contrast, liberals believe rights are granted by the government. That philosophy is calledpositivism.
2. Legal Mechanism for Protection of Rights. In the U.S. this is our Constitution. It, and the implementing laws, are supposed to protect rights for U.S. citizens. It is up to people of other countries to figure out how to protect the rights that have been granted by their creator.
I will now try to untangle your confusion.
Nope, no confusion on my part. I understand the difference and that has nothing to do with what I said.
Nope! Wrong! Free speech, freedom of the press, freedom of association, right to keep and bear arms, freedom of religion, right to privacy, freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, procreation rights, etc. are NOT PROPERTY RIGHTS.
Actually they are. It is self-ownership. Since I have the right to my body, I have the right to freedom of speech (freedom of the press is just an extension of freedom of speech), association, and religion. Same goes for procreation rights although I'm not quite sure where that is in the first nine amendments. Search and seizure is clearly a property right; it states that nobody can go through and take my crap without a warrant (which presumably is issued after you have committed a crime, thus forfeiting a portion of your rights). Privacy though is something else. The right to privacy in your own home or property is from property rights in that you own the property and can say who may come in/on it. Privacy in public or on someone else's property is not a natural right.
Now here is a bit more of your confusion which I will try to untangle. People who live in other countries have rights endowed upon them by their creator. But they do not have the protection of the U.S. Constitution which established a republic plus the legal framework for the protection of the natural rights of Americans. See below for a more detailed explanation of this concept.
Well I am a Christian so I believe there is only one creator who created myself as well as them. The fact that they may believe differently doesn't make this any less true. Therefore, they possess the same rights that I do. I'm not arguing that they are subject to the Constitution, I'm saying that it is morally wrong for you to take their life, property, etc. on a MORAL level, not a legal one.
Oh my.
First let me mention that you are still confusing natural rights with a legal framework which protects them, and the jurisdictional bounds (or territorial bounds, if you prefer that terminology) of that legal framework. The U.S. Constitution is the Constitution of the United States of America, NOT THE"WORLD CONSTITUTION". The founders did not intend for it to be a world constitution. They established a republic on this territory known as the USA and provided the legal framework for the protection of the rights of the citizens of that republic, i.e., Americans. It is up to people living outside the territory of the USA to establish their own legal mechanisms for protecting their natural rights, but that is not our responsibility.
Further, the founders specifically contemplated that the use of force would be necessary to protect Americans from foreign threats (war powers), and for Americans to protect themselves from domestic threats (2nd Amendment).
There are 2 ways to protect against a foreign threat. One is to wait until they attack (Pearl Harbor) and then respond. The other is to preemptively eliminate the threat (Israel bombing Iraqi nuke facilities in 1984 or whenever).
Once the government of the United States establishes that a non-citizen is a threat, the government is free to take whatever action necessary to eliminate that threat per the foregoing paragraph. This would of course include snatching that person, disappearing that person, shooting that person, etc. Do you really think the drafters of the Constitution did not want the US government to be able to take action to protect America and Americans?
The Constitution is the framework for our nation's legal system, not my moral beliefs. I honestly don't give a shit what the Constitution says, I judge whether something is right or wrong based on my philosophy and the moral values that I hold.
What I am saying is that since the actions you advocate do not pass the test of whether or not they are moral, they should not be done. Taking away someone's rights because you think that they might be a threat with basically no proof is not moral any way you slice it. Whether it is Constitutional or not is a completely different discussion.
Since your post indicates you do not believe preemptively killing terrorists intent on killing Americans is moral activity, and in face since you believe that such action would be unconstitutional, then you must feel that the United States government and those who carry out its policies are immoral criminals for killing terrorist planners in Yemen, Pakistan, etc., to name just one type of example.
If there is actual proof that someone is a criminal, in other words that they do or plan to take away another person's rights, then they have forfeited their rights in the same proportion. The issue I take is with statements such as yours where you say that we can do whatever we want to non US citizens with or without proof of guilt. This I believe is immoral and yes, I believe that the US government is an immoral entity. I also believe that if people choose to carry out some of its policies, then they are immoral as well.
Proof?
Evidence is used in court.
Information is used by decision makers.
I am glad that even Obama is more willing to take out terrorists than your views would permit.
RancidSumo
11-29-10, 15:24
LOL I find it funny when people talk about "rights". :sarcastic:
Your "rights" is something that can be changed for better or worse at any moment by another party against your will.
So called "rights" only exist when nobody has the upper hand.
Rights exist as a condition of being human. People may violate them but that doesn't mean they don't exist. If you do not believe in any rights at all then I honestly have no use for discussion with you because no amount of it will change your mind. You are simply wrong, that is all there is to it.
RancidSumo
11-29-10, 15:25
Proof?
Evidence is used in court.
Information is used by decision makers.
I am glad that even Obama is more willing to take out terrorists than your views would permit.
Well if you are going to play judge, jury, and executioner, then you damn well better have proof. Otherwise, like I said before, you are no better than the terrorists that you hate so much.
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