View Full Version : Up to date question regarding Gen 4, Glock, Model 17's
Street Survival
11-21-10, 17:25
Gentlemen,
I have a quick question for all our Competition Shooters / Active Combat Shooters. Do you truly believe all the bugs have been worked out of the New,Gen 4, Glock, Model 17's? Let me know what your current (November 2010) experience is? I'm about to purchase 2 of them. Thanks for your input.
__________________
Stay Safe
Jimmy
platoonDaddy
11-21-10, 17:30
.....
brushy bill
11-21-10, 18:13
:big_boss:
Friend of mine got one 2 days ago. The test fire date was October. He had multiple feeding failures in the first 30 rounds with FMJ practice ammo.
I would wait a little longer.
Alpha Sierra
11-21-10, 21:26
I had two FTEs in the first 460 rounds. Changed to an 02 spring and they went away.
Magic_Salad0892
11-22-10, 01:12
No issues in mine, 02 spring in two, 01 in the other.
Are the premature wear issues fixed?
I bought mine in August (02 spring) and have put approx 1100 rounds of various cheap range ammo through it. Myself, my wife, and 3 different friends have all fired it. Zero issues.
The "bug" is that the heavier redesigned spring assembly was designed to shoot hotter loads (i.e. defensive rounds) in a more controllable manner. The Gen4s shoot these hotter rounds softer than any other polymer pistol I've ever shot. The trade off is their unreliability with softer loads due to them not having enough power to get the slide to go all the way back. I have heard some anecdotal stories from a very small number of people mentioning issues with the new extractor, but these would not cause the FTFs that I have experienced as well as the details and photos of others and their FTF issues, as the round doesn't even come into contact with the extractor in these cases.
To answer YOUR question, if I were a competition shooter looking for lower PF rounds, I would NOT get the Gen4 guns. But, if you are looking to get these guns to shoot higher PF rounds, knowing they will still have the same benefits you see when shooting lower PF rounds in a gen3 gun, then have at it.
I own a Gen4 G19 and carry it on duty. I accepted the fact that I needed to shoot hotter rounds out of it, and as a reloader it didn't bother me a bit. My gun has been 100% with +P rounds as well as my current load (4.7gr titegroup, 115gr FMJ). I love my Gen4.
The "bug" is that the heavier redesigned spring assembly was designed to shoot hotter loads (i.e. defensive rounds) in a more controllable manner. The Gen4s shoot these hotter rounds softer than any other polymer pistol I've ever shot. The trade off is their unreliability with softer loads due to them not having enough power to get the slide to go all the way back.
You're giving Glock far too much credit.
They designed the 4th Gen as a fix to all of their .40S&W problems, then they dropped the 9mm's into it...and this is what you get. The exact opposite of the 2nd/3rd gen.
They released the slides initially with no recess for the spring assembly, then started doing it after their guns locked up like vaults on the line for numerous LE depts...oops.
They used the 3rd Gen spring for the takedown lever, despite the dustcover changing dimensions pretty noticably, then had to invent a new part after they were released...oops.
They released their 9mm's with the exact same springs as the .40S&W's, with evidently ZERO large scale testing with factory training ammo (budget FMJ), then had to create new springs to address these failures...oops.
C'mon, the only reason they shoot hotter loads better is because they designed the gun to shoot .40S&W, and took a lot of shortcuts converting it into a 9mm.
[B][COLOR="Blue"]Do you truly believe all the bugs have been worked out of the New,Gen 4, Glock, Model 17's?
No.
And I say that as a true Glock fanatic. There are far too many reports of these things choking than we say with Gen2 & Gen3 models for me to believe that they are good to go.
That’s not to say you can’t walk into the gun store, buy one and have 100% reliability though. I just think your chances of having one run on standard 115gr ammo are less than you would with a 3rd generation G17.
It’s the reason I haven’t added a Gen4 G17 (or G19) to my collection yet. I know the Glocks I own are good to go but I’m not so sure about the new ones. I’ll buy one eventually, just not now.
You're giving Glock far too much credit.
They designed the 4th Gen as a fix to all of their .40S&W problems, then they dropped the 9mm's into it...and this is what you get. The exact opposite of the 2nd/3rd gen.
They released the slides initially with no recess for the spring assembly, then started doing it after their guns locked up like vaults on the line for numerous LE depts...oops.
They used the 3rd Gen spring for the takedown lever, despite the dustcover changing dimensions pretty noticably, then had to invent a new part after they were released...oops.
They released their 9mm's with the exact same springs as the .40S&W's, with evidently ZERO large scale testing with factory training ammo (budget FMJ), then had to create new springs to address these failures...oops.
C'mon, the only reason they shoot hotter loads better is because they designed the gun to shoot .40S&W, and took a lot of shortcuts converting it into a 9mm.
I will certainly concede that it may not have been their original intention, but I know I'm not the only one who's noticed how soft it is while shooting high power ammo. I find this to be a desirable feature, as I find it to give me a slight advantage should I ever have to fire my weapon against someone.
I will certainly concede that it may not have been their original intention, but I know I'm not the only one who's noticed how soft it is while shooting high power ammo. I find this to be a desirable feature, as I find it to give me a slight advantage should I ever have to fire my weapon against someone.
I noticed that too, when I shot a 17 with plain ball. I was impressed how soft it shot.
glockshooter
11-22-10, 14:25
I have an early G4, and it has the orginal recoil spring. Mine has been flawless from the beginning. It has not had any problems of any kind. I dont really know how or why some people have issues with them and others dont. I would have to guess shooting styles may have some part in it. I have not met anyone that has personally had problems with theirs. I would really like to get my hands on one that is having problems to do some experimenting. I am not suggesting that it is simply a limp wristing issue, but I would like to rule it out.
Matt
Seen this on GT forum this afternoon, Glock is sending one out to me today.
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16341928&posted=1#post16341928
This past weekend I took Intensive Handgun Skills with John Holschen
(http://www.insightstraining.com/view_course.asp?courseID=12). I started with my HK45 (and had 2000 rounds of 45 ACP in tow), but somehow managed to change my grip such that I was constantly activating the magazine release while shooting. Needless to say, this messed with my mind a bit and I found myself focusing more on *not* dropping my mags than improving other aspects of my shooting. I still learned a lot the first day, but my shooting was just atrocious due to being psyched out and being down on myself.
So, I made the decision that night to pony up the cash, buy a G19 (had already been contemplating it), and ammo to ensure I got my money's worth of the remaining two days (Side note, I still *prefer* the HK, but decided to figure out what I'd changed in my grip to cause the mag drops outside of class rather than letting it distract me).
Anyway, West Coast Armory, where the class was occurring, had both Gen3 and Gen4 G19s available. I remembered vaguely reading about folks having issues with the G19 and I heard the voice of another Insights instructor, Mike Shertz, ringing in my ears as he said "Proven mediocre technology over the promise of something better". I ignored that voice and went with the Gen4. It was more ergonomic and it was "new". Plus the sales guy said he hadn't heard of any issues. I figured, it's a Glock. I'm sure it's fine.
So, day two, I'm excited to really get down to business. First drill of the day. Bang, FTE, Tap-rack-bang, FTE, Tap-rack-bang, FTE, Tap-rack-bang, FTE. This went on for a few magazines, before I borrowed a Gen2 G19 from another student. At lunch, I took the gun back to the counter and said it was just not acceptable. I'd just paid nearly a grand for ammo and a new gun so I could enjoy my class, only to have it shit on me. West Coast Armory handled this very professionally and made me a nearly even trade for a new Gen3. They took good care of me, when I know some other stores I've shopped at would have said I was shit out of luck and I needed to contact Glock.
Anyway, the Gen3 functioned pretty much flawlessly with the same ammo and magazines. In fairness, I started having an few FTE towards the end of day 3, but I think this was due to some combination of not having cleaned the gun, 1100 rounds through the thing, and the fact I started wearing tactical gloves.
In fairness, it was crappy PMC Bronze ammo, so maybe I wouldn't have had issues with NATO pressure ammo. To me, that's still unacceptable, since I shoot a fair bit and most of the ammo I use is probably considered "weak". Needless to say, I won't even consider another Gen4 Glock until I know the issues are ironed out. Of course this is all N=1, so I make no claim it's statistically significant, only my experience.
Side note: I *highly* recommend the course to anyone in the Washington area. Both my speed and accuracy improved dramatically. I was making shots towards the end, I never thought I'd be capable of.
Get a Gen3 and remove all doubt.
The frequency of issues being reported by individual owners of both Gen4 G17's and G19's and the fact Glock releases 2 different spring weights for owners to play around with gives me pause. Not acceptable for any service pistol and the fact Glock did this to their most reliable pistol lineup really is unfortunate.
This past spring and summer a couple of large west coast LE agencies had SIGNIFICANT, SEVERE malfunctions and parts breakages that rendered early 4th Gen Glocks completely inoperable until armorer intervention. These pistols were utterly unworthy of duty use. While Glock initially prevaricated and threatened, a Glock engineer essentially admitted the early 4th gen Glocks were not ready for prime time, but that numerous improvements had been introduced to try and fix things. Several weeks ago, a new batch of 4th gen Glocks arrived that do indeed seem to be working well. Unfortunately, Glock may have burned some bridges with their behavior this year... I am still running my 3rd gen 9 mm's and have had no problems over many thousands of rounds.
Beat Trash
11-22-10, 15:57
To the OP, I'd have to say it's a gamble. The two guns you are about to purchase, how new are they (when where they manufactured)?
Personally, I am staying with my Gen3 Glock 9mm's as I don't have the funds to spend on a gamble. My Gen3 9mm's work for me.
The various confirmed reports of the negative manner in which Glock has responded to LE agencies who honestly reported issues they've had with T&E Gen4 guns has turned me off of Glock.
I will be keeping the Gen 3 guns I currently own, but my future business will be going elsewhere.
This past spring and summer a couple of large west coast LE agencies had SIGNIFICANT, SEVERE malfunctions and parts breakages that rendered early 4th Gen Glocks completely inoperable until armorer intervention. These pistols were utterly unworthy of duty use. While Glock initially prevaricated and threatened, a Glock engineer essentially admitted the early 4th gen Glocks were not ready for prime time, but that numerous improvements had been introduced to try and fix things. Several weeks ago, a new batch of 4th gen Glocks arrived that do indeed seem to be working well. Unfortunately, Glock may have burned some bridges with their behavior this year... I am still running my 3rd gen 9 mm's and have had no problems over many thousands of rounds.
It's good to hear those issues were resolved. Perhaps now a more formal report of the BS that went down can be made?
To the OP, I'd have to say it's a gamble. The two guns you are about to purchase, how new are they (when where they manufactured)?
Personally, I am staying with my Gen3 Glock 9mm's as I don't have the funds to spend on a gamble. My Gen3 9mm's work for me.
The various confirmed reports of the negative manner in which Glock has responded to LE agencies who honestly reported issues they've had with T&E Gen4 guns has turned me off of Glock.
I will be keeping the Gen 3 guns I currently own, but my future business will be going elsewhere.
I'm well aware of the LE problems and Glock's response to the situation. By the time I found out about it, I was already an owner of a Gen4 G19 and decided to stick it out.
For me it's been fine. I'm able to work up my own load for it that functions it 100% and I'm glad I didn't hurry and get rid of it for a Gen3. Funds permitting, I will be buying a Gen3 sometime in the future as a backup.
I have heard there is an 04 spring out now (012/021 for the G17) which is lighter and allows for weaker loads to cycle properly. I've heard positive reports about its effect on cycling, but I've also heard reports saying the recoil impulse is noticeably increased.
While Glock initially prevaricated and threatened, a Glock engineer essentially admitted the early 4th gen Glocks were not ready for prime time, but that numerous improvements had been introduced to try and fix things.
Glock never has recalls....only "improvements".....
Although how you improve perfection is beyond me.
Just bought two more 3rd gen 19's.
If you want the gun for use as a potentially life saving tool, at this point at least, it is hard to talk yourself out of a Gen 2, or 3 G17, as those guns are essentially the gold standard of 9mm polymer framed combat pistols.
If you want a gun for fun, than you can try a Gen 4, and maybe you won't have any issues with it, but why be an early adopter of a tool that can potentially be needed to save your life?
I'd get a Gen 3 for serious use, and wait at least another year or so before contemplating a Gen 4, to see how things shake out.
I was on the verge of picking up a Gen4 G17/19, but didn't at the last minute. My gutt was telling me "no, not yet". I'm glad I waited. I'll keep my Gen3 G19/26, they have been flawless. My next purchase will be a M&P .45M.
mkmckinley
11-22-10, 17:28
This is all news to me. I never thought I'd see the day when a Glock 19 was a "maybe you'll get one that works" proposition.
10.2K rounds @ 100% feed, function, fire through four Gen 4 9mm's has sorta convinced me not to sweat it.
Like an earlier poster said, as a pure comp gun for low PF reloads, Gen 3 may be the smarter bet.
[edit - additional Glock Gen 4 gloating deleted]
Bowie Tactical
11-22-10, 17:46
I have seen quite a few gen4 guns this year. quite a few have worked BUT way to many have failed big time. way to many to be considered a trustable pistol right now. I know many of you have a working models but the high number of failures is risky buisness. I've seen two 19's in one class malfunction multiple times before they got through one mag. at the beginning of a class.
David Bowie
I know this thread is about 9mm guns but how are the. 40's doing? I currently am issued a gen3 35 but am scheduled to get a gen 4 replacement any day.
If you want the gun for use as a potentially life saving tool, at this point at least, it is hard to talk yourself out of a Gen 2, or 3 G17, as those guns are essentially the gold standard of 9mm polymer framed combat pistols.
If you want a gun for fun, than you can try a Gen 4, and maybe you won't have any issues with it, but why be an early adopter of a tool that can potentially be needed to save your life?
I'd get a Gen 3 for serious use, and wait at least another year or so before contemplating a Gen 4, to see how things shake out.
Honestly these type of arguments hold little water with me. I know I'm not going to be putting myself in a situation of ever having to use my Gen4 against someone else with anything less than +P high power defensive ammo. To and from the range, my bonded rangers are in the mag. The only time practice ammo goes in my gun is while I'm on the line at the range (and most of the time, I'm at the secure PD range anyhow).
So really, the only time my glock will be used as a life saving tool with low power ammo is on the range itself. Any other time it will have full power ammo, which is 100% in my gun and I don't think I've read of any other reports of FTE/FTF issues with full power defensive loads.
<shrug>
I know this thread is about 9mm guns but how are the. 40's doing? I currently am issued a gen3 35 but am scheduled to get a gen 4 replacement any day.
AFAIK, other than some very early problems with first run 22s, they have been fine.
Honestly these type of arguments hold little water with me. I know I'm not going to be putting myself in a situation of ever having to use my Gen4 against someone else with anything less than +P high power defensive ammo. To and from the range, my bonded rangers are in the mag. The only time practice ammo goes in my gun is while I'm on the line at the range (and most of the time, I'm at the secure PD range anyhow).
So really, the only time my glock will be used as a life saving tool with low power ammo is on the range itself. Any other time it will have full power ammo, which is 100% in my gun and I don't think I've read of any other reports of FTE/FTF issues with full power defensive loads.
<shrug>
I'm glad you got solid guns, but I'm a bit confused as to how it's only an issue if the gun malfunctioned with "full power defensive loads".
Do you *always* practice using such rounds? That would get expensive fast. I certainly couldn't afford to shoot nearly enough if I did that. If not, are not the malfunctions a pretty big deal? It's one thing to purposely practice malfunction clearance with snap caps, etc, it's another to have a range session totally derailed because your gun is shitting itself every other round.
I'm not meaning to be abrasive, but it's pretty clear Glock did not do their homework on the new 9mms and as someone who got burned by it (albeit very lightly burned) I just can't understand making excuses for it. I hope they clear up the issues with the Gen4 and I'm sure they will, but for now I couldn't in good conscience recommend anyone buy one, if he'll be staking his life on the weapon.
I'm glad you got solid guns, but I'm a bit confused as to how it's only an issue if the gun malfunctioned with "full power defensive loads".
Occasional FTF/FTE issues on the range with practice ammo aren't a big deal to me. My point is in a defensive situation, where malfunctions mean life or death, one would assume you would be using full power loads, thus the FTF/FTE issues with lighter loads are moot.
Do you *always* practice using such rounds? That would get expensive fast. I certainly couldn't afford to shoot nearly enough if I did that. If not, are not the malfunctions a pretty big deal? It's one thing to purposely practice malfunction clearance with snap caps, etc, it's another to have a range session totally derailed because your gun is shitting itself every other round.
I reload my own ammo. I bumped my powder charge a bit, so I do always practice with functioning loads. I do agree, if not a reloader these guns might be a pain to practice with. While there are certainly reports out there of Gen4s that fail on every round, most of them are occasional failures (as was my experience).
I'm not meaning to be abrasive, but it's pretty clear Glock did not do their homework on the new 9mms and as someone who got burned by it (albeit very lightly burned) I just can't understand making excuses for it. I hope they clear up the issues with the Gen4 and I'm sure they will, but for now I couldn't in good conscience recommend anyone buy one, if he'll be staking his life on the weapon.
I don't feel like I'm making excuses, all I am doing is explaining that the gen4 gun eats defensive loads like butter and shoots them in a much more comfortable manner than I've experienced before. Intentional or unintentional, I find this to be a desirable consequence of the situation. I understand the 04 spring is out there now, and will likely be the default spring installed in the new guns, but I hope they still make the 03 springs available for those of us who prefer them.
so...you would rather have a gun that is "more comfortable" to shoot in a gunfight (shooting your full power ammo), than one that runs 100%?
platoonDaddy
11-23-10, 10:41
Two more changes to the Gen 4 G17
Glock has now released the 02-1 spring without a counterbore and a 02 spring with counterbore.
Received permission from the poster of this picture on another forum to post it here:
http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad176/slickville/021spring.jpg
The poster who has the counterbore will post pictures shortly. With the counterbore, there will be certainly many spring options available from 3rd party and maybe even springs from Gen 3's.
so...you would rather have a gun that is "more comfortable" to shoot in a gunfight (shooting your full power ammo), than one that runs 100%?
That seems pointlesslessly argumentative. We all know full well what he means. High speed 1911 types insist on 18lb recoil springs too and that's not meant for mid-range SWC target ammo. The very first Gen 1's were sprung for NATO and got de-tuned also early on according to Glock historians. Sounds familiar.
Gen 4 9mms have been awesome for many and problematic for too many. We shall see.
One of these days I'll come across one with problems. The handful of shooters I know who've gotten 17s and 19s haven't had any problems either so no luck yet. But when I can, the 01 springs from mine will go into theirs and we'll see what we see.
I don't think recoil spring weight is the only factor involved but we shall see.
Two more changes to the Gen 4 G17
Glock has now released the 02-1 spring without a counterbore and a 02 spring with counterbore.
Received permission from the poster of this picture on another forum to post it here:
http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad176/slickville/021spring.jpg
The poster who has the counterbore will post pictures shortly. With the counterbore, there will be certainly many spring options available from 3rd party and maybe even springs from Gen 3's.
I've been going through this today, myself...I looked at the 17's, 19's, and 22's.
What we're seeing is "02-1" springs in slides without the counterbore, and non "-1" springs in slides WITH the counterbore. The 19's have "03" springs, with a counterbore. The 22's have "01" (not the "-1") springs and do have a counterbore.
The "-1" springs (as shown having the 1 in the 6 o'clock position on the rear of the spring) have a metal bevel on their front, which basically puts the recess onto the spring, instead of cutting it into the slides. In other words, they are not counterboring the nose rings on the newer guns shipping with the "-1" springs.
so...you would rather have a gun that is "more comfortable" to shoot in a gunfight (shooting your full power ammo), than one that runs 100%?
I'm apparently not doing a very good job of making myself clear.
In a gunfight, I'll be shooting defensive ammo. My gun will be both 100% reliable as well as "more comfortable" than many other polymer guns out there.
I'm apparently not doing a very good job of making myself clear.
In a gunfight, I'll be shooting defensive ammo. My gun will be both 100% reliable as well as "more comfortable" than many other polymer guns out there.
FYI, Glock is STILL changing stuff on these guns.
I understand that you feel confident in how they run with hotter ammo...but Glock is still not confident, evidently.
I think EVERYONE would have been happier if the Gen4 G17 retained the Gen3 recoil spring setup. A slightly softer recoil impulse with hotter defensive loads isn't a worthwhile trade off compared to all the brouhaha its caused so far and will continue to cause, whether its deserved or undeserved. Its a PR/public perception thing and its the first serious one for the G17 since its introduction back in the mid-80's. The G17's reputation at least in terms of reliability seemed almost unassailable until now.
And for me, the G17 is a potential survival tool. Who knows what I might have to stuff into it. Who knows what ammo choices will be like in the future. I like knowing its not that picky about what it eats. What if you're a contractor overseas? What if you're a soldier and your issue Gen4 G17 only digests premium hollowpoint ammo? Glock wants end users to differentiate between two different springs? Unacceptable for a standard service pistol. And very unGlock-like. Individual shooters who are diligent and go on internet forums may be able to adjust and learn to live with it but the general public, it only adds confusion and doubt.
varoadking
11-23-10, 19:38
You're giving Glock far too much credit.
They designed the 4th Gen as a fix to all of their .40S&W problems, then they dropped the 9mm's into it...and this is what you get. The exact opposite of the 2nd/3rd gen.
They released the slides initially with no recess for the spring assembly, then started doing it after their guns locked up like vaults on the line for numerous LE depts...oops.
They used the 3rd Gen spring for the takedown lever, despite the dustcover changing dimensions pretty noticably, then had to invent a new part after they were released...oops.
They released their 9mm's with the exact same springs as the .40S&W's, with evidently ZERO large scale testing with factory training ammo (budget FMJ), then had to create new springs to address these failures...oops.
C'mon, the only reason they shoot hotter loads better is because they designed the gun to shoot .40S&W, and took a lot of shortcuts converting it into a 9mm.
...and despite all that, I've had mine for 8 or 10 months and have gone thru over 3,000 rounds without the first issue...of any kind.
...and despite all that, I've had mine for 8 or 10 months and have gone thru over 3,000 rounds without the first issue...of any kind.
varoadking,
I don't think most people are saying most Gen4 G17's don't work. Most like yours seem to work fine even with soft ball factory loads. But the frequency of issues by individual users and Glock offering a different recoil spring for users to play with is unlike anything we've seen in the history of the G17. Hopefully the G17 will get back to being the "foolproof" pistol it always has been whether it stays in the current Gen4 format or a true revised version in the future......and as long as Glock continues to make the Gen3's available for those want them.
Alpha Sierra
11-23-10, 20:34
You can avoid all the Glock part number shuffles on 4th Gen pistols by getting a 4th Gen Glockmeister single captive spring guide rod in the stock, Gen 3 weight (17 lbs IIRC).
The shit just works and it is what Glock should have done from the get go.
The incidence of malfunctions and parts breakage on 9mm Glocks went from extremely rare to a number raising concerns when Glock went from Gen 3 to Gen 4. That is the problem. A known commodity became taking a chance. The brand is damaged.
Sure, a ton of them work well, but a bunch don't.
If Glock is smart, they will quietly drop the Gen 4 9's, and spend some serious time perfecting the .40.
I have a Gen4 19 with an 03 spring that runs like a champ. Lately ive been running blazer aluminum 115gr through it, actually ran about 300rds through this weekend with zero issues I've probably had around 1200rds through it total so far with only one malfunction that i can think of, had a double feed but it was with reloaded ammo.
You can avoid all the Glock part number shuffles on 4th Gen pistols by getting a 4th Gen Glockmeister single captive spring guide rod in the stock, Gen 3 weight (17 lbs IIRC).
The shit just works and it is what Glock should have done from the get go.
The trouble is that Glock hasn't committed to either cutting the 9mm slides with the recess or not.
At first they didn't have the recess, then they did, then they didn't...and who knows what'll happen next.
God knows what else they'll change on this pistol before they get it worked out for good.
The smartest thing they could do is ship 4th Gen frames with 3rd Gen slide assemblies (for the 9mm's). Of course, this is pretty much all anyone wanted in the first place, would absolve almost all doubt of their reliability problems, and not require any more R&D to figure out....so naturally, they'll never do it.
Instead, we'll have more quiet "upgrades", and need to consult a chart to figure out which parts we need in a Gen 4 based upon serial number prefixes.
All because Glock was too lazy to thoroughly test the design before they released it. (Just like Ruger and S&W.)
I'm getting really tempted to switch to HK.
They would need to make a new mold for the frame with the new texture, etc. because the frame is no longer compatible with a Gen 3 upper due to the accomodations made for the new spring assembly. But then, they also have had some breakage of the grip add-ons in hard use, so, they may want to go back to the drawing board entirely. Or just go back to improved texture Gen 3's.
My experience with the Gen 4 led me to try HK. 6573 rounds so far through a P30 without a bobble.... Just like my Gen 3's though.....
Alpha Sierra
11-24-10, 07:37
The trouble is that Glock hasn't committed to either cutting the 9mm slides with the recess or not.
If your Gen 4 does not have the guide rod counterbore on the inside of the slide (what you refer to as the recess), the Glockmeister spring/guide rod fits perfectly, as that was the only slide configuration on the market when GM designed their part.
If your slide is counterbored, order the GM guide rod/spring anyway and test fit it. If it fits without moving around, test fire it. If it works (and I don't see why it wouldn't) run it.
If the GM does have radial play when its flange is inserted in a counterbored guide rod hole, run it anyways and check for internal rubbing as well as 100% function. If you are still concerned, send it back for a refund.
If your Gen 4 does not have the guide rod counterbore on the inside of the slide (what you refer to as the recess), the Glockmeister spring/guide rod fits perfectly, as that was the only slide configuration on the market when GM designed their part.
If your slide is counterbored, order the GM guide rod/spring anyway and test fit it. If it fits without moving around, test fire it. If it works (and I don't see why it wouldn't) run it.
If the GM does have radial play when its flange is inserted in a counterbored guide rod hole, run it anyways and check for internal rubbing as well as 100% function. If you are still concerned, send it back for a refund.
Huh, thanks for the heads up. Didn't know they were that interchangable.
Thank you!
Alpha Sierra
11-24-10, 16:04
Just so we're clear, I am not saying the Glockmeister guide rod will work with counterbored slides. I am saying try it and if it doesn't work, send the rod back.
I do know from personal experience that it works awesome with the original, non-counterbored slide.
The incidence of malfunctions and parts breakage on 9mm Glocks went from extremely rare to a number raising concerns when Glock went from Gen 3 to Gen 4. That is the problem. A known commodity became taking a chance. The brand is damaged.
Sure, a ton of them work well, but a bunch don't.
If Glock is smart, they will quietly drop the Gen 4 9's, and spend some serious time perfecting the .40.
That's not a recommended action. They've had weak extraction and stiff recoil springs. Then they had recoil spring assemblies that would slide around and lock up the action. ALL simple fixes, relatively speaking. What's so hard to fix about that?
They could keep the new smaller frame and use the older slide/recoil mechanism assembly is what I think you actually mean. Yeah, I would have purchased that combo, too. :)
brushy bill
11-24-10, 20:37
I do know from personal experience that it works awesome with the original, non-counterbored slide.
Ditto this^^
Same experience. Don't know why Glock doesn't go to a similar system.
Ditto this^^
Same experience. Don't know why Glock doesn't go to a similar system.
The "02-1" spring is basically a dual layer version of that spring.
It is designed to work with the slides that do not have the beveled cut.
The incidence of malfunctions and parts breakage on 9mm Glocks went from extremely rare to a number raising concerns when Glock went from Gen 3 to Gen 4. That is the problem. A known commodity became taking a chance. The brand is damaged.
Sure, a ton of them work well, but a bunch don't.
If Glock is smart, they will quietly drop the Gen 4 9's, and spend some serious time perfecting the .40.
I keep reading over and over the story about the same two West Coast LE orgs that had some undefined issue testing Gen 4 .40's - but they have resolved that apparently and chose them. True?
ATF chose the Gen 4 .40's for actual ORDERS. Their phase 3 test consisted of 20K rounds through each test gun. Heard here one ATF tester was surprised. Heard elsewhere through the industry ATF testers really liked the Gen 4 G22. Well, they is buyin'em.
Here, and a few other boards I see LEO's post their depts tested Gen 4's - both .40 and 9mm's and selected them.
When you get around enough shooters that actually have these guns, you find the huge majority are cooking right along nicely. LAV's did too - and he is perfectly within his rights to still not prefer them of course.
Go count 'em. I have. But who cares? "Glock Perfection" as a motto was derided for years cause they weren't really perfect of course. Buying $900 HK's is awesome too. Check out the HK boards. They ain't universally perfect either. M&Ps are also in a state of quiet upgrades to sort out flaws which persist in affecting not that many but apparently too many guns. Christ Almighty people.
There's always Wilson Combat. :D
If I wasn't totally stocked up with Glocks, I'd be stocked up with M&Ps and I know they aren't flawless either. I like them both, warts and all. A fellow can do good work with all of them.
To quote LAV, "the Gen 4 is a dog, stick with the Gen 3." This came from the horse's mouth about two weeks ago. I have been drinking the Glock kool aid for many years now and planned to buy a new Gen 4 until he told me this.
I keep reading over and over the story about the same two West Coast LE orgs that had some undefined issue testing Gen 4 .40's - but they have resolved that apparently and chose them. True?
There are two large California agencies that have been testing the Gen4 Glock 22's. While some issues have been worked out neither agency has adopted the gun yet (or any other gun for that matter).
There have been a lot of rumors circulating about those two agencies' testing processes and what did or did not occur. Even if you speak to people that were there first hand they will give you different versions of the same story.
Curious about the whole thing, I decided to purchase a Gen4 G22 for myself. I have not been able to put enough rounds through it to really declare anything about it other than that I do not care for the grip or for Glock's new matte gray finish.
I will stick to my Gen3 guns for now for any meaningful social work.
crowkiller
11-25-10, 08:43
To quote LAV, "the Gen 4 is a dog, stick with the Gen 3." This came from the horse's mouth about two weeks ago. I have been drinking the Glock kool aid for many years now and planned to buy a new Gen 4 until he told me this.
Is this in reference to 9mm Glocks or all Gen 4 guns?
John_Wayne777
11-25-10, 11:37
In .40 I'd go with the Gen4. In 9mm I'd stick with the Gen3.
In .40 I'd go with the Gen4. In 9mm I'd stick with the Gen3.
I give friends and relatives similiar counsel unless they are really gun savvy and their not going to be totally dependent on the one. I just report on our good results.
Kaltblitz - thanks for the additional insight.
so...you would rather have a gun that is "more comfortable" to shoot in a gunfight (shooting your full power ammo), than one that runs 100%?
because dual recoil springs are necessary to tame the awesome recoil of 9x19 :confused:
I'm still not having any problems, using the first spring. I have lost count of rounds at this point, but it's a pretty good amount. I buy at least two boxes each paycheck, which is every two weeks. More if it's on sale.
Had a couple FTF's out of the gate (Sub-300 rounds), and never an issue since. I've only cleaned it a few times.
Gen 4, G17.
I am slightly worried about the backstrap, though. It seems to me that a good whack on a rock, or other hard surface, might break one of the tabs holding it on. Hasn't been an issue yet, but I've got my eye on it.
Why oh why couldn't Glock just either add the interchangeable backstraps or make a stipple-like texture on the the Gen 3's and call it the Gen 4? Instead they had to **** with what was a proven system.
Alpha Sierra
11-25-10, 16:22
To quote LAV, "the Gen 4 is a dog, stick with the Gen 3."
Since mine runs flawlessly, I don't care what he thinks.
Perhaps we should be more self-discriminating and less quick to listen to "gospel"?
Since mine runs flawlessly, I don't care what he thinks.
Perhaps we should be more self-discriminating and less quick to listen to "gospel"?
I wouldn't call advice from a Subject Mater Expert "gospel"...I'd call it "good advice."
The fact that your gun runs doesn't mean that all of them do. They do not enjoy the previous reputation the 3rd Gen guns had, so people would still be wise to heed LAV's advice.
That's not a recommended action. They've had weak extraction and stiff recoil springs. Then they had recoil spring assemblies that would slide around and lock up the action. ALL simple fixes, relatively speaking. What's so hard to fix about that?
They could keep the new smaller frame and use the older slide/recoil mechanism assembly is what I think you actually mean. Yeah, I would have purchased that combo, too. :)
The new frame, as it exists, and the gen 3 slides are incompatible. They would need a whole new frame mold to incorporate the new grip size, texture, mag release into a gun featuring the proven upper.
Glock is evidently showing that it is hard for them at least - judging by the plethora of spring iterations.....
And for the record, I am a huge fan of the Gen 3 9mm's. Just bitter that they could mess up something like that....
Geez people, Glock pistols have been around since when, late 70's technically? They will sort it out. There have been a ton of changes made to them over the years. Glock has not been "Perfection" up until the Gen 4's came out. My gen 4 has been running smooth so far with a 03 spring. Last outing I put some really crappy 115 gr ammo through it and I did get one stove pipe but I'm not worried yet.
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The new frame, as it exists, and the gen 3 slides are incompatible. They would need a whole new frame mold to incorporate the new grip size, texture, mag release into a gun featuring the proven upper.
Glock is evidently showing that it is hard for them at least - judging by the plethora of spring iterations.....
And for the record, I am a huge fan of the Gen 3 9mm's. Just bitter that they could mess up something like that....
I am aware that they are incompatible. My point was that with the smaller frame I was "on board" whether or not they had a captured, dual recoil spring or not.
In an engineering environment there are several proposed fixes with a risk assessment, modeling and testing support. The potential solutions are USUALLY implemented with a strong weighting factor Cost and/or Time to Implement vs. Functional Improvement. The issues are more than likely fully understood.
My concerns with the design is the reports of "erratic or weak ejection". The recoil spring will break in with usage.
crowkiller
11-25-10, 22:54
Since mine runs flawlessly, I don't care what he thinks.
Perhaps we should be more self-discriminating and less quick to listen to "gospel"?
be wise to heed LAV's advice.
LAV's words hold a lot clout and for good reason. I care what he thinks and appreciate his advice.
Since mine runs flawlessly, I don't care what he thinks.
Perhaps we should be more self-discriminating and less quick to listen to "gospel"?
I'm very happy yours works. Since I don't have one and Larry recommended that I not get one, that's enough for me.
Is this in reference to 9mm Glocks or all Gen 4 guns?
I asked him specifically about the 9mm. I didn't ask about the .40 but the reports on the .40 seem much better than the 9mm. I think I would take my chances on buying a .40 since the majority of them I've heard about seem to run.
My point was that with the smaller frame I was "on board"
I was jokingly referring to this as Gen 5 in another post I previously made! :)
From an engineering perspective this whole thing is a confirmation that it is better to have it right out of the gate than to have to pick up the pieces afterward.
Reliable enough isn't the same as reliable as it can be or used to be. And that just might be the fate of the Gen4 G17.
John_Wayne777
11-26-10, 11:43
Since mine runs flawlessly, I don't care what he thinks.
Perhaps we should be more self-discriminating and less quick to listen to "gospel"?
You don't have to take Mr. Vickers' advice, but please refrain from taking a shit all over it in public.
One or more people at Glock really deserve to be fired, there's really no excuse.
That said, if you're willing to spend an additional $30 for a glockmeister replacement recoil spring assembly for the 9mm glocks, you seem to end up with gen 3 reliability with the gen 4 grip.
I own multiple gen 2 and gen 3 glocks, but since I have small hands I wanted to try the gen 4 grip. I ordered the glockmeister 17lb recoil assembly before I bought my gen 4 glock 17, then when Cabela's got some newly manufactured 17's with the latest 021 spring assembly I picked one up. I put the stock 021 spring in the spare parts box and installed the glockmeister spring. I've only got 400 rounds through it so far, but zero problems with my light reloads as well as hotter ammo like a box of gold dot 124 +p. Yeah, Glock screwed up badly, but the issue seems to be easy to fix if you really want the gen 4 grip and don't mind spending a few more bucks for an aftermarket spring assembly. From reading the various gen 4 threads, the recoil spring assembly seems to be the only big issue.
One or more people at Glock really deserve to be fired, there's really no excuse.
That said, if you're willing to spend an additional $30 for a glockmeister replacement recoil spring assembly for the 9mm glocks, you seem to end up with gen 3 reliability with the gen 4 grip.
I own multiple gen 2 and gen 3 glocks, but since I have small hands I wanted to try the gen 4 grip. I ordered the glockmeister 17lb recoil assembly before I bought my gen 4 glock 17, then when Cabela's got some newly manufactured 17's with the latest 021 spring assembly I picked one up. I put the stock 021 spring in the spare parts box and installed the glockmeister spring. I've only got 400 rounds through it so far, but zero problems with my light reloads as well as hotter ammo like a box of gold dot 124 +p. Yeah, Glock screwed up badly, but the issue seems to be easy to fix if you really want the gen 4 grip and don't mind spending a few more bucks for an aftermarket spring assembly. From reading the various gen 4 threads, the recoil spring assembly seems to be the only big issue.
Yeah, that's my take, too.
Alpha Sierra
11-26-10, 15:12
the issue seems to be easy to fix if you really want the gen 4 grip and don't mind spending a few more bucks for an aftermarket spring assembly.
But then that's not as much fun as cluttering the internet with more complaints about Glock, engaging in more hero worship, and alluding to having inside information.
But then that's not as much fun as cluttering the internet with more complaints about Glock, engaging in more hero worship, and alluding to having inside information.
Are you always this cranky?
You do realize that most of the people who've said to stay away from the 4th Gen guns are already Glock owners, right?
If you call listening to respected SME's "hero worship", why do you partipate in online discussions if it isn't to glean some advice from people with more experience than yourself?
As for "alluding to inside information", I presume you're talking about me. Go to a gunstore in a couple weeks, and check and see how their 17's are configured (post PUN prefix). Let us know what you see.
I guess you just like being argumentative with people who've seen the Gen 4's tank, though. Sorry our experience differs from yours.
But then that's not as much fun as cluttering the internet with more complaints about Glock, engaging in more hero worship, and alluding to having inside information.
:rolleyes:
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