View Full Version : I'd like some experienced opinions.
Hey guys, I need some help. I inherited this Rem 700 30-06 w/ iron sights and factory plastic stock from my dad when he passed, among many other guns. I put a Nikon 4.5-14x42 scope on it and took the irons off, added a bipod, did my own trigger adjustments, and free floated the barrel. I've put most of the rounds through it, guessing maybe around 300-400 rounds though it total. It's a great rifle and pretty darn accurate but after about 4 rounds about 10 seconds apart, the group starts opening up horribly, I think due to the smaller diameter barrel heating up. First 2-3 rounds group fine at about .8 inches @ 100 yds prone with bipod but after that, I can't seem to get it to group less than 2-3 inches. Firing from a supported bench w/ sandbags doesn't seem to make a difference. I know a rifle like this isn't meant to be fired round after round but I'm almost thinking about trading it or selling it and getting either an AR-10 or another Rem 700 chambered in .308 so I can get the bull barrel. Or should I just get an aftermarket barrel in 30-06 that's a bull barrel? Any other ideas why the group starts opening up after the 4-ish round? I really want a more "tactical" rifle that I can fire several rounds and still sustain a decent group but I hate to get rid of this rifle. Any thoughts are appreciated.
FromMyColdDeadHand
11-22-10, 00:56
Is the barrel still free-floated after 4 or so rounds? Was wondering if the heat was allowing the plastic stock to bend a bit and come in contact with barrel. Cools off and goes back to free float. Read a review of some stock Rem700 stock that would do this.
You may have a couple things in play. The first is it appears your barrel warps when it gets warm. This could make contact with the barrel or not, but if the barrel warps it will still shift your POI. The plastic stock also may be flexing when you apply pressure with your bipod, but if you can shoot groups and allow the barrel to cool then this likely isn't it.
Honestly, it sounds like the barrel just moves when it warms up. Match barrels get around this by stress relieving their barrels. Sounds like you've still got a great serviceable weapon though.
Hey thanks guys. It very well may be the fact that the hotter barrel expands enough to make contact with the stock, thereby shifting POI. I'll look into that this week when I go to the range. By the way, this rifle is all factory except for the aforementioned mods I did myself. I asked a local pawn shop owner and he says that some rifles actually shoot more consistently when they have some contact with the stock so I might try that too. I'm gonna play around a little with it and see if I can work out the kinks. I appreciate the advice!
After you make sure your stock is fully floated, you may want to look into bedding the stock you have, or buying a more tactical style stock and having that bedded as well.
I would try to eliminate the stock as the issue.
If you want a top of the line stock with adjustable length of pull and comb hight get a Accuracy international stock. You dont have to bed it or do anything else to it, just drop in the action and you're done.
Late if you decide to get rid of your current rifle you might be able to use the same stock to put a Rem 700 action into it. You might want to ask about that before you get the stock. If it will fit you're well on your way to getting that "tactical rifle you want"
You can contact the guys at GA Precision and pick their brains. they are at the top of the custom business and can answer any questions or issues you might have.
R.
FromMyColdDeadHand
11-24-10, 03:42
I would try to eliminate the stock as the issue.
If you want a top of the line stock with adjustable length of pull and comb hight get a Accuracy international stock. You dont have to bed it or do anything else to it, just drop in the action and you're done.
Late if you decide to get rid of your current rifle you might be able to use the same stock to put a Rem 700 action into it. You might want to ask about that before you get the stock. If it will fit you're well on your way to getting that "tactical rifle you want"
You can contact the guys at GA Precision and pick their brains. they are at the top of the custom business and can answer any questions or issues you might have.
R.
I like that idea, just he'll have to get a LA stock for the 30-06. Nothing wrong with that, but if he decides to go to a new rifle, I would assume he would go with a SA round like 308 or 260Rem.
My comment about heating and bending was more aimed at the barrel emitting heat to the plastic stock, reducing its rigidity and allowing it to warp. The warping might only be apparent when you are in position, especially if you are using a sling or putting a load on the bipod.
If nothing else, you have a really nice hunting rifle ;)
eightmillimeter
12-08-10, 02:03
In my experience I have seen many "hunting" weight barrels that did not shoot well after fully free floating. About 3lbs of upward pressure 2-3" from the end of the forearm on the barrel always worked very well to keep things stable. The way to do that is to vise the gun upside down and hang a bucket with 3 lbs of weight in it on the barrel while bedding... and use some clay to keep the bedding gel contained to about one inch of contact with the barrel... as you only want the bedding material to be in contact in that one spot and not the length of the barrel.
In my experience I have seen many "hunting" weight barrels that did not shoot well after fully free floating. About 3lbs of upward pressure 2-3" from the end of the forearm on the barrel always worked very well to keep things stable. The way to do that is to vise the gun upside down and hang a bucket with 3 lbs of weight in it on the barrel while bedding... and use some clay to keep the bedding gel contained to about one inch of contact with the barrel... as you only want the bedding material to be in contact in that one spot and not the length of the barrel.
+ 1. Free floating is not always the answer. At times, pressure bedding makes a huge difference, especially with lighter profile barrels. Years ago, hunters would sometimes place a business card between the stock and barrel 2" to 3" from the front of the stock, then retorque the stock screws.
Four rounds of 30-06 through a Rem. 700 barrel is not enough to do anything other than let the barrel expand just enough (.001 to .003") to touch your stock and push the groups (suprised it happens after only 4). Barrel twist or flop takes a lot of heat to rear its head. Can you get a business card (cut a ribbon off length ways, about a half " wide. A ribbon of paper or a dollar bill is not thick enough with a bipod) all the way to the receiver after 4 or 5 shots with your gun in the position you shoot in? You will need a friend to help with this. If you cannot, this is the first thing I would correct. Also check out some barrel twist/vibration dampners on line. These help if you shoot a lot with a hunting barrel. Remington does the cheap stock thing so guys like me can afford to buy the 700, but the problems with the stocks (should you keep yours) are fixable, easily. Bedding the receiver after you have good clearance will help some, but it is a hassle to bed a plastic stock, and not everything will stick to the plastic. Hunting barrels are not really designed to be range barrels.
By the way, how much did your dad shoot this rifle? It takes a long time to shoot out a hunting barrel, but it is not uncommon. If he was an avid hunter/shooter, this could cause your group expansion. Don't get rid of it, though, if you don't have to. The little bit of money you get for it will not be able to make up for the "I wish I would have kept it." If you want to shoot a lot, buying new is definitely an option.
Being under 1 MOA with a 30/06 means that you’re working with a barrel that’s at least decent. I’d look at four other things before I changed it.
Technique
How does this rifle group when you fire one shot per minute or one shot every five minutes? This is a better baseline, and it will give you a break from the recoil. One shot every ten seconds from a benched 30/06 is a pretty serious pounding.
Is the bore clean? I mean really clean? Get after it with Sweet’s 7.62 Solvent and make sure it’s spotless. Fouling can build up over time, so take it down to bare metal.
Do other people get the same results? Have some other shooters try it. If they do better, learn their technique. If they don’t, try not to brag.
How does it shoot at 200 and 300 yards? Some rifles shoot better at longer range, so test it there. This will be tough in that brutal Oklahoma wind, so test at dawn and dusk when it lets up a little.
What power is your scope on? Set it to no more than 10x. Higher magnification can increase the apparent effect of heat waves coming off of your barrel.
Ammo
What load are you using? 55 grains of 4350 under a good 180-grain bullet is the classic 30/06 accuracy load. So is 57 grains under a good 168-grain bullet. Sierra Match Kings are cheap and common, and it wouldn’t hurt to try Bergers. Lake City Match is a good baseline but there isn’t much left in 30/06. Also try Federal Gold Medal Match.
Gunsmithing
Even if you’ve got a decent barrel, you’ve still got an untuned action in a flexible stock, and a few tweaks can help you get past that.
You can get the most out of the factory barrel by setting it back a thread, recutting the chamber to match dimensions, and recutting the crown. If all else fails, consider cutting it from its current length (22?) to 20” or even 18”. I’ve had other 30/06’s really tighten up after making them into snubnoses. The muzzle blast can be seen and heard from outer space, but they’re accurate.
While the barrel is off the gun, have your riflemaker true the face of the action, then square and lap the locking lugs. He may also recommend pinning the recoil lug. I’d also upgrade the scope mount screws from 6-32 to 8-32. When he redrills the holes, he should make sure they’re properly aligned so they don’t torque your mounts.
Glass bedding the action is probably wasted on a factory Tupperware stock. I have two superbly accurate rifles in Borden stocks (http://www.bordenrifles.com/stocks.shtml). Macmillan makes good ones, and they offer a wider range of choices.
If these things don’t give you the groups you want, you’ll have an extremely nice hunting rifle capable of taking anything in North America. The barrel work should cost ~$150 and you’ll lose it if you rebarrel. But the rest of the work is an investment that will optimize your action no matter what barrel you end up with.
Upgraded Parts
Trigger: Consider a match trigger like a Jewel.
Rings & bases: Use Weavers on your deer rifles. I don’t know which exact rings and bases are best for your needs, but I do know that there are a bunch of better choices than what you’re using now. I’d start with one-piece steel bases, for one thing. Some guys pin them to the action.
Optics: A fixed 6x Leupold hunting scope is probably better than a Nikon variable, but I’m a huge Leupold fan because of their customer service. If you can’t afford a Leupold M4, consider a used M1 or M3.
If upgrading these parts doesn’t work, you can always use them other rifles.
Anyway, I hope all of this helps you make your Dad’s rifle shoot the way you want. Good luck, and keep us posted.
Okie John
PS Where are you in Oklahoma?
Alpha Sierra
12-08-10, 12:11
I have no idea how hot a barrel gets after four shots, but let's assume that there is a .002" gap between the barrel shank (the thickest part of the barrel) and the stock. Let's also assume a sporter profile barrel has a 1" shank.
Steel's coefficient of thermal expansion is 6.45 x10-6 in-in-deg F. That means than a 1" long (or 1" dia) piece of steel will grow linearly (or diametrally) 6.45x10-6 inches for every degree F of temperature increase.
Sooooo, to fill up a .002" gap, the shank would have to grow .004" diametrally.
Running the numbers, I get a temperature rise of 310 deg F. So if your rifle is all nice and normalized at room temp of 70 deg, it will have to heat up to 380 deg before the .002" gap goes away.
Does that sound to you all as a temperature achievable in four or five rounds, shot as fast as you can possibly work the bolt?
Just bringing some engineering into the discussion..........
Alpha Sierra
12-09-10, 16:25
Okie John posted some great advice.
After thinking this over, I've come to the conclusion that there are three highly likely causes for deteriorating accuracy. I don't think they can be ranked in order of importance, and each one contributes some to your problems, so all have to be dealt with.
1) You have an extremely flimsy injection molded plastic stock that simply will NOT provide a consistent interface with the action and cannot be relied to help the action bolts hold a constant clamping force. Injection molded stocks simply suck if you expect any consistency in your rifle. You must replace it with a properly bedded (epoxy skim and steel pillars) hand-laid fiberglass or resin-impregnated laminated wood stock. Period.
2) You have a cheap, mass produced barrel which I doubt has had any kind of stress-relief operations done to it. As I previously posted, unless you are torching your barrel, your barrel is not expanding enough to touch the stock. I bet that it is, however, bending as it warms up in response to internal stresses left in the steels intergranular structure. Your only fix here is to rebarrel. The barrel you have is most likely a tomato stake.
3) Your skill. I don't know your skill level, but I am willing to bet that you are taking a pounding and flinching on the trigger after a certain point of cumulative recoil. That is a fairly light rifle shooting a powerful cartridge. On top of that, shooting off a bipod does not pull the rifle into the shoulder like a shooting sling does and the pounding you get is magnified.
You asked, there you go.
Try 168gn match bullets. Also shoot if after a few fouling shots.
You should get around 1 1/4" inch groups from the typical hunting rifle.
Remember, shoot slow to keep your barrel about the same temp.
I've found your shooting position plus the bench / rest combos must be constant to get good groups.
If you pressure bed your barrel the point of impact will change when you rest the forearm on almost anything with little give. This cuts out bipod use. It may be more accurate under identical conditions with pressure bedding, but the zero will change with bipod or sling.
Free floating must be with a large gap between barrel and stock. If you lay the rifle on its side in the sun, the stock will expand on the sun side and warp to contact the barrel if the gap is not large enough. In addition to the large gap, it is also productive to vent the forearm to allow air to circulate. Otherwise, what happens is that the lower half of the barrel heats up faster than the top, and the top cools faster than the bottom, giving some warp to the barrel. The result is that a warmer barrel tends to shoot high at the very least, and if it heats and cools unevenly the zero will wander.
These factors are just basic mechanics for the rifle. Some other factors are cheek weld and, since the 30-06 has significant recoil, consistency of hold.
Ditch the crap stock and keep deer old dads rifle. I would look at a wood BDL stock and glass bed it. If a Mcmillian. Or a Manners. But I will never sell a inheareted gun. You could just pick up a remngton SPS tactical and go from there, but they got a junk stock too.
It's a bedding issue barrel touching etc. I would look for a used H-S precision stock or buy a B&C medalist stock. Both have bedding blocks. If it still doesn't shoot, sell it and the stocks and go again. The Sierra 175s will tell the tale. Sierra MK 190s for sure. :D
Most people I know throw the sps stocks in the backyard for the dog to chew on. Those wooden stocked ADLs were the good ole days.
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