View Full Version : Reliability: Is the AR10 there yet?
So are the AR10 and other .308 AR variants almost as reliable as their 5.56 brothers yet?
What things need to be done to them to improve reliablity?
My experience has always been magazine issues with the Armalites. Rumor has it they are working on a new magazine to solve some of these problems. With the sunset of the AWB they won't have to rely on modified M14 mags anymore.
I thought that there new mags were available already... Or are they working on another design?
I thought that there new mags were available already... Or are they working on another design?
You may be right. I haven't kept up with it of late.
I believe that it depends on who you talk to.
Lots of people are operating under the once burned theory, and still quoting their experiences with early ArmaLite AR-10B's. From circa 1996 or so.
That was a decade ago.
However, there are still lots of those uppers, lowers, bolts and mags floating around -- from dealer to dealer -- and user to user.
I'd have to say that, from my experience, they are as reliable as the 5.56 smaller cousins.
I've actually had about 3 more 5.56 rifles than I have had AR-10 rifles and in that time I've had 3 more 5.56 uppers be complete duds.
On my 8th or 10th AR-10 now, sold off most of them to make room for M16's, but only one needed a return trip to Geneseo, IL for TLC.
When it came back, after 3 weeks, it was a perfect specimen. That was around 2000.
The ArmaLite SASS adjustable gas system looks extremely promising as many users state the guns are over gassed.
They are certainly worth the time and money, IMO.
I'd really like a clone of the original Dutch manufactured AR-10, preferrably the Portugese model but I could live with the Sudanese style, just wish they didn't have the brass deflector.
Shivan, have you heard if they're going to develop their own mag system rather than base it on the M14?
Shivan, have you heard if they're going to develop their own mag system rather than base it on the M14?
ArmaLite's mags are in production, and as far as I can tell shipping out to fill previous orders. I have two of the new ones on my bench. :cool:
The new mags are very nice.
No more plunger on the back of the follower for the bolt hold open, which makes loading far easier. I suspect it also deletes tension on the back of the follower that makes, or could make, the follower bind during its cycle.
The function of test mag 1 and 10 were superb. I fired ~160rds through both mags and had only one problem unrelated to the mags -- IIRC it was a full primer strike with no detonation of the round. Or some such ammo related SNAFU.
I think the price is still a little high at $44 MSRP, but they should be commended and paid for the R&D they put in with the new mags. I suspect the street price will settle around $39-$40/mag, which is reasonable in my estimation.
HTH...
ArmaLite has a bunch of the new mags for sale at Camp Perry right now. They look nice, but all my old style mags work just fine.
I have never had good luck with the AR10T's Majority are mag issues --I've found for a "working gun" go Mk11 (and suck up the $) -- but even them they are not a 5.56mm reliable system.
I hope so.
Gonna try mine out tomorrow. :D
SHIVAN since you are the AR10 guru, (I have an AR-A4) any ammo that you recommend/stay away?
Thanks
Eric (new to the .308 thing)
I have been using Port Surplus for some time with good effect.
I would stay away from Indian and South African.
Lots of folks have had good luck with the South African 7.62NATO, but the batch I have has VERY hard or dead primers in about 10 of every 100rds.
One session had me pulling 15 FULLY struck rounds from the chamber.
For accuracy: Black Hills 175gr match is wonderful.
I have been using Port Surplus for some time with good effect.
I would stay away from Indian and South African.
Lots of folks have had good luck with the South African 7.62NATO, but the batch I have has VERY hard or dead primers in about 10 of every 100rds.
One session had me pulling 15 FULLY struck rounds from the chamber.
For accuracy: Black Hills 175gr match is wonderful.
Go figure, being that I bought a 140rd pack at Bernie's today.
I'll post a report when I get back from the range.
Thanks for the input, I'll look for the BH next time I go.
South African could end up being nice for you, personal preference only because it is giving me a tough time.
Indian is apparently flat out dangerous.
K.L. Davis
08-13-06, 00:11
I am probably not shedding new light on this for most of you... but when you have a weapon with a magwell set for feed angle "A" and you modify a magazine from a rifle that used feed angle "B" -- well, you can do the math.
Just got back from the range (NRA).
Fired 60 rounds:
20 Black Hills 168gr Match
20 Federal WB
20 South Afr. Surplus.
Flawless function. Although it is a flattop it has iron sights on it, and took a while to zero it (albeit at 50yds).
Only complaint is that the trigger sucks IMO, so I'll be looking to change it.
All in all, I'm very happy with it.
I am probably not shedding new light on this for most of you... but when you have a weapon with a magwell set for feed angle "A" and you modify a magazine from a rifle that used feed angle "B" -- well, you can do the math.
With that said, since Knights and DPMS use the original AR10 pattern for their mags, do they represent a feeding system with correct geometry?
Has anyone seen the new Armalite mags?
Has anyone seen the new Armalite mags?
I have two in my possession. I believe they are filling all orders currently.
They operate much smoother than any of my normally reliable M14 conversion pieces from the "ban days".
I also like that the plunger is gone, it makes the first three rounds loading MUCH easier.
In my estimation the lack of the plunger also removes forward tension from the rear. Meaning there is no longer a source of pressure that facilitates nose-diving.
They worked for me in a very limited testing environment, and with a proven weapon.
Can you post some pictures?
GenII on the left in all pictures.
http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?sAccountUnq=1791&iGalleryUnq=1429&iImageUnq=47695
http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?sAccountUnq=1791&iGalleryUnq=1429&iImageUnq=47696
http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?sAccountUnq=1791&iGalleryUnq=1429&iImageUnq=47697
http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?sAccountUnq=1791&iGalleryUnq=1429&iImageUnq=47698
http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?sAccountUnq=1791&iGalleryUnq=1429&iImageUnq=47699
persona non grata
08-15-06, 01:58
The new ArmaLite mags are more user friendly, but I've never had reliability problems with any FACTORY ArmaLite AR10 mag.
I believe that a propery maintained (lubed) AR10 with good ammo and mags can hold its own against an AR15. Much of the 'legacy' of AR10 problems can be traced to bubba-built mags, and WECSOG-work.
I agree with Shivan - Buy all the .308 Port you can find (if you can find any).
We actually got to mess with all the submitted SAS rifles and decided to come up with our own.
Using a DPMS LR .308 (The one with the forward assist that Rem used which was on the property books from I don't know when) we took parts from all three guns (Armalite, KAC and Rem). This is what our build sheet consisted of:
1. DPMS LR .308 Receiver
2. Magpul Stock
3. Daniel Defense 12.0 Lite Rail
4. Kriger 1/10 20" BBL
5. Accuracy Speaks Trigger
6. Leupold M2 3.5-10x40mm TMR w/ illum reticle
7. ARMS #22 Medium Rings
8. OPS Inc. .30 cal 12th Model MBS
9. Armalite SASS Adjustable gas system
10. KAC Front and rear sights
11. GG&G Heavy Bipods.
During the build we had to mill the DD Rail System to fit the Armalite SASS Gas system but it was not much of a problem. We already had data on the Adjustable gas system settings for unsuppressed fire so all we had to do is strap on the can and work out a couple of issues. The gun is VERY capable using M118LR (AMU Loads) and is shooting aroud 1/2 moa. I however don't think that it will replace a good bolt gun anytime in the future.
Just got back from the range (NRA).
Fired 60 rounds:
Flawless function.
Im glad you're pleased, sincerely.
However, THAT is exactly the type of report I get out of "happy" AR10 owners, and it proves absolutely nothing in terms of depend-your-life-on reliability.
FWIW -- no 7.62mm Gas gun I know of works well.
IMHO (dislaimer being the local KAC cheerleader) I have been very impressed with the KAC Mk11 series guns I have shot.
My expeirences with Armalite and DPMS have been dismal.
Armalite in 24, 20 and 16" guns where ok in the accuracy dept but took a dump in the reliability dept -- (I'm talking a fair bit of shooting -- i.e. 1k of rounds in a less than a week -- which is nothing to a 5.56mm gun -- but the 7.62mm carbines :mad: ...)
DPMS barrel nuts are like peanut brittle - and we cracked four trying to replace the craptastic tube they came with with KAC FF RAS's for the SR25/Mk11.
Once we got them off it worked okay -- the KAC mags being the biggest plus.
I like (love) KAC -- but in the world of 7.62mm gas guns - I am very curious to see the Hk417 -- I am trying to add 4 of them to our Hk416 order.
I owned a JP AR10 for over a year. I have friends with AR10's. I have seen probably 20-30 more of them at national- and local-level 3Gun matches over the last 4 years (trying to either shoot Major PF or He-Man / Heavy Metal division).
My own rough estimate is that 80-90% of them have taken a major dump during the matches, rendering them either unable to cycle, consistently jamming, or catastrophically failing. I know of precisely "two" AR-10's which run consistently provided good ammo.
My experience with my own AR10 and some friends' AR10's is that they tend to be ammunition sensitive with regard to both function and even moreso accuracy. Of all the factory 150-175gr ammo, mine would "only" group under 1" with 168gr FGMM.
The other thing I don't like about the AR10 is the huge reciprocating mass necessitated by the design. It's got to be 3-4x the weight of the recip mass in the AR15. All that slamming around does not help with sight picture reacquisition, or spotting one's own hits. In comparison, an M14 with its light bolt doesn't move at all.
I am looking forward to the SCAR-H as a viable modern 308 platform...
Alpha Sierra
12-08-06, 11:37
Some experience from the non-tactical side of things.
Back in the 1997 - 1999 time frame, David Tubb tried to make the SR-25 in 6.5-08 work as a NRA Match Rifle. He had untold problems with broken parts of all sorts. It took several modifications to get it all to work. He finally won the National Championship with it on his third attempt in 1999. He decided that the gun was never going to be as accurate and as reliable as his bolt guns, so he ditched it and went back to the Model 70s he had so much success with.
Tubb did like the AR-15-like ergonomics so much that he incorporated them in his own-design bolt gun. While the TUBB2000 looks like an AR-10 turned into a bolt gun, it is not. It does not share the upper/lower receiver design of the AR series and the bolt design is completely different.
Target version:
http://www.mcmillanrifles.com/T2000C-SIGHT.jpg
Tactical version:
http://www.mcmillanrifles.com/TUBB2000T.jpg
FWIW -- no 7.62mm Gas gun I know of works well.
Yeah we had jams every 500 rds (suppressed) but was rectified by cleaning the chamber. Not bad considering it is a "Precision" weapon. I think it would have to be "Zulu dawn" to have to fire that much from a Sniper Rifle (Experiance coming from my 4 tours in said role). Without the can it was all energizer bunny. The stoppages with the can were consistant with the official tests.
az_gun_nut
01-30-07, 14:21
The other thing I don't like about the AR10 is the huge reciprocating mass necessitated by the design. It's got to be 3-4x the weight of the recip mass in the AR15. All that slamming around does not help with sight picture reacquisition, or spotting one's own hits. In comparison, an M14 with its light bolt doesn't move at all.
I am looking forward to the SCAR-H as a viable modern 308 platform...
I think you forgot about that operating rod that is attached to that light bolt. Figure in ALL that mass and you are no lighter than an AR10.
I've shot M14's in full and semi auto and fullauto G3's. The G3 handled better than the M14's by far, Heavier weapon, heavier bolt mass and could be held on target and a full mag dumped, can't say the same with the lighter M14.
My buddies Armalite AR10T runs great on South African, but then again I've yet to come across one bad round in the couple thousand I've shot of SA as well.
The only issue we had with his Armalite was a loose gas key. Cleaned and reinstalled, retorqued and restaked and it's been running great.
The M14 has far less reciprocating mass than the AR-10, and it is evident by observing the various inertia events during recoil.
az_gun_nut
01-30-07, 16:46
The M14 has far less reciprocating mass than the AR-10, and it is evident by observing the various inertia events during recoil.
Please be more specific, what inertia events and how do they affect felt recoil and being able to get back on target quicker or slower?
In my humble experience I've shot both and although I love the M14, (might be that Marine corp grunt image) but I would choose a well set up AR10 first. A decent muzzle brake will tame any muzzle jump, the right combination of buffer weight and gas port size will tame the hard "slamming" recoil as some call it.
Just my. 02 worth.
I have run and seen run all combinations of gas port tuning in the AR-10. There is no getting around that heavy bolt carrier group (and to a lesser extent the buffer) moving around, and it has a long throw.
To stay on target all other things equal (rifle weight and muzzle device), one wants less reciprocating mass and for the action events to be over sooner.
The AR-10 BCG+buffer must travel all that way to the rear, slam into the receiver extension, and then go forward and slam into battery. If you slow it down with less gas pressure, the now the whole operation takes longer. Just like in a pistol, when you increase recoil spring weight you slow down the action and as it moves rearward, the weapon tends to torque nose up. In other words, adding mass just makes it worse.
Contrast that to a low-mass setup with fast cycle speed which has less time to act on the weapon's position (as observed in sight picture movement).
This is also seen in AR-15s, where it's well known by the 3Gun guys that to get less sight picture movement and faster follow-up shots, you reduce the BCG mass to decrease cycle time and decrease inertia transfer.
but I would choose a well set up AR10 first.
An AR10 is NOT as reliable as the M14. I have never even heard of an AR10 going through any kind of training and not going tits up.
Mace
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