View Full Version : Strange issue with M&P 9mm today at the range.
Today at the range my pistol failed to lock the slide back after the last round when using all 5 of the magazines I brought with me. This occurred roughly 1/3 of the time for each mag.
The magazines all have fewer than 200 rounds through them so I doubt they are the issue.
The pistol has had around 400 rounds since its last cleaning but has sat for around 3 months with no additional lube. Could it be due to a dry gun and cold weather (around 30 degrees)? Ammo used was WWB and I experienced no failures to eject.
Any thoughts?
My guess would be weak ammo. Try different ammo in those same mags and I'll bet it locks the slide back. WWB has been known to be on the weak side.
Beat Trash
11-24-10, 12:40
Also check to ensure none of your fingers are near the slide release when you grip the pistol.
You may very well be limp-wristing.
Any other guns ever do this to you before?
It is very possible that my grip was affected by the cold. This was towards the end of a long range session and I was without gloves. Ill pay particular attention to it next time and report back if the problem persists. Thanks for the help.
Like the others have said, weak ammo or limp wristing.
I carry an M&P on duty and when I shoot at the range I frequently have my long thumbs over the slide stop and hold it down unintentially. My hands do it on Glock's too. My suggestion is grip though it could be other causes.
I'd recommend lubrication as being more necessary that a rock solid grip. Lube it up, shoot the same ammo, and see what you get.
Happened rather often with mine, too. It's always been because I've got my thumb over the slide release. It takes some work on your grip and a lot of dry reps, but I eventually got it right. It's a very rare occurrence now.
My guess would be weak ammo. Try different ammo in those same mags and I'll bet it locks the slide back. WWB has been known to be on the weak side.
On the contrary, WWB is one of the most consistant factory ammos out there. I use it for 50 yd bulls eye when I don't reload. Groups are very consistant for factory. I have five different makes of 9mm and it is flawless in all of them.
Does not sound like a limp wrist, or you would be having trouble other than just the last round, unless you have that unmeasurable limpness that will let the slide cycle, but not lock after the last round.
Sounds like a digit is hitting the slide release while shooting or your mag followers have some kind of dings or burrs on them, or there is residue where the follower tops out.
I would go after grip first, followers second (clean inside mag with super light film of good oil) clean and lubed slide third, hotter ammo fourth.
Do one, two, and three and try same ammo before trying a hotter ammo.
As far as the quote, not saying you are wrong, you may have a pistol WWB does not work well in.
Also check to ensure none of your fingers are near the slide release when you grip the pistol.
This is most likely it.
C4
rather often with mine, too. It's always been because I've got my thumb over the slide release.
Not picking on this quote in particular because there's others in this thread too, but can we please start calling it what it is. It's a SLIDE STOP not a slide release. The proper method to release the slide is to grip it and pull it to the rear then release and let it slam home. Pet peeve of mine. Rant off.
Not picking on this quote in particular because there's others in this thread too, but can we please start calling it what it is. It's a SLIDE STOP not a slide release. The proper method to release the slide is to grip it and pull it to the rear then release and let it slam home. Pet peeve of mine. Rant off.
You'll love this thread then. :D
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=31694
I do this frquently on my glocks due to my thumbs riding high and bumping the slide release.
Not picking on this quote in particular because there's others in this thread too, but can we please start calling it what it is. It's a SLIDE STOP not a slide release. The proper method to release the slide is to grip it and pull it to the rear then release and let it slam home. Pet peeve of mine. Rant off.
I said it too, my friend. You are correct. My bad.
Not picking on this quote in particular because there's others in this thread too, but can we please start calling it what it is. It's a SLIDE STOP not a slide release. The proper method to release the slide is to grip it and pull it to the rear then release and let it slam home. Pet peeve of mine. Rant off.
You haven't taken a Vickers class, have you?
Not picking on this quote in particular because there's others in this thread too, but can we please start calling it what it is. It's a SLIDE STOP not a slide release. The proper method to release the slide is to grip it and pull it to the rear then release and let it slam home. Pet peeve of mine. Rant off.
Wow. 10 to 20 mile miss there.
Cease and desist the "happy/glad" nonsense.
If it described an actual, functional difference, it'd be worthwhile. As it's for nothing more than a self-admitted stone in someone's labia, it's an unrelated, needless derail. The stop on an M&P is to the rear, and the pad with serrations on both the upper and lower portions (that doesn't in any way touch the slide, BTW) is a piece that's forward of the stop.
When we gin up a thread that's titled "Strange issue with 'who/whom' usage on internet forums," go nuts. Hint: it won't be in the Handguns subforum....
As others have said, next time you shoot if it happens again, check where your thumbs are located. The slightest contact from a thumb/finger to the slide stop lever will cause it to fail to lock back on an empty magazine.
spamsammich
11-25-10, 05:15
what color are the followers on your magazines?
crazymoose
11-25-10, 05:23
Not picking on this quote in particular because there's others in this thread too, but can we please start calling it what it is. It's a SLIDE STOP not a slide release. The proper method to release the slide is to grip it and pull it to the rear then release and let it slam home. Pet peeve of mine. Rant off.
If this were the case, there would be no exterior portion, and it especially would not be textured to offer greater purchase. I like the overhand method, but if, for example, you're reloading with one hand, the slide release is nice to have.
As plenty of people here have already stated there is about a 99% probability that it is your grip that is causing the slide to fail to lock back. Look at your thumbs as well as your support hand position.
With regards to using the slide stop or not to release that comment was so juvenile it wasn't even worth of a response.
I dont think this is a problem with thumb. before I bought my mp9 I rented one and had the same problem..
then rented other mp9 in other range and didnt get the problem..and I dondt have this problem with mine.so the problem wasnt my thumb.
after the last round in the magazine,something push the slide release/block. is that working fine?
I had a similar problem with a rented glock 19, I thought it was my thumb that push the mag release but after pay attention there was a internal problem with the gun, the guy in the store fixed it after change a piece.
Not picking on this quote in particular because there's others in this thread too, but can we please start calling it what it is. It's a SLIDE STOP not a slide release. The proper method to release the slide is to grip it and pull it to the rear then release and let it slam home. Pet peeve of mine. Rant off.
That is incorrect. The proper way to release a slide is with the slide release.
The majority of all malfunctions we see in reliable HG's is because people NOT using the factory provided slide RELEASE.
Please take a Vickers Tactical basic HG class.
C4
I dont think this is a problem with thumb. before I bought my mp9 I rented one and had the same problem..
then rented other mp9 in other range and didnt get the problem..and I dondt have this problem with mine.so the problem wasnt my thumb.
after the last round in the magazine,something push the slide release/block. is that working fine?
I had a similar problem with a rented glock 19, I thought it was my thumb that push the mag release but after pay attention there was a internal problem with the gun, the guy in the store fixed it after change a piece.
It could be the gun, but I doubt it. Install the large back strap and shoot strong hand only.
C4
Alpha Sierra
11-29-10, 18:02
Not picking on this quote in particular because there's others in this thread too, but can we please start calling it what it is. It's a SLIDE STOP not a slide release. The proper method to release the slide is to grip it and pull it to the rear then release and let it slam home. Pet peeve of mine. Rant off.
Dude....seriously?
Lighten up. What anyone calls that lever and how anyone lets the slide go home is their business. NOT yours.
Get a life.
That is incorrect. The proper way to release a slide is with the slide release.
The majority of all malfunctions we see in reliable HG's is because people NOT using the factory provided slide RELEASE.
Please take a Vickers Tactical basic HG class.
C4
Interesting that Vickers says to use the slide release/stop. This is certainly not a universally prescribed practice. The instructors with whom I've trained (the primary of whom has a roughly equivalent background to Vickers), suggest to do as explained by cj5_dude. Like many things in shooting, it seems there are differences in opinion. Personally this seems to me a minor one and it's hard for me to imagine how *not* using the slide release would be a problem. But maybe I'm missing something obvious. What is the reasoning Vickers provides? I'm curious. I say that not as having a vested interest in one being right or wrong, more just to learn.
In terms of slide release vs slide stop, I do think it's something more than nomenclature. They tend to mean slightly different things. On something like a Glock, the piece is very small and is referred to within the Glock Operator manual as a slide stop. It's not really designed or intended to release the slide (as far as I can see). On an HK, however, typically the piece is larger and has a shelf of sorts and is actually intended to be used as a slide release (I'd assume it's referred to this way within the manual as well, but I'd have to go home and check).
None of this, of course, has anything to do with the original poster's question, but it's still interesting stuff.
I dont think this is a problem with thumb. before I bought my mp9 I rented one and had the same problem..
then rented other mp9 in other range and didnt get the problem..and I dondt have this problem with mine.so the problem wasnt my thumb.
after the last round in the magazine,something push the slide release/block. is that working fine?
I had a similar problem with a rented glock 19, I thought it was my thumb that push the mag release but after pay attention there was a internal problem with the gun, the guy in the store fixed it after change a piece.
It may have been that you just didnt notice that your thumb was making contact with the M&P you rented. This is a pretty common occurance when shooters who are used to a certain weapon platform inadvertantly ride the slide stop lever on a new platform that they are not familiar with. Same thing happened to me when switching from the Glock to the M&P. It took a very minor adjustment to my grip to stop it from happening to me. Now when I shoot a Glock the slide doesnt lock back on an empty mag. If I make a slight adjustment to my grip it stops.
John_Wayne777
11-29-10, 19:24
Like many things in shooting, it seems there are differences in opinion.
There certainly are...but perhaps it would be instructive to read what Kyle Defoor (one of the SME's we're proud to have here at M4C) said about using the slide release:
Firstly, I do not use the slingshot method anymore. I switched over permanantly around summer of 2005. The reason is fourfold.
Number one- I now grip all handguns with my strong hand thumb laid over on my support hand, just a smidge. This is mainly for Sigs, as the release lever is so far to the rear. I keep it the same on all pistols so that I always get slide lock. We have to shoot different pistols sometimes weekly. Bottom line is its simpler, and faster.
Number two- I've measured the size of an average mag release button and an average slide release button. The slide release is at a minimum 3X bigger. I no longer buy the argument that you can hit the mag release, and then .005 seconds later you lose your mind and can't find the slide release. Doesn't hold water.
Number three- Around 2005, when I started shooting with Bill Go a lot getting ready for IDPA/IPSC type functions, I realized that my biggest weakness was emergency reloads. I simply could not keep up, even though I would be ahead on hits. I can?/could slingshot as fast as I think is possible just because of the fact that's what the Teams do, but, I can use the slide release and at a minimum its .65 sec faster.
Number four - As far as I know, John (Shaw) started this whole thing in the early eighties when the Teams started going there. All the old timers have told me that it was mainly because at that time we didn't spend a lot of time on pistols, flight gloves were the tightest glove around, and water/cold (remember, this is pre-9/11) on shipboardings were the biggest worry in regards to reloads. In comparision, Jerry (Barnhardt) would cringe when the training department at each Team, especially The Command, would ask him to teach it to us that way.
I equate this to bypassing the bolt release on an M4. Just not the best idea. We shoot/teach here more than most (96,000 rds for me last year) and see it all on a weekly basis, and I'm a firm beleiver in using the slide release now, no matter how you do it (support thumb on 1911, master thumb on others)
As far as what to teach, it depends on the weapon (1911's are different), and the desire, physical limitations and experience of the student. In the end, just like gear, simpler, less movement is going to rule.
Hope this helps,
Kyle
You can find this post in a previous 13 page thread on the topic:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=31694
The short version here is that a lot of people have developed SOP's based on using Glocks, or as Kyle mentions above based on situations which don't apply to everybody, and those SOP's are not necessarily advisable or preferable on other firearms.
Personally this seems to me a minor one and it's hard for me to imagine how *not* using the slide release would be a problem.
Try doing it on a Beretta 92FS sometime. When you accidentally engage the safety for the umpteenth time and find yourself trying to pull on a dead trigger...and remember that under life or death stress this is not necessarily something you'll figure out in a jiffy...then you'll probably realize that the guys who preach overhand for everything might not be as wise in terms of their weapon manipulation teaching as one might think.
In addition to that, I've seen even well-trained people on the range actually induce malfunctions in weapons by using the overhand method of releasing the slide from lock under the mild stress of an audience and a timer.
Interesting that Vickers says to use the slide release/stop. This is certainly not a universally prescribed practice. The instructors with whom I've trained (the primary of whom has a roughly equivalent background to Vickers), suggest to do as explained by cj5_dude. Like many things in shooting, it seems there are differences in opinion. Personally this seems to me a minor one and it's hard for me to imagine how *not* using the slide release would be a problem. But maybe I'm missing something obvious. What is the reasoning Vickers provides? I'm curious. I say that not as having a vested interest in one being right or wrong, more just to learn.
In terms of slide release vs slide stop, I do think it's something more than nomenclature. They tend to mean slightly different things. On something like a Glock, the piece is very small and is referred to within the Glock Operator manual as a slide stop. It's not really designed or intended to release the slide (as far as I can see). On an HK, however, typically the piece is larger and has a shelf of sorts and is actually intended to be used as a slide release (I'd assume it's referred to this way within the manual as well, but I'd have to go home and check).
None of this, of course, has anything to do with the original poster's question, but it's still interesting stuff.
Reasons for using slide release vs racking the slide
1. Faster (around .5 seconds, even with practise in both methods)
2. Less likely to induce a stoppage (you aren't going to short stroke the slide).
Not that there aren't valid reasons for racking the slide in some situations, like wearing thick gloves or having hard to use slide-releases without much purchase (factory Glock units for example). Or if a lefty with a gun that you can't get to the slide release fast.
Also, even with Glocks, ask yourself this, if the "slide-lock" wasn't meant to be used as a slide release, why are they all serrated such that they provide purchase when pushing down, not up?
Great! Thanks to both of you for the explanations. They were well reasoned and fairly compelling. That's why I come here, to learn.
Looks like most of the counter-arguments I'd bring up have already been made in the linked thread. I'll have to experiment a bit and think about it a bit more then make a decision for myself as to what's better (and if it really even matters much). I suspect it'll take some time. But thanks, I definitely learned something. I'll go read the rest of that thread (maybe some of the question/concerns I have are more fully addressed later on in it) and play with things a bit. Thanks!
Alpha Sierra
11-30-10, 04:11
F it. Not worth it.
Interesting that Vickers says to use the slide release/stop. This is certainly not a universally prescribed practice. The instructors with whom I've trained (the primary of whom has a roughly equivalent background to Vickers), suggest to do as explained by cj5_dude. Like many things in shooting, it seems there are differences in opinion. Personally this seems to me a minor one and it's hard for me to imagine how *not* using the slide release would be a problem. But maybe I'm missing something obvious. What is the reasoning Vickers provides? I'm curious. I say that not as having a vested interest in one being right or wrong, more just to learn.
In terms of slide release vs slide stop, I do think it's something more than nomenclature. They tend to mean slightly different things. On something like a Glock, the piece is very small and is referred to within the Glock Operator manual as a slide stop. It's not really designed or intended to release the slide (as far as I can see). On an HK, however, typically the piece is larger and has a shelf of sorts and is actually intended to be used as a slide release (I'd assume it's referred to this way within the manual as well, but I'd have to go home and check).
None of this, of course, has anything to do with the original poster's question, but it's still interesting stuff.
JW777's post answers your questions well so I won't add much.
One thing to remember about gun manufacturers is that the people that right manuals typically don't know much about shooting or have had formal training.
The over hand, sling shot method commonly used on the Glock is "OK", but is not nearly as efficient as using the provided slide release. If you put some thought into it, look where your left thumb ends up after a mag change. Right at the slide release. So you are going to ignore this, take your hand off the gun, come over top the slide, drive it to the rear (releasing it) and then re-acquire your grip? How much movement did you waste?
As I stated, most all malfunctions I have witnessed are from people racking the slide instead of using the slide release.
C4
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