View Full Version : More Red Dots On Handguns
Gabe Suarez
11-26-10, 19:31
http://www.onesourcetactical.com/images/products/detail/IMG_0650.1.jpg
I wanted to put up an update of sorts. I first saw the concept of a red dot on a CCW Pistol with Kelly McCann's Docter-equipped Glock. I didn't give the idea more than a passing glance until I began hearing from my older students about not being able to see their sights well enough and the truth that many of the aftermarket sights intended to solve that problem failed. Additionally, I turned fifty and noticed a slight difficulty in recognizing that sharp sight picture of yesteryear.
I did some research and in the end, hired my own gunsmithing staff to come up with viable installations. One Source Tactical - Technical Services Division has turned around so many Trijicon RMRs on Glocks this year that we are "best friends" at Trijicon.
http://www.onesourcetactical.com/images/products/detail/IMG_0869.jpg
Recently our staff was able to install the system on other popular pistol systems. Here is an FAQ of sorts on what I have found out...mostly by trial and error. And by that I mean buying a slide, and a red dot sight, and paying my staff to install it to see whether it is a workable system or not. Maybe you guys can save some money and headaches by reading this. I offer it in the spirit of helping others learn from our research.
LED vs. Dual Illumination – The dual illumination is only available from Trijicon. On which one is better, well that depends on where you will be using the sights. I have a colleague that is in Africa and his battery availability is slim so he opted for the Dual Illumination RMR Unit. Here in the USA, where you can buy batteries everywhere, I prefer the battery powered LED version. I find it is more consistent across varying light levels, and the battery life is about one year.
http://www.onesourcetactical.com/images/products/detail/IMG_1146.jpg
The importance of the suppressor sights - The suppressor sights do two things. One is they shorten the learning/training curve dramatically. Why? Because your eyes are accustomed to looking for the iron sights from years of dry and live work. Thus the eyes will pick up the suppressor sights immediately and coincidentally the red dot as well. We have seen this in our classes. Students running just the red dot require a greater learning curve opposed to those running red dots in conjunction with suppressor sights. Additionally, since anything man-made can fail, the suppressor sight provide a true co-witnessed backup system in the event the red dot fails.
http://www.onesourcetactical.com/images/fwdtsdsights.jpg
What size dot do you recommend - This is always a compromise. We played with the smaller sized dots and while they were fine on rifles, what seemed to work best with the handguns was 7 MOA or larger. The reason for this is on a rifle, you have two additional points of contact (shoulder and cheek) facilitating the uniform visual identification of the dot. On a handgun, you do not have that so a larger and easier to pick up dot works better for most people. A 7 MOA dot translates as a 7 inch group on target at 100 yards.
Maintenance and care – Virtually nothing. I carried one of our TSD Glocks in the field during inclement weather and while the unit got dusty and dirty, it worked fine. Maintenance is no different than you would use on the Aimpoint on your AR-15 or AK.
Commonly used holsters or way to carry – As long as your holster is cut down in front, as most tactical holsters are, your red dot equipped gun will fit. We can point you to specific holsters for the red dot equipped holsters as well. Rumor has it that a major synthetic holster maker has one of the RDS Glocks as a model for an injection molded holster to be brought out at SHOT....rumor only of course.
How durable – Well that depends on the unit chosen of course. On my personal guns I am running Trijicon RMR red dots. These are designed to be mounted on an M4 and dropped from shoulder height (onto the RMR) and retain zero. They are more than tough enough for mere pistol usage. While we will happily install Insights, Burris, J-Points, or Delta Points, these other sights may not be as robust as the Trijicon .
Why choose this over standard sights - The red dot system does for the handgun what it has been doing for the rifle for many years. It eliminates the need to keep rear sight, front sight, and target aligned, and the visual gymnastics that requires. As well the red dot allows you to index an very visible aiming point on any target you wish to hit under any lighting conditions from close range to as far as you can hold.
http://www.onesourcetactical.com/images/products/detail/IMG_0829.jpg
The advantages and disadvantages of Front / Rear BUIS location – My personal preference is to install the BUIS (back up iron sights) in the traditional locations on the pistol slide. The benefits to this are that the training/learning curve is considerably shortened. Now, as far as for our technicians, it is considerably harder work to install the system that way. The reason we do it that way is because it is a better system, easier to transfer over operationally from non-red dot sighted handguns and back again. The reason that the alternate installation (rear sight in front of the red dot sight) was invented was simply and purely to facilitate the job of the gunsmith.
How much Real Estate is needed to mount one – That depends on the red dot unit you want to install. Thus far we can do Springfield XD, Smith & Wesson M&P, FN handguns, Glocks of all sizes, 1911s, and we are working on the HK and SIG systems. We have discounted the Insights MRDS because it is simply too long to "do it right".
Any required changes to normal handgun operations – Not at all.
Why the RMR was selected over other available Red Dot sights - Again, I want to mention that we will install any red dot sight you would like on your pistol. But my preference based on research and testing is the Trijicon RMR. This is the best system available today, in my opinion, for a handgun and what I have in my holster.
For clarity I will post why I deselected some of the other sights for my personal use –
J-Point: They are polymer construction. They give a good clear dot and have a battery life of about a year. One issue is “waterproofness” . I was told that a little rain will not hurt the unit by the reps at the J-Point booth. Not very encouraging. The notch in the back is thought to be a back up sight. It is not and any coincidence between dot and irons is pure happenstance. Finally, it is now only available in 4 MOA. This may be easier to install on slides that have less real estate however. The glass is not as clear nor is it as strong as the RMR in my opinion and experience.
Leupold DeltaPoint: In my opinion, overly complicated. There is a 7.0 MOA triangle whose edges seemed indistinct to me, or a too-small 3.5 MOA dot. It has a wide easy to see through screen. And the small “footprint” might make it an easier marriage to a narrow slide. The adjustments on the stern side of the unit make a traditional BUIS installation more complicated.
Burris Fast Fire: What I don't like about this is the on - off switch. Gamesmen, whose pistols live in gun safes or in gun bags will love that feature but it is a potential death trap to a man whose gun lives in the holster. In testing we had these “on-off” switches get turned off inadvertently. If you opt for this unit, I strongly advise getting the traditional BUIS system.
Insight MRDS: They seemed less robust and more complicated than the Trijicon. The manual dot adjustment is not necessary on something to go on a pistol. For this application any on-off, or adjustment is ill-advised. It has a good feature of top loading battery, but the footprint requires more room on the slide. The battery life on them is not as good as on the Trijicon. Finally, it is excessively long to mount on most pistols with a BUIS.
What happens when the sight gets wet? Depending on the red dot unit. With a Trijicon – Nothing. We took the RMR equipped Glock and dunked it in a bucket of water, and then shot steel at 100 yards. Other red dot sights may not have this level of water resistance.
Also, how much of an issue is fogging – We have not had any problems with fogging and we have travelled extensively with the RMR Glock this year to various time zones, climates, etc. Not saying it cannot happen, but just that it has not been an issue. I suppose a fog spray as used on prescription glasses would solve that issue.
Field testing on larger calibers like full loads out of a G20. – We have installed these (Trijicons) on all models of Glocks including 10mm and 357 SIG. Users have had no problems or issues.
We have identified three possible options of red dot sight installation.
Option One is the Red Dot sights and BUIS installed in the traditional manner (our choice). Option Two is the BUIS installed in front of the Red Dot sight. Option Three is Red Dot sight only and no BUIS.
These can now be installed on Glock models, Springfield XDs, Smith & Wesson MP, FN Pistols, and 1911 systems. Other weapon platforms are in development. The cost of installation depends of course on the red dot unit selected and the installation option, as well as on who you choose to do the work. The same can be said for turn around times. Some weapons require more labor.
I hope these answers were helpful.
lethal dose
11-26-10, 21:21
Excellent synopsis, Mr. Suarez. The thought of throwing an rmr on my g19 has been rolling around in my head for a while. However, fears of the possibility of not liking it and the fact that I recently got married, which has resulted in a constantly empty wallet, are holding me back. Hopefully, I'll get the chance to t&e one before I buy.
eternal24k
11-26-10, 22:09
great thread, with the new sights and modifications I am really finding myself considering the option for once...
Bullseye and IPSC shooters have been using larger red-dots for years. Granted the Bullseye guys carry their guns in a box and the IPSCX holsters are for speed not concealment and the units used are usually rather large but the concept holds. I checked my "Brownell's" catalog and found over 6 pages of sights and some are small enough that they will fit on the top of a slide in a manner that will not be effected by any holster
I handled a red-dot topped M&P the other day. Impressive.
If I had the money I'd probably have a Triji RMR installed in mine.
Kelly McCann has been using a red dot topped Glock for years.
chillindrdude
11-26-10, 22:27
any plans to try the RMR install for HK P30?
Can you post a picture of how the system looks while pointed at a target, especially with the BUIS (shooters eye view)?
Don Robison
11-26-10, 22:33
Can you post a picture of how the system looks while pointed at a target, especially with the BUIS (shooters eye view)?
Here you go.
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s69/Donr101395/RMR.jpg
Thanks for the great writeup. I really want to check out one of these setups in person.
I think this is the future for le/mil. Just need to make some new style holsters for duty.
Don Robison
11-26-10, 22:50
I think this is the future for le/mil. Just need to make some new style holsters for duty.
Not that it's the perfect fix, but the Safariland 6XXX series of holsters can be cut for the RMR and the rotating hood clears the RMR.
Informative post, and relevant to me as somehow or other I seem to have made it to my mid-50s.
I think this is the future for le/mil. Just need to make some new style holsters for duty.
I don't think it is.
1) how can you get one on a Beretta? (joking)
2) pistols are rare enough in the big .mil.
3) it's been attempted, and didn't catch on. (Too slow acquiring the dot, from what I've heard. ie: time to first shot dropped too much.)
LAV let us test his at the recent USTC class. It was cool, but I'd rather use CT LG's and night sights in tandem, to be honest.
Is it lack of BUIS that's hindered the adoption of RDS on handguns outside of competition, or what? Cost? Reliability? Tradition?
I feel OK with Big Dots on my nightstand gun, but suspect I'd be better off with a RDS.
glockkid88
11-26-10, 23:27
I wont put any names out there but I know of one person who's rmr died a couple times during a training class. I am still not convinced on the durability of the mini rds for pistols. If I could do an aimpoint micro in the same fashion as the holo sights on pistols then I would definitely give it a try.
Students running just the red dot require a greater learning curve opposed to those running red dots in conjunction with suppressor sights. Additionally, since anything man-made can fail, the suppressor sight provide a true co-witnessed backup system in the event the red dot fails.
Normally, I find that I have a barrel index... meaning before I line the sights up, I get the barrel somewhere lower than 10 degrees incline... When you do so, you barely start to lose the barrel as the sights line up.
With the red dot, when you lower the barrel for that mental index, so that the tip of the barrel disappears behind the top of the MRD, the gun is still pointed up by WAY too far to see on the MRD.
When I put a Burris Fastfire on my Ruger Mk III, I found myself being slower with it, because when I go to line up my shot, I find myself dot hunting, and having to lower the barrel a LOT before it shows up.
I wonder if I had raised sights on the gun if it would help. Well, not happening with how it mounts on the Mk III, just food for thought for MRDs on pistols.
I am sure that with time and training I can re-teach myself how to index that gun, and drill it into muscle memory. It's getting there.
Gabe Suarez
11-27-10, 10:24
any plans to try the RMR install for HK P30?
Actually that is on the list. I was hoping to get some slides from one of the HK reps I used to work SWAT with in a past life but have not heard back yet. The other option is I will have to buy a couple of HKs and see if we can do it.
I am also looking at the HK USP, SIG system, 1911 (I handled the prototype last week and it rocks), and other slim-slide systems like thye Browning and CZ.
Gabe Suarez
11-27-10, 10:29
Can you post a picture of how the system looks while pointed at a target, especially with the BUIS (shooters eye view)?
http://www.onesourcetactical.com/images/products/detail/IMG_1143.jpg
This is what it looks like. What I like about this system is:
1). To your trained eye (trained to pick up a sight picture) it reducs the learning curve to zero. Most guys pick up the mass of the slide, then define the rear sight and then look through it to the front sight. With this system, you begin to id the red dot by happenstance. Eventually you pick up the dot faster than the sights.
2). If you run one pistol with a red dot and others with irons, there is one sight picture your eye will get used to, not two different sight pictures.
3). It gives you instant feedback about your zero. Lots of you guys run red dots on the M4 and AK...this is the same exact thing.
Gabe Suarez
11-27-10, 10:30
I think this is the future for le/mil. Just need to make some new style holsters for duty.
Funny you should ask. I have had an industry rep for a major holster company come out and look at these and discuss holsters with me. Who knows? We may see some cool stuff for these guns in the near future.
Gabe Suarez
11-27-10, 10:35
Mine in bold
I don't think it is.
1) how can you get one on a Beretta? (joking)
Sadly you can't. Yes, we tried, and ruined a perfectly good M9 doing it.
2) pistols are rare enough in the big .mil.
True, but big .mil is not whom we are intending this for. As an aside, there are a few of these on Glocks heading to A-stan in the hands of SF guys. Hopefully they will take some scalps and send pics.
3) it's been attempted, and didn't catch on. (Too slow acquiring the dot, from what I've heard. ie: time to first shot dropped too much.)
Actually, McCann has been running one for years so while some have tried and discarded the idea, nit everyone has. The BUIS I showed eliminated the "dot search time" since you have the irons right there as well.
LAV let us test his at the recent USTC class. It was cool, but I'd rather use CT LG's and night sights in tandem, to be honest.
I like and respect Larry alot, but I humbly submit that the one he was using was not the best expression of this system. I don't have contact with him, but those of you who do, please tell him my sentiments and that I would happily send him an entire slide for him to T&E. I think some minds would be changed.
Gabe Suarez
11-27-10, 10:37
I wont put any names out there but I know of one person who's rmr died a couple times during a training class. I am still not convinced on the durability of the mini rds for pistols. If I could do an aimpoint micro in the same fashion as the holo sights on pistols then I would definitely give it a try.
Anything man made can break...the RMR is no different. Same can be said of Aimpoints and ACOGs on rifles but that has not deterred our warriors in the sand from using them....they do what we are doing on the pistols and run BUIS.
The biggest issue on these has been to use good quality batteries.
Gabe Suarez
11-27-10, 10:53
Some data on sighting and hitting -
For zero to five yards, you could really take any and all sights off the gun and still be able to hit a man in the chest in CCW type fights. Seriously guys, you can point shoot and hit fater than any sight picture with any sights (red dots, irons, big dots, little dots, whatever). We can prove it to you in a six hour session where you will be doing it too.
Five yards to about ten yards, you need some sort of thing on the barrel to refine the alignment on a chest. A front sight of any sort is fine for a chest shot. You could get away with a big fiber optic shotgun bead actually.
Now....beyond ten yards, you need much more than this. And if the target is small, or partially exposed....such as a head shot, or a shot on an enemy's elbow protruding beyond cover, you will need far more sight/alignmnet refinement. The things that will let you shoot a chest at these ranges will not let you do anything beyond those ranges.
What you need is some sort of sighting instrument that allows you not only to see and identify the sights, but also to index them upon the desired target. And to do so under reduced lighting conditions.
For most shooters, Big Dot sights allow the rough sighting up close because they are easy to see, but sadly not easy to identify and index on the more difficult targets. IMHO, you'd be better off with some sort of fiberoptic type sights.
Traditional square and sharp irons will allow the index of moderate range targets and close small targets. Sights like the Warren Tacticals are what I use on my non-red dot guns. But the 7-8 MOA dots allow you to do all of this across a very broad spectrum of light.
With these, and the right skill set, you lose nothing in speed up close, but gain the ability to shoot those difficult partially covered targets up close, as well as the longer range targets.
Hitting from the holster at 100 yards in 25 yard time frames is quite common. In Kansas we had a gent from 5th Group hitting at 200 yards from standing isosceles. Up close, the matter is not head shots, but rather "which eye...right or left, do you want to hit".
This is certainly not for everyone, and lots of guys will try to talk themselves and everyone else out of them, but you owe it to yourself to see for yourself.
I will be at SHOT and have a couple of slides with me. If anyone wants to see 'em firsthand, shoot me an email and I will be happy to show them. As well, stop by a class...even just for an hour or so...bring some ammo and I'll let you run a couple of mags through my personal carry gun. You will see for yourself why this is such a serious advantage....just like on rifles.
Gabe,
I think Larry is running a BTC setup and i may be wrong.
Are you saying that your mounting solution is somehow superior to the way in which Bowie is milling his slides?
Are you using any kind of shock isolating material underneath the red dot?
Lucky Strike
11-27-10, 11:03
Thanks for nothing Gabe.
I had planned on getting myself a new 9mm & RMR this Christmas and having it sent off to get milled into the slide.
Then I spent the next month slowly talking myself out of it for fear of a very irrate wife who thinks I spent way too much on gunstuff this past year.
Now I have to start that process all over again.
I think I'll eventually get one (by slowly saving up money or deciding to sell one of my other guns) but reading posts like yours make me want to just place an order for everything ASAP.
Gabe,What's the general turn around time on doing just the milling cut for the RMR in a G21 slide? Also what price is it at just performing the cut?
Gabe Suarez
11-27-10, 11:11
Gabe,
I think Larry is running a BTC setup and i may be wrong.
Are you saying that your mounting solution is someone superior to the way in which Bowie is milling his slides?
Are you using any kind of shock isolating material underneath the red dot?
Yes, I think the system I show here is superior in many ways. I have spent many hours with Trijicon reps discussing various things and the install we do is, in my opinion, the best system out there. It is not easy for the techs to do it, but they do it that way because according to my experiments, it does what it is supposed to do better than the red dot only, or the BUIS in front.
Shock isolating? Nope...not needed on the Trijicon. I have two Glock 17s I have been running all year. I use them in classes, and studnets to use when they want to try the system. I have lost count but they both have in excess of 10K rounds each with no issues at all. I plan on replacing the batteries next month, one month short of the one year recommended.
I asked Trij about this when we first began installing these. They took an RMR glock and banged it into a cinder block over and over like driving a nail with it. After a while they stopped. The dot was still bright. No need for that IMHO.
What I do is to add a small strip of electrical tape between the battery and the slide. My techs tell me it helps wityh battery life. They know more about it than I so I do it.
Gabe Suarez
11-27-10, 11:13
Lucky, do what I do when I want a new blaster. Buy one for the XO as well. I bought an SBR 7.62 recently, and of course bought her one in 5.45. :laugh:
Gabe Suarez
11-27-10, 11:16
Gabe,What's the general turn around time on doing just the milling cut for the RMR in a G21 slide? Also what price is it at just performing the cut?
Heck...a couple of weeks tops. I have my techs chained to a rock in the dungeon cutting these and throw 'em a bowl of rice once in a while. Seriously, its quick. My staff does nothing else but cut slides and work on special projects for me.
I don't want to post commercial links since nobody here seems to want to take my check for advertising, but you can find me easy enough.
DocGKR has a couple of our guns BTW. Any questions about how we roll can be answered by him.
Great review that adds to the knowledge base. I think this is an interesting development and enjoy watching folks push the envelope.
My hunch is this will be an expensive passing fad - for most of the gun public. Yes, I have read and been told a few times that SOF individuals are running these. Are they also still running everything they've experimented with these last 10 years? Wait a minute. Did you say they were running Glocks? ;)
I'm all for all of your mini-RDS success guys and I hope this works out great. I'm sure they are more accurate. But I've read several strong proponents report that after thousands of rounds, they're still not as fast with the dot. Kudo's to them for shooting straight. Eventually, vision issues will drive me to these on at least a gun or two probably. Great option for vision challenges.
The future of LE or self defense use? Ehhhh probably not for a good while anyway. Other than specialized applications anyway.
I'll 2nd the low rating of a FastFire as I tried one out on a G19 a couple years ago. On/off switch a complete FAIL. And way too hard to pick up the dot fast in dynamic drills. That was my take.
Gabe Suarez
11-27-10, 11:33
Mine in bold
Great review that adds to the knowledge base. I think this is an interesting development and enjoy watching folks push the envelope.
Sure makes everything interesting doesn't it
My hunch is this will be an expensive passing fad - for most of the gun public. Yes, I have read and been told a few times that SOF individuals are running these. Are they also still running everything they've experimented with these last 10 years? Wait a minute. Did you say they were running Glocks? ;)
Maybe, but I remember the "night sights fad", the "rail under barrel fad" and the "adjustable frame size fad" too. Who knows. And the gents I had in class were running Glock 19s and apparently that is what they are running in country.
I'm all for all of your mini-RDS success guys and I hope this works out great. I'm sure they are more accurate. But I've read several strong proponents report that after thousands of rounds, they're still not as fast with the dot. Kudo's to them for shooting straight. Eventually, vision issues will drive me to these on at least a gun or two probably. Great option for vision challenges.
Like I said...its not for everyone and certainly not for every shooting style. For speed up close on a big target, unless someone is trying to get that "perfect sight picture" - which is also "perfectly unnecessary", shooting through the tube is faster IMHO.
The future of LE or self defense use? Ehhhh probably not for a good while anyway. Other than specialized applications anyway.
Maybe not. It took a few years for Glock to copy the M&P and for S&W to copy the Walther with the grip issues. Who know?
I'll 2nd the low rating of a FastFire as I tried one out on a G19 a couple years ago. On/off switch a complete FAIL. And way too hard to pick up the dot fast in dynamic drills. That was my take.
Anything with an ON-OFF switch is a bad choice for this IMHO
Thanks for the response Gabe.
In every effort to clutter the thread with more Porn here are some shots of my buddies Suarez Style G17.
Sorry for the dirt and random assorted Spuz on his guns. I can never seem to get them completely clean. Or for that matter, i can never truly get them to look good as they're all dirty, dinged, marred, gouged and smelly (not sure about the last one). Im purposefully making sure he does not read this thread, particularly about the part where the Trijicon rep hammered the RMR on a cinder block as im sure my buddy will give that action a whirl. :P
http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/8357/glockrmr1of1.jpg
http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/3134/glockrmr31of1.jpg
lethal dose
11-27-10, 11:46
What did he use to stiple that grip with? Looks like it's coated in asphalt. :D
Yes, I think the system I show here is superior in many ways.
Is it something proprietary in some way, or are the differences something you'd be willing to share?
I have an article in the current Custom Combat Handguns about a Bowie M&P with the Deltapoint so I'm familiar with that combination.
Gabe Suarez
11-27-10, 12:03
Rob,
We leave the iron sights exactly where they are from the factory. What that does is give your eye a place to go to find the sights. They are the exact same sights that came on the gun...only a little taller. Thus you will not be any slower shooting with these sights. You could take the suppressor sights and put them on a non-red dot gun and shoot/hit as fast as you can.
Now, we interject the red dot on that existing sighting plane, so when you pick up your sights, you automatically pick up he cowitnessed red dot as well.
This is superior to the other systems because it eliminates training time and "dot hunting" which is the main complaint guys have on the concept, and one I saw for myself when I had my first two slides done with red dots only.
The red dot only is a substandard installation system because it does not allow for true cowitnessing, or true BUIS. No matter what dots, lines, or bars are cut into the rear sight it woill not do anytrhing better than a true rear sight other than make for an easier installation by the gunsmith.
The BUIS in front of the red dot is also another easier gig for the gunsmith but does not fix the issue of the shooter's prior training causing a lag time looking for the dot.
Installing the red dot between the rear and front sights is far more difficult technically, and takes more work from the gunsmith/technician...specially on guns like the M&P that have little real estate to work with, but are far better for the shooter.
As a capitalist, I will be happy to have anything installed in any way anyone wants it with any red dot in any color, and I will make plenty of money from it. But what do I have in my holster? The RMR installed with the sights in their traditional spots.
If you are a writer and want to see for yourself, get ahold of Karen Levine at Harris and arrange for a T&E sample from OST.
Gabe Suarez
11-27-10, 12:08
M&P with the Deltapoint so I'm familiar with that combination.
Sorry....forgot to comment on the Deltapoint. I am a Leupold dealer and sell quite a few of their optics. The Delta Point is interesting. It comes in a 3.5 MOA dot (far too small a dot for handgun work as described in the OP), or a 7 MOA triangle.
The Triangle is a better option for the handgun, but the units I have seen have indistinct edges on the triangle. I don't know if those units were somehow different.
We are installing these on slides with narrow profiles like CZ75s and BHPs (testing phase on both). What I did not like about the DP is that it has a motion activator. It may work fine but it sounds a bit complicated for my taste.
Also, the adjustment mechanism is on the stern (ass end of the unit) making the traditional BUIS placement very difficult. Out techs have done it, and drilled holes through the BUIS to allow adjustments, but that sight requires alot more work to do nothing better than the RMR already does.
Gabe Suarez
11-27-10, 12:17
http://www.onesourcetactical.com/images/products/detail/IMG_0653.jpg
Notice how the BUIS are exactly in the factory dovetails, only a little higher so you can see them over the RMR. The RMR is milled into the slide at a depth that allows seeing the irons. You could actually mount a battery-less RMR on it and shoot the gun for a while without a dot to get the eyes used to the new sights. Once you add the battery, a red dot "magically" appears exactly at the top edge of the front sight where you should be focusing.
Gabe Suarez
11-27-10, 12:19
http://www.onesourcetactical.com/images/products/detail/IMG_0655.jpg
EDC-CCW is no big deal either. This is one of my carry guns in a left handed appendix carry rig (actually the appendix is on the other side but "spleen carry" sounds weird). We like to play ambidextrous so much of my training lately has been left handed.
Hunter Rose
11-27-10, 12:31
Gabe, any estimate on time until the HK setup is ready? Also, what models are you looking to support i.e. USP, HK45, P30, or all of the above?
Gabe Suarez
11-27-10, 12:38
I don't have an HK right now. My goal is to be able to offer this system on everything out there. Most of the guns we see in class are Glocks, XD, M&P and 1911 so those are the ones we focused on initially. All are done, except the 1911 which should be completed very soon.
HKs, and SIGs are next. I am not sure about SIG as their slide will probably be a problem like the Beretta. I will probably break down and buy an old SIG and have TSD cut it up to see if they can make it work.
The HK system looks like it will work for this. I need to do a study to determine which guns are mostly in use and what the differences are between them. My staff told me a local store has a few used USPs and I will probably go buy one next week for testing. HKs are not cheap and I'd like to have TSD look at one and get measurements for feasability before I buy any for actuial T&E.
Maybe we can determine WHICH HK would be the best to begin with?
Probably the P30 Gabe.
It seems to be growing in popularity amongst people favoring H&K handguns.
Granted, there are ALOT more USP's in circulation but im not really sure too many of the guys running those guns would be interested in a fighting setup like this.
Im not really qualified to say as im only an internet commando, not a gun store commando. :)
My OPINION is that if i were to buy an H&K handgun right now, it would be a P30.
If you are a writer and want to see for yourself, get ahold of Karen Levine at Harris and arrange for a T&E sample from OST.
I may just do that, I write for them pretty regularly. Thanks.
SIGcurious
11-28-10, 20:36
Here's my hesitation; the machining of the slide. This effectively locks you into the chosen RDS. Iron sights, for most non-1911 weapon systems anyway, will let you swap different manufacturer's sights, as the dovetails typically won't need modification. Let's say I go with the Trijicon RMR solution ... next month, Trijicon will inevitably come out with another sight with a smaller footprint, thinner profile, brighter dot, bigger view-finder, etc. I hate chasing technology sometimes!
Make sure what sight you do want. That's where I'm at now. I got the Delta point and don't like it and wish I'd went ahead and gotten the RMR instead.
Most guys pick up the mass of the slide, then define the rear sight and then look through it to the front sight.
Only part I disagree with.
Most of the good shooters I know catch the front sight first and track it all the way from compressed to extension on the press out.
This will be especially prevalent with XS Big Dot shooters and shooters who have taken classes that emphasize the "press out" such as Todd Green's "Aim Fast Hit Fast" class.
I wanted to put up an update of sorts. I first saw the concept of a red dot on a CCW Pistol with Kelly McCann's Docter-equipped Glock. I didn't give the idea more than a passing glance until I began hearing from my older students about not being able to see their sights well enough. . .Additionally, I turned fifty and noticed a slight difficulty in recognizing that sharp sight picture of yesteryear.
Here's an excerpt I saw:
I switched to the Doctor Optic sight years ago for two reasons - sight picture commonality with my carbine holographic sight and failing vision - yes, it's true - the eyes DO go first.
I've just recently started contemplating on such a sight, since I've noticed that my "tired eyes" are not what they used to be. ;)
The_Biased_Observer
11-28-10, 22:18
Great adaptation but man those RMR's arent cheap.
Anyone have photos of the smaller dot's available or a description of say.. how wide the dot is compared to the front sight width at full arm extension?
Make sure what sight you do want. That's where I'm at now. I got the Delta point and don't like it and wish I'd went ahead and gotten the RMR instead.
Just curious - what don't you like about the Deltapoint?
aspiderfreak
11-29-10, 00:46
...
Maybe we can determine WHICH HK would be the best to begin with?
I vote for the HK USP.
Great adaptation but man those RMR's arent cheap.
Anyone have photos of the smaller dot's available or a description of say.. how wide the dot is compared to the front sight width at full arm extension?
Here's a picture of my 7moa Dual Illuminated RMR. I believe it is the smallest DI.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_02811.jpg
My Dual Illumination RMR with 7moa dot in action. I am not a great shot so don't judge the optic by my performance.
MadDog :big_boss:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yixmtnwlWzE
My Dual Illumination RMR with 7moa dot in action. I am not a great shot so don't judge the optic by my performance.
MadDog :big_boss:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yixmtnwlWzE
MD,
Are those nerves and adrenaline at work or are you fishing for the dot? You can see this get particularly bad when you're shooting around the barricade.
Magsz: Partially nerves but mostly the cold. The day started out at 20 degrees and was probably 35 when I shot that stage. I shake a lot no matter what pistol I am using, open sights or MRD's. The crazy thing is that most of us wore winter parkas and gloves but the SO was walking around in short sleeves.
MadDog
LOL!
Thanks for giving a bit more background as to what was going on.
The only reason why i asked was because i have some video of me shooting a red dot equipped handgun and there were times when i saw my hands doing much the same thing but i was hunting for the dot.
20 Degrees...im going to go outside now and appreciate the 78 degree Florida weather. :D
Winston Smith
11-30-10, 18:27
The USP has the firing pin safety near the rear of the slide; the Glock's is just behind the breach block. The RMR might have to be rather close to the ejection port. Just FYI.
Here's my hesitation; the machining of the slide. This effectively locks you into the chosen RDS. Iron sights, for most non-1911 weapon systems anyway, will let you swap different manufacturer's sights, as the dovetails typically won't need modification. Let's say I go with the Trijicon RMR solution ... next month, Trijicon will inevitably come out with another sight with a smaller footprint, thinner profile, brighter dot, bigger view-finder, etc. I hate chasing technology sometimes!
THere is an easy option for you, buy a RMR mount that replaces the rear sight. Then if you don't like it, you have not altered your weapon.
C4
If I can find a P226 slide, would you be interested in giving it a go? I do prefer stamped slides. Just off the cuff, do you think they would be more difficult than a SS milled one. The balance of the stamped guns is just better in my Op. I allready am in communication with you about doing my wife's Steyr M9.......
If I can find a P226 slide, would you be interested in giving it a go? I do prefer stamped slides. Just off the cuff, do you think they would be more difficult than a SS milled one. The balance of the stamped guns is just better in my Op. I allready am in communication with you about doing my wife's Steyr M9.......
I know I read a post from Bruce Gray (grayguns.com), probably on the Sig Forum,that mounting a dot sight in the slide of a Sig in the same fashion as a Glock/M&P is not a good idea.
That was a while ago, things may have changed, but I doubt it. IIRC, his reason was the contour of the slide didn't allow the same support as a Glock would. Given his reputation, if you email him he would respond with a straight answer. He's pretty much the Larry Vickers of Sigs.
May I ask which brand of suppressor sights you use and recommend?
Bowie Tactical
12-04-10, 09:54
I like to get things done right when I do them so instead of just slapping a RMR in front of the factory M&P sights, where you can't co witness the irons like a do with my front mounted set ups, I now am offering this as well for those who want a true co witness rear behind the RMR on the M&P's. It also keeps the RMR back from the ejection port which keeps it cleaner and allows easier holster fits. Sorry about pix attachment but my computor and me are not seeing eye to eye on getting the actual image here.
David Bowie
Bowie Tactical
AZ-Renegade
12-04-10, 10:10
It seems to me that having an RDS with a BUIS machined into the rear portion of the housing would be ideal.
Bowie Tactical
12-04-10, 10:51
No it's not ideal but some want it there. I think folks are just used to the rear sight being there from all the years of it. But we are in a new idea now and we need to be thinking outside of the box. The rear sight in front is still best for alot of reasons that i have outlined alot but, the reality is people want different things and I like to be able to do it right for customers.
David Bowie
I like to get things done right when I do them so instead of just slapping a RMR in front of the factory M&P sights, where you can't co witness the irons like a do with my front mounted set ups, I now am offering this as well for those who want a true co witness rear behind the RMR on the M&P's. It also keeps the RMR back from the ejection port which keeps it cleaner and allows easier holster fits. Sorry about pix attachment but my computor and me are not seeing eye to eye on getting the actual image here.
David Bowie
Bowie Tactical
That looks like a really nice setup David.
it looks like it would fit in my serpa for XD9 subcompact. just how much are these rigs running anyways? would be pretty neat to get one, as i suck past 20 feet with my XD9, even after 1000+ rounds of practice. maybe im doing it wrong?:confused:
it looks like it would fit in my serpa for XD9 subcompact. just how much are these rigs running anyways? would be pretty neat to get one, as i suck past 20 feet with my XD9, even after 1000+ rounds of practice. maybe im doing it wrong?:confused:
I would humbly suggest taking whatever money you were considering spending on a RDS, and getting yourself into a class where the instructors are know for teaching the fundamentals of accurate shooting (IOW, are accuracy nazi's).
Howe, Vickers, TigerSwan... anyone who demands surgical accuracy on each and every round fired. That money spent will take your abilities MUCH further than any RDS.
I would humbly suggest taking whatever money you were considering spending on a RDS, and getting yourself into a class where the instructors are know for teaching the fundamentals of accurate shooting (IOW, are accuracy nazi's).
Howe, Vickers, TigerSwan... anyone who demands surgical accuracy on each and every round fired. That money spent will take your abilities MUCH further than any RDS.
this is true, but i am a way better shot with my colt cobra snubnose.. i dont get it at all.
The software here doesn't allow for moderator alert, so I am going to have to contaminate this thread a bit.
MrMiller, since internet sometimes lacks precision of verbal communications I could be very well mistaken, but your posts at times convey a strong message of self-promotion by way of antagonizing David. Specifically, I think this is a second thread were you hint, or so it feels to me, at your fast turn-around times vs. long lead times with him.
Self-promotion is fine. Negative campaigning is not, and often times is counterproductive.
In case I misunderstood your posts - I am sorry, I hope I didn't offend you; my intentions were to help keeping this board collegial and non-abrasive.
Gabe Suarez
12-05-10, 08:21
Here's my hesitation; the machining of the slide. This effectively locks you into the chosen RDS. Iron sights, for most non-1911 weapon systems anyway, will let you swap different manufacturer's sights, as the dovetails typically won't need modification. Let's say I go with the Trijicon RMR solution ... next month, Trijicon will inevitably come out with another sight with a smaller footprint, thinner profile, brighter dot, bigger view-finder, etc. I hate chasing technology sometimes!
Well...at some point you need to decide no? I went through the same thing with eye surgery. Waiting until they procedure got better. Eventually you will either decide to do it now, or you will die without having done it.
I can tell you that while the internals and other improvements may come from Trij, the foot pring will remain as is for some time.
Gabe Suarez
12-05-10, 08:25
[QUOTE=JodyH;827966]Only part I disagree with.
Most of the good shooters I know catch the front sight first and track it all the way from compressed to extension on the press out.
/QUOTE]
Well Jody, if you are a world class shooter then you could probably get away with anything you want to put on your gun. If you are a regular guy, this systrem will improve your accuracy and speed immediately.
In my classes, and those of my staff (we have about 50 staff at present around the world) I see very poor results with XS big dot sights. People do far better leaving the sights as factory issued as far as accuracy goes. For pure speed at CCW ranges, we can take the sights off completely and shoot bare slides and still just as fast as any sight pictures out there.
Its when you need more accuracy that the red dots shine. Eyeball sized targets at 10 yards are easy and we have students hit first round out to 100 and 200 yards.
Gabe Suarez
12-05-10, 08:28
Great adaptation but man those RMR's arent cheap.
Anyone have photos of the smaller dot's available or a description of say.. how wide the dot is compared to the front sight width at full arm extension?
For my eyes, the 8 MOA is slightly narrower than the front sight. The image make sthe dot look slightly wider but it is a little narrower in real lifehttp://www.onesourcetactical.com/images/products/detail/IMG_1143.jpg
Gabe Suarez
12-05-10, 08:31
If I can find a P226 slide, would you be interested in giving it a go? I do prefer stamped slides. Just off the cuff, do you think they would be more difficult than a SS milled one. The balance of the stamped guns is just better in my Op. I allready am in communication with you about doing my wife's Steyr M9.......
Absolutely. Send me a PM and we can discuss sending it. My TSD staf is busy but we will focus on great workmanship and faster than any one else turn arounds. These guys are doing this for me full time now (not as a sideline) and i will assign someone to the SIG project as soon as we have it. :D
Gabe Suarez
12-05-10, 08:32
May I ask which brand of suppressor sights you use and recommend?
We use various makers for our sights.
Gabe Suarez
12-05-10, 08:35
I like to get things done right when I do them so instead of just slapping a RMR in front of the factory M&P sights, where you can't co witness the irons like a do with my front mounted set ups, I now am offering this as well for those who want a true co witness rear behind the RMR on the M&P's. It also keeps the RMR back from the ejection port which keeps it cleaner and allows easier holster fits. Sorry about pix attachment but my computor and me are not seeing eye to eye on getting the actual image here.
David Bowie
Bowie Tactical
David,
while we have not seen any issues at all with our installed RMR/MP systems, nor the true cowitness they provide, thank you for posting that very nice photo. I have sent it to TSD and it will probably become one of our options for the M&P system for those who worry about the RMR being too close. I notice it is also probably far cheaper to install since one can use any rear sight they wish with the new dovetail.
Gabe Suarez
12-05-10, 08:38
No it's not ideal but some want it there. I think folks are just used to the rear sight being there from all the years of it. But we are in a new idea now and we need to be thinking outside of the box. The rear sight in front is still best for alot of reasons that i have outlined alot but, the reality is people want different things and I like to be able to do it right for customers.
David Bowie
David,
Thank you for letting me know that the rear sight set up behind the RMR is not ideal, but I disagree 100%. My posts in the early part of the thread explain why, as well as why gunsmiths have been tempted to do away with a rear sight and then to mount it as an afterthought in front of the RMR when the market demands a BUIS.
FN for example, probably put a great deal of thought into their set up, and found out, as we did, what the truly best position was for those sights. They did not mount the red dot and then as an afterthought mount irons on what was left.
Moreover, "right" is often a matter of opinion. The ultimate opinion that matters of course is trhe customer and what they want. We have apparently convinced most of the folks out there when they see the difference as we have done almost 4-1 proper sights to afterthought installations.
In the end, the market will decide.
Well Jody, if you are a world class shooter then you could probably get away with anything you want to put on your gun. If you are a regular guy, this systrem will improve your accuracy and speed immediately.
You completely misread my post Gabe.
I'm not disagreeing that the RDS works. RDS's have been proven in competition for years.
Here is the quotes from you I disagree with.
Thank you for letting me know that the rear sight set up behind the RMR is not ideal, but I disagree 100%. My posts in the early part of the thread explain why,.
1). To your trained eye (trained to pick up a sight picture) it reducs the learning curve to zero. Most guys pick up the mass of the slide, then define the rear sight and then look through it to the front sight. With this system, you begin to id the red dot by happenstance. Eventually you pick up the dot faster than the sights.
Most good shooters do NOT see the slide mass, define the rear sight then look for the front sight.
Most good shooters (especially those accustomed to shooting XS or performing a "press out") will pick up the slide then immediately start tracking the FRONT sight to the target.
Hence the learning curve will not be reduced to zero for those shooters.
I see this all the time in IPSC where a high level Limited shooter starts shooting open with a RDS and consistently comes out muzzle high because he's tracking the FRONT sight which is above the RDS.
That shooter then has to spend time hunting for the dot.
It takes these shooters a while to transition to leveling the gun out quicker and seeing the front sight/dot through the window.
For a shooter who is front sight focused, there will be a learning curve to tracking the front sight through the RDS window so they can track the dot to the target.
Gabe Suarez
12-05-10, 17:13
Mine in bold
You completely misread my post Gabe.
I'm not disagreeing that the RDS works. RDS's have been proven in competition for years.
OK...sorry.
Most good shooters do NOT see the slide mass, define the rear sight then look for the front sight.
Got it, but of the peopel out there that can benefit from gthis, how many would you consider "good"? I had a 70 year old woman at class last year that could not hit the target beyond 5 yards with a Big Dot sight. I handed her my RMR Glock and she was able to hit eyeballs on that same target and reach out center of mass to 50 yards. She was NOT a good shot, but not needing to align two small metal pieces before shooting did make her shoot better.
Guys that are already good shots pick up the tube or the RDS - look through the tube and pick up the dot with both eyes open quite well and fast. If the BUIS are in the same plane as the RDS then there is no difference in what sight system they are using.
Absolutely. Send me a PM and we can discuss sending it. My TSD staf is busy but we will focus on great workmanship and faster than any one else turn arounds. These guys are doing this for me full time now (not as a sideline) and i will assign someone to the SIG project as soon as we have it. :D
I'll start the search for an "extra" P226 slide then, as this still seems to be an experiment yet. I have a set of Ameriglo Luminova suppressor sights I picked up for my P220 on clearance for cheap. Maybe they will work with the P226. I'll have to check the #s on my sights. I'll send you an e:mail when I find the slide.
Bowie Tactical
12-10-10, 10:56
http://www.bowietacticalconcepts.com/sitebuilder/images/cover_plates_crop-462x396.jpg
I have now available cover plates for the RMR, Deltapoint and J-Point milled slides. These allow pistol to be used should, for whatever reason, the RDS needs to be removed. I have a limited number ready until I see how the demand goes. If it is good I will produce a larger batch.
David Bowie
John_Wayne777
12-10-10, 14:55
Self-promotion is fine. Negative campaigning is not, and often times is counterproductive.
An excellent observation, sir.
This thread continues to exist because there is some useful information in it about the use of the RDS on handguns. As long as it stays about that and doesn't descend into taking pot shots, the conversation can continue. :)
The cover plates are a great idea; thank you very much for sharing this!
http://www.bowietacticalconcepts.com/sitebuilder/images/cover_plates_crop-462x396.jpg
I have now available cover plates for the RMR, Deltapoint and J-Point milled slides. These allow pistol to be used should, for whatever reason, the RDS needs to be removed. I have a limited number ready until I see how the demand goes. If it is good I will produce a larger batch.
David Bowie
Why would I need these?
Chris
Why would I need these?
Chris
Not David, but.. on my Glock the screw channel goes all the way to the extractor plunger channel. If I were to remove an optic and run as is, I'd have direct path for the debris etc.
David, how does one go about ordering one?
David I left a phone message on your machine earlier this evening to order one. Give me a call back Saturday if it's possible, or I'll tray again maybe.
I'd really like to score one in case you sell out.
Not David, but.. on my Glock the screw channel goes all the way to the extractor plunger channel. If I were to remove an optic and run as is, I'd have direct path for the debris etc.
David, how does one go about ordering one?
Why would I need to remove my RDS?
Chris
I can't say why "you" would.
I did because I don't care that much for it. At least not as a daily carry piece.
I suspect YVK would have his own set of reasons.
Why would I need to remove my RDS?
Chris
Mechanical breakdown and lack of immediate replacement - I have had to send my optic for repair once, shattered glass obscuring the field, doing a class with irons only (JP doesn't have on/off switch, although I presume one can just remove a battery), ditching the RDS altogether...
All brilliant reasons for a tiny piece of sheet metal convenience.
Bowie Tactical
12-10-10, 21:23
The reason to need the RDS off has been covered with the broken unit needing to go back to factory for repair if its all you have and the reason for the cover plate is to protect the top bosses and on the M&P to trap the firing pin safety and spring. It's not a huge need item but enough requests and questions about them to my shop have spured the item to be made. As for ordering just call or email me.
David Bowie
The_Biased_Observer
12-10-10, 21:58
Couple more questions: Do the various outfits doing the installs care if the buyer supplies his own sight? Not to complain, but the pricing of a few in the packages I've researched are not bottom dollar as far as the sight goes. Looks like one can save roughly $80 or so by supplying his own sight...
Another, I'd like to see the condition of the metal underneath the mount that has been milled away after a few days in rain, fog, etc. Aware of the majority of the slides being done are stainless, rust can still be an issue especially with water trapped between the slide and sight. Without being able to see what's underneath I assume this is a potential issue of a neglected gun? I've been known to do that... A refinish of the area will be nice, but how does the finish stand up to the settling of the sight, recoil etc?
Re Meloniting would be great but probably costly.
And, is there a list of current holsters that will accomodate the pistols with the additions? Serpa? Safariland?
Lucky Strike
12-10-10, 22:13
If you go through the options on OST's order page there's a "None" option for the red dots which is what you'd choose if you were supplying your own.
Thanks for the review. I am a USPSA Opens shooter and now after many years of shooting with a red dot sight (c-more on a frame mount) my eyes have been unaccustomed to focusing back to the front sight when I try shooting iron, therefore I'm left using a target focus. This makes tight shoots at distance more difficult. This new concept will work well for me for my CCW
The benefit of the dot is that it allows me to always use a target focus, and I have found up close, I am just as fast with a dot as I am without, if you are looking through the glass you know you will be on target. What I have found that slows new shooters down, besides hunting for the dot, is focusing on the dot and not the target. One trick I use is to help is to tape over the front of glass, if you can see the dot on the target then you are focused correctly, if you only see black behind the dot. you are focused on the dot.
I know some of the Doctor sights have had some reliability issues, I believe the C-more STS has been reliable, it has an on off switch but will also turn down when the sensor reads no light. It also allows you to replace the battery without removing the sight.
It's not a huge need item but enough requests and questions about them to my shop have spured the item to be made. As for ordering just call or email me.
David Bowie
Price?
Don Robison
12-11-10, 00:42
Couple more questions: Do the various outfits doing the installs care if the buyer supplies his own sight? Not to complain, but the pricing of a few in the packages I've researched are not bottom dollar as far as the sight goes. Looks like one can save roughly $80 or so by supplying his own sight...
I'm not Gabe, but OST offers the service without you buying the sight. They(OST) have been having people who already have a sight enclose it in the box when you send the slide.
Another, I'd like to see the condition of the metal underneath the mount that has been milled away after a few days in rain, fog, etc. Aware of the majority of the slides being done are stainless, rust can still be an issue especially with water trapped between the slide and sight. Without being able to see what's underneath I assume this is a potential issue of a neglected gun? I've been known to do that... A refinish of the area will be nice, but how does the finish stand up to the settling of the sight, recoil etc?
If you don't choose to have the slide moly coated; the machined area is cold blued. There hasn't been an issue with losing zero when removing the sight for inspection and cleaning, but as always it's a good idea to reconfirm your zero.
And, is there a list of current holsters that will accomodate the pistols with the additions? Serpa? Safariland?
Some trimming is needed on the 6XXX series of Safariland holsters to make them work, Dale Fricke is making holsters that cover the RMR and many of the hip holsters from the various manufacturers like Comp-Tac will work with no modification; basically any holster that doesn't cover more than about 1/4" past the rear of the ejection port.
Alaskapopo
12-11-10, 04:27
I have started shooting open in USPSA and I was taught a little trick to find the dot faster by a master class shooter. Draw with the muzzle slightly high and push it down as you extend your arms you will find the dot. (basically porposing what we are trained not to do with irons) Anyway it worked well for me with my Caspian Race gun with a Cmore. It may work on these guns as well. Not sure.
Pat
Bowie Tactical
12-11-10, 07:25
I have no problem at all if customers send me the sight to install or just install themself when i ship slide back. As for the slide finish under the unit I can re-melonite, or apply one of the ceramic based coatings i use but this does add to cost and time, but I too cold blue the carbon slides. This is not the most rust resistant finish but i know alot of folks running this way. As for durability these units do very well. I have beat both the RMR and the Deltapoint to a stupid point and so far the None of my units or any customer reports of any point shift on the deltapoint unit and only a few reports of point shift on the RMR. I think the adjustment locks are what helps the Deltapoint. Either unit is good though. The point shift after taking them off for battery change is nothing or next to nothing. I have checked mine after change at 50 yards and it was inside a 4 inch circle. As for cost of the slide covers it $45. they are mil spec phosphate. I will soon have the design in place to mount the BUIS behind the Deltapoint on the M&P and looks like soon after that on the glock for those who want that BUIS set up. I have done it for a while for the RMR but the rear locking sets on the Deltapoint have proven a speed bump for the rear BUIS on the Deltapoint but I have it figured out it is just getting the items I need in house.
David Bowie
Gabe Suarez
12-11-10, 08:41
The Slide Cover Plates are sold through OST as The Slide Saddle TM.
Gabe Suarez
12-11-10, 08:43
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I have started shooting open in USPSA and I was taught a little trick to find the dot faster by a master class shooter. Draw with the muzzle slightly high and push it down as you extend your arms you will find the dot. (basically porposing what we are trained not to do with irons) Anyway it worked well for me with my Caspian Race gun with a Cmore. It may work on these guns as well. Not sure.
Pat
I touched on this earlier in the thread.
I see this all the time in IPSC where a high level Limited shooter starts shooting open with a RDS and consistently comes out muzzle high because he's tracking the FRONT sight which is above the RDS.
That shooter then has to spend time hunting for the dot.
It takes these shooters a while to transition to leveling the gun out quicker and seeing the front sight/dot through the window.
I agree that the gun needs to come out level, going muzzle high leads to the open gun wiggle. You see the shooter wiggle the gun around trying to find the dot. Hours of proper practice getting the index correctly stops this, but make sure you practice it in all positions
SWATcop556
12-11-10, 09:37
We can discuss the finer points of the RDS on the handgun but this will not turn into a pissing match between competeing businesses. Let's keep it professional.
Littlelebowski
12-11-10, 09:46
this is true, but i am a way better shot with my colt cobra snubnose.. i dont get it at all.
Take a class.
Gabe Suarez
12-13-10, 11:56
http://www.onesourcetactical.com/images/products/detail/IMG_0983.jpg
The Slide Saddle
Some have asked for a slide insert that would cover the slot cut into the slide in the event they wanted to run their pistols with the Trijicon RMR unit removed, either for travel, or for certain competitions restricting the use of the Red Dot systems.
Contoured specially to fit the pistol slides, it looks like it was hand cut right off slide. It is finished in either Black, Olive Green, or Tan depending on your choices. If you ever consider running your pistol without the RDS, this is an essential piece of gear.
I had the opportunity to test out a RMR M&P pistol at my last VSM class. I can definitely tell that there would be a learning curve to using this, however after seeing the RMR shut off randomly during the intstructor's demonstrations (it was a 9mm with only 200ish rounds through it), it lost some of its luster in my eyes. However, I fully accept the possibility that this is a fairly rare occurance...still iron sights dont "shut off". I think that perhaps in a few years, the industry will have the concept a little more refined, then perhaps I will look into them.
Gabe Suarez
12-13-10, 13:05
First off anything man-made can fail. That is why a back up system and redundancies are needed. One would not consider an M4 as combat-ready if it had an Aimpoint but no BUIS. Same for the handgun. If the red dot fails for any reason, the irons are right there.
On the red dots failing, the ones I have seen have been due mostly to the use of "cheap" batteries. Duracell has been what I use and although I have several thousand rounds through our company guns, we have not had any problems.
Still, if that is a concern that will keep you up at night, get the dual illumination one that needs no batteries and will last you 12 years before it needs to have the tritium replaced.
NCPatrolAR
12-13-10, 13:44
This sounds perhaps like the battery contacts are not properly insulated from the slide.
This can cause the sight operation to be intermittent.
We insulate the battery contacts with 10mil pipe wrap tape to make sure that the battery contacts don't touch the slide under the RMR.
I'll ask this since others have done so and not received an answer from you.
Who is the "we" mentioned in your post? If you are involved in the industry, which your posts make obvious, you need to disclose this in your signature line. Refer to rule 5 of the site rules (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=1497)
5) Industry Disclosure – If you are an industry manufacturer/dealer or employed by one you must disclose this relationship through your screen name or signature line. Anonymous industry trolling will not be allowed.
I had the opportunity to test out a RMR M&P pistol at my last VSM class. I can definitely tell that there would be a learning curve to using this, however after seeing the RMR shut off randomly during the intstructor's demonstrations (it was a 9mm with only 200ish rounds through it), it lost some of its luster in my eyes. However, I fully accept the possibility that this is a fairly rare occurance...still iron sights dont "shut off". I think that perhaps in a few years, the industry will have the concept a little more refined, then perhaps I will look into them.
My wife and I were shooting a USPSA match. She was running a Jpoint, I was running a C-more sts . Part of the stage, you had to shoot through a barrel, She went first and put the gun in the barrel. The Jpoint thought it was sleepy time and shut off. The STS has an on off switch and stayed on.
Just one more thing to be aware of
I received my cover plate from Bowie today. Fit and finish of the plate was perfect. There's not much you can say about a thing like that other than it's as pictured.
However...I'm one to always test fire any weapon mods I make. I went out after putting the plate on and the G19 failed to extract, it popped off the rim of the case and the extractor was hanging somewhat loose in the slide.
Two more test rounds were fired to ensure it hadn't been something to do with the round (Winchester factory) and as before the gun was completely disabled and both times type 3 malfunctions occurred.
The problem? The screw that covers the right side of the plate to affix it to the slide penetrates down into the slide when it's fully tightened down enough to impede the extractor plunger spring. Nothing slightly shortening the screw won't fix. But certainly something to be aware of if anyone is using this on a duty weapon or CCW.
At any rate, while I've said before the work is impeccable on the gun that was performed, the RDS system just isn't for me. I think I'll post the slide with the milled cuts and Ameriglo BUIS for sale in the EE here pretty quickly. See if I can pick up enough cash to purchase another G19 and get back to basics.
Bowie Tactical
12-22-10, 07:00
I received my cover plate from Bowie today. Fit and finish of the plate was perfect. There's not much you can say about a thing like that other than it's as pictured.
However...I'm one to always test fire any weapon mods I make. I went out after putting the plate on and the G19 failed to extract, it popped off the rim of the case and the extractor was hanging somewhat loose in the slide.
Two more test rounds were fired to ensure it hadn't been something to do with the round (Winchester factory) and as before the gun was completely disabled and both times type 3 malfunctions occurred.
The problem? The screw that covers the right side of the plate to affix it to the slide penetrates down into the slide when it's fully tightened down enough to impede the extractor plunger spring. Nothing slightly shortening the screw won't fix. But certainly something to be aware of if anyone is using this on a duty weapon or CCW.
At any rate, while I've said before the work is impeccable on the gun that was performed, the RDS system just isn't for me. I think I'll post the slide with the milled cuts and Ameriglo BUIS for sale in the EE here pretty quickly. See if I can pick up enough cash to purchase another G19 and get back to basics.t
Dude so sorry about that.I tried to set them up to get as much bite as possible and must have let to much on that. I will be more conservative. I hate that happened.
David Bowie
Hey, no problems and no complaints. I'm sure it's an easy fix.
It's more a testimonial of test firing your equipment, no matter what it is, than anything else.
Thanks again for all the service.
the RDS system just isn't for me
How many rounds did you put through the setup before coming to this conclusion?
Sandman751
12-22-10, 12:11
Here are my thoughts on these! Do they have the potential to improve the capability of the operator/LEO or armed citizen? Probably so, and that's not a bad thing. As an operator /instructor I've been around long enough to see the introduction of the RDS for the M4/AR platform. No doubt it has increased our combat effectiveness. Now, I'm seeing the same thing on handguns. What concerns me from an objective point of view, is that we may be developing a generation of technology dependant shooters in our military and LE communities that may move away from sufficiently training with iron sights.
If you develop a shooter that trains strictly with an RDS and one that trains with irons, there's no way in hell that the RDS shooter will be a better shooter, period. I'll argue this point until I take a permanent dirt nap. This is where the instruction professional comes into the equation at the military and LE levels because we need to make sure that we devote sufficient (actually more) training time to the irons.
We've seen over and over again how the top brass in the military has made damaging changes to the training doctrine for the sake of expediency/cost reduction. Lets not even go into (some) LE administrators, those are a breed of their own and I don't doubt they'll use the "advantages" of the RDS as the impetus to minimize cost associated with the training of the troops. I can go on and on, but don't have the time. But, those of you that have been around and use a gun for a living as I do, can probably see where I'm going with this.
Wayneard3413
12-22-10, 14:24
My little addition to this thread....
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t37/wayneard3413/DSCF6193.jpg
I got intrigued at the idea of having the same sight picture as my Aimpoint equipped rifles and decided to give it a shot. I picked up a Jpoint from a friend and ordered one of the rear sight mounts.
The height over bore issue really had me hunting for the dot and I found that I had to make sure that my draw was spot on to make sure I could spot the dot before full extension.
I took the pistol so equipped to a RskTkr Consulting pistol class to really wring it out. While I felt that it was slightly slowing me down on close shots due to not really being able to follow the front sight out it was still rather quick. I managed to take top shooter honors at that class and I think other than simply following the advice and tips of the instructors that the optic really helped me out.
The one problem was that I was bottomed out on adjustment and still shooting very low when using the mount. It was also impossible to co-witness the front with that mounting solution as well.
I sent the optic home with one of the RskTkr staff and he was able to mill a Caspian slide for the Jpoint. I have only had it out for a few range sessions since then but so far it is working great.
With practice (lots and lots of dry fire) I have found it to be very quick. An added side benifit is that it is now so easy to connect on rather long distance shots that it almost feels like cheating.
The one issue I have is that the Jpoint isn't really the most solid optic in the world. The plastic construction leaves a little to be desired IMO. I have already put a small crack on one side of the housing.
It will go with me to a few more classes in the coming months and if all goes well I will have my M&P milled as well. That one will probably have me digging a bit deeper in the pocket and picking up a RMR instead.
An added side benifit is that it is now so easy to connect on rather long distance shots that it almost feels like cheating.
How long are these kinds of shots?
thanks,
Okie John
Bowie Tactical
12-22-10, 15:58
Here are my thoughts on these! Do they have the potential to improve the capability of the operator/LEO or armed citizen? Probably so, and that's not a bad thing. As an operator /instructor I've been around long enough to see the introduction of the RDS for the M4/AR platform. No doubt it has increased our combat effectiveness. Now, I'm seeing the same thing on handguns. What concerns me from an objective point of view, is that we may be developing a generation of technology dependant shooters in our military and LE communities that may move away from sufficiently training with iron sights.
If you develop a shooter that trains strictly with an RDS and one that trains with irons, there's no way in hell that the RDS shooter will be a better shooter, period. I'll argue this point until I take a permanent dirt nap. This is where the instruction professional comes into the equation at the military and LE levels because we need to make sure that we devote sufficient (actually more) training time to the irons.
We've seen over and over again how the top brass in the military has made damaging changes to the training doctrine for the sake of expediency/cost reduction. Lets not even go into (some) LE administrators, those are a breed of their own and I don't doubt they'll use the "advantages" of the RDS as the impetus to minimize cost associated with the training of the troops. I can go on and on, but don't have the time. But, those of you that have been around and use a gun for a living as I do, can probably see where I'm going with this.
If you mean better shooter as in thier trigger control, weapons manipulation, ect. I agree you can't replace those issues with hardware. But if you mean the ability to hit the target quicker and more accurately using the same skill at arms level there you are dead wrong. it has been proven time and time again in open class competition guns and I have been in this buisness 25 years and have ran every possible style and combinations of sights and, RDS systems are faster and more accurate especially at further distances with the same given mechanical skills. They have a learning curve to use them at their full potential but open class shooters have seen the about 20 to 30 % gain by using RDS systems. Now before somebody jumps my butt and says yeah but were training for a fight lets step back and get to the basic problem solution. Competition shooters want to hit their target as quickly and accurately as possible and unless I have missed something over the past 25 years in a gun fight our gaol is the same. I agree 100% you CAN NOT let technology make us lazy at our training or dedication to the fundamentals but to deny it works just because it is a new fangled thing is cheating ourselves of an advantage that works. I have ran RDS systems on my fighting pistols for going on 8 years now and can attest to the atributes.
David Bowie
How many rounds did you put through the setup before coming to this conclusion?
Approximately 1500 since I received it back in Late August/Early September.
I'm thinking next year I might try things again with an RMR instead of a Delta point and mount it forward of the BUIS as opposed to in back of it. The biggest majority of my dislike has been the optic. I may play around with different size MOA dots as well.
But to anyone following this thread I'd like to reiterate that I was not displeased with the quality of the work performed. I would recommend David's services to anyone.
Wayneard3413
12-22-10, 19:28
How long are these kinds of shots?
thanks,
Okie John
The farthest I have shot this pistol/optic combo at is just a hair over 100 yards. As long as you do your part working the trigger then it is quite easy to land hits in the upper chest area of a VTAC target at that distance.
Granted I am far from a top pistol shot but I am pretty happy with results like that. I am sure a more skilled shooter could extend those ranges out quite a bit.
Approximately 1500 since I received it back in Late August/Early September.
Thanks for clarifying. The reason I asked is because the first time I ran an RDS on a pistol, I absolutely hated it. It took
500+ rounds before I started to warm up to it. However, after spending considerable time with an RMR on my FNP .45
Tactical, I can't imagine not having it. I am considerably faster on target, more accurate at longer distances and very
confident with the quality of the optic itself.
http://www.gearsector.com/img/misc/forum/fn/01.jpg
I'm thinking next year I might try things again with an RMR instead of a Delta point and mount it forward of the BUIS as opposed to in back of it. The biggest majority of my dislike has been the optic. I may play around with different size MOA dots as well.
I think it would be worth the time and effort to give it another go with the RMR. I haven't used the Delta point, so I have
no frame of reference with regard to that optic, however, I am really enjoying the RMR.
Yeah I was really originally wanting an RMR but the Delta's were just coming online as an option and getting good reviews so I thought I'd try it. 50/50 shot you know?
I am actually looking forward to starting over and running the opposite direction with an RMR and rear mounted BUIS. If I don't like it on the second go around it'll be an easy switch back to plate it over and return to a set of Heinie's or Warren's.
Sandman751
12-23-10, 08:48
David!
You're a damn fine shooter and I respect your dedication to the shooting sports. As I stated at the beginning of my post. I know for a fact the RDS enhances our capability and it works. I know this for a fact being a user of the Aimpoint RDS and confronting the elephant with it. I'm all for them as long as they are utilized properly. My concern was the neglect of the fundamentals and the irons, which is what the operator will have to resort to if the RDS hits the crapper. An even worse scenario is police administrators touting the RDS as the "fix it all" solution for more serious underlying proficiency issues.
There are many fine LE instructors out there. But, I've also seen my share of incompetent LE instructors that are in the job for the sole purpose of getting their ticket punched and go along with whatever the brass dictates. I have seen issues with everything from weapon/equipment selection to training packages at LE agencies that are perplexing to say the least. Our men & women on the front lines deserve better. The training community needs to make sure that the RDS is utilized as a tactical augmentation tool and not as a fix for underlying deficiencies. I hope this clears up my direction on the issue.
Take Care!
Eric
By the way!
Merry Christmas to All and a Happy & Prosperous New Year!
If you develop a shooter that trains strictly with an RDS and one that trains with irons, there's no way in hell that the RDS shooter will be a better shooter, period. I'll argue this point until I take a permanent dirt nap. This is where the instruction professional comes into the equation at the military and LE levels because we need to make sure that we devote sufficient (actually more) training time to the irons.
.
I have found that shooting with a dot gives me a tremendous amount of feedback on my trigger press and recoil control. That dot shows you a lot more than iron sights do. what you do with that info is what will make the difference
The one problem was that I was bottomed out on adjustment and still shooting very low when using the mount.
.
They make 1 degree shims to resolve this issue
one, maybe you mentioned it and I missed it. I've only intermittently kept up with this thread. Can you tell us what you didn't like about the Deltapoint? My only experience with these setups was the Bowie M&P with the Deltapoint and I loved the setup, so I'm curious to hear specifically what you didn't like.
The farthest I have shot this pistol/optic combo at is just a hair over 100 yards. As long as you do your part working the trigger then it is quite easy to land hits in the upper chest area of a VTAC target at that distance.
Granted I am far from a top pistol shot but I am pretty happy with results like that. I am sure a more skilled shooter could extend those ranges out quite a bit.
Thanks for your answer. I made some hits at those ranges with irons when my eyes and I were younger, and I look forward to being able to do it again. But I need to master the Glock trigger first...
Okie John
My little addition to this thread....
I got intrigued at the idea of having the same sight picture as my Aimpoint equipped rifles and decided to give it a shot. I picked up a Jpoint from a friend and ordered one of the rear sight mounts.
The height over bore issue really had me hunting for the dot and I found that I had to make sure that my draw was spot on to make sure I could spot the dot before full extension.
I took the pistol so equipped to a RskTkr Consulting pistol class to really wring it out. While I felt that it was slightly slowing me down on close shots due to not really being able to follow the front sight out it was still rather quick. I managed to take top shooter honors at that class and I think other than simply following the advice and tips of the instructors that the optic really helped me out.
The one problem was that I was bottomed out on adjustment and still shooting very low when using the mount. It was also impossible to co-witness the front with that mounting solution as well.
I sent the optic home with one of the RskTkr staff and he was able to mill a Caspian slide for the Jpoint. I have only had it out for a few range sessions since then but so far it is working great.
With practice (lots and lots of dry fire) I have found it to be very quick. An added side benifit is that it is now so easy to connect on rather long distance shots that it almost feels like cheating.
The one issue I have is that the Jpoint isn't really the most solid optic in the world. The plastic construction leaves a little to be desired IMO. I have already put a small crack on one side of the housing.
It will go with me to a few more classes in the coming months and if all goes well I will have my M&P milled as well. That one will probably have me digging a bit deeper in the pocket and picking up a RMR instead.
What size dot do you have in your Jpoint?
Wayneard3413
12-27-10, 12:14
JohnN,
It is a 8MOA model. I tried the 4MOA first and found the dot was a bit too small for my tastes.
The larger dot seems much easier to pick up in a hurry.
JP no longer makes the 8MOA version so I am kind of worried about what will happen if this thing goes TU.
Given the interest in how the dot equipped slide works, and how many people already have a G17, it would be great if someone had a red dot equipped slide for rent, that you could plop on your lower for a week or two evaluation.
I'm really interested in this concept. My eyes have gotten really bad in the last few years. I'm considering getting them fixed, but want the degradation to stabilize somewhat before I do. Right now it's kind of tricky. It's really only my close up vision that's bad. I have a set of Transitions shooting glasses set up with monovision, which works well on the range. It doesn't work as well on the street. It really screws with your depth perception if you try to drive with them on. I usually just slip an arm into my shirt pocket and put them on before I get out of the car. Way less than ideal. :(
I looked at my duty holster last night (Safariland 6360) and it doesn't look like the front of it could be cut down enough due to the ALS system. I love this holster and would hate to switch just to try this setup. Has anyone tried it?
The 6004 and other SLS models are easy to modify, but so far, we have not figured out a way to get ALS holsters to work with RDS equipped slides.
GLOCKMASTER
12-27-10, 14:20
The 6004 and other SLS models are easy to modify, but so far, we have not figured out a way to get ALS holsters to work with RDS equipped slides.
Considering the design of the holster that going to be tough if not impossible to do. If there was enough demand I'm sure Bill Rogers could engineer it.
Hmm, not what I wanted to hear. I may still pursue this on my off duty G-19. If it works out, then I might consider switching duty holsters.
Given the interest in how the dot equipped slide works, and how many people already have a G17, it would be great if someone had a red dot equipped slide for rent, that you could plop on your lower for a week or two evaluation.
Sign me up for this.
Okie John
NCPatrolAR
12-29-10, 14:18
Anyone know of a sight and mounting plate thats available for the Beretta 92? I know the slide cant be milled (at least not that I'm aware of), but I figure there should be a mount that replaces the rear sight.
Don Robison
12-29-10, 17:12
Anyone know of a sight and mounting plate thats available for the Beretta 92? I know the slide cant be milled (at least not that I'm aware of), but I figure there should be a mount that replaces the rear sight.
I think about the best you'll do until something else comes along is a Doctor red dot mount with and RMR adapter plate.
Bowie Tactical
12-30-10, 01:00
Anyone know of a sight and mounting plate thats available for the Beretta 92? I know the slide cant be milled (at least not that I'm aware of), but I figure there should be a mount that replaces the rear sight.
The Leupold deltapoint kit version comes with mounting hardware for the 92.
David Bowie
NCPatrolAR
12-30-10, 08:11
thanks guys
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-06-11, 23:53
I'm within pissing distance of being 40 and my eyes are not what they used to be. I put a RDS on a bridge mount for my Sig and shot it versus my 1911 with irons. At an indoor range with poor lighting I can shoot fine at 7 yards, but at 15 I can't pull my vision back and forth fast enough to get a good sight picture and be sure my target. Pure front sight focus just gets me lost on far targets. The Red dot, even with that high sight line solved all that. I was amazed at how much better I grouped shots.
I know gear isn't the answer, but a man's gotta know his limitations. It made such a dramatic and instant change that until they come up with visual Viagra it looks like I'm going to be an Open shooter.
Picked up a Dual Illuminated RMR 7MOA on the way out, just gotta figure out what slide to scalp.
I shot a 2010 gen 3 G19 RTF 2 equipped with a Trijicon 8 MOA RMR in a recent "Shooting on the Move" class with no problems related to the pistol or RDS.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5293/5532996040_1c457fe549_z.jpg
I'll be machining one of my M&P9 slides for an RMR today then it's off to be Nickle Boron coated along with the rails.
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