View Full Version : Why the civilian trend toward mil 1st line vs. LE duty belts?
Somewhere around here we have a thread or two on first-line belts, and those threads have inspired me to set something up for my own use.
As I surf around the web looking at various pouches, belts, etc., I seem to keep coming back to the Eagle LE line of belts/pouches as best suited for my use.
This made me wonder, what am I missing? Why does the predominate focus of non-LEO civilians seem to trend towards the military setups and not the LE?
The MOLLE options, the padding. Everyone wants to hang multiple carbine and pistol mag pouches, they want a drop leg holster and they want a drop pouch and some utility pouch(es). Then once it gets weighed down they add the suspenders.
Pat_Rogers
08-08-07, 07:54
Rob- pretty simple. Cop bets support what a cop does during his shift. Pistol, pistol mags, radio, handcuffs, latex gloves etc.
Tac cops gear mimics (to an extent) mil gear because of the long gun and tactiacl mission requirements.
Short answer- mil gear meets the reqs better then cop gear.
Also, neither cops nor mil wear yellow visors....:p
my plan is this
Eagle Duty belt (http://triadtactical.com/?mainURL=/store/category/a34g/Belts_and_Belt_Kit_First_Line.html)
Blade-Tech Sting Ray (http://blade-tech.com/SRB-Sting-Ray-Belt-Holster-IDPA-Approved-pr-939.html#product_images) kydex holster
Eagle evidence pouch (http://triadtactical.com/?mainURL=/store/category/a34g/Belts_and_Belt_Kit_First_Line.html) (utilized as dump pouch)
2-3 Eagle Single Duty Mag Pouch, M-4 (http://triadtactical.com/?mainURL=/store/category/a34g/Belts_and_Belt_Kit_First_Line.html)
2 Eagle Single Duty Mag Pouch, 45/22 (http://triadtactical.com/?mainURL=/store/category/a34g/Belts_and_Belt_Kit_First_Line.html)
Patrick Aherne
08-08-07, 11:57
Also, cop belts were designed when the average copper carried a revolver, two dump pouches or a cartridge slide, a handcuff case and a baton ring. They work pretty well for that load, but even then alot of the old ones had the d-rings and garrison strap on their Sam Browne belt. When you hang alot of weight off the cop belt, it sucks on your back and hips.
The military stuff seems to be more comfortable and better at supporting weight than the LEO belt. Probably because it was designed with load bearing in mind and suspenders.
However, never let function get in the way of appearances. I think I will go to the vets and weigh my belt with USP 45, two mags, X26, Kenwood TK-390, cuffs, PL L2 flashlight, glove case/gloves, Monadnock expandable baton, Mk III OC, etc. and see how much it weighs.
It's funny how you won't see a carpenter without suspenders on a belt that weighs about 15 pounds, but every cop I know carries more weight on their belt and can't use suspenders until they get injured and get a doctor's note.
I would like to try the Eagle padded molle belt with suspenders, but it would never get approved at my department.
I predict that our insurance providers will make better suspenders and belt mandatory, due to back injuries, before I retire in 15 years.
Unfortunately, what cops wear is many times dictated by upper management and upper management is concerned about about what the city council thinks. I know some city council members who are against looking too militant because it makes our patrol guys "less approachable". Utter BS, I know.
As far as suspenders go, our captains just don't like the way they look, so - no suspenders for patrol guys.
Sidewinder6
08-08-07, 13:45
OK, along these lines, Utility belts worn by police officers have 'keepers' that lashed the Utility belt to your pants belt if you didnt get the velcro stuff.
Assuming one is considering a tactical utility belt for training, is there any conventional wisdom from lessons learned here about these things? This usually is not an issue until you wear these belts sitting in a vehicle or moving around in interesting and athletic ways. Any thoughts here are appreciated.
As usual, both Aherne and Rogers (hereafter "The Pat's" :p ) are correct. The needs of a sworn officer are much different than .mil, or your average sheepdog. In fact, the majority of what is on a cop's waist is in the way of efficient firearm manipulation, mag changes, and general physical well-being (not many vet cops with "good" backs). What I see on a daily basis is; a huge radio, Taser, two + cuffs, two pistol mags, Asp, glove pouch, pepper spray, Stramlight X20, and a pistol. The majority of weight and real estate on a cop's belt is used up by equipment that is to be used, in many instances, in lieu of deadly force.
Law enforcement officers are held to a different standard as regular citizens, and are expected to be able to handle everything but the toppling of a government without using deadly force. That's why there are Asps, OC, and Tasers abound. The required training is supposed to make LEOs a viable threat to evildoers, yet politically correct, ambassadors of good will. It sucks, but it is, what it is.
As a private citizen, or warfighter, you are trying to accomplish a mission and go home. Your first line should really be a fighting line. Your belt should give you the means to fight off the enemy and live another day.
Also of note, most agencies consider cost, and perception more than value.
I'm not talking about the equipment on the belt as the types and styles of belts and pouches.
I have no interest in a big Motorola, cuffs, asp, taser, etc. I'm just looking to put 2-3 AR mags, 2 pistol mags, a dump pouch, a pistol, and maybe a knife on the belt using the Eagle "duty" gear I linked to above.
I guess I'll go ahead and order the stuff, and if it works great, if not it goes in the big box of crap I've tried that doesn't work.:D
Rob, do yourself a favor and look into the Blackwater Gear IO belt. It is slightly more bulky looking than a duty belt, but it's based off the Crye blast belt and is oh so comfy.
This made me wonder, what am I missing? Why does the predominate focus of non-LEO civilians seem to trend towards the military setups and not the LE?
Silly me. I thought I provided a concise answer to the question in the original post.
I am sure that some appreciate all of the threads you start as some form of entertainment. But if you ask a direct question and get direct answers, WTF are you complaining about? If you have questions about specific gear, ask away. If you want others to qualify your gear choices, ask away. But for God's sake man, get to the point. I have better things to do than type sincere replies to folks that really don't care for answers, only posting to see their own words in print. You asked about first line gear and received some very good replies. It isn't anyone else's fault if you asked the wrong question.
Further, I did address the "types and styles of belts and pouches" comment when I wrote "most agencies consider cost, and perception more than value". :rolleyes:
Rob,
Something else to cloud your decision making process: Look at Eagle's padded MOLLE belt before you spend the money on their duty belt. I've had both and find the MOLLE belt much more comfortable and versatile.
I've been running mine with a Paraclete TX-II that holds 3 rifle and 3 pistol mags, a dump pouch, and a 6004 with the shroud chopped to ride high. Simple, comfortable, and I'm grabbing for things in more or less the same place I grab for them in everyday concealed-carry mode.
Silly me. I thought I provided a concise answer to the question in the original post.
I am sure that some appreciate all of the threads you start as some form of entertainment. But if you ask a direct question and get direct answers, WTF are you complaining about? If you have questions about specific gear, ask away. If you want others to qualify your gear choices, ask away. But for God's sake man, get to the point. I have better things to do than type sincere replies to folks that really don't care for answers, only posting to see their own words in print. You asked about first line gear and received some very good replies. It isn't anyone else's fault if you asked the wrong question.
Further, I did address the "types and styles of belts and pouches" comment when I wrote "most agencies consider cost, and perception more than value". :rolleyes:
Then how about you do yourself a favor and not bother reading OR replying to my posts, since it apparently frustrates you so.
oh, and double :rolleyes: :rolleyes: to you.
:p
Rob,
Something else to cloud your decision making process: Look at Eagle's padded MOLLE belt before you spend the money on their duty belt. I've had both and find the MOLLE belt much more comfortable and versatile.
I already have the duty belt and pad from some long-forgotten scheme to rig up a belt, so I thought I'd ride that out.
I saw that belt online today shopping around and almost went that route in spite of already owning the other belt, but then I got to wondering about holster setups and figured I'd stick with the duty belt and see how it works out.
I'm grabbing for things in more or less the same place I grab for them in everyday concealed-carry mode.
that's pretty much my goal. I want to get the holster in more or less the same place as my concealed holster rides, the mags in more or less the same place they are when I'm carrying, etc.
Rob,
Hold off on ordering the belt. I have one, actually my wifes, that should fit you. Mens small- medium right?
I am interested in the padded Molle belt from eagle... But I might just try the belt pad first.
Jack
KiloSierra
08-08-07, 19:55
It's funny how you won't see a carpenter without suspenders on a belt that weighs about 15 pounds, but every cop I know carries more weight on their belt and can't use suspenders until they get injured and get a doctor's note.
I would like to try the Eagle padded molle belt with suspenders, but it would never get approved at my department
I predict that our insurance providers will make better suspenders and belt mandatory, due to back injuries, before I retire in 15 years.
Speaking personally as a cop who also happens to have formerly worked as a carpenter, the first thing most do is get rid of the belt unless working somewhere where there's not a convenient place to leave it, or take everything off except the tape, hammer, and nail pouch.
I personally like my departments reason for not allowing suspenders: "We need to look professional. We don't need to look like hillbilly's"
Never mind. I read you alredy have the duty belt..
I do not like the evidence pouch as a dump pouch. I think it is too floppy. I have a Recce gear one I like. Well, nevermind about that either. Try the CSM if you don't have one of those.
Be nice!
the1911fan
08-09-07, 01:46
I personally like my departments reason for not allowing suspenders: "We need to look professional. We don't need to look like hillbilly's"
You can dress up a hillbilly....he's still a hillbilly.
Looks can be deceiving
Anyone can look professional...reality of ability/competence goes way beyond looks
Try the CSM if you don't have one of those.
I kept thinking of ordering one of those, and always skipped it because it didn't fold up. I like the Eagle because it packs into such a small package. But I see that the CSM (http://www.csmgear.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=droppch&cat=10&page=1&search=&since=&status=)now has a strap to roll it up at least so I think I'll order one.
HolyRoller
08-09-07, 14:30
Also, cop belts were designed when the average copper carried a revolver, two dump pouches or a cartridge slide, a handcuff case and a baton ring. They work pretty well for that load, but even then alot of the old ones had the d-rings and garrison strap on their Sam Browne belt. When you hang alot of weight off the cop belt, it sucks on your back and hips.
The military stuff seems to be more comfortable and better at supporting weight than the LEO belt. Probably because it was designed with load bearing in mind and suspenders.
However, never let function get in the way of appearances. I think I will go to the vets and weigh my belt with USP 45, two mags, X26, Kenwood TK-390, cuffs, PL L2 flashlight, glove case/gloves, Monadnock expandable baton, Mk III OC, etc. and see how much it weighs.
It's funny how you won't see a carpenter without suspenders on a belt that weighs about 15 pounds, but every cop I know carries more weight on their belt and can't use suspenders until they get injured and get a doctor's note.
I would like to try the Eagle padded molle belt with suspenders, but it would never get approved at my department.
I predict that our insurance providers will make better suspenders and belt mandatory, due to back injuries, before I retire in 15 years.
Excellent post from someone who knows what he's talking about.
Now that's a great approach--tell the workers' comp insurer that it will reduce their payouts. Everybody's been scared to death of "liability" (mostly imagined) for fifty years, resulting in countless appallingly dumb policies, so it's about time "liability" worked for us.
I don't even want to know how much my belt weighs, but here goes: Two cuffs and carriers, 2#; 1911 and holster, 3#; ASP and holder, 1#; brick radio and pouch, 1#; two 1911 mags (one of them unauthorized, but that's another post) in a double pouch, 1#; 9P flashlight in a baton holder plus plastic can of OC, 1#; belt and keepers, 1#: well, only about 10 pounds, max 12. Since I'm an auxiliary, they don't give me a Taser. Also, we do a lot more riding around than walking. Last but not least, I make it a point to hit the gym and work my lower back.
All told, I suppose I'm getting off very light. I haven't felt put-upon by my duty belt, and it worked well in the AK class last weekend, except for making it nearly impossible to fold my silly self in half for a good sitting position. On my own time, I've trained some with the plate carrier in place, with plates, and all gear is deconflicted, meaning that I can get to everything without it interfering with anything else. I see no need for a drop holster, especially after (over)hearing a couple of senior officers discussing one of my contemporaries and his "SWAT sh*t" drop holster, so probably that individual is not one I should be emulating.
Still and all, I'd sure like to have suspenders.
John_Wayne777
08-09-07, 15:13
As I surf around the web looking at various pouches, belts, etc., I seem to keep coming back to the Eagle LE line of belts/pouches as best suited for my use.
That's what I use:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0221.jpg?t=1185371715
I have an Eagle plate carrier, but it isn't as user friendly as the basic belt rig (in my opinion) for basic ammo carrying tasks.
With military and some LE guys, they have to put on body armor...so why not have the body armor carry stuff too?
Rob
You may want to look into Tactical Taylor and there rigs/belts/etc. We have switched from Eagle to Tactical Taylor due to availability but after putting the TT gear through the paces we like it better than Eagle and the cost is a little less. I would also recommend CSM Dump Pouches over the Eagle. Don't get me wrong, Eagle makes a great product but Tactical Taylor should be considered (IMHO).
Rob for my course rig I use an inner/outer combo with a couple of pistol mags, I used to have a pile of stuff on my first line kit but as I began training and looking at what operational guys used I noticed they had very little kit on their first line gear. KevinB told me at a TR course that first line to him meant " I'm going to take a piss and I have my gun with me". So I settled on Mil stuff as it rolls around the dirt better and I have the bulk of my gear on my Eagle CIRAS. As you you see from my work rig it is really heavy as my outer carrier has only the most basic pocket set up so everything goes on the belt. I keep a second set of cuffs in my vest in addition to latex gloves, note book, and surefire E2E, the issue lights suck ass.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c229/sgaaliyah/DutyRigvs.1stline.jpg
Whats the width of the Eagle duty belt? 2"? 1.75"?
Linea_de_Fuego
08-09-07, 23:53
Whats the width of the Eagle duty belt? 2"? 1.75"?
They are 2".
They are 2".
I confirmed this with Ben Lenett from Eagle before I ordered my holster and it is correct.
Also, cop belts were designed when the average copper carried a revolver, two dump pouches or a cartridge slide, a handcuff case and a baton ring. They work pretty well for that load, but even then alot of the old ones had the d-rings and garrison strap on their Sam Browne belt. When you hang alot of weight off the cop belt, it sucks on your back and hips.
The military stuff seems to be more comfortable and better at supporting weight than the LEO belt. Probably because it was designed with load bearing in mind and suspenders.
However, never let function get in the way of appearances. I think I will go to the vets and weigh my belt with USP 45, two mags, X26, Kenwood TK-390, cuffs, PL L2 flashlight, glove case/gloves, Monadnock expandable baton, Mk III OC, etc. and see how much it weighs.
It's funny how you won't see a carpenter without suspenders on a belt that weighs about 15 pounds, but every cop I know carries more weight on their belt and can't use suspenders until they get injured and get a doctor's note.
I would like to try the Eagle padded molle belt with suspenders, but it would never get approved at my department.
I predict that our insurance providers will make better suspenders and belt mandatory, due to back injuries, before I retire in 15 years.
I can relate to all that except for the carpenter example. Depending on what they are doing a carpenter can be carrying way more weight than that and no we all dont wear suspenders. Seems like only the older guys do.
I love my set up.. works great in Class or when it's just me on the range... only thing I'm changing is the Roly Poly to a CSM.. the RollyPolly is to shallow and stuff comes out when I don't want it to..
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/harv24/IMG_1188.jpg
It's funny how you won't see a carpenter without suspenders on a belt that weighs about 15 pounds, but every cop I know carries more weight on their belt and can't use suspenders until they get injured and get a doctor's note.
i thought this was funny cuz i used to hang sheetrock and frame steel structures, at times i carried more than 15 pounds as in screws, hand tools and a screwgun in a holster, sometimes dragging around a cord, and for some reason the suspenders never did me much good, i always wore the belt tight. i have an ass to hold up my pants. :cool:
For both matches and classes, I just add/replace stuff to my the same belt I wear daily (and I always wear suspenders now). I carry about 25 lbs. of stuff all the time, including what I have in my pockets.
I've noticed that almost everyone who posts pictures of their belts puts their pistol magazines closer to the belt buckle, and rifle mags further back. Is that a simple logistics issue?
I do the opposite, since I prefer to wear my pistol magazines in the same place I have them every day (at about 0900). I have a bad shoulder on that side, so everything else has to go forward of it, which puts rifle mags in between the pistol mags and my belt buckle.
CarlosDJackal
08-11-07, 20:37
If they would let me wear a MOLLE vest, thigh holster, etc. for duty use; I would discard ny duty belt in a minute. JM2CW.
NCPatrolAR
08-11-07, 21:13
I do the opposite, since I prefer to wear my pistol magazines in the same place I have them every day (at about 0900). I have a bad shoulder on that side, so everything else has to go forward of it, which puts rifle mags in between the pistol mags and my belt buckle.
At work I carry my pistol mags next to my belt buckle, so they go in the same place on any of my tac gear. Rifle mags are placed along my 9 oclock since they arent my "go-to" rifle mags to start with. Also, having rifle mags on my side, makes it easier to bend over.
Stupid question - How do you use the Eagle Duty belt? With a standard belt and belt keepers?
Sidewinder6
08-16-07, 10:29
Stupid question - How do you use the Eagle Duty belt? With a standard belt and belt keepers?
I was curious about that myself--bump
Erick Gelhaus
08-16-07, 11:06
fwiw, I wear an Eagle duty belt for regular uniformed LE work. In that role, I do use keepers to hold the belt in place.
I have another Eagle belt with a belt pad and suspenders. I do not use or need to use keepers with it.
Sidewinder6
08-16-07, 11:15
Thanks Erick
Erick,
Which would you recommend for a class? I'm looking at running 2 1911 mags, 2-3 AR mags, holster and dump pouch.
Erick Gelhaus
08-16-07, 19:34
What kind of class? What is normal role - uniformed LE, tactical L/E, Mil, decent normal human being / earth person?
We had Pat out here for a carbine class for my guys earlier this year. Most of the guys that are "just" patrol ran their duty belts and went from there. The guys on SWAT did the majority, if not all of, the class in some of their gear. We had a mil reserve officer running fully jocked up.
Unless its 'a have to carry enough' gear to get through the training, I'd say go with something that is practical / relevant for your reality. Whatever it is.
Sidewinder6
08-16-07, 20:14
Thank You!. I am a big believer in lighter the better which comes from three decades of carrying way too much junk from point A to Point B. Point B NOT being on Fordors finest list. The thing I am wrestling with now if Black Gun Disease and the whole jock up for training. Before you know it, I will be trying to fit in my old uniforms again!
thompson1774
01-08-08, 01:24
The other fun thing that construction workers don't end up doing while wearing that tool belt is having jump from a patrol car, chase down a subject, while jumping walls, running through backyards and alleys, and then fight to subdue said maggot. All of this fun is done while carrying about 25 lbs worth of stuff, that is used little, but if you should need it.... The closest thing to suspenders is the suicide strap (diagnal strap-think Wermacht) that we are allowed to wear... :rolleyes:
Hoplophile
01-08-08, 13:31
I do the opposite, since I prefer to wear my pistol magazines in the same place I have them every day (at about 0900). I have a bad shoulder on that side, so everything else has to go forward of it, which puts rifle mags in between the pistol mags and my belt buckle.
Doesn't that get in the way of bending at the waist? Does your configuration allow you to drop into kneeling?
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