View Full Version : H&K P30 Trigger?
Love the the feel of this pistol. Absolutely hate the trigger. I know it will never be a 1911, but can much be done to make a significant difference? I am refering to the S model that can be carried cocked and locked. I would be happy if it could match an out of the box Glock trigger.
Hunter Rose
11-27-10, 12:40
I would be happy if it could match an out of the box Glock trigger.
Different firing system, different beast. Specifically what are you trying to improve on the trigger i.e SA,DA, reset? If you want to turn it into the short, extremely positive reset of the Glocks I don't think you'll ever be satisfied.
For HK trigger work I'd recommend Bill Springfield. He does excellent work and can easily smooth up/lighten the action if that's what you want. He can also add the overtravel stop found on the USP Match triggers to help with reset.
I agree with you on the trigger not being the best. I'm loving the ergo improvements of my P30LS over my USP, but wish it just came with the USPs trigger (or better yet the trigger out of my HK45!)
Love the the feel of this pistol. Absolutely hate the trigger. I know it will never be a 1911, but can much be done to make a significant difference? I am refering to the S model that can be carried cocked and locked. I would be happy if it could match an out of the box Glock trigger.
You can send it to Bill Springfield. The reset won't be like a Glocks but the pull will be smoother and the break will be crisp. I'm speaking from hear-say as I've never had it done. I thought the out of the box SA was just fine except the reset could be better
I agree w/ the OP, trigger is (to me) not a lot of fun. Interestingly enough though.. my P30 is already on the way to Bill's for his trigger job and the overtravel screw. For a lowly $78 I figured it was worth a shot.
I had just ran my stock P30 in a pistol class, and the 'reset-drill' is really where I decided to send it off. I'm hoping for some improvement, but I don't expect a miracle.
Lucky Strike
11-27-10, 13:20
I don't have a SA/DA P30 but I do have a LEM version.
I sent mine to Grayguns.....they do a whole action tuning package thing that includes a trigger reset reduction. It brought the reset down 50% in length and is positive feeling (not as positive as a glock but better then an M&P). I really like it..very smooth.
Not as good as my Springer Precision tuned XD trigger (which is the best trigger on a striker fired gun I've ever shot) but I like shooting the P30 due to the heavenly ergonomics.
Downside to sending it to Grayguns is the cost ($300) and the wait time (about 4 months).
Downside to sending it to Grayguns is the cost ($300) and the wait time (about 4 months).
Yep! I can't knock his work or rep, but I thoight I try Bill out first.
Maybe I'm crazy but I find the DA and SA pull of my P-30 quite usable, but then again I like the trigger of my Beretta M9.
variablebinary
11-27-10, 17:00
The DA/SA on HK's in general is awful.
I hope HK does another striker pistol.
Hunter Rose
11-27-10, 17:11
The DA/SA on HK's in general is awful.
I hope HK does another striker pistol.
The SA on my HK45 is very nice for a service pistol. Configured as a Variant 9 w/ no de-cock capability I have no complaint. The P30LS SA is mushy w/ a LOT of take up in comparison. Feels like some of the BHPs I have owned. SA on stock USPs is better, though the DA on P30 feels less heavy and smoother.
The triggers on P7s are very nice though. Hopefully a good trigger will find its way onto the striker fired P40/P30 Variant rumored to be under development.
Maybe I'm crazy but I find the DA and SA pull of my P-30 quite usable, but then again I like the trigger of my Beretta M9.
The pulls don't bother me either, i just have a prob with the reset distance. Bill said he may be able to shorten it by 20%, and as it stands now, anything is better than nothing.
The trigger is the worst part of the gun, but it's hardly the worst ever. It's perfectly usable. I've hit accurate .20 splits on 10 yard targets before, and I'm hardly the worlds most proficient shooter.
Just dry fire the DA trigger a bunch, then you'll think the SA trigger is awesome. :sarcastic:
Magic_Salad0892
11-27-10, 22:42
Maybe I'm crazy but I find the DA and SA pull of my P-30 quite usable, but then again I like the trigger of my Beretta M9.
If a Glock and a 1911 had a child there would be two outcomes.
Beretta M9
HK 45
IMHO.
Lately I've been really diggin' on the 92 Compact ''L'' model. (Or Centurion)
If a Glock and a 1911 had a child there would be two outcomes.
Beretta M9
HK 45
IMHO.
Lately I've been really diggin' on the 92 Compact ''L'' model. (Or Centurion)
The 92 is based on the Walther P38.
GermanSynergy
11-27-10, 23:18
Get the LEM components installed in your pistol and have a relatively smooth and consistent trigger pull. Going to have this installed in my HK 45 as soon as I can get the parts.
I guess I'll pass on the The P30. Hopefully the rumors are true and they build a striker fired pistol with a good trigger.
Magic_Salad0892
11-27-10, 23:25
The 92 is based on the Walther P38.
Suck it. :big_boss:
The trigger press on the HK's P30, 45C, all of them can be made smooth. I do them all the time. Or put 3,000 or 4,000 rounds through them and they'll smoth themselves up very well. Same with the LEM.
They are made to be durable and run many rounds, Not glass smooth out of the box, but can get there.
Over the past two and a half years, I've put over 12k rounds through my P30; of which the past 3k have been after I installed a LEM trigger with the V4 spring set.
Personally, I hate the LEM. I know it is a training issue, but if I don't sit down and dry fire every night and make it to the range every week I always dip my wrists when the LEM takes up before it breaks.
When configured as a V3, I shot it well, at least after the first shot. Or until the either the slide release bar would heat up so hot that I couldn't put my forward support thumb on it or my trigger finger was fatigued and I would start dipping into the trough on trigger guard.
I bought an M&P9 today and after only 250 rounds at the range I think I've found my new go-to 9mm pistol..
The trigger press on the HK's P30, 45C, all of them can be made smooth. I do them all the time. Or put 3,000 or 4,000 rounds through them and they'll smoth themselves up very well. Same with the LEM.
They are made to be durable and run many rounds, Not glass smooth out of the box, but can get there.
My problem with the P30 trigger had nothing to do with it being smooth or not. It was the the long reset and travel before the break on reset. The other issue for me was the slide stop that takes up the whole side of the frame, not allowing me to rest my support hand thumb on it. So i replaced the P30 with a G19. Im hoping the striker fired "P30" eliminates these issues.
I have a P30 in .40 S&W with V1 LEM trigger. For a few years I have had a P2000 in 9mm, also with LEM.
Excepting a good 1911 trigger, I shoot the LEM better than anything else I have tried.
I recommend the P30 LEM with no reservations and would buy it again to day.
And I am a certifiable "gun whore", having owned more different weapons than I will ever admit to.
chillindrdude
11-29-10, 12:43
i, too, recently got a P30. Having been shooting my 1911 for awhile, I made the rookie mistake of thumb-over the slide release and the gun wouldn't lock back on empty. It was a simple readjust. And after 300rds and dry firing, I'm starting to get the hang of the SA trigger. My only gripe is that the trigger shoe is alittle too scalloped for my liking. I like my trigger profile to be more flat. Nevertheless, my bullet holes are starting to migrate to the X and 10 rings again. :D
i am thinking about a trigger job, but I personally don't want a trigger pull less than 5lbs for a defense/carry gun.
I find that the P30 is especially receptive to the trigger slapping technique that advanced competitive shooters refer to. The "finding the link/feel the reset" is not a productive venture on the P30 in my experience. Hosing away gets better results for me. Go to Brian Enos forum and consult those guys; they will explain the technique to you. The "mush" and "slop" in the P30 and overtravel after break point becomes an advantage under this technique.
This technique will not work on the stock LEM for the reason that the trigger stacks its weight all the way to the heavy break point--unless you lighten it up to the 4lbs of the SA trigger.
So which LEM variant would be best? The V1 appeals to me because of the 4.5 lbs trigger, but without trying it I'm not sure. It will be used for appendix carry.
P30 V1:
Innovative safety trigger with concealed cocking piece in the spurrless hammer, without de-cocking button. Constant LEM trigger pull of approximately 4.5 pounds (20 Newtons) and defined let-off point.
P30 V2:
Like P30 V1 but with LEM trigger pull of approximately 7.3 pounds (32.5N).
P30 V4:
Like P30 V1, however LEM trigger pull approximately 6.2 pounds (27.5N)
gtmtnbiker98
12-03-10, 11:51
So which LEM variant would be best? The V1 appeals to me because of the 4.5 lbs trigger, but without trying it I'm not sure. It will be used for appendix carry.
P30 V1:
Innovative safety trigger with concealed cocking piece in the spurrless hammer, without de-cocking button. Constant LEM trigger pull of approximately 4.5 pounds (20 Newtons) and defined let-off point.
P30 V2:
Like P30 V1 but with LEM trigger pull of approximately 7.3 pounds (32.5N).
P30 V4:
Like P30 V1, however LEM trigger pull approximately 6.2 pounds (27.5N)You'll more than likely only find the V2 at your dealer and the other variants are achieved through spring replacement.
So which LEM variant would be best?
A striker fired variant would be the best! :D
Dear Santa,
Please kick the H&K engineers in the ass and bring me a striker fired P30 for Christmas. I've been a good boy all year long (except for short changing that hooker in Dallas) and I deserve a striker fired P30 under the tree this year.
Sincerely,
M4arc
A striker fired variant would be the best! :D
This is what I've been waiting for. I just hope they will put a good trigger in it, shorten the slide stops, smooth out the inner trigger guard(the trough isn't needed).If not, I still don't see what it will offer over the M&P and Glock. I can't see spending $300 extra and still having to send it off for a trigger job.This coming from someone who owned one.
I'd like a P30S 9mm 'Tactical' with a threaded barrel. That would be suh-weet.
Fire_Medic
12-03-10, 12:34
I'd like a P30S 9mm 'Tactical' with a threaded barrel. That would be suh-weet.
Buy a P30L with a safety and send the barrel to ADCO, problem solved.
:D
A striker fired variant would be the best! :D
Dear Santa,
Please kick the H&K engineers in the ass and bring me a striker fired P30 for Christmas. I've been a good boy all year long (except for short changing that hooker in Dallas) and I deserve a striker fired P30 under the tree this year.
Sincerely,
M4arc
I too prefer a striker fired pistol, but will feel more comfortable with hammer fired pistol for appendix carry.
I too prefer a striker fired pistol, but will feel more comfortable with hammer fired pistol for appendix carry.
H&K takes a very different approach to their product line. Many companies will develop a firearm design, and then try to sell it to LE/Military or civilian customers. H&K takes a much more conservative approach, and usually doesn't break new ground with a design unless it specifically meets a contract requirement. They are quick to innovate to a military/LE concensus on what should be on a firearm, but they are hesitant to mix up their production lines with too many variants. DA/SA is still the most popular trigger type in most of the world, and most militaries still want an exposed hammer with a second strike ability. It's a smart approach on their part, and has keep them a top tier company for decades.
Please kick the H&K engineers in the ass and bring me a striker fired P30 for Christmas. I've been a good boy all year long (except for short changing that hooker in Dallas) and I deserve a striker fired P30 under the tree this year.
Maybe next Christmas...
HK is working on striker fired P30 (probably will be called P40). Prototype may be presented on next IWA or MiliPol. Bad news is that this pistol might have push button mag release instead of paddle one (on request of LE and Mil customers that find to hard to train for paddle release).
Fire_Medic
12-03-10, 16:57
Maybe next Christmas...
HK is working on striker fired P30 (probably will be called P40). Prototype may be presented on next IWA or MiliPol. Bad news is that this pistol might have push button mag release instead of paddle one (on request of LE and Mil customers that find to hard to train for paddle release).
And that is unfortunate as one of my favorite features of the HK's is that paddle type mag release. Not hard to adjust to and "for me" it's easier dropping a mag with my index finger without having to change my strong hand grip at all.
Just my humble $0.02
And that is unfortunate as one of my favorite features of the HK's is that paddle type mag release. Not hard to adjust to and "for me" it's easier dropping a mag with my index finger without having to change my strong hand grip at all.
Just my humble $0.02
I use middle finger. Fortunately I'm left-handed, so I can use my middle finger on push-button as well. And this is exactly what I do on my competition STI 2011 or when Glock or something else gets in my hands. But HK paddle release is still much better and very fast.
This is what I've been waiting for. I just hope they will put a good trigger in it, shorten the slide stops, smooth out the inner trigger guard(the trough isn't needed).If not, I still don't see what it will offer over the M&P and Glock. I can't see spending $300 extra and still having to send it off for a trigger job.This coming from someone who owned one.
This exactly!
I have my fingers crossed for a striker fired HK. Give it a short reset and I am sold. Lets just hope that this "P40" is not a rumor and will be available sometime within the next year.
crazymoose
12-04-10, 00:16
I, too, would love a striker fired P30. H&K hit really nailed the trigger pull on the P7, and virtually all of their triggers since have been crap. It's a shame, because they make guns that are otherwise excellent.
Im salivating at the prospect of a striker fired P30! Hope HK keeps the paddle mag release, but gets rid of the obtrusive slide release and long trigger reset. This has the potential to be the best combat pistol ever.
Magic_Salad0892
12-04-10, 04:16
Maybe next Christmas...
HK is working on striker fired P30 (probably will be called P40). Prototype may be presented on next IWA or MiliPol. Bad news is that this pistol might have push button mag release instead of paddle one (on request of LE and Mil customers that find to hard to train for paddle release).
Sweet! :)
However, I thoroughly doubt they'll drop the paddle style magazine release.
Sweet! :)
However, I thoroughly doubt they'll drop the paddle style magazine release.
I was thinking that they may just add (removable) button that transfers push on paddle. This would keep magazine compatibility (HK just learned how cool is to make one magazine for different models) and keep everyone happy.
I know I won't be buying a striker HK if they get rid of the paddle release and the slide release. They are both features that are easily fixed with training, and are unique in the market. You want a striker pistol with a push-button release and a small slide stop, get a Glock or MP dammit. Stop messing with my HK. :mad:
I know I won't be buying a striker HK if they get rid of the paddle release and the slide release. They are both features that are easily fixed with training, and are unique in the market. You want a striker pistol with a push-button release and a small slide stop, get a Glock or MP dammit. Stop messing with my HK. :mad:
Im curious what it is you like about the slide release on HK's?
I find it brain-dead simple to operate. Other guns have these tiny slide releases that are harder to hit, or even require you to actuate with your support hand. My thumb only has to go to one place on the gun during a reload, not two. A reputable training school in my area trains everyone to power-stroke because they all use Glocks...
Now don't get me wrong, it's not like they're any slower, as these are all minute differences, I just prefer the HK lever. I don't get why everyone wants to homogenize pistol designs to pretty much variations of the same striker setup.
Magic_Salad0892
12-05-10, 03:53
I was thinking that they may just add (removable) button that transfers push on paddle. This would keep magazine compatibility (HK just learned how cool is to make one magazine for different models) and keep everyone happy.
So, a button magazine that you push forward on instead of pushing in?
Something to that effect.
Another option if you want to keep you DA/SA trigger is Bruce Gray at Grayguns. I have a stock V3 P30 and learned just to deal with the trigger but I have had the opportunity to shoot a P30 modified by Bruce and it was a significant improvement over the stock trigger.
Has anyone had trigger work done after a high round count? I'm at 4000+ now on my P30, and the trigger has smoothed out a lot. I wonder how much better it can get (and it doesn't help that I don't know anyone with an HK, let alone one with trigger work).
I would love to get a shorter and more positive reset. The DA pull is still a little gritty (and of course delightfully heavy) and the SA break still creeps a bit, but it's all minor compared to how disappointing the reset is.
So, a button magazine that you push forward on instead of pushing in?
No. You push it in and it pushes cam that push paddle down. HK had in G3 both paddle and that worked in one direction and button that worked in other direction. Something like that, just less bulky :big_boss:
And you can then replace button with one that sits flush with grip and you have effectively same as before. And everyone happy :laugh:
For me, I'd much rather H&K get rid of the large slide release.
Based on most LE and military training now days, the use of the slide release is for administrative purposes or locking the slide back to clear a double feed. You sling shot the slide during a reload, or rub it against part of your body/equipement to get the reload accomplished with one hand. Reason being, a shooting will raise your heart rate from a resting 70bpm to near 200bpm. If you've never been in such a state, you have very little dexterity and little control over complex muscle actions. All you have left is what is referred to as gross motor muscle movements. Large muscle groups still work well, but actions that require a large number of smaller muscles don't work as well. Opening and closing of the hand still works well, but there is great difficulty in maneuvering the fingers around for side ways or diagonal motions. Weaver-type shooting stances or other off set stances also require the use of complex muscle movements......which is why for defensive purposes it is best to train with a squared, symetric stances towards the threat. ATF and DEA also found that under the combat stress courses of fire that their agents did better with reloads using the classic thumb magazine release......probably because a thumb push is a gross motor muscle movement.
Reason being, a shooting will raise your heart rate from a resting 70bpm to near 200bpm. If you've never been in such a state, you have very little dexterity and little control over complex muscle actions. All you have left is what is referred to as gross motor muscle movements.
ATF and DEA also found that under the combat stress courses of fire that their agents did better with reloads using the classic thumb magazine release......probably because a thumb push is a gross motor muscle movement.
This may take this thread a whole another way, but...
Thumb push is a fine motor movement. Almost every finger movement, and every finger movement that requires finger-eye coordination is a fine motor movement.
Such as disengagement of manual safety, trigger press and reset, hitting mag release button, to some extent - magazine reload and, to lesser extent, keeping finger of trigger are all fall under fine motor skills. More so, even grabbing the slide for over-the-top or slingshot reload can be considered fine motor skill as it requires finger-eye coordination; pulling the slide back is a gross motor move. Handgun shooting and manipulations are almost all fine motor movements.
Now, about skills degradation under stress: it is true to some extent, but it is a training issue. You can't rid handgun skills of fine motor action no matter how hard you try - you need to train to overcome stress-induced failure.
I've never been in a shooting, but, by now, I've been in hundreds of life-or-death situations under immense time pressure and stress, where human survival depended on me performing actions much "finer" than anything that involves running a handgun. Early in my professional training, I was begging for easier way around. Now, it is a part of my skills that doesn't deteriorate simply because I trained through it.
Lucky Strike
12-06-10, 14:43
Has anyone had trigger work done after a high round count? I'm at 4000+ now on my P30, and the trigger has smoothed out a lot. I wonder how much better it can get (and it doesn't help that I don't know anyone with an HK, let alone one with trigger work).
I would love to get a shorter and more positive reset. The DA pull is still a little gritty (and of course delightfully heavy) and the SA break still creeps a bit, but it's all minor compared to how disappointing the reset is.
Bruce Grays (grayguns) action package will reduce the reset length by 40% (50% if you ask for the competition job) and makes a nice positive reset. It ain't cheap though...$300...he goes through the whole gun getting everything perfect. It'd be nice if he offered a cheaper package that just had the reset stuff.
Bruce Grays (grayguns) action package will reduce the reset length by 40% (50% if you ask for the competition job) and makes a nice positive reset. It ain't cheap though...$300...he goes through the whole gun getting everything perfect. It'd be nice if he offered a cheaper package that just had the reset stuff.
FWIW, they have closed their order list because of backlog, projected till February or March.
Crap, really? Damn. :(
Now, it is a part of my skills that doesn't deteriorate simply because I trained through it.
This is precisely why I don't buy the "LOL CAVEMAN STUFF ONLY" bandwagon. If this were the case, explain to me how combat medics perform delicate procedures in the field, often under extreme stress.
Oh right, training.
Lucky Strike
12-06-10, 19:36
FWIW, they have closed their order list because of backlog, projected till February or March.
Doesn't surprise me...I got mine back a month ago after a 17 week wait. The work's definitely high quality though.
Fire_Medic
12-06-10, 20:14
If this were the case, explain to me how combat medics perform delicate procedures in the field, often under extreme stress.
Oh right, training.
Yes it is because of training, because we have done things so many freaking times it becomes second nature, same way on the civilian side I can start lines on people while in a moving truck when the person is flatlining and everything is so chaotic and you only have one chance to do it or you won't be able to give any meds without further delay.....
Why else would it be as I m curious........
Combat breathing and other techniques have been used by military pilots for years to counter the loss of complex muscle control during combat stress. It has been a long known fact in the US military that combat stress greatly impedes your ability to perform complex activities. Techniques to minimize this stress include combat breathing and delaying engagements to allow the epinephrine concentration in the blood stream to lessen.
NYPD, the largest police department in the world did the first serious study on combat stress on police officers in the 1980s. The old Vietnam studies on combat stress did not really apply to police officers, because OISs were often completely unpredicted and lasted only a few seconds. The prelude to combat was absent from police shootings.......literally calm to storm with little to no mental/physical preparation for combat. This did not allow for the benefits of combat breathing, or delayed engagements to allow the body to return to ideal adrenaline levels and return complex motor muscle movements. They developed training practices that focused on gross motor muscle movements and their successful OIS incidents literally improved by 40%. That is a significant difference.
LAPD adopted NYPD's training theories in the early 1990s and had similar improvements in their OISs. Finally in the Federal system, Quantico and FLETC were late to get onto the bandwagon in the early 2000s and we also had improvements in our OISs. DOI's successful OISs(those were the officer is not shot and the bad guy loses), also improved about 30% in the last 5 years.
Three decades of experimentation and observation have shown that combat stress does indeed negatively effect officer gun handling skill and that training for gross motor muscle techniques improves shooting success. The difference between military engagements, or combat medics for that matter and police OISs is time and epinephrine levels in the blood stream. The engagements go from calm/controlled situations, and then to SHTF often last seconds requiring other methods of dealing with combat stress than lower the heart rate or waiting out the adrenaline. Many civilian self defense scenarios also only last a matter of seconds. In the Federal system we often line up for a raid and the point man will hold at a location of his choosing for a couple of minutes to let the team calm down a bit before we go in. Even a 2 minute premonition of danger/combat can be enough to lower your combat stress enough to regain your complex functions.
The theories have worked well for most of the Federal system, and when ever I go over to FLETC for training I continue to read about our OISs involving not only DOI, but BP, ICE, USMS, and ATF. We're actually shooting up LESS ammo in training in the last 10 years and our shootings have improved.
How about FAMs and SS? Do they train the same way?
My dilemma with this is there are equally skilled folks who don't teach it.
How about FAMs and SS? Do they train the same way?
My dilemma with this is there are equally skilled folks who don't teach it.
FAMs do, but I don't know if SS does.
As in all things, you will always have division in training methods. I still work with instructors that do not believe in the gross motor muscle training and still prefer modified bladed Weaver stances and revolver style grips as it allows for a slighter better degree of trigger control. Mostly these guys are old school, refuse to believe that they will every be in that stressful state, or have had(or read about) an OIS in which the officer did well in the shooting and didn't experience the effects of combat stress. Usually those incidents have involved premonition of combat, and time for adaptation. In combat we rarely rise to the occasion, we fall back onto the level of our training and that training must be appropriate for the situation. You train for when you are at your worst, not when you are at your best. We've had measurable improvement in all of our OISs, along with other agencies that have tried gross motor muscle firearms training.
John_Wayne777
12-07-10, 08:05
While I certainly respect Entropy's experience and the logic he gives for his position, the simple truth is that every action we take with a handgun that involves our fingers is a fine motor skill. That includes pulling the trigger and using the magazine release.
There seems to be no disagreement that people can successfully use both under stress...but suddenly when it comes to a little lever on the side of the gun that drops the slide from lock it becomes too difficult to manage?
There are folks walking the planet who have trained hundreds or thousands of people to use the slide release and their students seem to be able to do that fairly well under stress. Studies are magnificent and a scientific approach is laudable...but I also know how easy it is to confound variables and to improperly structure research resulting in an incorrect conclusion.
Combat breathing and other techniques have been used by military pilots for years to counter the loss of complex muscle control during combat stress. It has been a long known fact in the US military that combat stress greatly impedes your ability to perform complex activities. Techniques to minimize this stress include combat breathing and delaying engagements to allow the epinephrine concentration in the blood stream to lessen.
NYPD, the largest police department in the world did the first serious study on combat stress on police officers in the 1980s. The old Vietnam studies on combat stress did not really apply to police officers, because OISs were often completely unpredicted and lasted only a few seconds. The prelude to combat was absent from police shootings.......literally calm to storm with little to no mental/physical preparation for combat. This did not allow for the benefits of combat breathing, or delayed engagements to allow the body to return to ideal adrenaline levels and return complex motor muscle movements. They developed training practices that focused on gross motor muscle movements and their successful OIS incidents literally improved by 40%. That is a significant difference.
LAPD adopted NYPD's training theories in the early 1990s and had similar improvements in their OISs. Finally in the Federal system, Quantico and FLETC were late to get onto the bandwagon in the early 2000s and we also had improvements in our OISs. DOI's successful OISs(those were the officer is not shot and the bad guy loses), also improved about 30% in the last 5 years.
Three decades of experimentation and observation have shown that combat stress does indeed negatively effect officer gun handling skill and that training for gross motor muscle techniques improves shooting success. The difference between military engagements, or combat medics for that matter and police OISs is time and epinephrine levels in the blood stream. The engagements go from calm/controlled situations, and then to SHTF often last seconds requiring other methods of dealing with combat stress than lower the heart rate or waiting out the adrenaline. Many civilian self defense scenarios also only last a matter of seconds. In the Federal system we often line up for a raid and the point man will hold at a location of his choosing for a couple of minutes to let the team calm down a bit before we go in. Even a 2 minute premonition of danger/combat can be enough to lower your combat stress enough to regain your complex functions.
The theories have worked well for most of the Federal system, and when ever I go over to FLETC for training I continue to read about our OISs involving not only DOI, but BP, ICE, USMS, and ATF. We're actually shooting up LESS ammo in training in the last 10 years and our shootings have improved.
This is interesting info, Entropy, thanks for posting. All I can say that my personal experience differs. So you can have a frame of reference of what I am talking about, I am a physician and my job involves remotely manipulating 0.014 wires and even smaller equipment into people's heart arteries, with precision measured in millimeters. All work is done with fingertips. Sometimes I do it in relatively controlled environment, and sometimes things hit the fan before any warning with human life on the line - so I don't have time to breathe it down or delay my actions. As I said, early in training I could easily relate to loss of fine motor functions under stress, and now it is "been there, done that".
I'd admit two things:
- unlike combat shooting, it is somebody's life, not mine, that's endangered - although I am not sure when your adrenaline level is higher
- my exposure count is in hundreds right now - I don't know how many warfighters or LEO have had similar levels of exposure in their respective line of work.
Hey... just wanted to tell you guys about my Springfield trigger job. I sent off my P30, with a note to Bill letting him know i was most concerned about the long distance to trigger reset, instead if lighter/smoother trigger feel. (Honestly, i was a-okay with the #'s it took to fire it in SA). The stock reset sucked, and i had a tiny bit of over-travel, so i asked Bill to install the over-travel set screw.
His turn-around time for the work i requested was one day (that's amazing!), and i received it back 6 days after he signed for the gun. So... USPS needs to get on the ball, lol.
Bill definitely knows his way around a P30! I got exactly what i asked for.. the set screw made the over-travel disappear, but the real story here is the reset. He took 50-60% out of the reset travel!! There is a little bit of trigger pull improvement too, so i guess it's maybe a pound down (or so) now. But, like i said earlier, the stock SA pull wasn't bad at all to begin with (for me at least).
Next. i'd like to bring the DA pull down.. i think i'm going to order a new, lighter FPB spring (USP), and a lighter hammer spring while i'm at it, as a last resort. I shoot NATO 124gr, so i think i need a hard strike still.
Anyways... i HIGHLY recommend Bill's work! He will be getting my CZ 97B to work on, soon!
:D:D:D:D:D
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