Dragonskin Armor pulled from approved list by DOJ

[TY44934]

Here is the media article - which is probably full of errors, but you get the gist.

http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=local&id=5548204

or try:

http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=local&id=5548204

[Pat_Rogers]

DS was a sacm. They were caught doing things unethical and illegal.
How about that!

[Kisara]

Wow, that's interesting. Scotty R was really pushing this armor at a recent class I took at I.T.T.S., with students being invited to wear them during the course.

[Pat_Rogers]

At the Senate hearings, ol' Murray was caught in lies on video tape, and then had to admit that they willfully labeled vests as meeting the standard when in fact no authority was given.
USAF OSI had purchased a number of these vests, and an investigaton was started.

Lightfighter has a wonderful thread on the issues.
The vest is heavier, fails to meet standards, failed to pass tests due to multiple perforations, the company / owner is caught saying silly things.
Yup.

[DocGKR]

Body armor manufacturers who lie, need to fry...

[Kravin Moorehead]

At the Senate hearings, ol' Murray was caught in lies on video tape, and then had to admit that they willfully labeled vests as meeting the standard when in fact no authority was given.
USAF OSI had purchased a number of these vests, and an investigaton was started.

Lightfighter has a wonderful thread on the issues.
The vest is heavier, fails to meet standards, failed to pass tests due to multiple perforations, the company / owner is caught saying silly things.
Yup.


May I ask where you recieved information that OSI had purchased the vest?

[Pat_Rogers]

I watched the Chief of OSI testify before the committee on CSPAN.
Here is a news report.


OSI to investigate Pinnacle Armor.

Air Force scrutinizes body armor claim

Dragon Skin manufacturer being investigated
By Michelle Tan - Staff writer
Posted : Sunday Jun 10, 2007 9:07:58 EDT

The Air Force is investigating a California body armor manufacturer that is alleged to have falsely claimed its Dragon Skin vests were certified to a level of protection they did not possess.

The Air Force Office of Special Investigations contracted to buy 590 Dragon Skin vests based on literature from and claims by Pinnacle Armor Inc., Douglas Thomas, executive director of OSI, testified Thursday on Capitol Hill.

The vests were delivered and fielded between October 2005 and January 2006 to deployed and deploying OSI agents, Thomas said.

Dragon Skin subsequently failed two tests conducted by the Air Force.

“In February 2006, we issued a stop order/immediate discontinue message to all our personnel, which basically says stop using them ... and send them back to headquarters,” said Capt. Christine Millette, an OSI spokeswoman.

On May 11, 2006, OSI received verification from the National Law Enforcement and Corrections Technology Center that the type of Dragon Skin vests the Air Force purchased had not been tested or certified to National Institute of Justice standards, Thomas said.

“That was a big surprise because that’s one of the reasons we purchased the vests,” he said, adding that the vests received by OSI were clearly and falsely marked NIJ Level III.

“In May 2006, OSI opened a joint criminal investigation with [Defense Criminal Investigative Service] for false NIJ certification on the vest and false representation of its capabilities,” Thomas said. “In June 2006, we tested the vest again. It failed.”

The claim made by Pinnacle “is a serious fraudulent claim,” said Lt. Gen. Ross Thompson, military deputy to the assistant secretary of the Army for acquisition, logistics and technology.

Meanwhile, military officials, lawmakers and industry professionals continue to debate whether Pinnacle’s vests outperform the military’s Interceptor armor.

Murray Neal, chief executive officer of Pinnacle, joined Thomas, Thompson and representatives from the other services June 6 in front of the House Armed Services Committee. Rep. Ike Skelton, D-Mo., the committee chairman, questioned Pinnacle about its claim, which was placed on the vests and dated April 14, 2006.

“I have in front of me a later letter from the Department of Justice dated Dec. 20, 2006,” Skelton said. “What I find to be interesting is that this attachment to the [body armor] is dated April 14, 2006, and the actual certification is Dec. 20, 2006. ... This is a serious discrepancy of making an assertion months before it actually came to pass.”

NIJ has a body armor testing program to “enhance the confidence of public safety agencies and officers,” said Jonathan Morgan, deputy director of the institute.

Pinnacle has submitted seven models of Dragon Skin-based armor to NIJ since May 2006, Morgan said. The company resubmitted two of the seven models after inconclusive results. Of those nine submissions, five failed to comply with NIJ standards, one passed, two were found to be inconclusive and one is pending, Morgan said.

The Army will test Dragon Skin vests — along with products from any other bidder — if the company submits its product to a request for proposals that is open until late July, Thompson said. The Army will look at any offers from manufacturers who believe they can improve on the enhanced small-arms protective inserts and enhanced side ballistic inserts now worn by soldiers, Thompson said.

Neal said all he wants is a fair test for his product.

“The bottom line for me ... is that Dragon Skin has been verified as the best body armor in the world,” he testified. “Therefore, all we ask is for a third-party independent testing of Dragon Skin at a facility that has Office of the Secretary of Defense and Department of Testing and Evaluation oversight.”


— Staff writer Erik Holmes contributed to this report.

[Kravin Moorehead]

I watched the Chief of OSI testify before the committee on CSPAN.
Here is a news report.


OSI to investigate Pinnacle Armor.

Air Force scrutinizes body armor claim

Dragon Skin manufacturer being investigated
By Michelle Tan - Staff writer
Posted : Sunday Jun 10, 2007 9:07:58 EDT

The Air Force is investigating a California body armor manufacturer that is alleged to have falsely claimed its Dragon Skin vests were certified to a level of protection they did not possess.

The Air Force Office of Special Investigations contracted to buy 590 Dragon Skin vests based on literature from and claims by Pinnacle Armor Inc., Douglas Thomas, executive director of OSI, testified Thursday on Capitol Hill.

The vests were delivered and fielded between October 2005 and January 2006 to deployed and deploying OSI agents, Thomas said.

Dragon Skin subsequently failed two tests conducted by the Air Force.

“In February 2006, we issued a stop order/immediate discontinue message to all our personnel, which basically says stop using them ... and send them back to headquarters,” said Capt. Christine Millette, an OSI spokeswoman.

On May 11, 2006, OSI received verification from the National Law Enforcement and Corrections Technology Center that the type of Dragon Skin vests the Air Force purchased had not been tested or certified to National Institute of Justice standards, Thomas said.

“That was a big surprise because that’s one of the reasons we purchased the vests,” he said, adding that the vests received by OSI were clearly and falsely marked NIJ Level III.

“In May 2006, OSI opened a joint criminal investigation with [Defense Criminal Investigative Service] for false NIJ certification on the vest and false representation of its capabilities,” Thomas said. “In June 2006, we tested the vest again. It failed.”

The claim made by Pinnacle “is a serious fraudulent claim,” said Lt. Gen. Ross Thompson, military deputy to the assistant secretary of the Army for acquisition, logistics and technology.

Meanwhile, military officials, lawmakers and industry professionals continue to debate whether Pinnacle’s vests outperform the military’s Interceptor armor.

Murray Neal, chief executive officer of Pinnacle, joined Thomas, Thompson and representatives from the other services June 6 in front of the House Armed Services Committee. Rep. Ike Skelton, D-Mo., the committee chairman, questioned Pinnacle about its claim, which was placed on the vests and dated April 14, 2006.

“I have in front of me a later letter from the Department of Justice dated Dec. 20, 2006,” Skelton said. “What I find to be interesting is that this attachment to the [body armor] is dated April 14, 2006, and the actual certification is Dec. 20, 2006. ... This is a serious discrepancy of making an assertion months before it actually came to pass.”

NIJ has a body armor testing program to “enhance the confidence of public safety agencies and officers,” said Jonathan Morgan, deputy director of the institute.

Pinnacle has submitted seven models of Dragon Skin-based armor to NIJ since May 2006, Morgan said. The company resubmitted two of the seven models after inconclusive results. Of those nine submissions, five failed to comply with NIJ standards, one passed, two were found to be inconclusive and one is pending, Morgan said.

The Army will test Dragon Skin vests — along with products from any other bidder — if the company submits its product to a request for proposals that is open until late July, Thompson said. The Army will look at any offers from manufacturers who believe they can improve on the enhanced small-arms protective inserts and enhanced side ballistic inserts now worn by soldiers, Thompson said.

Neal said all he wants is a fair test for his product.

“The bottom line for me ... is that Dragon Skin has been verified as the best body armor in the world,” he testified. “Therefore, all we ask is for a third-party independent testing of Dragon Skin at a facility that has Office of the Secretary of Defense and Department of Testing and Evaluation oversight.”


— Staff writer Erik Holmes contributed to this report.

Interesting. I can't say anymore on this subject.

[Pat_Rogers]

Understood!

[John_Wayne777]

Huh....

So what you guys are trying to tell us is that stuff that appears on Future Weapons ISN'T necessarily superly awesome and better than what's already out there?

http://photo.net/bboard-uploads/009QKG-19545784.jpg

It's the big one Elizabeth!!!

Note: Any jokes about how old I am for making a Red Foxx joke will be responded to with a severe pinch...

[mark5pt56]

Last year, I heard alot of people in the know reported that stuff was garbage. It's sad that people peddle crap to make a buck when people stand to get hurt/killed over it.

[Looey]

thanks for the info Pat.
I will have to say that i was one of the ones that wish we all got them(they looked more comfortable,. I guess one should never believe the HIPE.
i wore the interceptor and at first it might be uncomfortable, but you get used to it(once you get the sand out of certain locations)i will say that so far it has done the job pretty well as far as i am concerned.

[R Moran]

DS was a sacm. They were caught doing things unethical and illegal.
How about that!


You mean, theres not a big Army conspiracy to keep the "best" body armor, armored vehicles, carbine and ammo out of the hands of the troops.

Bob

[Harv]

Two Words... "Stan Bulmer".......:rolleyes:

[QuietShootr]

Two Words... "Stan Bulmer".......:rolleyes:


Funny, I was thinking the same thing. And that many of the same people who drank (and still drink) the bulmer koolaid were some of the biggest fans of DragonSkin.

Interesting is right.

[CarlosDJackal]

...
http://photo.net/bboard-uploads/009QKG-19545784.jpg

It's the big one Elizabeth!!!

Note: Any jokes about how old I am for making a Red Foxx joke will be responded to with a severe pinch...

GEEZER!! :D Actually, I used to watch that show when it was still popular.

Have you noticed that this is the second time the AFOSI was screwed with their body armor purchase (the first was the SC Zylon debacle)? You'd think that they would start testing the item BEFORE they purchase an issue them.

[Kravin Moorehead]

GEEZER!! :D Actually, I used to watch that show when it was still popular.

Have you noticed that this is the second time the AFOSI was screwed with their body armor purchase (the first was the SC Zylon debacle)? You'd think that they would start testing the item BEFORE they purchase an issue them.

There is alot more that is not disclosed when OSI aquires items. Lets just say that DS was fielded in the AOR for a short time, and other flaws were found.

[GunLovinTexan]

My Local LE SWAT team has 2 DS vest, they swear by them and when i tried to tell them it was all a hype and they were failing left and right they gave me a dirty look and said I dont know what im talking about.


They also have Bushmaster M4's and M3 lights.

Atleast they use M193 for ammo.

I was reading the Owners defense over at Lightfighter and he still swears by them. I think it will be colorfull to see how it all unravels

Rob

[Rob96]

If I remember correctly Doc Roberts was supporting this product. Has he retracted his endorsement?