View Full Version : Think I had a KB in my 9mm Glock
I posted this on Glocktalk, wanted you all to see it
I went to Bass Pro to shoot my new OD G19 I ordered from Eds last week. Haven't fired a single round thru it. Grabbed a box of Ultramax 115gr 9mm rounds and figured I'd buy some WWB when I got up there.
Everything was fine and dandy for the first 13 shots. Hit the 14th and it felt like somebody hit me in both hands with a baseball bat. Just intense stinging. Upon firing that round it made a puff of smoke around the gun and it shot the magazine about 4 ft in front of me. Truth be told, when it happened, I couldn't believe it. I DIDNT WANT TO believe it. I walked out and told the RO what happened. We examined the 19, found the casing (that was laying right underneath me) and checked out the magazine. I took it all apart and absolutely nothing was wrong with my 19 or the magazine. The problem case on the other hand, had a hole about 1/4 inch long at the BASE of the case. I don't know if its from a weak case or if it just exploded. I'm not too familiar with this.
What should my next steps be? I did load up some different rounds after inspection to see if my gun still functions as its my carry piece and needed to know. It shot fine, looks fine. Just a hurt hand and ego.
I had never heard of a 9mm Glock doing this, but I know without a doubt it wasn't the guns fault. It was the ammo. And the gun still working fine after the fact goes to show how tough Glocks are in my book.
I'll post pictures of the case, the gun, etc in a bit. My fiance made me sick and I literally just threw up about 20 minutes ago. Taking it easy right now.
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f346/brandent1gmail/IMG_2407.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f346/brandent1gmail/IMG_2405.jpg
Called Ultramax today. Spoke with a great guy named Larry. He told me flat out whatever is wrong with the pistol due to this, whatever is wrong with me, they will pay for. And they are replacing all the ammuniton. I need to send him what I have left of the case and he will examine it all. Regardless, he is sending me fresh new ammo. He said it's my choice to send my G19 back to Glock to have it examined or a local gunsmith. I honestly don't feel anything is wrong with my gun, but I'm going to have it checked out by a local smith to be sure.
Anyways, Ultramax is taking care of me. Good people
Looks like mistreated brass. Not on your part, most likely manufacturing error. metal shrinks and expands all the time. Also might be overload.
Nice to hear Ultramax is being so willing to accept responsibility... keep us up on how it goes.
I'd have a glock armorer inspect the pistol in case you need to make a claim, but it's very possible that it's fine.
Weird looking brass.....as if its belted?
gtmtnbiker98
11-29-10, 18:13
Glad you are alright. Since it is new, I would call Glock and have the factory inspect it. Just to be extra safe. Glock Armorers are a dime a dozen and most do not necessarily know more than many of us non-armorers. Just sayin'.
AngeredKabar
11-29-10, 18:20
Weird looking brass.....as if its belted?
Don't know much about the glock design but the case sort of looks like it was fired out of battery. Surely it can't fire OOB...
I'm glad this didn't cause serious injury and I'm also glad the ammo company is stepping up on this one.
An Undocumented Worker
11-29-10, 18:20
Send it to Glock, with the magazine that was ejected, and pictures of the ruptured case.
Have you got a better pic of the primer?
Have you got a better pic of the primer?
+1
If it fired out of battery, could you tell this by the strike on the primer being higher than usual?
+1
If it fired out of battery, could you tell this by the strike on the primer being higher than usual?
Honestly, the primer looks perfectly normal. No bulges, looks like a solid contact.
Honestly, the primer looks perfectly normal. No bulges, looks like a solid contact.
But is the strike slightly off center when compared to other brass?
But is the strike slightly off center when compared to other brass?
No it's perfectly centered.
This is my, shit, 5th or 6th Glock. I keep trying other guns and can't get away for EDC :D
I had the same exact thing in a sig 228 using reloads. Brass looked just like yours. With me the mag stayed in but the ruptured case bent the extractor out a bit.
ApacheTactical
11-29-10, 19:46
I would send it to Glock so it can be closely examined for cracks or fractures that may not be seen by the eye.
Glad you are alright. Since it is new, I would call Glock and have the factory inspect it. Just to be extra safe. Glock Armorers are a dime a dozen and most do not necessarily know more than many of us non-armorers. Just sayin'.
This. I'm a GLOCK armorer and that really doesn't mean anything more than I sat in class for 8 hrs one day last Fall to learn a bit more about how these guns function and how to detail strip and inspect them. Unless it's something BIG I doubt I would really notice a damaged part.
Send it back to GLOCK. It'll cost you about $50-60 but the ammo company will pick up the tab it seems so you won't be out anything. Like someone else said .... explain what happened and GLOCK will know where to look for possible damage. I took a G17 over to Smyrna for inspection once and the tech found a hairline fracture on the what I call the nose ring ... the ring where the recoil spring assembly rides at the muzzle end of the slide. There's no way I would have seen that with the naked eye. The tech found it and advised me I needed to replace the slide.
Better safe than sorry.
Send it back to GLOCK. It'll cost you about $50-60 but the ammo company will pick up the tab it seems so you won't be out anything. Like someone else said .... explain what happened and GLOCK will know where to look for possible damage. I took a G17 over to Smyrna for inspection once and the tech found a hairline fracture on the what I call the nose ring ... the ring where the recoil spring assembly rides at the muzzle end of the slide. There's no way I would have seen that with the naked eye. The tech found it and advised me I needed to replace the slide.
Better safe than sorry.
Absolutely send it back to Glock for inspection
eternal24k
11-29-10, 20:55
Nice to hear Ultramax is being so willing to accept responsibility... keep us up on how it goes.
+1, i kind of figured Ultramax must get a lot of claims, and thus not be so easy.
Also a big +1 to sending it to Glock, an untrained eye can easily pass over hairline cracks and such
A little piece of brass acting like a gasket is all that holds 30,000+ PSI from blowing out. One little fault in the brass is all it takes.
These are pretty familiar to IPSC and IDPA guys, especially those who reload brass until it fails instead of chucking it after a few times. It's a good thing that most of the time all that happens is a magazine getting blown out.
Magic_Salad0892
11-30-10, 07:05
Couldn't you break a magazine catch because of that?
A10
i had the same thing happen to me a few years ago. i looks like your weapon fired slightly out of battery, which is why the web of the case let go(by being slightly out of batt. you lose case support on the bottom of the case, thus the case lets go). when this happens the case will let go at the bottom and vent all the gas and pressure straight down blowing out the mag. and venting out of the gaps between the slide and the frame. i doubt you have any damage to your 19 as i didn't have any on my 26. yes glocks can fire out of battery very slightly i might add but it can happen. if you like send it back to glock but i don't think you need to. no real damage ocurrs when this happens.
A10
i had the same thing happen to me a few years ago. i looks like your weapon fired slightly out of battery, which is why the web of the case let go(by being slightly out of batt. you lose case support on the bottom of the case, thus the case lets go). when this happens the case will let go at the bottom and vent all the gas and pressure straight down blowing out the mag. and venting out of the gaps between the slide and the frame. i doubt you have any damage to your 19 as i didn't have any on my 26. yes glocks can fire out of battery very slightly i might add but it can happen. if you like send it back to glock but i don't think you need to. no real damage ocurrs when this happens.
I spoke to a Glock tech this morning in Smyrna, and he told me it is physically impossible for a Glock to shoot out of battery. I don't know what to think now.
1_click_off
11-30-10, 12:34
My 27 will fire just OOB. This thread got me wondering so I tried it, and sure enough just barely OOB and click.
i'm
not going to fight with the glock rep. but i was albe to replicate it a few times with primed brass. it's not common but it can and does happen. i'm just saying.
i'm
not going to fight with the glock rep. but i was albe to replicate it a few times with primed brass. it's not common but it can and does happen. i'm just saying.
10-4
Appreciate everyone's help
A10
no issues just trying to shed some light on it.
Glad you are ok! I was at the range earlier this month and the guy next to me shooting an AR had the same thing happen on reloaded ammo...
I have zillions of hours into overloading 9mm to see what happens.
9mm pistols typically have a feed ramp intrusion of 0.19" into the chamber. Glocks are typical for this.
9mm brass has a 0.16" thick web.
That leaves .03" of thin unsupported case wall that is ~ 0.015" thick.
This is so much better than a typical 45acp or 40 S&W that lawyered up corporations are willing to sell 9mm +P+ factory ammo.
And 9mm +P+ is wimpy, compared to what can be handloaded for such good case support.
The OP pic looks like more than .19" from base to end of brass failure.
That means that it fired out of battery.... or someone has polished the feed ramp.
Put an case or cartridge into the barrel.
Scribe a line on the brass with a needle and compare it to the failed case.
If the scribed line goes way up like the failure, it is a polished feed ramp.
If the scribed line is way low compared to the failure line, it fired out of battery.
1_click_off
12-10-10, 08:50
So in your zillions of hours overloading 9mm, is that what is known as 9mm Major and regular loads are 9mm minor?
Major and minor are power factor terms for competing in ISPC.
The term "Major Face" means someone tried to make major with 9mm, the case failed, brass and powder debris came back through the ejector slot in the slide, sprayed the shooters face, and the result is a presentation of red blood.
There is one published load for 9x19mm that will make major, 3N37 and 147 gr in the early Vihtavuori load book.
A much more powerful round is possible with Power Pistol and 158 gr, but published loads maintain a loose association with reality.
The real limit for most 9mm handguns will be recoil.
Most powder-bullet combinations cannot make pressure trouble in a 9mm.
There are some powders that have the speed-density product to get brass failure; HS-6, 3N37, and AA#5.
Not enough Bullseye can fit in a 9mm case, even with sequential compression, with any normal bullet, to make pressure trouble. That is despite what most people think.
The recoil problem can get severe. I have a Glock 19 with a 48 pound triple recoil spring, and mods to the trigger and magazine springs. Given the length of slide stroke, the mass of the slide, the compliance and mass of the hand, and the momentum of the gas and bullet, these modifications can not compensate for the 9mm power capability to make recoil.
1_click_off
12-10-10, 09:39
Thanks for the info. Good to know about bullseye, but it is a pain in the a$$ to clean off of a SS firearm so I don't use it.
mariodsantana
12-10-10, 13:01
The OP pic looks like more than .19" from base to end of brass failure.
That means that it fired out of battery.... or someone has polished the feed ramp.
Since some Glocks can fire slightly out of battery, it also seems possible that the some of the case damage could be caused as the case moved back out of the chamber during the (quicker than normal) extraction cycle...?
Major and minor are power factor terms for competing in ISPC.
The term "Major Face" means someone tried to make major with 9mm, the case failed, brass and powder debris came back through the ejector slot in the slide, sprayed the shooters face, and the result is a presentation of red blood.
There is one published load for 9x19mm that will make major, 3N37 and 147 gr in the early Vihtavuori load book.
A much more powerful round is possible with Power Pistol and 158 gr, but published loads maintain a loose association with reality.
The real limit for most 9mm handguns will be recoil.
Most powder-bullet combinations cannot make pressure trouble in a 9mm.
There are some powders that have the speed-density product to get brass failure; HS-6, 3N37, and AA#5.
Not enough Bullseye can fit in a 9mm case, even with sequential compression, with any normal bullet, to make pressure trouble. That is despite what most people think.
The recoil problem can get severe. I have a Glock 19 with a 48 pound triple recoil spring, and mods to the trigger and magazine springs. Given the length of slide stroke, the mass of the slide, the compliance and mass of the hand, and the momentum of the gas and bullet, these modifications can not compensate for the 9mm power capability to make recoil.
Used to be "Super Face" back in the day when people started hot rodding .38 Super in unsupported barrels to make the old major PF. Many competitors back then wore beards to hide this affliction :D
clarkm-
interesting info. welcome to the board. :cool:
It seems to me this thread is drifting off into a scary place
Lest anyone forgets, there was some ammunition involved. Ultramax ammunition is not known for it's quality or reliability. I have had four different kBooms with Ultramax remanufactured ammunition. Most recently, an AR type weapon was severely damaged.
If you use low quality ammunition, be prepared for low levels of quality. This also means you'll need to be accepting of damage and injury due to the product.
Glad that you were not hurt in this case.
polymorpheous
12-11-10, 21:30
Lest anyone forgets, there was some ammunition involved. Ultramax ammunition is not known for it's quality or reliability. I have had four different kBooms with Ultramax remanufactured ammunition. Most recently, an AR type weapon was severely damaged.
If you use low quality ammunition, be prepared for low levels of quality. This also means you'll need to be accepting of damage and injury due to the product.
Glad that you were not hurt in this case.
I read this whole thread waiting for someone to point out that Ultramax is re-manufactured.
That would be my #1 suspect.
Good to hear they are willing to help.
I had the same thing happen in my USP9 years ago using re-manufactured ammo. More than likely your Glock is fine.
+1
If it fired out of battery, could you tell this by the strike on the primer being higher than usual?
hes looking for signs of an over pressured case. sometimes the primers will bulge or blow out if the ammo was loaded hot
While we were at a TDSA class a buddy had two of these happen, from factory Winchester 115gr. He was shooting up some older ammo he had stashed and had a KaBoom. Hand was stung, mag popped out, etc., but no damage to the G17.
Awhile later, same thing happened. I pointed out what a dumbass he was for continuing to shoot that same batch of ammo.
I have seen similar case head blowouts from reman ammo, the brass can only take some many reloads and the companies have no idea at all how many times the traded in brass they use has been loaded.
Ultramax does not set a standard for how many times a piece of brass can be re-used. A problem with re-manufactured pistol ammunition, but very spectacular when this guideline is applied to .223. Add to that some spotty quality control and you best have a gun repair shop on retainer.
While we were at a TDSA class a buddy had two of these happen, from factory Winchester 115gr. He was shooting up some older ammo he had stashed and had a KaBoom. Hand was stung, mag popped out, etc., but no damage to the G17.
Awhile later, same thing happened. I pointed out what a dumbass he was for continuing to shoot that same batch of ammo.
I have seen similar case head blowouts from reman ammo, the brass can only take some many reloads and the companies have no idea at all how many times the traded in brass they use has been loaded.
Well, I sent in all the ammo I had sans the case, I had it at my place in MO and had to send it separately. Larry is still being extremely helpful and called the other day to check on me and the gun. He's offering to replace all of the ammo I have and that's great. Problem is, I don't really want to shoot Ultramax anymore. One stung hand is enough for me. I understand it can happen with any ammo, but I feel a bridge has been burnt. Unfortunately, I'm too nice to explain this to him.
I had this happen earlier this year in one of my older 17s. Case looked almost exactly the same, mag didn't come out and the case didn't eject. Had some powder burn on my hand behind my trigger finger. Very minor and wiped the powder off. Ammo was some reloads I took in trade for some parts I had laying around. Threw out what was left and I've had about 2k through the gun since then with no problems.
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