View Full Version : My friend accidently shot himself H&K USP 9mm
Hey guys I hope this is in the right category. Ok so last week, several friends of mine and I went camping for a night out on some land. Of course we brought some guns to shoot down into the strip pit. Later on, after it got dark, we were sittin around the fire just hanging out. My friend, whom I'll call "Bob", had his tac vest on. He's a lefty and has a cross draw on the lower right front side of the vest. It points down at about a 45 degree angle towards his right hip. When sitting, the barrel points pretty close to his thigh. Holstered and loaded from previous shooting, was his H&K USP 9mm. I went to grab some more hot dogs so I wasn't watching but Bob noticed that the hammer was still back on the USP so he (in his own words) "without unholstering, pressed the decocking lever to let the hammer down". Usually it's all fine and dandy but there was a bang. The FMJ (thank God it wasn't a HP) 9mm went through his pants, clean through his lateral right thigh. He says he didn't even feel anything but that it "was a close one". Bit later, he noticed he was bleeding a little bit. He took his belt off and put it around his leg above the wound. He claims he felt no pain. He couldn't have shot himself in a better place, missing anything important but just going through the muscle. He is fairly experienced with guns but I'm not sure whether I believe that it was a freak accident, or if he actually accidently pulled the trigger somehow. We took him to the hospital and they just took a few x-rays, cleaned it a bit, bandaged him up, and gave him some anti-biotics. He's not even limping! My question is (to those of you that are experienced with the H&K USP) is it possible that it discharged without him pulling the trigger? I could see if something got caught in between the hammer and firing pin that it could happen but its unlikely. All I can say is, I'm glad he didn't shoot someone else and he is very lucky.
6724
He may not have had the manual safety on in the single action, cocked position. Plus, you never point a pistol at something or someone that could be damaged, hurt, or killed when you decock it.
John_Wayne777
11-29-10, 19:48
It's possible that his weapon was broken or had a severe enough malfunction that decocking the weapon caused a discharge...but the likelihood of that is really small. The decocker on the USP, in proper working order, doesn't allow the hammer to contact the firing pin. Even if it did, it would also require the firing pin safety to have malfunctioned at the same time allowing the firing pin to move forward and contact the primer.
Actually pulling the trigger allows the hammer to fall fully forward and deactivates the firing pin safety, resulting in a fired shot.
Occam's razor suggests that the trigger was pulled.
It could have been pulled because he was trying to manually lower the hammer without using the decocker. The trigger could have caught on a part of the likely cheap-junk holster attached to the vest and that could have been enough to fire the weapon.
If he maintains that the weapon went off as he was using the decocker, then the weapon needs to be sent to H&K immediately so they can check it out and ensure that it is in proper working order.
Was going to add to get it looked at to be sure, but the moderator did that.
As the owner of several different model HK's past and present I would have to say;
Accidental Discharge? No. Negligent discharge? Yes.
"Off target. Off trigger." That's a good phrase to have your friend memorize. Glad he's ok. That wound could have been debilitating or fatal.
My academy had one documented incident of an HK USP40 discharging while de-cocking. It was sometime in 1997 or 1998 and I recall that it had something to do with debris in the form of cleaning patch remnants or some other cloth interfering with the proper function of the weapon. I do remember clearly that it was attributed to the recruit performing unauthorized maintenance (i.e. disassembly beyond field stripping). In any event, it was user induced and there were no injuries. It happened to be an instructor who was demonstrating something with the recruit's weapon when it happened.
Six Feet Under
11-29-10, 20:32
He got really lucky. I would reconsider his friendship with you though because the next time he shoots something it could be you. Personal experience. I figured "shit happens" when the guy who shot me accidentally shot out the back window of his camper one day after work (traveling lineman). I thought he learned his lesson. I was wrong, and shit happened to me as well. :sad:
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs062.snc3/12935_373521940412_587265412_10171680_3544944_n.jpg
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs499.snc3/27258_10150173934345413_587265412_12059888_4160768_n.jpg
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs042.snc3/12935_374719385412_587265412_10177948_42563_n.jpg
Happened a year ago yesterday. I went into surgery a year ago this morning at 0900 and it took five and a half hours to "fix" (aka, reassemble the jumbled mess of bone pieces) my arm.
Needless to say, I am highly critical of the people I shoot with now. If you do something unsafe and I see it, you aren't gonna be invited back. I could really care less what people think of me when I do that because this incident has cost me two years of progress in my life, about $50,000 in medical bills, and almost cost me my dream of being an LEO (it still may, I'm slated to go back to the academy August 2011, IF I can do the PT). I have more surgery on Thursday to remove three of those screws.
eternal24k
11-29-10, 20:52
I highly doubt it was the gun, but if it was, it was something severe and unless "Bob" disposed of the gun, you should be able to determine whether or not everything is in working order with a visit to a smith or back to the factory.
A LEO shot out the display at my FFL with their duty pistol (Glock) and swears the gun's trigger was never pulled. Some people just give themselves the benefit of the doubt i guess :rolleyes:
Had the same thing happen with to another student I was training with this summer. The instructor happened to have his eye on the guy when, while decocking, his m9 went bang. Fortunately, his was correctly pointed in a safe direction, but it did shake him up. Turned out to be a matter of worn parts. I've heard of a few more incidents like it since. Decockers don't seem like such a great idea to me any more.
My money says the trigger was accidentally pulled somehow.
If it was in fact a legitimate malfunction (and that is a HUGE 'if'), then the weapon needs to go back to HK immediately and I would very much like to see a follow-up posted here if it does.
My friend, whom I'll call "Bob", had his tac vest on. He's a lefty and has a cross draw on the lower right front side of the vest. It points down at about a 45 degree angle towards his right hip. When sitting, the barrel points pretty close to his thigh. Holstered and loaded from previous shooting, was his H&K USP 9mm.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. These things always happen with lazy or stupid gun handling.
My advice to Bob is to lose the mall ninja gear, and spend some money on instruction and training. Just based on your description, I have a feeling that Bob might be the type that has little or no formal training and is a know it all that spends his money on toys with little respect for their intended use and dangers. His gun handling skills alone raise red flags to me.
In regard to the H&K negligent discharge, most likely the trigger was activated during his careless decocker activation. I've seen it happen in Sigs and H&Ks. It is moronic to activate a pistol's safety(safe condition) controls while it is still in the holster.....especially a soft universal holster which is commonly found on tac vests. Not to mention ensuring that the pistol is pointed in a safe direction during those operations is a basic tenant of firearms safety. If he had simply followed basic gun handling rules he never would have had a hole in his leg.
It is doubtful that that is anything wrong with his H&K, but for insurance purposes he will need to submit it to the local PD for testing or to H&K for investigation.
Had the same thing happen with to another student I was training with this summer. The instructor happened to have his eye on the guy when, while decocking, his m9 went bang. Fortunately, his was correctly pointed in a safe direction, but it did shake him up. Turned out to be a matter of worn parts. I've heard of a few more incidents like it since. Decockers don't seem like such a great idea to me any more.
I'm not a Beretta armorer, but this type of malfunction is almost impossible. Almost all modern pistols have firing pin safeties. The trigger bar pushes on the firing pin safety plunger when the trigger is pulled to allow the firing pin to float forward. Therefore, the trigger MUST be pulled in combination with decocking to even have a chance at pulling off such a malfunction. H&Ks have a full force hammer fall during decocking which could have led to it, but the firing pin safety plunger would still have to be depressed via a trigger pull to make it happen.
GermanSynergy
11-29-10, 22:22
OP,
Why did your friend opt to manipulate the weapon with the muzzle pointing in an unsafe direction? Not piling on, just a serious question.
This could have easily been avoided had he pointed the USP in a safe direction while decocking it.
Belmont31R
11-29-10, 22:22
Just a sample of one but Ive decocked my USP45C hundreds of times, and it has close to 10k through it.
At least he didn't shoot someone else. Even on my USP I always point it in a safe direction when decocking or doing anything with it for that matter. Esp with a mag in the gun. Don't **** around with that stuff when you KNOW there is a round in the chamber.
Another vote for accidental trigger pull. He screwed up, He's lucky he didn't get seriously hurt. I STRONGLY hope this is a wake up call for this guy. I don't want to call him "Mall Ninja" But there is no need to have a pistol attached to a tac vest while sitting around a campfire. I hope you guys were drinking ice tea while hanging out around the camp fire eating hot dogs and not drinking another substance that could have added to his lack off attention to what he was doing... Regardless, I'm glad your friend is OK, and I hope he learned something from this event.
RancidSumo
11-29-10, 22:27
I find it hard to believe that he "didn't feel a thing". Was he drinking?
the more experienced i get with firearms, the more i realize "shoots a lot" does not "experienced with firearms" make.
your buddy might shoot 500 rounds every weekend- he obviously doesn't know the first thing about firearm safety. and i'm talkin regardless of whether or not the trigger was pulled. you don't do ANYTHING to ANY gun EVER while it's pointed at flesh or expensive and/or irreplaceable shit.
Thanks for the reponses guys. You are right, he isn't formally trained and he does like to spend money on guns and it was a cheap tac vest with a universal soft holster that I never approved of anyways. I told him, instead of UTG, get a blackhawk or something. That's what I'll get when I get the money saved up. And he very well may be giving himself the benefit of the doubt. I just know that he and everyone else that was there are very fortunate. I'm not sure what his plans are with it from this point. He claims he can't trust it (the USP) anymore after this but I'm with you guys, H&K has a very good reputation vs. a self-trained average gun enthusiast. If he does get it inspected (not sure if he actually will or not) I will post the results here. Hopefully this incident will instill better gun safety into his practices.
Since he doesn't trust it any more and there is a 99.99% chance there's nothing wrong with it maybe you can buy it from him cheap.
xjustintimex
11-29-10, 23:41
I was just thinking how little I trust decockers. I've never seen one fail but for somereason I can't trust them :p
controlledpairs2
11-29-10, 23:56
I'm not a Beretta armorer, but this type of malfunction is almost impossible. Almost all modern pistols have firing pin safeties. The trigger bar pushes on the firing pin safety plunger when the trigger is pulled to allow the firing pin to float forward. Therefore, the trigger MUST be pulled in combination with decocking to even have a chance at pulling off such a malfunction. H&Ks have a full force hammer fall during decocking which could have led to it, but the firing pin safety plunger would still have to be depressed via a trigger pull to make it happen.
yeah entropy is right. on the m9, the decocker rolls the firing pin head up and away. the hammer cannot contact the firing pin, its impossible.
Six Feet Under
11-30-10, 00:35
I find it hard to believe that he "didn't feel a thing". Was he drinking?
I don't, I didn't realize my friend had shot me for at least 3-4 seconds and it shattered my elbow socket and basically left my humerus disconnected from my forearm. For a shot that goes clean through soft tissue/muscle with an FMJ round, it might be slightly unbelievable, but not totally.
At least to me anyways.
RancidSumo
11-30-10, 00:50
I would guess thats because of the initial shock of the event. Yet you still felt it pretty quick. He claimed his friend didn't feel it until he saw blood.
I still think that, combined with him saying that the gun went off in a manner which is near impossible, and the fact that it happened while sitting around a campfire at night, leads me to believe that alcohol may have been involved.
variablebinary
11-30-10, 02:21
I don't like the HK decocker. The way the hammer slams down freaks me out.
Either way, don't point your gun at anything you don't want destroyed.
And keep your damn booger hook off the banger switch.
I don't like the HK decocker. The way the hammer slams down freaks me out.
Either way, don't point your gun at anything you don't want destroyed.
And keep your damn booger hook off the banger switch.
me either.. i always manually dropped my USP. i trust my thumb and index finger more than some plastic parts.
i don't miss hammers.
Thanks for the reponses guys. You are right, he isn't formally trained and he does like to spend money on guns and it was a cheap tac vest with a universal soft holster that I never approved of anyways. I told him, instead of UTG, get a blackhawk or something. That's what I'll get when I get the money saved up. And he very well may be giving himself the benefit of the doubt. I just know that he and everyone else that was there are very fortunate. I'm not sure what his plans are with it from this point. He claims he can't trust it (the USP) anymore after this but I'm with you guys, H&K has a very good reputation vs. a self-trained average gun enthusiast. If he does get it inspected (not sure if he actually will or not) I will post the results here. Hopefully this incident will instill better gun safety into his practices.
I find that most often when something goes bad, people are always going to blame someone or something else for the mistake long before they'll even consider they were wrong. Maybe because they know they made the mistake in the first place and are covering it up to hide embarrassment.
Who knows.
In any case, your friend definitely needs some formal training before you should consider going shooting with him again, and I would suggest, before singing "Kumbaya" around the fire, making sure everyone has safetied, cleared, and PUT AWAY their guns.
Unless the pistol is completely FUBAR'd, it is impossible to discharge a pistol through decocking. I am a Beretta armorer and know the only way to do this is to have a ND. HK maybe slightly different, but they all really follow similar engineering when it comes to the decocker. I'm calling booger hook on the trigger. It sucks to say that, but I've seen far too many so called 'experienced veterans' become overly complacent and have a ND.
Facejackets
11-30-10, 03:26
First off, I'm happy your friend is ok. I'm not going to slam him because good people make bad (or stupid) choices, and mistakes sometimes. I'm sure he learned from his mistake. At the time he may not of felt it, but I bet he is today!
Secondly, I am really shocked no one has said "if it was a 10mm he would have blown his leg off, and killed three small children in china". That's what I like about this forum.
variablebinary
11-30-10, 03:49
me either.. i always manually dropped my USP. i trust my thumb and index finger more than some plastic parts.
i don't miss hammers.
The CZ and SIG "controlled descent" gives me more warm and fuzzies compared to HK.
However, there is a better solution. Dump your hammers. You won't miss em.
Six Feet Under
11-30-10, 06:47
I would guess thats because of the initial shock of the event. Yet you still felt it pretty quick. He claimed his friend didn't feel it until he saw blood.
I still think that, combined with him saying that the gun went off in a manner which is near impossible, and the fact that it happened while sitting around a campfire at night, leads me to believe that alcohol may have been involved.
I don't disagree with that line of thought, given where/when it happened. However, I had a WAY different injury than his friend in just about every manner, so I did feel it pretty quick.
I'm not a Beretta armorer, but this type of malfunction is almost impossible.
Not an armorer either. And, I'm sure the mechanism is designed in a way to make what happened (again, two sets of eyes on when it happened) extremely unlikely. But, it went bang. *shrug* Stuff breaks. More complicated stuff has more stuff to break.
Magic_Salad0892
11-30-10, 07:24
At least it was a wimpy 9mm. A real caliber like a .45 would have blown his leg clean off.
John_Wayne777
11-30-10, 07:40
I don't like the HK decocker. The way the hammer slams down freaks me out.
The hammer does not slam into the firing pin. It falls forward to it's normal at-rest position, which leaves airspace between the hammer and the firing pin. The only way for the trigger to go fully forward and connect with the firing pin is by pulling the trigger all the way to the rear.
me either.. i always manually dropped my USP. i trust my thumb and index finger more than some plastic parts.
I trust the decocker far more than anybody's fingers, especially since the fingers are attached to a person who can be cold, who can be injured, who can be tired, who can be drunk, or who can just not be paying sufficient attention to the lethal weapon they are holding. There is a reason why decockers were invented, folks. The individual here shot himself most likely because he did something stupid. I'm willing to bet that if he sends the gun to H&K to be checked out that it will check out just fine. In fact, I'll wager a $100.00 gift certificate to G&R Tactical that the gun was not the problem here.
Does this firearms genius have any numbness in the skin of the thigh? That injury put both the anterior and lateral femoral cutaneous nerves at risk.
gtmtnbiker98
11-30-10, 08:09
The CZ and SIG "controlled descent" gives me more warm and fuzzies compared to HK.
However, there is a better solution. Dump your hammers. You won't miss em.Unless you carry AIWB.
I recently had a friend accidentally shoot himself with a Glock. He says that the gun fired while seating a magazine with a round already in the chamber. His son was present and he swears that his Dad's finger was resting on the frame and not on the trigger when the weapon discharged. Weird thing is that the empty casing did not eject from the pistol and was still in the chamber after the incident. Can anyone explain how this is even remotely possible?
Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
The CZ and SIG "controlled descent" gives me more warm and fuzzies compared to HK
True that, the CZ that i had with a decocker was much more comforting.
I find it hard to believe that he "didn't feel a thing". Was he drinking?
+100
I've seen a lot of people who have been shot, not a single one of them every said they didn't feel anything.
I'm still curious how much alcohol was involved prior to this AD.
the more experienced i get with firearms, the more i realize "shoots a lot" does not "experienced with firearms" make.
your buddy might shoot 500 rounds every weekend- he obviously doesn't know the first thing about firearm safety. and i'm talkin regardless of whether or not the trigger was pulled. you don't do ANYTHING to ANY gun EVER while it's pointed at flesh or expensive and/or irreplaceable shit.
so true kinda like the 80 year old driving bad ! chances are they have been doing it wrong their whole life and think forget you I have been doing it this way all my life and never been in a accident ! to bad they caused them !!!!
hope he heals up :)
but one curious question ? camping and hanging out by the fire was their ANY drinking going on ?
I had been to some camping in past when people had guns and started drinking ! and said guns get put away ! when they did not I would leave
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-30-10, 12:18
Tell him I will give him $150 and a pressure bandage for his USP.
CarlosDJackal
11-30-10, 12:47
As the owner of several different model HK's past and present I would have to say;
Accidental Discharge? No. Negligent discharge? Yes.
I'd have to disagree. Unless his hands where anywhere near the trigger, this is not necessarily an ND. Just because it says HK it doesn't mean that it cannot have a malfunction. Anything man made can and will fail.
My question is was he carrying locked-and-cocked? Or did he de-cock it prior to holstering?
Glad he's okay.
eternal24k
11-30-10, 12:55
I'd have to disagree. Unless his hands where anywhere near the trigger, this is not necessarily an ND. Just because it says HK it doesn't mean that it cannot have a malfunction. Anything man made can and will fail.
My question is was he carrying locked-and-cocked? Or did he de-cock it prior to holstering?
Glad he's okay.
well, he was handling it and trying to manipulate the decocker, so I would say his hands were near the trigger.
I say send it to HK for inspection (without stating why), and I am willing to bet there is nothing wrong
OP,
Why did your friend opt to manipulate the weapon with the muzzle pointing in an unsafe direction? Not piling on, just a serious question.
This could have easily been avoided had he pointed the USP in a safe direction while decocking it.
Some people depend upon mechanical safeties, decockers, etc. to keep them safe. While I prefer firearms with these useful gadgets I avoid NDs by keeping firearms pointed in a safe direction and my finger off the trigger.
Suwannee Tim
11-30-10, 15:41
Needless to say, I am highly critical of the people I shoot with now....
I'll say. People regard me as a Safety Nazi a.k.a. PITA on the range. Better that than shot, I know as I have been shot. Hit in the leg, and like the chap in the first post, very lucky. Very, very lucky. A high school friend killed his father with a shotgun turkey hunting. The grief destroyed his mother and the guilt destroyed him. I feel guilty when I think of it because I had given up on educating him. Didn't want to be a PITA. Another friend negligently killed a man. It's an ordeal you do not want to go through. And it is utterly unnecessary. You can be stupid if you want but you better be tough. Trouble with being stupid with a firearms is all too often it is someone else that pays the price.
Hey Six Feet Under, good luck tomorrow, and I hope your recovery is successful.
How much time does this guy have with his USP? A simple research of the gun's history shows that throughout it's entire development and history since then, not once could a USP be made to fire without the safety being off and the trigger being pulled (aside from those guns with broken parts).
That said and assuming that the gun is in correct order, I'm assuming he has little time with it (or at least hasn't familiarized himself with the manual) and either 1) pulled the trigger while using the decocker or 2) took the pistol off safety, held the hammer, and then squeezed the trigger trying to ride it down.
If the state of California can put the USP through its ridiculous drop and safety tests and have it pass with flying colors, then it's either a broken part or operator error. I'm leaning towards the latter.
CarlosDJackal
11-30-10, 21:05
well, he was handling it and trying to manipulate the decocker, so I would say his hands were near the trigger.
I say send it to HK for inspection (without stating why), and I am willing to bet there is nothing wrong
This wouldn't be the first time something like this has happened. I personally know of a similar incident that happened to a local LEO about 6-years ago also with an HK USP in .40 S&W. HK said that there was snothing wrong with the pistol either but we have our suspicions.
Regardless if this was an ND or an AD due to a mechanical failure; had they followed the first rule of gun safety they would not have been injured in the first place.
This wouldn't be the first time something like this has happened. I personally know of a similar incident that happened to a local LEO about 6-years ago also with an HK USP in .40 S&W. HK said that there was snothing wrong with the pistol either but we have our suspicions.
Regardless if this was an ND or an AD due to a mechanical failure; had they followed the first rule of gun safety they would not have been injured in the first place.
Whether by some fluke or form of divine intervention which caused this pistol to fire he would not have shot himself had he been following the four firearms safety rules. As he was clearing not obeying those rules when the weapon fired, resulting in personal injury, I am going to stick with "negligent" versus "accidental".
rickrock305
11-30-10, 21:37
as an owner of a USP, i would NEVER decock that thing pointed anywhere near me or anything else unsafe. i know how its designed, but just that hammer coming down is more than enough to keep it pointed in a completely safe direction when doing so.
We ALL make mistakes. Glad to not see any "stupid", etc. comments. Fortunately, most of our mistakes don't cost us much. This time it cost him some flesh and a bit of embarrassment. I wish him well. Ask him what has he learned from the incident.
SixFeetUnder, brother, I feel for you, man. I wish you all the best, my friend.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-01-10, 08:05
No comments about it being a cross-draw holster? I'd rather cross-dress than cross-draw.
I'm sorry to hear about your friend getting shot. But it's great that he's OK.
Guns break and malfunction. But I have no idea what happened in this situation.
I don't trust any gun 100%. I always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction when decocking, AND when chambering a round too.
Joe Mamma
Magic_Salad0892
12-01-10, 09:31
No comments about it being a cross-draw holster? I'd rather cross-dress than cross-draw.
The guy already embarrassed himself. He might catch on.
So I'm at the range with two people the other day. One, my pal and a very experienced shooter, the other his friend, not so experienced. Both long time LEOs. His friend does a press check by putting his hand on the end of the slide, palm over barrel, to do press check.....:eek:
We had safety discussion with him... Figured it can't hurt to have a basic essential safety discussion vid:
Gun Safety Essentials! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW26EsQuqts)
Did I miss anything important? I know it's not "high speed" info, but if it saves a few people from "hole in hand" syndrome or worse, it was worth doing. Everyone wants to run around like a ninja while all too often, failing to follow ESSENTIAL basic safety concepts.
QuietShootr
12-01-10, 20:02
I had a fraternity brother in college who shot himself in the thigh with a USP 9 in a similar manner...but the round was a 124gr HydraShok and it blew off his left ring finger and severed his left femoral artery. Fortunately the other guy in the room with him (they were Marines) had just gotten back from drill and his 782 gear was still in the living room where it happened. He tied the leg off with a web belt, thereby saving the idiot's life.
I did not see it, but the dude who wrapped him up said that his eyes rolled back in his head and he was out like a light in 15 seconds.
They revived him on the way to the hospital, and his last words before going into surgery were, "Tell QS the 9mm ain't such a pussy round after all." (I was EXTREMELY anti-9mm back then :D)
Same situation. He swore he didn't pull the trigger, but HK inspected the gun and found no problems. Regardless of whether he did or he didn't, he still had his left hand over the muzzle and the gun pointed at his thigh while sitting on the floor indian-style finger****ing it.
Suwannee Tim
12-01-10, 20:53
NEVER fondle a loaded gun. NEVER.
NEVER fondle a loaded gun. NEVER.
And if you do, might be a good idea to have no part of your person in line with the muzzle. :cool:
Suwannee Tim
12-04-10, 06:01
One thing I seldom, I say seldom because I might have seen it but do not remember it, seldom see in the gun safety discussion is self evaluation. It is a hard wired characteristic of humans, indeed, all life to take the path of least experience. The path of least resistance in gun handling is to be sloppy and dangerous. It is also true that most of the time you do not have a Range Officer, Safety Instructor or Safety PITA watching over you correcting your mistakes. Given this natural tendency to be lazy and conserve effort and the lack of feedback what prevents you or me from lapsing into bad habits? Self evaluation. You should be your own harshest critic. Being human, you will make mistakes. I am very careful, diligent and conscientious of safety and I make mistakes. When I make a mistake I recognize the error, put a little mental effort into analyzing the error, decide on a correction and firmly resolve to tighten up. At this point in my life, having decades of experience and highly diligent about safety for almost all that time, the mistakes are small and rare. They nevertheless occur and I am certain would grow in frequency and magnitude if I did not self-correct.
Repeating myself, I have had two friends accidentally kill others. Both times I had repeatedly attempted to correct their bad habits and had given this up, not wanting to be a Pain In The Ass. I should have been a Pain In The Ass. Being a PITA is a thankless job, an aggravation and a hassle. I do it anyway. You should too.
Remember when the "N word" was commonly used? I do. You seldom hear it now. Why? Social consensus and social pressure. We have decided as a society not to use the word and we have largely achieved that goal. We could do the same with poor gun handling by not tolerating it.
We think a lot and talk a lot about self defense, about the SHTF. I have known two people who have accidentally killed men. I do not know anyone who has killed in self-defense. In my limited experience therefore it seems as likely to accidentally hurt someone as to deliberately hurt someone in self defense. I can tell you from first hand observation that accidentally killing someone is a catastrophe of a very high order. It is a life changing event and not for the better. Self defense is as much about preventing your house from burning down, preventing your bank accounts from being plundered, preventing a major lawsuit as it is about shooting an intruder. Self defense is also about gun safety.
No comments about it being a cross-draw holster? I'd rather cross-dress than cross-draw.
Funny, funny:)
I don't like the HK decocker. The way the hammer slams down freaks me out.
Either way, don't point your gun at anything you don't want destroyed.
And keep your damn booger hook off the banger switch.
I have used the decocker on my USP40c a ton however I always use my other hand's thump to slowly ride the hammer home while engaging the decocker lever with the other hand.
I totally agree with you about how the hammer really slams home when you initiate the decocker lever and while I do not think this sets up the potential for something like the OP's story involved, I do find it eases my comfort level and allows me to then use it confidently.
I am still curious if their was booze involved ? only cause of the campfire thing and such ? again not accusing just curious ;)
Bobert0989
12-05-10, 04:27
Someone commented on a Sig as having a "gentle" decocker? My P6 used to scare me when I first got it, and it took a while for me to trust that decocker... is the USP's that much more harsh???
Never owned one, so just a curious george kinda question..
Thanks
Bobby
variablebinary
12-05-10, 04:33
Someone commented on a Sig as having a "gentle" decocker? My P6 used to scare me when I first got it, and it took a while for me to trust that decocker... is the USP's that much more harsh???
Never owned one, so just a curious george kinda question..
Thanks
Bobby
Externally, when the hammer drops it looks and sounds just like when you dry fire, while SIG and CZ make a soft click and ease home
The HK safety design is sound, its just a matter of perception and preference.
Bobert0989
12-05-10, 04:38
Externally, when the hammer drops it looks and sounds just like when you dry fire, while SIG and CZ make a soft click and ease home
The HK safety design is sound, its just a matter of perception and preference.
I do notice, on second glance, that my P6 snaps down to about 1/4 cocked, then drops slowly on down after the deckcocker lever is raising back upwards...
So the USP just DROPS?
Patrick Aherne
12-05-10, 08:04
Were you guys drinking?
Second, some folks here have mentioned lowering the hammer down as you hit the decocker. This is VERY bad. Hit the decocker and let the hammer fall like the weapon's designer intended.
jklaughrey
12-05-10, 08:43
Use the de-cocker as intended. Don't ride it home per se. Or just get rid of this nonsense and buy a Glock. Finger off trigger=SAFE, finger on trigger=FIRE. So simple it just might work.
Suwannee Tim
12-05-10, 09:18
I have a couple of SIGs which have a gentle decocker and a couple of FNs which drop the hammer more sharply. The gentle drop of the SIG is more comforting to me and I often ease the hammer down on the FNs though I'm sure it's not necessary. Regarding a Glock, I just can't get over how little effort it takes to make the gun go bang. Not enough. Fine for a sporting gun, not enough for a duty gun.
Suwannee Tim
12-05-10, 09:20
The question has been asked several times, not answered, I will ask again:
How much booze was consumed?
Externally, when the hammer drops it looks and sounds just like when you dry fire, while SIG and CZ make a soft click and ease home
The HK safety design is sound, its just a matter of perception and preference.
I know for myself, when/if using a gun with decock option, I still make sure nothing of mine is in front of the gun when I use it. :eek:
QuietShootr
12-05-10, 16:14
One thing I seldom, I say seldom because I might have seen it but do not remember it, seldom see in the gun safety discussion is self evaluation. It is a hard wired characteristic of humans, indeed, all life to take the path of least experience. The path of least resistance in gun handling is to be sloppy and dangerous. It is also true that most of the time you do not have a Range Officer, Safety Instructor or Safety PITA watching over you correcting your mistakes. Given this natural tendency to be lazy and conserve effort and the lack of feedback what prevents you or me from lapsing into bad habits? Self evaluation. You should be your own harshest critic. Being human, you will make mistakes. I am very careful, diligent and conscientious of safety and I make mistakes. When I make a mistake I recognize the error, put a little mental effort into analyzing the error, decide on a correction and firmly resolve to tighten up. At this point in my life, having decades of experience and highly diligent about safety for almost all that time, the mistakes are small and rare. They nevertheless occur and I am certain would grow in frequency and magnitude if I did not self-correct.
Repeating myself, I have had two friends accidentally kill others. Both times I had repeatedly attempted to correct their bad habits and had given this up, not wanting to be a Pain In The Ass. I should have been a Pain In The Ass. Being a PITA is a thankless job, an aggravation and a hassle. I do it anyway. You should too.
Remember when the "N word" was commonly used? I do. You seldom hear it now. Why? Social consensus and social pressure. We have decided as a society not to use the word and we have largely achieved that goal. We could do the same with poor gun handling by not tolerating it.
We think a lot and talk a lot about self defense, about the SHTF. I have known two people who have accidentally killed men. I do not know anyone who has killed in self-defense. In my limited experience therefore it seems as likely to accidentally hurt someone as to deliberately hurt someone in self defense. I can tell you from first hand observation that accidentally killing someone is a catastrophe of a very high order. It is a life changing event and not for the better. Self defense is as much about preventing your house from burning down, preventing your bank accounts from being plundered, preventing a major lawsuit as it is about shooting an intruder. Self defense is also about gun safety.
Me too. One was a pure-d mechanical failure and it doesn't matter at all. The system wanted a piece of his ass, and they got it.
Be as careful as you can, then slow down and be even more careful, particularly when you're by yourself and not covered under a school or venue's insurance.
That is all...
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