View Full Version : One and possibly only AK what caliber?
I've been debating buying another AK. I sold a Norinco many years ago. I am having difficulty trying to figure what caliber. I think I will stay away from 5.45 because other than Hornady's loads there is no domestic manufacturer. I have 10k+ rounds of 223 and 556 so there is incentive to purchase a Arsenal 106. Though the magazines are quite a bit more expensive than 7.62X39. I will primarily use it for future AK classes not so much as a defensive rifle. So would you guys go with an Arsenal 106 or 107? Any input appreciated.
Robb Jensen
11-29-10, 21:21
If only one it would be 7.62x39mm for me.
7.62X39 for me as well. Mythic caliber.
7.62x39
One of the best AKs in 7.62 are the Arsenal SGL-21s.
7.62x39
One of the best AKs in 7.62 are the Arsenal SGL-21s.
This would get my vote as well.
If you're only going to have ONE AK, then it should be in 7.62x39mm.
By far the most sustainable cartridge in the system.
kaltesherz
11-29-10, 21:28
I've shot AK's in 7.62, 5.45, and 5.56 and wouldn't hesitate going 5.45. True, there's no domestic production stateside but in the event that it became impossible to get any more imported ammo the demand would spike and someone would produce. 5.45 is much more accurate, flatter shooting, and kicks like a .22 mag. It's also cheap, surplus tins of 1080 rounds still goes for $120 and it's great stuff. Great for training. Cleaning corrosive ammo is easy as long as you know what you're doing. '74 mags aren't much more expensive these days than 7.62 and are waaay cheaper than 5.56 mags. If you're really worried about domestic production than get a 5.56 AK, while US made 7.62x39 is common it's still expensive compared to .223.
There's a lot of info on theakforum.net, I'd suggest checking them out before any AK purchase.
7.62x39mm without hesitation.
My 1 and only AK (not counting the PSL) is 5.45 - but that's because I just gotta be different. Nothing wrong with 39 or .223 either.
Either way you are going to love it - so pick what you want to and run with it. :cool:
I recall LAV saying something in one of the Tactical Arms episodes about the AK47 in 5.56mm potentially having issues. 7.62x39 is my vote.
I would get a 7.62x39 first. It is cheap, can be reloaded with some common .308 bullets, and has very respectable terminal performance with quality domestic hunting rounds. It gives you boundary penetration capabilities that your current 5.56 does not have, and could be used to hunt larger game than the 5.56 or 5.45 (if you ever decided to use it for that purpose).
If you are recoil or muzzle rise averse (not that the 7.62x39 is bad), are concerned about overpenetration in a self defense scenario, want to squeeze every bit of accuracy out of your AK, or wish to standardize your caliber stick with the 5.56. In my opinion, the SLR-106 is the only way to go for a 5.56 AK. It offers a 1:7 chrome lined barrel chambered in 5.56 (instead of .223) and a folding stock for a reasonable price. That will actually be my next purchase when I can scrape together the funds.
The only advantage to 5.45 is that surplus is cheap at the moment. It seems to be a bit less intrinsically accurate than 5.56, and 5.45 is not as effective as the best 5.56 loads. Nobody makes reloading supplies for 5.45, and cheap production ammo is approximately the same price as 5.56 and 7.62x39. The cheap surplus won't last forever, and could vanish with the stroke of a pen. The surplus is also corrosive, which mandates more frequent and thorough cleaning than would otherwise be necessary with an AK. If you plan to shoot very high volumes in the short term with your AK (or stock up big time), the savings might be worth it to you. Given the volume I put through AK's and the disadvantages of the 5.45, adding another caliber that is so similar to 5.56 doesn't make sense to me. YMMV
I would get a 7.62x39 first. It is cheap, can be reloaded with some common .308 bullets
It'll shoot .308 bullets, but it won't shoot them very well. You'll need .311 bullets to get the most out of 7.62x39.
Thanks guys. Pretty much what I figured. Any reason to go with the SGL-21 rather than the SLR 107 other than cost?
Thanks guys. Pretty much what I figured. Any reason to go with the SGL-21 rather than the SLR 107 other than cost?
It depends on how much the folding stock on the SLR-107 and/or country of origin matters to you. The SLR-107 is Bulgarian and the SGL-21 is Russian. AFAIK Arsenal is not currently offering the SGL-21 with a folding stock (they have started offering the SGL-31 5.45x39 rifles with Russian folding stocks). I think the folding stock on the SLR-107 is a great feature.
I have an SLR-107CR and an SGL-21. Both have folding AK-100 series polymer butt stocks (had it added to the SGL-21). From a strictly functional perspective they are about the same. But I have to admit I enjoy owning a Russian-made AK a little more than a Bulgarian-made one.
RAM Engineer
11-30-10, 07:23
7.62x39 in either a Arsenal SLR-107FR (or just 107F) or one of the Russian Arsenal guns in 7.62x39.
If you want 5.56, then get an AR. If you want a 5.45x39, then get a 5.56 AR.
DaBears_85
11-30-10, 08:08
They're currently having the same discussion over on the AKFiles:
http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76432
I know you've already decided on the 7.62x39, and that the rifle won't be used as a defensive weapon. I just found it to be an interesting take on the subject and thought you might enjoy reading it. :)
FWIW, 7.62x39 appears to be the consensus over there as well.
7.62x39 is the only AK caliber I own or would buy in the future.
Arsenal is the way to go for an off the shelf AK but if you are handy and don't mind doing it yourself you can get a rifle customized to your preferences with a Saiga conversion. If you do go Arsenal, the Bulgarian guns are just as good as their Russian counterparts.
7.62X39 seems like a great round for a battle rifle. Kinda nice to shoot with a little more wallop and the recoil isn't bad at all. Love my SGL-21!
5.56 in an AK is a high pressure round in a weapon originally designed for a low pressure round. (60,000 PSI + vs 45,000 PSI) It can be done, but why bother?
Dave
Boonie Packer
crusader377
11-30-10, 14:13
7.62x39. I would recommend an Arsenal SGL-21.
If the OP has so much 5.56mm then maybe a 5.56mm AK would be appropriate.
5.56 in an AK is a high pressure round in a weapon originally designed for a low pressure round.
You would think that with the delayed cycling of the AK system compared to the AR system, the AK would handle 5.56mm NATO pressure ammo with ease. I think that may be the case but I haven't have any extensive experience with 5.56mm AK's.
It will handle it very nicely if the receiver locking lugs are of excellent and properly heat treated steel. The original Galil is an excellent example. If the OP is sure that the receiver is good to go that would help. However there would still be the problems associated with the design of the cartridge case. There is little doubt that an excellent AK in 5.56 would be more reliable than the AR15, but it still would not be as reliable as the original cartridge version. You're right though when considering his intended use.
Dave
Boonie Packer
Something to think about with the SLR-106 series:
Check the feed ramp when you inspect the gun. The older models have a woefully inadequate feed ramp that will result in the nose of a bullet crashing into the edge of the chamber and causing feed issues. If it chambers from the brute force of the bolt closing, it still shaves a sliver off the bullet tip, which can't help accuracy. The newer models took care of this, and actually appear to have a feed ramp. (Supposedly on models with BD and higher as their serial number prefix, although the lady I talked to at Arsenal says that the serial number prefix doesn't necessarily mean a newer gun, so take it for what it's worth.)
How do I know? I just sent mine back to the factory yesterday. It's a used one that's about 4 years old. My guess is that the feeding issue is why it was on the consignment rack.
I do love the gun though...hopefully it will come back with a proper feed ramp.
Moose-Knuckle
11-30-10, 21:12
True, there's no domestic production stateside. . .
Hornady (http://www.hornady.com/store/5.45X39-ammo/) now makes domestic 5.45x39.
Out of my five AKs three are 7.62x39 and two are 5.45x39, if I only could have one it would be a 7.62x39. ;)
I have both the 7.62x39 and the 5.56. To pick one it would be the 7.62x39. As much as I like my SGL21, if I was to have one AK only, I would take one of my SLR 107's (F, CR, or the UR). The folding stock is very nice.
If only one it would be 7.62x39mm for me.
All mine are 7.62x39. I see no reason to get anything else, besides I'm not stockpiling more ****ing magazines. :sarcastic:
Oh, and .223 AK magazines are not as reliable as 7.62 or 5.45.
You would think that with the delayed cycling of the AK system compared to the AR system, the AK would handle 5.56mm NATO pressure ammo with ease. I think that may be the case but I haven't have any extensive experience with 5.56mm AK's.
It is done and it works very well, without any issues in kbk wz. 96 Beryl assault rifle. It is based on 5.45 kbk wz. 88 Tantal, that some you you may know as several Tantal "kits" made it to US. Beryl served our guys very well in Iraq and still serves in A-stan. It's not ergonomical marvel, but it works. Lately factory came up with STANAG 4179 magazine adapter prototype (with enlarged magwell and ambidextrous button magazine release) to allow magazine compatibility with US and UK forces as well as US-equipped ANA forces (helps when SHTF on joint operation).
Rifle:
http://en.fabrykabroni.pl/?d=111
Carbine:
http://en.fabrykabroni.pl/?d=112
Civilian sporting carbine:
http://en.fabrykabroni.pl/?d=116
morbidbattlecry
12-03-10, 22:44
5.45, just because 7.62 weights a ton and a half.
LAV comments about the 5.56 AKs were around the early feeding issues - remedied later. I am sure if you run into an early model, Arsenal would clear this up. The "black" Bulgarian mags are good. Its is the clear ones that can be fragile. And as for mags, the magwell is essentially an AK74 magwell - Robinson Arms sells a 5.56 follower replacement for AK74 mags.
I own all three calibers. All that said, if it had to be one, 7.62x39.
7.62x39mm.
An AR will perform better in every aspect than a AK in 5.45 or 5.56mm IMHO. (Though I'd own both an AK in 5.56mm or 5.45, my first will be in 7.62x39)
7.62x39mm can do things that neither of those calibers can.
ETA: I'm going after the SGL21-71 as soon as I get the funds available, as a side note.
You would think that with the delayed cycling of the AK system compared to the AR system, the AK would handle 5.56mm NATO pressure ammo with ease. I think that may be the case but I haven't have any extensive experience with 5.56mm AK's.
Sounds like the Galil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMI_Galil).
BullittBoy
12-04-10, 10:11
If you want a .223/5.56 AK as stated above buy a Galil or Valmet-they are absolutely awesome rifles to own and shoot and from a "golden age" of assault rifles. I have 2 IMI 5.56 Galils in AR and ARM format-they are built like a tank and have excellent mags.
If you want a 7.62 get the Arsenal new model SGL21, my pop has one and the break does a real good job of taming recoil and it is very accurate for a 7.62x39.
If you want a 5.45 get an Arsenal SLR105-they are expensive now as they are collector's items but worth every penny, very accurate and have a great out of the box trigger and are not "converted" AK's. The receiver and barrel and innerds are 90% Bulgarian and the quality is very high for a stamped AK. The stock also is US length and a bit more comfortable to shoot for some.
I'll buck the 7.62 trend as well. I own a Tantal and a Bulgy 74 and sold off an SLR-107 and MAK-90. I like the 5.45 cartridge and a Bulgarian muzzle brake with zig zag cuts is one of the most effective recoil devices I've ever used.
I do have an M92 kit waiting to be built, but in an SBR I'll stick with 7.62.
I don't mind most people answering this question the way they have though, since that means more cheap 5.45 surplus for me. :laugh:
Moose-Knuckle
12-04-10, 14:35
LAV comments about the 5.56 AKs were around the early feeding issues - remedied later. I am sure if you run into an early model, Arsenal would clear this up. The "black" Bulgarian mags are good. Its is the clear ones that can be fragile. And as for mags, the magwell is essentially an AK74 magwell - Robinson Arms sells a 5.56 follower replacement for AK74 mags.
That's a good nugget of info right there. I have been searching to no avail for info on the 5.56 Circle 10 mags on two different forums. So do the black Arsenal 5.56 mags have steel inserts?
I'm actually considering picking up an SLR-106F or two due to the CHF 1/7" barrel. But the only thing to keep me from buying them to date has been the magazine issue.
That's a good nugget of info right there. I have been searching to no avail for info on the 5.56 Circle 10 mags on two different forums. So do the black Arsenal 5.56 mags have steel inserts?
I'm actually considering picking up an SLR-106F or two due to the CHF 1/7" barrel. But the only thing to keep me from buying them to date has been the magazine issue.
My 106 hasn't had any issues with any of the three types of Bulgarian magazines. 1st or 2nd Gen black polymer, or the clear smoke mags.
The black magazines have the standard steel reinforcements just like the .30 cal waffle mags, which means feed lips and both locking lugs.
The 1st gen mags have the vertical cuts at the top of the magazine for a stripper clip spoon. The 2nd gen mags did away with them.
Moose-Knuckle
12-04-10, 18:52
My 106 hasn't had any issues with any of the three types of Bulgarian magazines. 1st or 2nd Gen black polymer, or the clear smoke mags.
The black magazines have the standard steel reinforcements just like the .30 cal waffle mags, which means feed lips and both locking lugs.
The 1st gen mags have the vertical cuts at the top of the magazine for a stripper clip spoon. The 2nd gen mags did away with them.
Eureka! Thanks Templar! So the black 5.56 mags that K-VAR is selling currently, are they 1st or 2nd gen?
Eureka! Thanks Templar! So the black 5.56 mags that K-VAR is selling currently, are they 1st or 2nd gen?
Should be second gen. I haven't seen any 1st gen for years and years.
SGL-31 (5.45)
With its super cheap ammo you can stack your ammo high. I mean you can't beat $240 for 2160 rounds.
Moose-Knuckle
12-04-10, 19:22
Should be second gen. I haven't seen any 1st gen for years and years.
Very good sir, I think I have a line on a SLR-106CR and would love to SBR it. But until now I didn't really have any good info on the Circle 10 5.56 mags. That's what was keeping me from pulling the trigger on the 106 series. :cool:
Very good sir, I think I have a line on a SLR-106CR and would love to SBR it. But until now I didn't really have any good info on the Circle 10 5.56 mags. That's what was keeping me from pulling the trigger on the 106 series. :cool:
Been worked hard in Colombia and as far as I know, no issues.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Bulgarian%20AKs/auc4L.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Bulgarian%20AKs/2073191paramilitaryfightersofthecal.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Bulgarian%20AKs/Bulgarian5.jpg
Moose-Knuckle
12-05-10, 00:19
Good to know Templar as I haven't read much of the 5.56 AKs in third world shit holes, always 7.62x39.
I don't understand why US or foreign AK manufacturers making improvments to the system, don't set them as a standard.
Arsenal had came out with the SAM7SF and are no longer available.
They had a left side selector switch. very cool.
pics from google images
http://www.arsenal-bg.com/images/defense_police/thumbnails/7.62-AR-M4SF.gif
http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/addax/IMG_9836.jpg
US companies would really do well if they incorporate something like an improved selector switch (among other things) as a standard for the whole line of AK rifles they sell, instead of having the consumer buy after market products.
I don't understand why US or foreign AK manufacturers making improvments to the system, don't set them as a standard.
Arsenal had came out with the SAM7SF and are no longer available.
They had a left side selector switch. very cool.
pics from google images
http://www.arsenal-bg.com/images/defense_police/thumbnails/7.62-AR-M4SF.gif
http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/addax/IMG_9836.jpg
US companies would really do well if they incorporate something like an improved selector switch (among other things) as a standard for the whole line of AK rifles they sell, instead of having the consumer buy after market products.
Successfully achieved thread drift.
This was from 2005, with a shitty camera.
The SA-M7SF was expensive even back then. The selector worked like the military IMI Galils, which means back to fire, forward for safe, which is really opposite of how it should be.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/7sffolded.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/7sfsafety.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/7sfleftfront.jpg
Successfully achieved thread drift.
I think I had a few AK threads opened and posted in the wrong one.
My 106 hasn't had any issues with any of the three types of Bulgarian magazines. 1st or 2nd Gen black polymer, or the clear smoke mags.
The black magazines have the standard steel reinforcements just like the .30 cal waffle mags, which means feed lips and both locking lugs.
The 1st gen mags have the vertical cuts at the top of the magazine for a stripper clip spoon. The 2nd gen mags did away with them.
I just purchased (2) 20-round clear smoke mags from K-Var, and they have steel feed lips and locking lugs (assuming this is the piece on the backside of the mag that catches in the magwell).
Since your primary goal for this rifle is to use it in AK classes I would suggest 7.62 x 39 due to the cheap readily available magazines unless you buy a plethora of 5.56 magazines. I have broke several magazines during training classes due to ejecting them onto hard surfaces.
Moose-Knuckle
12-06-10, 13:57
Since your primary goal for this rifle is to use it in AK classes I would suggest 7.62 x 39 due to the cheap readily available magazines unless you buy a plethora of 5.56 magazines. I have broke several magazines during training classes due to ejecting them onto hard surfaces.
What part of the magazine hit the ground and what broke on the magazine, were they Bulgarian double circle 10 polymer 7.62x39mags?
I'm interested because I myself am considering putting the original Magpuls on my mags for this very reason.
The magazines I broke were steel AR magazines. They were rapidly ejected from a standing position onto concrete or gravel. I am not sure which portion of the magazines hit the ground as I was in the middle of high speed drills. I have had the follower stick on one magazine and likely damaged the feeding lips on another as it would no longer seat properly. I plan on using P or EMags next time I do this as I have dropped glock mags at least hundreds of times onto the same surface with no problems.
parishioner
08-04-11, 15:16
I'm looking to get my first AK and there certainly is a lot to consider. I'm interested in the AK because I would like to have an example of the species but I'm still wrestling with why I want an AK exactly and how I foresee myself using it.
I've seen Templar's recommendation of getting 7.62, 5.54, and 5.56 in that order which agrees with most in this thread but I'm quite attracted to the 5.56 mainly due to the cost of an SLR-106 side folder and the fact that its a little more versatile in regard to ammo selection. I like that fact that I could throw a magazine of 75gr. TAP in there if I wanted to as well as shoot Wolf all day long. I've also read about fears about possible legislation with foreign ammo and the fact that surplus ammo could dry up any time which also leads me to want a 5.56.
But then I think to myself, if I'm getting an AK don't I want something that shoots something other than what my ARs shoot? Surplus ammo is obviously dirt cheap which means I could shoot more but its also corrosive and I'm not sure I want to deal with that. I don't know, I'm going around and around.
I have a SLR-106F, which is currently my only AK. I'm not opposed to getting another in 7.62, but ammo commonality with my ARs is a big plus. I'm too lazy to bother with the proper cleaning required for corrosive ammo, which is why 5.45 holds no interest for me, as most of the ammo cost savings come from shooting corrosive surplus.
The 1:7 twist chrome lined CHF barrel is very accurate, and though I haven't done any empirical comparison, seems to be as accurate as the same spec barrel on my active AR. The recoil is very manageable, especially with the AK-74 brake on there.
Mags aren't terribly expensive at around $30 a copy from k-VAR for Circle 10s. This is obviously more than PMAGs, but less than SCAR-17 mags at the going rate. The clear waffle mags sure look nifty, but aren't as durable as the black ones. A few of mine are starting to show cracks without being abused. I'll keep an eye on them and pitch them if they start causing problems. Also an AK LULA will work just dandy on 5.56 AK mags too.
Regarding your comments on ammo selection, take a good look at the feed ramp in any 5.56 AK you look at. The early ones (like mine) didn't have one to speak of because the 7.62 round doesn't really need it with the more pronounced taper. Mine took a trip back to the factory and another trip out to an armorer who's also a mod on here before I got 100% feeding reliability. Steel case may actually be a bit more reliable in this instance because of the greater rigidity compared to brass, though after the last work I had done, it's been 100%.
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