View Full Version : Training course in a ban state: weapon mods?
I'm interested in taking an AK operators course being held in CA next year. Coming from AZ I know I will have to stock up on 10 round mags, (ugh), but what about the pistol grip? Will my weapon have to be modified to a buttstock only type setup for the training? Searched the site to no avail and any info is appreciated.
xrayoneone
11-30-10, 21:42
It needs to be CA compliant so no pistol grip if you don't have a bullet button on your AK. http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#24
Who is holding the class out here? I would wait for that person to have a class in AZ.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-01-10, 09:35
It needs to be CA compliant so no pistol grip if you don't have a bullet button on your AK. http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#24
Who is holding the class out here? I would wait for that person to have a class in AZ.
THat is if you are moving to the state. My understanding is that if you are taking a class or competing you do not have to molest your guns. There was a post here about it awhile ago, but I would make sure I have out of state ID and a copy of something proving the event you are there for.
There is a lot of wiggle room between my understanding and your ass on the line.
Capt. Kirk or another CA LEO I'm sure can definitively answer the question.
xrayoneone
12-01-10, 12:29
California PC 12280(m)(1) states if you are going to or from an organized competition and you are not a resident of this state then you are good. It doesn't say anything about training though you are probably right and legal precedent NOW is to allow a non-resident to bring them into the state. My personal experience training in this state is that nobody asked anyone any questions regarding their firearms. However, I also know that traffic enforcement goes on near some shooting ranges. I'm not a local cop here but I work with them and my advice is tread lightly. Many of these guys are the greatest dudes you'll meet but as with anything else you have your bad apples or the ones that don't see things the way you do, especially when it comes to firearms.
If you want a better legal standing then follow this link and talk to these people: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/contact.php
Who is holding the class out here? I would wait for that person to have a class in AZ.
It's a Larry Vickers course taught by the man himself that I really want to take. Not sure what keeps him from scheduling in AZ, but none have been held here that I am aware of.
My understanding is that if you are taking a class or competing you do not have to molest your guns... I would make sure I have out of state ID and a copy of something proving the event you are there for.
There is a lot of wiggle room between my understanding and your ass on the line.
Encouraging info and good advice FMCDH. Thanks. I'll see what I can confirm.
California PC 12280(m)(1) states if you are going to or from an organized competition and you are not a resident of this state then you are good. It doesn't say anything about training though you are probably right and legal precedent NOW is to allow a non-resident to bring them into the state. My personal experience training in this state is that nobody asked anyone any questions regarding their firearms. However, I also know that traffic enforcement goes on near some shooting ranges. I'm not a local cop here but I work with them and my advice is tread lightly. Many of these guys are the greatest dudes you'll meet but as with anything else you have your bad apples or the ones that don't see things the way you do, especially when it comes to firearms.
If you want a better legal standing then follow this link and talk to these people: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/contact.php
Thanks for the info and link xray11. I'm keeping hope alive that this can happen. Appreciate the posts.
My suggestion, is instead of spending the money on 10 round mags, pick up a monsterman grip for your AK, or one of those fins that wraps around the pistol grip preventing you from wrapping your thumb around the grip. This is a legal and cheaper alternative to the bullet button and ten round magazine provided your rifle does not have a flash suppressor on it.
Also, regardless of which route you go, make sure to transport it in the altered state to be legal with CA laws and then make the enquiries about reverting back to normal once you get to the training venue, if they allow it, make the swap back to normal configuration and then swap back at the conclusion of the training day. Even if its legal for out of state individuals to transport normally legally, most beat cops won't know that, so its better to CYA in that manner.
...pick up a monsterman grip for your AK, or one of those fins that wraps around the pistol grip preventing you from wrapping your thumb around the grip. This is a legal and cheaper alternative to the bullet button and ten round magazine provided your rifle does not have a flash suppressor on it.
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I like the sound of that rero. Will look into these grips. I do already have two 10 rnd mags and a thread protector on the muzzle, but most of my mags are 30 rnd. Good info sir thank you.
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Also, regardless of which route you go, make sure to transport it in the altered state to be legal with CA laws and then make the enquiries about reverting back to normal once you get to the training venue, if they allow it, make the swap back to normal configuration and then swap back at the conclusion of the training day. Even if its legal for out of state individuals to transport normally legally, most beat cops won't know that, so its better to CYA in that manner.
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Again great advice that I will certainly heed. I have no problem playing by the rules as long as I know what they are! Thanks again for your post.
I'm pretty sure they make Bullet Buttons for AK's no? I know they have AK-variants floating around in this state. That might be another simple installation if you want to retain the pistol grip.
If you have questions about the lovely laws in this state, check out the CalGuns.net wiki (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Main_Page#Semiautomatic_Rifles) and especially the Assault Weapon Flowchart (http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf) that they put together.
Regardless of the what the fine print says, you do not want to be pulled over and somehow searched and discovered with any kind of "assault weapons" in your trunk. Lots of LEO won't be that educated about the topic. At the least you'll be in for a long traffic stop... at the worst, you'll need to call for legal advice. Before your trip, you might want to print copies of any applicable laws and keep them in your gun case for ease of reference (along with the above flowchart) if the worst happens.
Aside from the crazy gun laws, it's a great state to visit... I swear! :sarcastic:
PRGGodfather
12-08-10, 00:03
THat is if you are moving to the state. My understanding is that if you are taking a class or competing you do not have to molest your guns. There was a post here about it awhile ago, but I would make sure I have out of state ID and a copy of something proving the event you are there for.
There is a lot of wiggle room between my understanding and your ass on the line.
Capt. Kirk or another CA LEO I'm sure can definitively answer the question.
Yup. Absolutely correct.
Who is hosting the class? If it is an SO range, and a mixed LE/civilian class, you will have little fuss. Blow in, and blow out.
Obey the law. Don't get pulled over. Have your stuff in a locked container, and you should be fine. At the class itself, there should no hassle as a registered student for the 2-3 days.
CALDOJ cannot issue a permit fast enough for the 2-3 days, so realistically, if you can manage to obey the traffic laws (and a warrant is needed for all locked containers), you should be fine.
Still, vet this yourself, call the course coordinators and take the best advice. PM me if you need a contact at CALDOJ, but you will find having an LE host is the simplest way to avoid drama.
Scootle and PRGGodfather,
Thanks very much for the replies, links and offer for contacts. Your time is appreciated!
I'll contact the host there and confirm everything, but it sounds to be doable. Will follow the advise to have documentation of everything on hand as well, good call. By the way you are right, CA is a beautiful state to visit! Thanks again for all the help.
Scootle and PRGGodfather,
I'll contact the host there and confirm everything, but it sounds to be doable. Will follow the advise to have documentation of everything on hand as well, good call. By the way you are right, CA is a beautiful state to visit! Thanks again for all the help.
Echoed... Contact the host range/organization. They should have all the regs ironed out.
Jeff
dookie1481
12-08-10, 12:04
I took a course from LAV in CA last year; I live in Las Vegas. I researched this quite a bit and could find NO EVIDENCE of any exception to any CA regulations that pertained to training courses. I ended up borrowing 10-round mags from a member here to avoid any sort of potential problems. I highly suggest you tread lightly and contact the CA DOJ before you bring anything in state.
And don't think being a "good guy" will get you off the hook with the cops; a member in the BARFCOM NV hometown forum posted a story about his active-duty Marine nephew being arrested for having a loaded 1911 locked in a safe in his car.
Jay
Edit: I forgot to add that this was for a pistol course so there may be a difference between "high-capacity" mags and other banned features.
I'll contact the host there and confirm everything, but it sounds to be doable. Will follow the advise to have documentation of everything on hand as well, good call. By the way you are right, CA is a beautiful state to visit! Thanks again for all the help.
Yeah, if this is a Vickers-sanctioned course, I'd be shocked if they don't set you up properly coming from out of state. I'd also be shocked if you didn't have LEO classmates who could help you out.
And don't think being a "good guy" will get you off the hook with the cops; a member in the BARFCOM NV hometown forum posted a story about his active-duty Marine nephew being arrested for having a loaded 1911 locked in a safe in his car.
In CA you can't have a loaded anything outside your home (or other designated areas)... loaded anything in an automobile is a HUGE no-no, esp. if they catch you. Question is... how did they get a warrant to open up the locked safe in the car? I am pretty sure it requires a warrant to search locked containers, so there is more to the story than just that one issue.
Some people advise not even packing ammo/magazines in the same container as a gun so there is no possibility of LEO making a "mistake".
Yeah, we live in a crazy place, but we make-do.
dookie1481
12-08-10, 18:40
Yeah, if this is a Vickers-sanctioned course, I'd be shocked if they don't set you up properly coming from out of state. I'd also be shocked if you didn't have LEO classmates who could help you out.
In CA you can't have a loaded anything outside your home (or other designated areas)... loaded anything in an automobile is a HUGE no-no, esp. if they catch you. Question is... how did they get a warrant to open up the locked safe in the car? I am pretty sure it requires a warrant to search locked containers, so there is more to the story than just that one issue.
Some people advise not even packing ammo/magazines in the same container as a gun so there is no possibility of LEO making a "mistake".
Yeah, we live in a crazy place, but we make-do.
No, it was a car accident, they asked and he told them that there was a weapon in the car. I understand the circumstances are different, my point is, if you do end up breaking the rules, don't expect the police to let you off because you're a "good guy".
Jay
dookie1481
12-08-10, 18:42
Yeah, if this is a Vickers-sanctioned course, I'd be shocked if they don't set you up properly coming from out of state. I'd also be shocked if you didn't have LEO classmates who could help you out.
I took LAV's Basic Pistol and I couldn't get anyone to help me out with this shit either...I took it upon myself to try and find the answer.
The answer I found: no one seems to know if it's ok or not.
Jay
i just built a new rifle, when i was planning on heading into enemy lines. ask Titleist about it- he's got the skinny on heading into cali for training. i'm pretty sure he even took SBRs, but that's just going from foggy memory.
personally, i wouldn't trust any "law" to protect me. laws aren't for the citizen, this day and age- they're against.
titsonritz
12-14-10, 17:45
Snappy do you have more info on the class your talking about? When and where is it? I'd like to go, but I do not see it on Vickers training schedule. Tactical Response will be in Sac in Feb I'd like to go but will not risk it without further info.
http://vickerstactical.com/training-by-larry-vickers/2011-training-schedule/
Also FWIW I spoke to a gal in the AG's office and she told me you can not bring an AK to California for training, only competion. I was not fully confident in her knowledge and intend to keep trying. I want something in writing before I cross that line.
Snappy do you have more info on the class your talking about? When and where is it?
The course is stickied in the Training Course Announcements & AAR's section here under Vickers Tactical. Is scheduled for Aug 20-21 2011 in Chino CA.
Also FWIW I spoke to a gal in the AG's office and she told me you can not bring an AK to California for training, only competion. I was not fully confident in her knowledge and intend to keep trying. I want something in writing before I cross that line.
It is proving to be difficult to get definitive answers, however it turns out I won't be able to take this course after all. A horse packing trip I was asked to guide on in Mongolia is now a go and I'll be over there for all of Aug. AK training, at least with Mr. Vickers, will have to wait. Many MANY thanks to all for sharing info in this thread. Maybe it'll point the next person in the right direction and avoid hassles or worse. Cheers all-
It is proving to be difficult to get definitive answers, however it turns out I won't be able to take this course after all. A horse packing trip I was asked to guide on in Mongolia is now a go and I'll be over there for all of Aug. AK training, at least with Mr. Vickers, will have to wait. Many MANY thanks to all for sharing info in this thread. Maybe it'll point the next person in the right direction and avoid hassles or worse. Cheers all-
Wow... horse packing in Mongolia?! I would definitely love to see the AAR for that one! :) Good luck!
Wow... horse packing in Mongolia?! I would definitely love to see the AAR for that one! :) Good luck!
Thanks! Schedule as of now is 26 days in the saddle in the remote northern part of the country. I am looking greatly forward to it.
We will actually be accompanied by a small group of soldiers, including a couple officers who have done the trip before with the trip leader, who is a good friend of mine. The soldiers carry AK's on the trip and I'm *hoping* my enthusiasm will encourage them to share their training and shooting skills along the way. ;) Will definitely take pics of the weapons and soldiers to post here for those interested.
If coming from Nevada for pistol training are you required to have 10 round magazines? I'm going to be signing up with USTC in San Diego and want to know if I can take my class with full capacity magazines.
dookie1481
12-26-10, 23:10
If coming from Nevada for pistol training are you required to have 10 round magazines? I'm going to be signing up with USTC in San Diego and want to know if I can take my class with full capacity magazines.
No magazines with a capacity >10 rounds...I had to borrow 10 round mags from a member here for a LAV class in LA.
CA law [PC 12020(a)(2)] prohibits the importation of large capacity magazines, there is no training/competition exemption to this law. If you are a LEO, you are exempt.
CA law [PC 12280(m)] allows the importation of "assault weapons" for use in a nationally or state recognized competition. This exemption does not apply to training.
PC 12280
(m) Subdivisions (a), and (b), and (c) shall not apply to the possession and importation of an assault weapon or a .50 BMG rifle into this state by a nonresident if all of the following conditions are met:
(1) The person is attending or going directly to or coming directly from an organized competitive match or league competition that involves the use of an assault weapon or a .50 BMG rifle.
(2) The competition or match is conducted on the premises of one of the following:
(A) A target range that holds a regulatory or business license for the purpose of practicing shooting at that target range.
(B) A target range of a public or private club or organization that is organized for the purpose of practicing shooting at targets.
(3) The match or competition is sponsored by, conducted under the auspices of, or approved by, a law enforcement agency or a nationally or state recognized entity that fosters proficiency in, or promotes education about, firearms.
(4) The assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle is transported in accordance with Section 12026.1 or 12026.2.
(5) The person is 18 years of age or over and is not in a class of persons prohibited from possessing firearms by virtue of Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code.
PC 12020
(a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.
(c)(25) As used in this section, "large-capacity magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
(B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
(C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action firearm.
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