View Full Version : New Pistol Questions
First post.
I appreciate the professionalism I see here. Most other boards seem to have been created of, by, and for people who care more about one brand or design than they do about winning fights. I like not seeing that here.
Now, on to my questions.
I’m a seasoned shooter, but I’m old-school: I started shooting 1911’s as a kid, I was an 18C for six years on ODA’s in 1st SFG(A) and 7th SFG(A), and I’ve taken deer and other game with magnum revolvers. I stopped following the pistol market after I got my current 1911 dialed in about 15 years ago. It’s getting a little tired and I have a birthday coming up, so I’m buying myself a new EDC pistol, holster, belt, light, spare mags, 2-3 cases of ammo for train-up, and the train-up itself. Once the train-up is done, the Colt goes into war stock and I stick with the new piece—no daily back-and-forth.
Total budget is $3-4k, starting with renting guns at local ranges, but I want to cut the non-starters up front, so I’m seeking opinions. Thus far, I’m thinking:
• One trigger pull: SAO, DAO, or striker-fired
• Night sights, maybe upgrading to red-dot sights later
• Factory rail
• No bigger/heavier than a 1911A1
• Caliber?
• Probably a polymer frame
As near as I can tell, the makers worth considering are HK, Glock, the S&W M&P series, and maybe Springfield. I’d also consider a new 1911 or upgrading my current 1911.
Have I overlooked anything?
Thank you in advance for your time and opinions, and thank you again for the professionalism. It really is a breath of fresh air.
Okie John
kaltesherz
11-30-10, 18:52
What's the purpose of this new handgun? Meaning is this for CCW, bedside, or secondary for carbine class?
You'll get a lot of suggestions for the Glock 17/19 and the S&W M&P series, both being excellent platforms that you could buy, train up on, and tweek to your liking for well under 1k including holster / spare mags / duty ammo. Both are also easy to work on yourself, no need to send off to a gunsmith should you want to modify which saves on time an money.
I've got a G19 that is my primary CCW (replaced my Kimber) and a friend has a M&P with the APEX sear that I've tried out a few times and it's pretty hard to say which is better.
Oh, and if I had a pretty big budget I'd check out the HK 45C too, if I had to go .45 all over again I'd probably pick one of those up in a heartbeat
ETA: Welcome! This forum is pretty awesome, I think you'll like it here...
What's the purpose of this new handgun? Meaning is this for CCW, bedside, or secondary for carbine class?
All of the above. I'm a simple man.
Okie John
kaltesherz
11-30-10, 19:10
Try out a Gen III G19, they're pretty hard to beat for all around use
It's hard to beat a Glock 19 in my opinion. It's big enough to shoot easily, yet easily concealable. It is also relatively inexpensive to buy and shoot. Should leave your budget intact to so you can focus on ammo, training, and practice. It's also a gun that my wife can shoot very very well, which is also a plus.
I was a die hard 1911 man till I bought my full size M&P in 357sig. Being a LE gun it came with factory Novak night sites which I replaced with the Heinie Ledge setup and of course the Apex Tactical Sear. Total cost was under $700 for the whole package and I remain amazed at the capabilities of the 357 sig round. For an all around duty, ccw or just nightstand gun you cannot go wrong with this package. Coupled with a good tac light (I use a Insight Procyon) your set for just about anything that you could face. Some will argue that the round is spendy but I manage to buy Speer Lawman by the case at approx $350 shipped which is cheaper than 45 acp ammo. I carried a 1911 on duty as a LEO for years and wish that this pakage had been available then. Now to pick up a M&P compact for a backup gun to replace my 9mm ! One more advantage to this platform is the ability to turn the gun into a 40s&w with just a barrel change and the barrels run about $70.
SIG's are also pretty good. 226 220 232 are all good options for what they're designed to do, respectively. all are DA/SA with de-cocking levers. defiantly a great option. Glock 17 Is also really good, it seems the Gen IV's have been having some problem's so sticking with a reliable ugly Gen III will be your best bet right now. but hey, there's nothing prettier than an ugly gun being used beautifully.
:big_boss:
It's hard to beat the simplicity, ruggedness, reliability and price of a Glock. You've got a huge range of options-In 9mm, I'd recommend the G17 and G19, but you also might like the G34. In .45 ACP, I'd recommend the G21, which is available in several configurations.
If you prefer cocked-and-locked, an HK 45 and/or HK45C come to mind.
Best, Jon
Cagemonkey
11-30-10, 19:45
I'm going to jump in with the Glock 19 crowd also. Small enough to carry, large enough to grasp and shoot effectively with 15 rds of 147gn 9mm bonded HP's. It can also mount a weapon light for bedside use.
Have I overlooked anything?
No, seems like you have it covered, the question is what priorities are more important to you, as some of things you listed are a bit contradictory (i.e. considering another 1911 and polymer frame).
• One trigger pull: SAO, DAO, or striker-fired I'd cut DAO just because why make life harder, when there are so many good options without 9 lbs 1.5 inch pull? Glock, M&P, HK LEM or cocked and locked options..
• Night sights, maybe upgrading to red-dot sights later Most will opt for aftermarket sights anyway; with reddot, most experience is with Glock and M&P
• Factory rail just about any maker
• No bigger/heavier than a 1911A1 that's a criterion easy to meat :)
• Caliber? 9 if you want shoot more, 40 or 45 if you want better performance against intermediate barriers
• Probably a polymer frame
As near as I can tell, the makers worth considering are HK, Glock, the S&W M&P series, and maybe Springfield . I’d also consider a new 1911 or upgrading my current 1911.
I think you should first decide if you want to standartize on 1911 so you keep familiar features, MoA, caliber, holster, and have a trusted replacement ready if something happens with primary, or you just want something different...
GermanSynergy
11-30-10, 20:13
Glock 17/19 are hard to beat. :)
SIG's are also pretty good.
Thanks. I've shot a bunch of SIGs over the years, but I never met one that felt good in my hand.
Okie John
No, seems like you have it covered, the question is what priorities are more important to you, as some of things you listed are a bit contradictory (i.e. considering another 1911 and polymer frame).
I understand. It's contradictory because I'm confused. 1911's were the ticket when I had that one built, but pistols and ammunition have evolved and you guys make a strong case for a Glock 9mm. Then there's 35 years with the 1911 platform and 15 years with my current specimen--that has value, too.
Just trying to sort it all out...
Okie John
Welcome sir - good to have you on board.
Lot of good choices out there and you've an accomplished background. Probably help to define your primary need/use of the pistol to get the best input. CCW would be different from 3-gun, etc. Don't know if you've a caliber preference but that might help narrow the search. Do you prefer a rail for a light attachment? Probably no 'bad' choices out there, just some that might be better for your application than others.
It's hard to beat the G19 when it comes to a do-everything-all-arounder handgun. It size makes it great for home defense, CCW, training or competition.
Try out a Gen III G19, they're pretty hard to beat for all around use
Anyway, I just went through the arduous process of purchasing what I expect will be my last handgun.
After looking around I decided that I really really liked the, 'fishtail' scallops on those few Glock 9mm's that are still out there. I, also, found that Glock's soon to be discontinued civilian, 'RTF2' finish was actually superior to the much smoother finish on the older 3rd generation frames.
Now I was in trouble! It took me two weeks of canvassing local dealers over a 75 mile radius before I finally discovered a dealer who had exactly one G-19 with scallops and an RTF2 finish left in stock. An hour before I called he'd had two; so, I made him promise to hold the last one for me, jumped into the truck, and made the long ride out to his shop.
Then it started: $500.00 for the basic pistol with the usual crappy plastic sights; and, $100.00 for the addition of a set of night sights. Now for, 'the build'. The very first thing I did was to call Wolff Gunsprings and order a, '+ power' spring for everything on the pistol.
I, also, ordered Wolff's excellent NP3 coated, non-captured steel guide rod. (The Wolff rod is, ever so slightly, thicker than other manufacturer's steel guide rods and seems to be less binding and more slippery, too.)
After Wolff Gunsprings, I contacted Lone Wolf Distributors and ordered: their, 'Ultimate Trigger Stop'. (Which when I'm done installing it, is epoxied permanently in place.) I, also, added: an extended slide lock, and an extended slide stop, too. In my opinion, Lone Wolf offers the very best aftermarket connector in the business; so, I picked up a lighter 4.5# (nominal, 3.5#) connector, too.
Because of ATF restrictions the, G-19 (At least the Austrian G-19's which my new pistol is.) comes with an annoying serrated trigger. I changed this to a smooth-faced G-17 trigger (bar). Then came the stoning and polishing! Exactly 13 hours later I had a G-19 with a completely mirror-polished lockwork, extra, '+ power' springs, and a permanently installed trigger stop.
I am not one of those people who trust Glock's new 4th generation pistols. (I mean, Hell, it took the factory more than 10 years to finally get most of the 3rd generation pistols right.) So, I had only considered buying another 3rd generation Glock. When I took my new G-19 to the range - Guess what! - it ran, 'like a Rolex' - 'Like a Rolex'! :p
Welcome sir - good to have you on board.
Lot of good choices out there and you've an accomplished background. Probably help to define your primary need/use of the pistol to get the best input. CCW would be different from 3-gun, etc. Don't know if you've a caliber preference but that might help narrow the search. Do you prefer a rail for a light attachment? Probably no 'bad' choices out there, just some that might be better for your application than others.
Thank you.
This gun will be for CCW in a major metro area. I can conceal a 1911, and I don't shoot J-frame Smiths well, so a truly tiny pistol has little appeal. A Glock 17 with the frame shortened to G19 length, possibly with a Trijicon sight, seems to make sense.
I think a light is a good idea, but don't know whether I should leave it on there 24/7 and buy a holster that accomodates it.
I've avoided discussing cartridges because I didn't want to restart the caliber wars. I've read what Jeff Cooper, Gabe Suarez, LAV, Martin Fackler, Elmer Keith, Thompson-LaGarde, Julian Hatcher, Marshall/Sanow, Cirillo, and others have say about it. If you have input, I'm all ears.
Okie John
Beat Trash
11-30-10, 21:19
The Glock 19 is an excellent gun. The full size Glock 17 isn't all that big either for someone used to carrying a 5" 1911.
I prefer the Glock 19 if forced to pick only Glock pistol. It's my favorite "do all" gun from Glock.
The S&W M&P, is also a gun I'd strongly recommend you try out. With the M&P, just pick your favorite caliber and have at it.
As much as I love my Gen3 Glock 19's, I shoot my M&P 9mm's better.
I'd strongly recommend you borrowing or renting a Glock 19/17 and an M&P. Shoot them side by side. Then buy which ever gun you shoot better.
As far as weapon lights go, I am not permitted to have a weapon light attached while at work. But then I was a LEO long before reliable weapon lights for handguns existed. (I'm a LEO in an agency of about 1,120 officers, issued the 9mm M&P for going on our 5th year.)
The logic for a weapon mounted light is sound when talking about defensive guns. The issue is the concealment holster. If you use an IWB holster, the light will be thicker than the gun. If a CCW gun becomes a "pain in the ass" literally, then you're less likely to carry it each and every day.
My "bedroom" pistol resides with a light attached to the rail. But it never sees a holster.
Should you own a weapon light? I'd say yes. Should you leave it on 100% of the time? That would depend on your specific needs. Honestly, only you are in a position to answer that one.
Around the house for auto pistols we have Glocks, SIGs, one new M&P for the wife, and my HK's. Based on you needs and budget I'd take a hard look at the HK P30 in either .40S&W (for defense) or 9mm (for every other use).
Also, welcome aboard.
Another vote for a Gen 3 Glock.
I'd only add that unless you plan on CCW, I'd opt for a G17.
The G19 shines because of it's ability to conceal so well, yet is not a sub-compact. If you're not carrying it concealed, I think the G17 offers a bit more.
Drew
I carry 9mm Glocks, and j-frames as backups.
Having said that, if you are proficient and confident with your 1911, and are comfortable using it in the various roles you mentioned, I'd say stick with what you know.
By that I mean buy an additional 5" .45 1911, a duty-grade one. A Springfield Pro model would probably be of sufficiently-good quality.
Having two of any handgun to be used for serious purposes is something I started doing several years back. As a result, I have two Glock 34s, two Glock 19s, and two S&W 642s; you get the idea. If you have two identical guns, and one goes down for maintenance, you still have an operational one while the other is being repaired.
This also allows commonality of ammo, holsters, magazines, parts, training devices (blue guns),etc.
If your current 1911 is a bit "tired", you could have a competent 1911 smith check it over and make any necessary tuning, repairs or upgrades. It can become your second 1911.
Then there's 35 years with the 1911 platform and 15 years with my current specimen--that has value, too.
Just trying to sort it all out...
Okie John
That certainly cannot and should not be discarded. Getting a new 1911 would be a path of least resistance, although also of a higher cost - both upfront and remote; I am really bothered with prices of 45 ACP ammo. On positive side, no new manual of arms, and old trusted piece is always available.
Anything else will make you learn new trigger system and adjust to new ergos - some people find learning enjoyable and helpful in long-term (even though short-term results suck); some people can't stand anything other than 1911 trigger.
Glock will present least problems with trigger adjustment, but most problems with ergos; no matter what people say, grip reductions don't make that grip angle "just like 1911".
M&P will present least ergo adjustment issues, but stock trigger is meh.
HK LEM will give most trigger adjustment difficulties (unless you go C&L) and some ergo issues.
The single best multi use (SD/HD/CCW) gun for me, and apparently many others here, is the G19.
But for the OP, I think the best choice is a new 1911.
I'm pretty much hard core Glock for my own uses,but since the 1911 has been your defense for so long,I'd suggest sticking with it. With a budget of 3-4K for your new gun,you can afford to be selective. I'd look at the offerings from Ed Brown,Les Baer,and Wilson.
You absolutely will not go wrong with any of these.
ghettomedic
12-01-10, 16:50
You mentioned wanting this as an EDC, HD and class gun and mentioned a rail as a must-have. Would you run any kind of weapon-mounted light while carrying concealed? If so, I would echo the previous sentiments regarding the Glock 19.
If not, HK45 cocked and locked or M&P45 with TS, as these have the most crossover from your previous experience with 1911s. Both seem a tad large to conceal comfortably with light attached, although my EDC is a Glock 30 with TLR-1 and I don't have any issues.
For 3-4k I would stick with what you know and grab a new 1911. Personally I would go with a Springfield TRP. Take some money and have you current pistol revived by a competent gunsmith for a backup. You already are familiar with the 1911 and there isn't a gun that has a better trigger out there.
I have spent the last few years trying to find the "ultimate" in pistols and somehow I always end up back at the 1911. There is a reason it is still in service after a hundred years. Glocks, HKs, Smith and Wessons are all great guns. If you went with one of them you might be happy. But it sounds to me like the 1911 is where you should stay.
Thanks again to everyone for all the answers. To clarify, the budget I listed is for everything--live-fire research, retraining, accessories, ammo, etc.--not just the pistol itself.
Also, a LOT of you recommend the Glock 17 and 19. Not to restart the caliber wars, what are your thoughts on the 22 and 23? I've read LAV's remarks on them, but I've also read that CAG is using them now, and those people don't tolerate half-assed gear.
Thanks,
Okie John
Militant83
12-01-10, 17:18
First off welcome to the board. You cant go wrong with the gen3 Glock 17/19. Great gun for ccw and home defense. No thought og having to switch the safety to fire before taking the shot that could possibly save your life. Also they are pretty rugged as far as a handgun goes.
But if I had your budget id also pick up an HK as well just to shoot and add to my collection.
Militant83
12-01-10, 17:22
Thanks again to everyone for all the answers. To clarify, the budget I listed is for everything--live-fire research, retraining, accessories, ammo, etc.--not just the pistol itself.
Also, a LOT of you recommend the Glock 17 and 19. Not to restart the caliber wars, what are your thoughts on the 22 and 23? I've read LAV's remarks on them, but I've also read that CAG is using them now, and those people don't tolerate half-assed gear.
Thanks,
Okie John
I own a 17 but I actually carry a 23 for my CCW. I love it conceals very well and its just a little more power when you might need it the most.
I like the Glocks too in both 9mm and .40 S&W. I have a shooting buddy who loves his Smith & Wesson M&P pistols. He has a regular size gun and a compact in .40 S&W.
One possible plus for the OP about the M&P - you can get one with a thumb safety, which will be more consistent with your years of experience on the 1911 and might make for more consistency between platforms if you do decide you want to switch back and forth or switch back to a 1911 later.
My suggestion:
G19 Gen3 (and RTF if you can find one) and get either a G17 Gen3. Put the light on the G17 and that is your home defense, range, and training class pistol. Get a good outside the waistband holster from one the kydex holster makers (Comp Tac, Raven Concealment Systems, Atomic Dog, NTAC, etc) for the G17 and light. Get an inside the waistband holster for the G19 for EDC. Grab an outside the waistband holster for the G19 (and light) for back up to the G17.
My offduty pistol is a G19 Gen3 that I have a Comp Tac Minotaur for IWB carry. I just got a kydex OWB holster for the G19 and TLR1. I really like that set up now that it is winter. I usually wear a a sweatshirt with a light parka, so no one sees the pistol on my side.
You do what you want but I promise you...you buy plastic and you will regret it eventually...Stay with the tried and trusted...You said it yourself...your a simple man. I relate to that and I have owned or shot just about every pistol/revolver made. I still trust a good quality 1911 to handle anything that I may deal with unless big game hunting...and watch out for the MIM is ok crap...I have had three different 1911's with that powdered junk fail included 2-Springfields, and a Kimber. :big_boss:
Also, a LOT of you recommend the Glock 17 and 19. Not to restart the caliber wars, what are your thoughts on the 22 and 23? I've read LAV's remarks on them, but I've also read that CAG is using them now, and those people don't tolerate half-assed gear.
I find 23 a handful to handle, esp. with rapid fire; I certainly prefer 45 ACP as far as recoil and flip management is concerned.
The 22 should be easier to shoot, and people say good things about Gen 4 22s in particular in regards to recoil and flip, without much, if any, negative reports that surround 9 mm Gen 4s.
I've shot MP 40 and I liked it better than Gen 3 23.
Price of ammo for 40 and 45 seems to be close enough that there won't be much incremental benefit in how much more you'll be able to practice with 40 over 45.
The fact that CAG uses G22s is a testament to its reliability and terminal ballistics of 40, but those were known facts even before then (aside from issues of WMLs and some of older 22s). CAG guys can shoot anything well. I find 40 more demanding than 9 or 45, and I personally would stay away from it. Shooting well is not easy; there is no reason to make it harder than it already is.
RogerinTPA
12-01-10, 20:42
Welcome to the M4C.
I had a 1st Gen G23 and shot it well but the grip sucked for me, as well as the recoil impulse. I switched to the M&P40 and it is by far my favorite gun, besides the M&P45. I own four M&Ps the 9,9C (daily carry with crimson trace)40 and 45. I've fired around 10K rounds on the 9 and 9C, and 6K+ each on the 40 and 45. I swear by them as far as damn near custom grip, low bore axis, pleasant recoil, very controllable during rapid fire, and support side shooting. I added the Apex sear and it was like shooting entirely different pistols.
On M4C, most either love or hate the M&P or Glock as far as platforms go, but both are held in high regard here. If I were you I'd stick with the .45, but with the mid sized M&P45, 10 round mag cap and with ambi controls to mirror your motor skills with your old 1911. Rent one and try it. If you lived in my AO, I'd let you shoot all of mine, but try before you decide. I've convert more folks to the M&P line, every time I let someone try them.
M&P45 Midsize:
https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/53543
Also check out G&RTactical (M4C online vendor). A one stop shop for most firearms. Grant will upgrade them with the Apex sear and gives great prices to M4C members. He also offers upgrades on other Apex items, as well as night sight options.
If you can, rent both a Glock and a M&P and see which you like better. I use both but prefer the M&P40. To me its grip angle is more like a 1911.
Thanks again to everyone for all the answers. To clarify, the budget I listed is for everything--live-fire research, retraining, accessories, ammo, etc.--not just the pistol itself.
Also, a LOT of you recommend the Glock 17 and 19. Not to restart the caliber wars, what are your thoughts on the 22 and 23? I've read LAV's remarks on them, but I've also read that CAG is using them now, and those people don't tolerate half-assed gear.
Thanks,
Okie John
I'm not going to bad mouth Glocks. we have a couple here at the house but if you want a .40 get a pistol designed as a .40 first, not an "upgraded" 9mm. The HK's and M&P's were .40's first, 9mm second.
If you are going to go with the 1911 then you might consider some intersting options besides the 5" govt model. It might occur to you that giving up a pound around the waist will be liberating. These have caught my eye.
For 380 Backup: Sig P238
For Ultra Compact: Springfield EMP in 9mm
"Compact": For Sig Sauer RCS or C3 in 4.25 barrel with shorter grip is very nice for carry being lighter and smaller (and reasonably priced) with good feedback. If you want to drop more coin and keep more weight then Ed Brown in the Mas Ayoob Model available only throught the end of the year seems a good bet.
IF not 1911 . . .
then get out and try out some polymer in anything that speaks german so to speak. Glock, HK, Walther, SIG, even Steyer. The biggest issue will be the the trigger system choice: Glock "Safe Action" (wonderful reset!), SIG and HK TDA/SA (tough to "master" DA to SA transition), HK LEM (nice trigger, great philosopically), SIG DAK (I dont like double reset!), Walthers Anti-Stress DA/SA on P99 (best single action trigger on a DA/SA gun IMHO--the reset is 1911 like). The adjustment from the SA of the 1911 and the fact that they are all so different from each other will present a challenge in discerning your choice. The M+P trigger I dont care for at all--break point? crisp? reset? not at all in the vocabulary of the stock triggers of those that I have tried.
kaltesherz
12-01-10, 23:26
Thanks again to everyone for all the answers. To clarify, the budget I listed is for everything--live-fire research, retraining, accessories, ammo, etc.--not just the pistol itself.
Also, a LOT of you recommend the Glock 17 and 19. Not to restart the caliber wars, what are your thoughts on the 22 and 23? I've read LAV's remarks on them, but I've also read that CAG is using them now, and those people don't tolerate half-assed gear.
Thanks,
Okie John
I say 9mm, the cartridge has come a long way with modern JHPs (Federal HST and Winchester Ranger-T) so the terminal ballistics differences between 9mm, .40, and .45 are pretty slim. With a 9mm practice is cheaper, less recoil on follow up shots, added capacity, and for the Glock, that's the caliber they were designed around. The Gen III G17 is probably the most reliable pistol ever made.
I've also heard about CAG and their G22's but can't really comment on it, but I have personally seen your SF colleagues carrying G19's in country.
If you go .40, I'd suggest the M&P platform, as they were designed around that round and hear great things about it.
Oh, and there's no one on this forum (or probably any other) that has done more terminal ballistics research than DocGKR, and last I heard even he carries a G19.
Fire_Medic
12-02-10, 09:13
I say 9mm, the cartridge has come a long way with modern JHPs (Federal HST and Winchester Ranger-T) so the terminal ballistics differences between 9mm, .40, and .45 are pretty slim. With a 9mm practice is cheaper, less recoil on follow up shots, added capacity, and for the Glock, that's the caliber they were designed around. The Gen III G17 is probably the most reliable pistol ever made.
I've also heard about CAG and their G22's but can't really comment on it, but I have personally seen your SF colleagues carrying G19's in country.
If you go .40, I'd suggest the M&P platform, as they were designed around that round and hear great things about it.
Oh, and there's no one on this forum (or probably any other) that has done more terminal ballistics research than DocGKR, and last I heard even he carries a G19.
DocGKR actually carries many different firearms depending on his current assignments but yes he does highly regard a G19 for CCW.
:D
Magic_Salad0892
12-02-10, 09:43
If I could only own one pistol it'd be a Gen 3 Glock 17.
If I was relegated to .45 then I'd say HK45. (With an honourable mention of the S&W M&P 45)
This is going to depend on a couple of personal factors.
What trigger system do you prefer?
If you want DAO look to either a P30 LEM (9mm or .40) or HK 45 LEM (.45)
If you want striker-fired, either Glock or M&P will work although I will say that if you want anything other than 9mm (.40, .357, .45) then I would go with the M&P, otherwise either platform will be great in 9mm.
If you want SAO, then 1911 is the obvious choice, however if you do this be prepared to put down atleast 2k on a good 1911, the Springfield Professional comes to mind....
The above platforms mostly what you will really see among those who shoot professionally and/or stake their lives on thier pistol, and by many who frequent this board.
My $.02
fivefivesix
12-02-10, 10:07
i vote glock 17. but then it fits better in my big hands than the 19. i use to shoot the 19 better but a lot of steel plate shoots and time at my range cured that. either way a 19 or a 17 is a good choice for the 9mm. i also own a 21 and a 21sf. but i carry the 17 all the time. 15 years has seen an improvment in all the ammo across the board.
I would recommend a HK45 or HK45 compact. It is a reliable and accurate handgun.
You mentioned you are a 1911 guy. With the HK45 you can switch the trigger system to a variant 9 (were the safety lever does not have the decock function) and set it up like a 1911. My 1911 buddies that I let shoot it come away impressed with the accuracy and its low recoil.
Many others like the M&P's, they can be set-up pretty nice as well.
It seems like you already plan to spend time at the range with the guns your are considering which is very wise. If I were you I would add the HK45 to the guns that you are going to spend some time with at the range and see what works best for you.
bova41@mac.com
12-02-10, 13:47
+1 for the HK. I have an HK45c which I have put about 1000 rounds through in a year and a half. I love it. Not a single miss-feed and accurate.
I ducked out of work early yesterday, grabbed my 1911, and went to the range to shoot a few pistols you guys have talked about on this and other threads. I rented the G17, G19, G21SF, G34, G36, M&P 45FS, M&P 9FS, and the M&P 9C. These guns were mechanically sound, but they’re rentals, so they were also dirty, poorly lubricated, and zeroed by whoever dropped them last. All had issue sights but the G19—it had Trijicons with a front blade slightly narrower than a stock sight.
Ammo was AE 115-gr. FMJ in 9mm and PMC 230-gr. FMJ in 45 ACP. Targets were B-21Es. I shot the FS pistols ten quick pairs at 20 feet and five slower (but not slow) head shots at 20 yards. I also shot pairs and head shots with the compacts, but at 20’ only. I didn’t try to master anything, I just shot these pistols side-by-side to get a feel for their differences.
Every pistol I tried was solid—surprisingly so. Everything functioned 100%. The FS guns shot like match guns, with the compacts not far behind. A modicum of training and practice plus finding each gun’s favorite load would probably make inconsequential or eliminate most differences between them. Recoil and blast were shades of gray, but nothing was obnoxious. I liked the G17, the M&P 45 FS, and the G19 the most.
This morning, I picked up a pair of gently used Gen 3 RTF2 G19s, one with night sights. I’m off to the range again right now for the check ride, and I’ll grab a couple of cases of training ammo when I go to Oregon next week to hang with some old SF buddies.
Thanks again to everyone for the help and thanks again for the professionalism. I love it when a plan comes together. Stand by for a barrage of n00b questions on mods and accessories.
And if you’re wondering how the plastic test pistols stood up to the standard set by the 1911? I have no idea—the Colt’s extractor failed on the second shot.
Okie John
davebee456
12-04-10, 18:12
I would recommend after spending and losing lots of money in trade ins and sales of used guns that did not work out for me.
9mm= Glock 26,19 or 17.
40s&w and 45acp = Hk P30, Hk USPc or Hk45c and S&W M&P's
Although I do love my Glock 21SF in 45auto so far..
Best CCW handgun to me would be= Glock 26.
Best Home Defense handgun would be= Glock 19,17 or 21Sf or Hk 45.
Best Of Both Worlds= Hk45C or Glock19.
looking back at your specifications DAO would be LEM for the Hk's
Okie John,
I don't want to come off like an anti-1911 guy, which I basically am, but the Colt extractor failure is a typical reason of why I shy away from the guns.
Nice to hear that you're putting the time downrange behind the guns to figure out what works. Some guns sound good on paper, but don't do much to help you hit paper....
Drew
Okie-Glad we were collectively of some help. I think that you'll be very pleased with your G19s.
From the get-go, you might want to switch out the serrated triggers with the smooth Glock trigger bar (i.e., the one that comes standard with the G17, G22, etc.)-it'll be more comfortable, and the only reason that Glock went with the serrated ones on the compact Glocks was to gain import points.
If your non-night sigeted one has the Glock polymer sights, I'd suggest switching them out for a set of steel ones-there are a host of excellent choices available.
If you prefer to use the slide release as a means of getting a slide at slide-lock back into battery, you might want to consider swapping the original flat one with Glock's extended slide stop (the one that's standard on the G34, G35, G37, G38, and G39)-if you like the concept, but feel that it protruded too far back horizontally (interfearing with your thumb), Larry Vickers/Tango Down has one imminently in the wind, modeled off the Smith & Wesson M&P slide release. Many are also preferential to the Larry Vickers/Tango Down extended magazine release, although I've personally never had any issues with the OEM Glock releases.
Small books have been written on the "best" conector/trigger spring configurations. I'd suggest keeping them as they are for at least the first 500 rounds, and then adjusting/swapping components once you have a working familiarity and discernable preference regarding your Glock triggerpulls.
Enjoy-and there's a host of eminently qualified Glock users here that will be happy to provide assistance and suggestions.
Best, Jon
Thanks for your comments. This is exactly the kind of help I need.
At the range this morning, I flattened the top finger groove and some of the checkering, then relieved the bottom of the trigger guard. My pistol is much more comfortable to shoot now.
I’m with you on the serrated trigger--it's got to go. Can a shooter do that, or should a Glock armorer do it? The mag release is a bit short, but I want to have the grip diameter reduced, so I'll make the call on changing it and the slide stop once that's done.
The trigger pull is typical of a Glock. I can shoot this pistol into 4” at 25 yards, but what happens at 50 yards I wouldn’t call a group. I’m not sure how much of that is trigger and how much is barrel, but I’ll follow your advice of waiting 500 rounds to alter the trigger.
What do you recommend for steel night sights?
Finally, I see that you're in Auburn. Who does good Glock work around here?
Thanks,
Okie John
kaltesherz
12-05-10, 15:18
Thanks for your comments. This is exactly the kind of help I need.
At the range this morning, I flattened the top finger groove and some of the checkering, then relieved the bottom of the trigger guard. My pistol is much more comfortable to shoot now.
I’m with you on the serrated trigger--it's got to go. Can a shooter do that, or should a Glock armorer do it? The mag release is a bit short, but I want to have the grip diameter reduced, so I'll make the call on changing it and the slide stop once that's done.
The trigger pull is typical of a Glock. I can shoot this pistol into 4” at 25 yards, but what happens at 50 yards I wouldn’t call a group. I’m not sure how much of that is trigger and how much is barrel, but I’ll follow your advice of waiting 500 rounds to alter the trigger.
What do you recommend for steel night sights?
Finally, I see that you're in Auburn. Who does good Glock work around here?
Thanks,
Okie John
You can do all of your Glock mods yourself easily, with the exception of the sights, and you can even do that if you feel confident enough. Look on youtube and there's a HUGE amount of videos showing how to detail strip it, replace the trigger, mag release, etc etc.
Fire_Medic
12-05-10, 16:49
Thanks for your comments. This is exactly the kind of help I need.
At the range this morning, I flattened the top finger groove and some of the checkering, then relieved the bottom of the trigger guard. My pistol is much more comfortable to shoot now.
I’m with you on the serrated trigger--it's got to go. Can a shooter do that, or should a Glock armorer do it? The mag release is a bit short, but I want to have the grip diameter reduced, so I'll make the call on changing it and the slide stop once that's done.
The trigger pull is typical of a Glock. I can shoot this pistol into 4” at 25 yards, but what happens at 50 yards I wouldn’t call a group. I’m not sure how much of that is trigger and how much is barrel, but I’ll follow your advice of waiting 500 rounds to alter the trigger.
What do you recommend for steel night sights?
Finally, I see that you're in Auburn. Who does good Glock work around here?
Thanks,
Okie John
If you can't find someone cheap enough to swap your sights when you're ready just drop me a PM I will do it free of charge you just have to pay to ship to me and back to you. Will be a same day turnaround.
Congrats on your G19.
The first finger groove is also what bothers me on that gun and jams me up under the trigger guard. Changing that makes the pistol feel completely different.
What do you recommend for steel night sights?
Every single manufafturer has sights for Glocks, and you'll find devout followers for each and every option. Warren's, Ameriglo - various choices there like Bowie's, Hackathorns at al, 10-8 sights etc. etc.
I personally prefer Heinie straight 8 night sights with 0.125 wide front post and 0.140 wide rear. The only limitation of my set is suboptimal shape for one-handed manipulations, but I think they now have Ledge version that addresses that.
The bigger thing with aftermarket sights is to make sure of your G19s POA/POI. Many folks find stock sights shooting high. I've spent a good deal of time and my carry ammo with slow precise shooting at various distances to figure out the required height of my front sight.
I'm a fan of both Warren,10-8, and Heinie.
BUT, I'd hate to ignore XS Sights as well. On a Glock I prefer Big Dots and as of late am preferring the Express over the 24/7.
Drew
Thanks for your comments. This is exactly the kind of help I need.
At the range this morning, I flattened the top finger groove and some of the checkering, then relieved the bottom of the trigger guard. My pistol is much more comfortable to shoot now.
I’m with you on the serrated trigger--it's got to go. Can a shooter do that, or should a Glock armorer do it? The mag release is a bit short, but I want to have the grip diameter reduced, so I'll make the call on changing it and the slide stop once that's done.
The trigger pull is typical of a Glock. I can shoot this pistol into 4” at 25 yards, but what happens at 50 yards I wouldn’t call a group. I’m not sure how much of that is trigger and how much is barrel, but I’ll follow your advice of waiting 500 rounds to alter the trigger.
What do you recommend for steel night sights?
Finally, I see that you're in Auburn. Who does good Glock work around here?
Thanks,
Okie John
Okie-In answer to your questions, here are a couple of answers. First, swapping out the triggerbar is easy. The best guide (aside from my Glock Armorers Manual) that I've found is the PTOOMA Complete Glock Reference Guide, which walks you through the field stripping and then detailed disassembly/reassembly of both slide and receiver in easy to follow, well illustrated steps-it's available from Lone Wolf Distributers, among others.
The smooth trigger triggerbar that you want is lock Part number SP 00357.
As mentioned, there is a vast selection of excellent steel sights. I personally have successfully used Glock, Trijicon and Warren sights.
A competant Glock Armorer in our area is Jay Ward, at Bear Arms in Kent. They'll install any sights you order from them for free-I believe that they order from Brownells, so that's a good guide to start from, but check with him.
Best, Jon
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