View Full Version : Shooting "Out" A Barrel While Shooting?
What is the possibility if any, of shooting out a chrome lined barrel while shooting it? I guess how many rounds could you shoot at one time before the barrel is ruined, or is that not realistically possible?
Thx
Robb Jensen
11-30-10, 21:14
What is the possibility if any, of shooting out a chrome lined barrel while shooting it? I guess how many rounds could you shoot at one time before the barrel is ruined, or is that not realistically possible?
Thx
It's a gradual thing over time. 1 month it's shooting 1 or so MOA and many months later it's at 3 MOA and it gets worse overtime.
GermanSynergy
11-30-10, 22:01
All depends on the volume of shooting.
For most people, they'll never really wear out an AR barrel.
Quite another story if you train/shoot alot or are lucky enough to have a legally registered M16 lower and copious amounts of ammunition.
Thats kind of what I'm trying to get at. Do you think a barrel would be ruined if you shot lets say 2k rounds in an hour or less full auto. Or would it take more than that?
63 magazines x 30 rounds each = 1890 rounds
63 magazines x $15 each = $ 945
1890 rounds @ $0.33 each = $630 plus tax.
Add 12 bucks for a can of Break Free.
Add $300 for a new barrel.
So it's going to cost $1900 bucks for that one hour. It better be hellish fun.
GermanSynergy
11-30-10, 22:29
In an AR type platform, firing 2,000 rds in an hour you'd almost certainly have to worry about the weapon cooking off due to the heat, and it wouldn't be doing your barrel any favors.
Back in 2004 I experienced a cook off in an M4 after firing about 14 mags in a row on 3 rd burst. Not a fun experience and very dangerous.
Cook-off, smook-off. That was a ND.:D
In an AR type platform, firing 2,000 rds in an hour you'd almost certainly have to worry about the weapon cooking off due to the heat, and it wouldn't be doing your barrel any favors.
Back in 2004 I experienced a cook off in an M4 after firing about 14 mags in a row on 3 rd burst. Not a fun experience and very dangerous.
When you did that, was it in a battle? I'm tring to figure if in a realistic situation if it would happen. I would be in semi auto though. Your saying 420 rounds back to back in three round burst may have been bad, but do you think it ruined you barrel? Or do you think if it cooled down it would be gtg?
Militant83
12-01-10, 05:52
I would say after it cooled down it would be gtg. Did it put some wear on the barrel hell yeah. But say it was a military issued rifle which is a hammer forged barrel. I believe they have a barrel life of close to 30,000 rnds down the tube. But as said in a previous post your accuracy slowly begins to decrease over time. And the more its fired the quicker that accuracy decreases.
From what I've seen with M16A1s and a couple M4 is that the gas port starts to eroad and the gun starts to FTE more when heats dumped in it. I have seen pretty shot out barrels that still shoot up till the rifle gets hot.
I have never had a change to shoot M16A2 that much to see if its any different but I would guess not.
PatrolRifleGroup
12-01-10, 06:44
Thats kind of what I'm trying to get at. Do you think a barrel would be ruined if you shot lets say 2k rounds in an hour or less full auto. Or would it take more than that?
I'm saying that if you found yourself in a situation, where you needed to shoot 2K rounds in an hour, the last thing you'll be worried about is wearing out your barrel. I'm also guessing that you would have plenty of barrels lying on the ground to choose from, should you find yourself (luckily) worrying about your barrel.
If found this after a quick google. BTW, I used an M16A2 back in the day and the sustained rate of fire was 12 - 15 rds per minute.
Tests conducted by both the Army and by Colt indicate that "exceeding the sustained rate of fire of 15 rounds per minute will result in the weapon 'cooking off' rounds after approximately 170 rounds have been fired." If the maximum rate of fire of 90 rounds per minute "is maintained for about 540 rounds, the barrel softens and gas starts to blow by the bullet, changing the sound and size of the muzzle blast." If the operator continues to fire the weapon, the barrel will begin to droop, and finally, at about 596 rounds, the barrel will burst.
A bit off topic and trying to not be a smart ass but....... You can't miss fast enough to win. 1K rds in an hour (assuming you had someone loading your mags) is about 16 rds a minute.
Normal service life for a barrel is around 10,000 rounds. I switch my match barrels somewhere between 4,000 and 6,000 rounds when they stop shooting decent groups, but they are still safe to shoot. If you do a lot of mag dumps, I imagine wear will be accelerated.
arizonaranchman
12-01-10, 08:57
Normal service life for a barrel is around 10,000 rounds. I switch my match barrels somewhere between 4,000 and 6,000 rounds when they stop shooting decent groups, but they are still safe to shoot. If you do a lot of mag dumps, I imagine wear will be accelerated.
And this is a shooter trying to get 1" or less as a standard of performance.
For my needs and typical usage and probably most of us here, hitting an 8" pie plate sized target (similar to a center mass hit requirement) each and every shot is all i ask 99% of the time. So a barrel might give me 30k easily with that standard.
I only shoot off the bench to get a sight zero'd in, otherwise you'll rarely see me at a bench. It's training in real-life type distances and conditions, so a barrel will last me a LONG time.
GermanSynergy
12-01-10, 11:41
Not in battle, during a day of SRT training. We had lots of M855 to burn off, and the LT told us to expend it all before we departed the range. This was a typical .mil rack grade M4, and got shot alot, so I'm not are about the condition of the barrel. I do know we shot alot that day.
In reality, I'd keep the M4's on semi and use crew served if FA fire was called for.
When you did that, was it in a battle? I'm tring to figure if in a realistic situation if it would happen. I would be in semi auto though. Your saying 420 rounds back to back in three round burst may have been bad, but do you think it ruined you barrel? Or do you think if it cooled down it would be gtg?
Great, all the info I was looking for has pretty much been answered. It seems like it would not be too likely to shoot "too much" in one time to ruin you barrel in a shtf situation. And if you are you will most likely be dead before that time anyway.....Thank you for the input.....
m1a_scoutguy
12-01-10, 23:58
I'm sure most guys have seen this,,but these guys burnt out there BBL in a little over 800 rds,,,,,,:eek:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CRXH-muly0
Call me a wuss, but if it's too hot to touch, it's too hot...especially with a gloved hand.
Each time you heat a barrel, especially past the hottest it's ever been, the structure of the barrel changes.
Sure, the change/damage may be slight but it's cumulative and unnecessary.
Then again, I'm not into "mag dumps" as for me any way, they serve no perpose.
Call me a wuss, but if it's too hot to touch, it's too hot...especially with a gloved hand.
Each time you heat a barrel, especially past the hottest it's ever been, the structure of the barrel changes.
Sure, the change/damage may be slight but it's cumulative and unnecessary.
Then again, I'm not into "mag dumps" as for me any way, they serve no perpose.
If you shoot through a full magazine or two in an AR in a rapid shooting string it will burn you if you touch the barrel.
I wish I was exaggerating. But that's been my experience.
I think we shot three or four through my AR in the space of about 2 minutes, I wanted to get through all the magazines I had at the range, to test the followers, and we had a bunch of pistol/magazines, etc., so I shot them back to back, knowing the AR would heat up, but the gun range was going to close so I wanted to let the gun cool down as much as possible, but also test the magazines since I was there.
It was hot hot hot, I let it sit out for 10-15 minutes, cased it up, drove about 15 minutes home, uncased it, the barrel was still too hot to the touch (ETA: let me correct that, it was hot enough that when I finished shooting I didn't even need to touch the barrel, I could feel the heat radiating off of it, when I got it home, I think I could touch it with the back of my hand but it was still uncomfortably hot, I remember being somewhat concerned I was going to catch the case on fire), set it out on the counter and let it cool, it was still slightly warm about 10-15 minutes later.
But some blog did heat measurements, the Barrel and FSB after about 90-120 rounds will hit about 400 degrees, IIRC.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=647961&postcount=123
I can't recall where I've read that data, but this is the best I could do, after 80 rounds the M4 Handguards reached 350 degrees.
Which would support my statement of the barrel getting around/above those temperatures if it's radiating enough heat to get hand guards that hot. (Also considering we're talking 90-120 shots versus just 80).
Magic_Salad0892
12-02-10, 01:24
But say it was a military issued rifle which is a hammer forged barrel.
Not to be a dick, but Colt barrels are button rifled.
ETA: Durr moment - FNH M16 barrels are CHF.
Alpha Sierra
12-02-10, 03:57
. But say it was a military issued rifle which is a hammer forged barrel.
How is that better?
Magic_Salad0892
12-02-10, 05:54
How is that better?
How is it better overall? Or how is it better for sustained fire?
Thanks for the link to the heat data. This will help me justify using grease on the bolt and carrier.
For what it is worth I have a Bushmaster that is about 12 years old and has about 10,000 rounds blasted with much hard use and rapid fire, I still shoots about 2-3" at 100m.
Thats kind of what I'm trying to get at. Do you think a barrel would be ruined if you shot lets say 2k rounds in an hour or less full auto. Or would it take more than that?
Here is two videos of Colt Defense Testing (http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/tag/colt/) m4 and socom barrel in this article. I love the F-bomb in the video that NY times left in:laugh:.
Not to be a dick, but Colt barrels are button rifled.
ETA: Durr moment - FNH M16 barrels are CHF.
Are all FN bbls CHF? Have they always been?
Barrels are like tires- how long they last depends on how you treat them.
One trick to help rifle barrels cool quicker is to open the bolt and tilt the weapon or put it vertical to let air flow through easier and carry away the heat between strings
I find it funny that ALL these torture tests are done with a DI system! Why no piston systems if they are soooo much better?:rolleyes: Just asking!:sarcastic: Come on you piston guys let see you melt one down!! let see you do a 1000 rounds!
Magic_Salad0892
12-03-10, 06:21
Are all FN bbls CHF? Have they always been?
Yes, and yes.
I have a noveske mid length with abt 16,000 on it. It is still more capable than I am.
I have seen a barrel get shot out, Littlelebowskis 5.45 upper (unless he has shown the barrel hasnt been shot out). The rds went from being accurate to tumbling and keyholing instantly.
PJ
From a pure round count perspective, not a "let's do a bunch of mag dumps" perspective . . . Pat Rogers has a BCM with over 39k rounds through it when last I saw him post about it. Probably at least into the mid 40s by now.
No complaints about that barrel being shot out.
From a pure round count perspective, not a "let's do a bunch of mag dumps" perspective . . . Pat Rogers has a BCM with over 39k rounds through it when last I saw him post about it. Probably at least into the mid 40s by now.
No complaints about that barrel being shot out.
Is it a standard or a CHF barrel?
It's the STD barrel, not the BFH barrel. So says an article from USMC03, which I have no cause to doubt.
Here is two videos of Colt Defense Testing (http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/tag/colt/) m4 and socom barrel in this article. I love the F-bomb in the video that NY times left in:laugh:.
I have actually seen this video. While it leads you to believe that the rifle is no longer functional, do you think the barrel would ok once it cooled down?
As someone pointed out earlier, I am looking for sub MOA accuracy when evaluating a barrel on one of my match rifles. A battle rifle is another story altogether. As long as the headspace is within safe limits and a carbine can shoot sub 4 MOA groups, I would not change out the barrel on a reliable battle rifle. I know of one individual who changed his barrel out after roughly 22,000 rounds and the accuracy turned to mud, but I did not have a chance to check the headspace before he tossed the barrel in the junk pile. The M4 video definitely shows what sustained automatic weapon fire can do to a barrel in a short period of time.
I have actually seen this video. While it leads you to believe that the rifle is no longer functional, do you think the barrel would ok once it cooled down?
From the article it looks like the M4 barrel in the first video drooped and ruptured but I think the socom barrel would be fine with a new gas tube as they continued to shoot it single shot for a little bit.
I once put 14 mags thru a M4A1 back to back to back as a trunk monkey in Iraq when the PKM we had shit the bed.
Gun what hotter than hell, and the Larue rail on it melted some of the ladder panels I had on it.
However the gun shot well into 1" with Mk262 when we had a range day later.
We've put 5k on a gun in an afternoon at KAC, suppressed shooting 180rd heat cycles (full auto dumps then cool with a water mister after the 180rds) the barrel shot within 3" at 100 at the end of the day with M855. However by 15k the next day accuracy was more of a pattern than group.
I have had a babied shooting team (Diemaco CHF barrel) gun that was only shot semi-auto that was still very accurate to 20k rds on it when it gauged out on headspace.
A lot depends on firing schedule and cleaning (I think honestly the beater endurance gun I talked about above would shoot a little better if we cleaned the copper out - the bbl was full of copper that got melted to the got bbl.) as well as the quality of the bbl you started with.
Love the title.. Yet to see a barrel shot out w/o shooting...
Don't believe the FN, m16, barrels hammer forged.
A barrel will show it's shot out at distance, 300m or so, as it fails to stabilize the projectiles at distance. 50m courses like Pat Rogers won't show degradation.
A barrel is not the same after being excessively heated... And can fail later due to damage to the crystaline structure of the metal. Which is why SOCOM now has the stupid heavy profile on their m4a1's.
...A lot depends on firing schedule and cleaning (I think honestly the beater endurance gun I talked about above would shoot a little better if we cleaned the copper out - the bbl was full of copper that got melted to the got bbl.) as well as the quality of the bbl you started with.
Many years ago, I read in an article dealing with rifles with high round counts, that most barrels thought to be "shot out" actually just needed to be properly and thoroughly cleaned
Nobody_Special
12-07-10, 12:57
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNpw26Qt6Bg
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