View Full Version : Downsides to a Commander length 1911?
I'm thinking about a Commander length 1911 (4.25"), possibly an Ed Brown. In the past, I've only owned one 1911 an original full size Kimber Royal. What are the major downsides when compared to a Gov't length 5"? I'd like a 1911 that I can conceal carry if I want to.
I have several Gov't Models and Commanders. When properly built, both are utterly reliable. I've only run into issues when dealing with sub-4" guns. Personally, I won't own a 1911 shorter than 4.25".
My current carry pistol is a 10mm Dan Wesson bobtail commander. However, I don't find much difference in comfort between the Gov't models and Commanders. The grip size is the same and I don't notice the extra 3/4" of slide. The bobtail modification does help with printing and can be done to any 1911 with a full size frame.
http://texbiker.com/pics/dw1.jpg
http://texbiker.com/pics/dw7.jpg
funny you posted that. A Bobtail Commander is actually hign on my list of possibilities. They are just damn expensive. I don't know much about the Dan Wesson pistols. How are they?
Also, i figured that the shorter length would be fairly noticeable when carrying concealed. Not so?
For the most part any advantages or disadvantages of the commander are mostly a matter of perception for users:
Its 3/4 of an inch shorter - this MIGHT be a comfort aid to you when in a seated position for a long periods of time, but it doesnt make the gun conceal better per se.
Some believe shorter length slides to clear holsters faster on the draw stroke.
Some people believe shorter, lighter slides have less percieved recoil.
On the other side, with the Government you get a longer sight radius, more velocity, and more holster options. That same short slide that supposedly clears holsters fast and recoils less does definitely do one thing, it cycles faster. This can in some cases make the gun more finicky depending on recoil and magazine spring wear and the type of loads used.
Either way, as far as Im concerned a Commander length gun does nothing for me. It offers me no advantages over a full size 1911.
funny you posted that. A Bobtail Commander is actually hign on my list of possibilities. They are just damn expensive. I don't know much about the Dan Wesson pistols. How are they?
I have an Ed Brown Kobra Carry and the Dan Wesson exhibits superior fit/finish at nearly half the price. I've been very impressed with this pistol. I've got over 3k rounds down the pipe with zero FTF/FTE failures. I've had the slide fail to lock back on an empty mag twice, but I'm pretty sure that was an issue with my reloads, not the pistol or mags. Here is a review I posted a few weeks ago:
Fit and finish are on par with with several of my custom guns that cost 2x+ as much. All quality parts...no MIM internals. Series 70. It came with two Metalform mags and I purchased 6 more Metalforms to go with the pistol. Trigger pull was very crisp and broke at 4.75# according to my gauge. Barrel bushing is fitted very tight and requires a wrench to remove, which is how I prefer it. The included Trijicon night sights are green/green. This is my third bobtailed 1911 and I love the way it fits in my hand. It's a very handsome 1911, IMO.
I brought it home, field stripped it, cleaned/lubed it and took it to the range. I ran 200rds of various DoubleTap loads ranging from 155gr - 210gr with no failures. It especially liked the 165gr Gold Dots and that is my preferred SD load for this pistol.
Since then, I've put 2450 more rounds down the pipe, including 550rds of DT 165gr Gold Dots, 1300rds of my 180gr reloads (1175 fps) and 600rds of CCI Blazer 200gr FMJ. I have experienced zero failures to feed or eject, although I did have the slide fail to lock back on an empty mag once yesterday while shooting my reloads. I also fired 150 rounds this afternoon and again experienced one failure to lock back. Both failures happened with my reloads and the same mag, but not every time I used it. I'll keep an eye on this mag and see if the failures continue. It could be the mag or it could be my reloads. So far, I've only used Metalform mags in this pistol and I'm quite happy with them.
I mainly shoot steel with my SD pistols, so I don't worry too much about group sizes. As long as I keep all my rounds on the 4" plate at 15yds, I'm satisfied. I know that's not much of a benchmark, but it's good enough for my needs.
Overall, I'm very impressed with this "little" gun. I didn't expect this level of reliability from a factory built 1911 fitted as tightly as this CBOB. I was fully prepared for a lengthy "break-in" period and wouldn't have complained if I had a few failures out of the box. I guess I got lucky this time. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend this pistol to anyone looking for a slim, compact 10mm handgun. I have several other 10mm pistols from Glock, Colt and CZ, but this one is steadily moving up my list of favorites.
I carry the pistol in an Alessi CQC/S OWB holster and a Sparks Watch Six IWB holster. I'm still trying to decide whether I like the wood grips or Alumagrips. I go back and forth and they both feel great. The wood looks more elegant and the Alumagrips look more industrial, IMO.
Also, i figured that the shorter length would be fairly noticeable when carrying concealed. Not so?
I don't notice any difference at all. I'm not a quick draw artist by any means, so the difference in presentation speed from a holster isn't an issue for me. As I stated above, the bobtail modification makes a bigger difference in my comfort since it elminates the grip corner that can jab me on occasion. Just for reference, I'm 6'5" tall and 220lbs, so I can conceal pretty much any handgun without much problem.
Sidewinder6
08-09-07, 13:00
I am an old 45 nut. Carried a Colt Govt, a Commander, and a Detonics at different times as a cop. For me, I usually carried the smaller ones for comfort when working, but would bring the longer Govt to the range to keep the grunge off it. That extra length between the sights helped my marksmanship. This was with the stock sights on all three.
......I am an old 45 nut. Carried a Colt Govt, a Commander, and a Detonics at different times as a cop. For me, I usually carried the smaller ones for comfort when working, but would bring the longer Govt to the range to keep the grunge off it. That extra length between the sights helped my marksmanship. This was with the stock sights on all three........
You are one of the few people that even heard of Detonics, that's the only 45 I have left, it's been a great gun and am thinking about having it refinished.
Sadly enough I used to own 2 beautiful Colts, a satin Combat Commander, and a nickel Government Model.........like a fool I traded them both for a used 77 Kawasaki Z1 900 ( which I still have but it sure ain't worth what the Colts are today!)
Looking through some stuff the other day I came across the original wood grips with gold emblem in mint condition from one of them, I think from around 1979. Didn't even know I still had em.
Sorry to get off topic there, when I had all 3 I always chose the smaller 45 to carry and was the one I wouldn't part with because of the carry option.
Sidewinder6
08-09-07, 21:06
......I am an old 45 nut. Carried a Colt Govt, a Commander, and a Detonics at different times as a cop. For me, I usually carried the smaller ones for comfort when working, but would bring the longer Govt to the range to keep the grunge off it. That extra length between the sights helped my marksmanship. This was with the stock sights on all three........
You are one of the few people that even heard of Detonics, that's the only 45 I have left, it's been a great gun and am thinking about having it refinished.
Sadly enough I used to own 2 beautiful Colts, a satin Combat Commander, and a nickel Government Model.........like a fool I traded them both for a used 77 Kawasaki Z1 900 ( which I still have but it sure ain't worth what the Colts are today!)
Looking through some stuff the other day I came across the original wood grips with gold emblem in mint condition from one of them, I think from around 1979. Didn't even know I still had em.
Wow! That makes me feel OLD. I remember the wood. Your time frame is along mine. I started in '73 and was off wheel guns by about '75.
Actually, I hear Detonics was comming back again but I havent looked at the new ones. I think I have a perminent bruise from the years I carried it. It was a good weapon and I never had a problem with it. I traded it in for a NEW HK P7 PSP. The original version!
I kept my Govt in my collection which I cant part with. In part because a projectile from it ended up on my retirement plaque. Ill stop there.
mtdawg169, I have been carrying concealed and studying the 1911 for many yrs. My take on what makes a 1911 easier to conceal is the grip length not the slide/barrel length. The grip length and the weight are both important to me when choosing a pistol for extended carry. 1911s are thin and flat making them a good choice for a heavy duty carry gun. The other important factor would of course be reliability.
My current choice is a SA Compact Lightweight. It is an officer length alloy frame with a 4 inch ramped barrel and Novak night sights. After changing most of the internal parts and cleaning up the feed ramp and adjacent frame area it is totally reliable with Gold Dot 230 and I feel very comfortable carrying it.
If you want to carry a full size frame the new 5 inch guns with alloy frames might be a good choice for you. The old stand by Colt lightweight Commander can be made very reliable if you decide to go that way.
Have fun choosing and learning. ;) Billy
I was never big on Commander sized guns until the DW CBOB.
I love it, it's the only non-5" 1911 I'll own.
RocketFuel
08-22-07, 20:53
......My current carry pistol is a 10mm Dan Wesson bobtail commander.
Damn, that is a good looking gun!!! Great photography.
It just never ceases to amaze me what a difference good presentation makes.
Excuse the drool.:D
toddackerman
09-10-07, 11:23
To address your post topic question...
There are no downsides IMHO to a Commander length .45ACP, and I have owned 6 Govt. Models, and 3 Commanders (all modified) in my time. It's really personal preference as far as I can see after 100,000 rounds or so...and yes I am getting old!
Just like any 1911, you need to have the proper spring combination for the load you are using along with all of the essential modifications like better sights, better trigger etc. The one thing I have found over the years that MAY BE the most critical (along with good mags) is extractor tuning. I have seen more failures to feed than I can count because of an improperly tuned extractor.
Good luck with your decision!
Tack
I really didn't find appreciable difference between a Commander and Gov't model for CCW. The grip is the hard part to conceal so I went with a CCO. If you're thinking of a Commander it should be a LW model since you won't gain much (read: anything) just going with a 3/4" shorter barrel. Bobtailing ain't a bad idea on the fullsize framed guns.
For CCW I'd rank them as follows:
1. CCO
2. LW Commander
3. Govt' Model
4. Commander
Officer ACP's and Defenders don't get ranked. JMHO, YMMV. If I had my way I'd have a LW Gov't Model, possibly with a bobtail...
The 1911 was designed as a steel frame, single stack, 5" barrel .45 ACP pistol; deviations from the orginal specification can increase the potential for problems--especially in high round count, hard use pistols. I have seen many good functioning Commanders, but I've also seen quite a few that have issues as a result of the faster slide velocity and less tolerance for worn springs.
toddackerman
09-11-07, 11:26
The 1911 was designed as a steel frame, single stack, 5" barrel .45 ACP pistol; deviations from the orginal specification can increase the potential for problems--especially in high round count, hard use pistols. I have seen many good functioning Commanders, but I've also seen quite a few that have issues as a result of the faster slide velocity and less tolerance for worn springs.
Couldn't agree more!
Main Spring, Recoil Spring, Firing Pin Spring all need to be properly maintained to handle the faster cycling.
Well, I decided on a Bobtailed Commander from Nighthawk (Talon II). I found one that was very lightly used (200 rounds) for a good price. I've put about 300 rounds through it and it shoots great. Only problem I had was 2 failures of the slide locking back. Not sure if that was mag related or operator error. I had my thumb resting on the slide stop the 2nd time it happened.
I have noticed that ejection is more erratic than with a 5". I'm getting marks on the slide in front of the ejection port from the brass hitting it. wierd.:confused:
toddackerman
09-12-07, 11:21
Well, I decided on a Bobtailed Commander from Nighthawk (Talon II). I found one that was very lightly used (200 rounds) for a good price. I've put about 300 rounds through it and it shoots great. Only problem I had was 2 failures of the slide locking back. Not sure if that was mag related or operator error. I had my thumb resting on the slide stop the 2nd time it happened.
I have noticed that ejection is more erratic than with a 5". I'm getting marks on the slide in front of the ejection port from the brass hitting it. wierd.:confused:
Make sure the springs are strong in your mags, and that the slide stop moves freely up and down by taking the recoil spring out, put the barrel, busing and slide stop back in and move the slide stop up and down. It should move freely. If it does, it's a Mag related (probably weak spring or bad follower) issue. If not, try to ID where the slide stop might be it's rubbing and stone that area until smooth. Hopefully it's not the slide stop pin because I hate to advise anyone to modify part of the "Battery Lock Up" operation. The pin could break if weakend too much by metal removal. I had to modify 2 slide stops lately so that they didn't bind in my Commander. The tolerance in the groove where the slide stop sits inside the top of the slide was too tight.
Very unusual for brass to be hitting the slide "In Front" of the ejection port. I would think it has something to do with the angle on the Extractor claw needing a little tuning (resetting the angle to direct the brass in a different direction). If you're gettin 100% ejection and feeding, the extractor tension is probably correct. But the quandry is...."How on earth does the front of the ejection port get in front of a piece of brass that is coming out?" I have occaisionally seen this towards the rear of the ejection port.
With that in mind, here is my stab at it.
I think that the recoil pf the pistol is such (in your hands) that it is actually moving back so far upon ignition, the slide is opening and closing so fast that the spent piece of brass is hitting the slide in front of the ejection port because somehow the gun got in front of the spent brass. But even then, I am really stretching here. I've never seen this on mine or anyone elses 1911 after firing and seeing >100,000 rounds fired in practice and IPSC.
Question...where on the slide exactly is it hitting? Top? Side? Can you post a picture? Does it really matter to you?
You might try the 1911.com forum and ask some of their gunsmiths who visit there.
Good luck!
Tack
Thanks Tack, I think the slide lock issue was most likely my fault. I'm not calling it a problem until I get more range time with some new mags.
The ejection issue is not something I am too concerned about at this point. Until I experience a stoppage, I'm not sure I have a real problem. I did think it was unusual to have marks forward of the ejection port though. At work now and unable to post pics, but here's my stab at an explanation of location. The marks or "dings" are just forward of the ejection port (less than 1/8") on the rounded top edge of the slide (right side if you're gripping the gun). Basically opposite of the flare on the port. As you look at the port, all of the finish is also worn off of the front, inside edge. This would be the front machined edge of the port. It starts at about 1:00 and is worn off all the way down to the horizontal portion of the ejection port. Very unusual. I would expect wear on the back of the port and there is some present from normal use.
Either way, as far as Im concerned a Commander length gun does nothing for me. It offers me no advantages over a full size 1911.
Roger that. The commander is alright, but you might as well get the man's version.
I really cringe when I see the ads for the micro .45 acps from Para and the like. People buy those things thinking they're getting the full power of the .45 in a pocket sized pistol.... but the velocity loss on those things is huge.
toddackerman
09-12-07, 17:06
Roger that. The commander is alright, but you might as well get the man's version.
I really cringe when I see the ads for the micro .45 acps from Para and the like. People buy those things thinking they're getting the full power of the .45 in a pocket sized pistol.... but the velocity loss on those things is huge.
Careful...it might not be very long, but it's as big around as a "Coffee Can"! :)
Seriously though...
I don't care for the "Micro 1911's" either. But I classify those as under 4.5" barrels, and the reliability that I've seen out of "Non- Colt Combat Commanders" makes me shutter. Especially if someone's life is depending on it. But I've never owned a short 1911 other than Colt's, so I might be talking out my pie hole! Please no flames!
As stated earlier, I've had several Gov't Models, and 3 Commanders, and they have all functioned flawlessly with the right modifications, right magazines, and right ammo, and the right spring combination. I have over 100,000 rounds through the "Pipe" of 1911's, and this experience is what I base my comments, and opinions on.
But I say that about all out of the box full size 1911's as well! Including Colt! Modifications I believe are critical would include, relieved ejection ports, Commander Ejector, ramp and throat job (boy have I seen a lot of those FUBAR'd), a good trigger, good sights, and you're pretty much GTG. Checkering is nice, as well as beveled Mag. wells, but they're not "Critical" to 100% reliability!
My current Combat Commander is something that I would stake not only my life, but my families life (which is more imprtant to me) on. It has an upgraded trigger, Novak sights, a beveled mag well I did myself, a high power recoil spring, a high power firing pin spring, and that's pretty much it. I use Wilson 7 round mags., and have since 1979. 100% reliable!
IMHO...It's really a matter of personal preference, the proper gun set-up, and 100% reliability. I smile when I remember Jeff Cooper saying that "999 times out of 1,000 is good enough for any machine". But that was before some of the excellent work that SOME pistolsmiths have performed over the last 3 decades on the 1911. I've seen tons of "Full Size" 1911's including Colt that are far from reliabale, and it's not the barrel size that is the determining factor. And, I have seen and owned pistols that are 100% reliable with the proper tuning.
I remeber having a full size 1911 customized by Don Fisher at "Fisher Custom Forearms" here in Colorado that had ~9,000 rounds on it without 1 malfunction. Like many of us...I sold it. Arghhhhh! BTW, Don doesn't build guns anymore which is a shame. He built guns for the 1979 IPSC World Champ, Ross Seyfried as well. Ross would also shoot Pachmyers.
For me, the little bit of reduced length on a Commander is more comfortable for me in my Spark's Summer Special IWB holster. It doesn't dig into my butt as much as Full Size. Yes...it's minimal, but to me, noticeable.
I'm done. I don't have anything of value to add, unless someone has a specific question regarding my post. Thanks for reading!!!
Take care, and stay safe!
Tack
Tack,
Thanks for sharing your experiences, Commander related and otherwise. I appreciate your very valid observations. I made my choice for reasons very similar to what you have pointed out. I felt the Commander (4.25") would be a little more comfortable for CCW, (the Bobtail helped that too), velocity would still be reasonable and reliability could be good, if the pistol was built right. A Commander is not "micro" by any stretch.
Any ideas on the ejection issue I described earlier?
toddackerman
09-12-07, 23:41
Tack,
Thanks for sharing your experiences, Commander related and otherwise. I appreciate your very valid observations. I made my choice for reasons very similar to what you have pointed out. I felt the Commander (4.25") would be a little more comfortable for CCW, (the Bobtail helped that too), velocity would still be reasonable and reliability could be good, if the pistol was built right. A Commander is not "micro" by any stretch.
Any ideas on the ejection issue I described earlier?
Nome other than what I have already taken a stab at. I still can't understand how brass could make a mark in frnont of the ejection port. Behind it, yes.
Sorry, maybe someone with more experience will chime in on this one.
Maybe make a new post asking just this question to attrack more responses.
Tack
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.