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:confused:
Couldn't figure out a good search criteria to pull up what might be already out there.
I am considering getting a semiautomatic to replace my Colt Trooper Mk3 for general boonie carry and home defense. My sons will probably come to blows over who gets the Mk3 when I die, so I'm probably going to get rid of it to finance the new pistol.
It will be a .45acp. Don't try to talk me into a .40 or 9mm.
I had a Remington Rand surplus 1911 many years ago (1967-70?) and liked it. Sold it (kick in rear end) for a big profit (cost $45 and got $90).
I'm thinking about a Colt 91 full size or a Glock 21. I have small hands so the Glock might not work. Waiting for the BX to get theirs in to try one out.
Any problems with the Colt? How about a Glock 21 without the ambi safety.
I like the cocked and locked carry option for the 1911.
Who makes a decent .22 conversion kit for the 1911? I think there is a thread on this but can't find it.
Thanks,
Hals1
Never mind. This turned into an HK discussion.
If you've got small hands, the Glock 21 will feel like holding a brick. I'd suggest looking into the S&W M&P, or HK 45. Both have optional manual safeties, and are proven designs.
Spurholder
12-02-10, 13:56
^Respectfully disagree. A guy that works for me is the typical "shorter" guy - 5'-7", 130 pounds soaking wet with typical "smaller guy" hands. He carries and comfortably shoots a Glock 21 with no issues.
All three guns that Entropy recommended would work. My choice would be a Glock 21SF (it has a slightly slimmer frame and grip than the regular model) over the HK45. The M&P...hmmm, for me it would be a coin toss.
Glocks do not have ambi safeties. If you mean an Ambi mag release than yes they can come with or without on the 21SF. I wear small gloves and the 21SF fits fine in my hands. The Glock 21 has the better mag capacity over the HK45 but you can get the detent plate so you can run the HK45 like a 1911 too....The HK45 has the better grip and controls as well...
Tactical Solutions makes a nice kit for the 1911.
If you've got small hands, the Glock 21 will feel like holding a brick. I'd suggest looking into the S&W M&P, or HK 45. Both have optional manual safeties, and are proven designs.
I've been cruising the threads on the M&P45 today. It's been added to the ones to check out.
Oops, I can't find a .22 conversion kit for the M&P. That's a big minus
Thanks entropy
HK45 and 45c, and the M&P45 would be what i'd look at.
HK45 and 45c, and the M&P45 would be what i'd look at.
HK wants too much for their name.
kimber makes a .22 conversion kit, however it is rather expensive. You might be able to pick up a whole .22 ruger 22/45 or something for the price of the kimber conversion kit.
Or maybe even pick up a dedicated .22 from chiappa or something. :sarcastic:
Remington Rand & Colt Commander .45 owner here. I would stick with what your comfortable with. Bear in mind the newer Colts have that saftey system built into them.
Remington Rand & Colt Commander .45 owner here. I would stick with what your comfortable with. Bear in mind the newer Colts have that saftey system built into them.
What new safety system? I haven't been keeping up.
Thanks,
Hals1
HK wants too much for their name.
you can get a trade in USP 45 for 600 bucks.
sometimes there's deals to be had on the HK45's as well..
up to you really, the cost of ammo and training outweighs the cost of the pistol pretty quickly in the long term, so if the HK fits your needs better, go for it... imho.
Don't tell the boys about the Colt........ you might end up in a nursing home sooner than you expect to in your old age............:sarcastic:
Magnum Research's 1911 5" is a good 1911. Mine shoots well. Don't beat me up, but it is one 1911 I can find in stock that doesn't cost an arm and a leg, it also is a pure 1911 with no 80 series stuff in it. Trigger is good too. I did replace the grips, grip screws and the grip safety for aesthetic reasons only.
Lots of good info in the stuck threads at the top of the forum.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=30221
you can get a trade in USP 45 for 600 bucks.
sometimes there's deals to be had on the HK45's as well..
up to you really, the cost of ammo and training outweighs the cost of the pistol pretty quickly in the long term, so if the HK fits your needs better, go for it... imho.
i ended up selling my USPc .45 for $500! I was second owner, though..
I doubt i will put 47,000 rounds through all my guns, including .22RF for the rest of my life. If a gun will run 10,000, it will still outlive me.
Looking at the Ruger22/45, I think that may be a better alternative than a conversion kit. M&P back in the running.
This gun, in that it will be a woods gun and home defense defense weapon, and that it is not likely to see 10,000 rds, is the best information you could provide for the answer you want. I believe a person should buy a weapon that fits their "needs". I also believe a person should be able to buy a weapon that fits their "wants", if they choose to do so, as long as they are safe and break no laws with it. Every pistol mentioned on this thread is a high rated pistol. There are also a number of other pistols that will reach 10,000 rds with little to no problems. The Colt you mentioned, in my opinion, is a fine handgun, and Colt has superb customer service. Glocks (got 2 G21s)
do not feel the best to me, but I would want them in a long firefight. They don't have an ambi safety. It is a finger off trigger, safety on, finger on, safety off. I have medium hands, and if the grip was a little bigger, it would still be ok. HK's and Smith and Wesson M&P's are definitely proven. For what you are asking, you can afford to get a gun you want that will also fit your needs. Considering everything you are asking the gun to be for, I am going with the Colt with a few extra loaded mags. This gun, by the way, will see the other side of 10,000rds. jmho.
The 1911 makes dry-fire practice easier too. Just cock the hammer. I can't do that with most modern designs. I have to rack the slide and reload the snap cap.
Anybody know of a decent airsoft (similar weight and decent trigger) that could be used for practice at home?
The 1911 makes dry-fire practice easier too. Just cock the hammer. I can't do that with most modern designs. I have to rack the slide and reload the snap cap.
You don't have to rack the slide all the way back, at least on an M&P; about 1/2" back is all it takes. Occasionally if you're in a hurry you'll rack it far enough to eject the snap-cap, but not if you're careful.
Anybody know of a decent airsoft (similar weight and decent trigger) that could be used for practice at home?
Wilson CQB Elite. All-metal gas blowback. Works very well for practicing draws/presenting, trigger control, etc...
http://www.shortyusa.com/airsoft.html?http://www.shortyusa.com/cart/viewitem.html?II=1616&UID=1291393928-67.164.253.169&CA=&RID=
How about an HK45C? Put some good sights on it and it will be the right size for anything you'd want it for.
If you like the cocked & locked option then I highly recommend you look at the HK45.
HK wants too much for their name.
I disagree completely. H&Ks, especially the HK45, are built like brick shit houses. They are over-engineered and probably the most durable and reliable handgun on the market today. Actually, I'd say they are the most durable and reliable handgund. And that's coming from a Glock fanboy! If you want the best then the price they're asking for is a drop in the bucket. You're most certainly not paying for the name when it comes to the HK45. You're paying for all the consultanting, engineering and testing that went into building one of the best handguns ever produced.
I've been cruising the threads on the M&P45 today. It's been added to the ones to check out.
Oops, I can't find a .22 conversion kit for the M&P. That's a big minus
Thanks entropy
Don't look at guns based on the fact they have conversion kits. The premise is understood, but you should purchase a gun based on the comfort, fit, reliability, etc. When you find that gun, then see if they make a conversion kit or a .22 version. Just my opinion, not because I have an M&P 45, which has been my favorite .45, but because it is easier to find a wife than gun that fits you.
H&Ks, especially the HK45, are built like brick shit houses. They are over-engineered and probably the most durable and reliable handgun on the market today. Actually, I'd say they are the most durable and reliable handgund. And that's coming from a Glock fanboy! If you want the best then the price they're asking for is a drop in the bucket. You're most certainly not paying for the name when it comes to the HK45. You're paying for all the consultanting, engineering and testing that went into building one of the best handguns ever produced.
As another die hard Glock guy I'd have to agree with this. I had an HK45 for awhile and was very impressed. How much of it was LAV and how much was HK engineering I don't know, but there were some thoughtful design touches. For instance, if you look closely at the HK45 the pins that hold all the innards in the receiver are completely encapsulated by the slide when the gun is assembled. Those pins aren't going anywhere. Very clever.
The only .45s I'd want to spend money on right now are the HK45, the M&P.45 series, and possibly the FNs.
gtmtnbiker98
12-03-10, 11:49
I really appreciate the HK45c more than the HK45. The HK45c is the size of the P30 and it carries 8+1. The HK45c is a better choice over the HK45 for a "do all" firearm. A breeze to conceal, no rough grip texture, simply a well rounded and thought out pistol design. For me, the HK45 doesn't warrant the trade off in size for just two more rounds. Yes, I own both, but prefer the HK45c by far.
I agree with everything the above poster said. The HK45c is a perfect size for me. It is reliable and accurate among many other things. I have not had any type of malfunction and it is built to handle abuse.
What do you want, or are looking for in a handgun?
Do you want a gun to just plink and shoot or do you want it for defensive purposes? If you are wanting something for plinking then probably and basic 1911 or 45acp shall suffice.
Personally I dont think the HK45 is to much money for what you are getting. Frankly that is the only negative thing I hear about HK from others.
i ended up selling my USPc .45 for $500! I was second owner, though..
dammit, where was i? :o
I really appreciate the HK45c more than the HK45. The HK45c is the size of the P30 and it carries 8+1. The HK45c is a better choice over the HK45 for a "do all" firearm. A breeze to conceal, no rough grip texture, simply a well rounded and thought out pistol design. For me, the HK45 doesn't warrant the trade off in size for just two more rounds. Yes, I own both, but prefer the HK45c by far.
I tend to not care for full size HK's at all. The compacts fit my hand like a glock 19, which is very good for me. :)
How about the FNP-45? It is very nice to handle and easy shooter. It has removable backstraps so you can cuetomize it to fit. The best part is it that holds 14 rounds of 45 ACP and comes with three mags. You can get it in black, green or dark earth all for the same price in cdnn. Lovely gun qnd dead center accurate.
Don't get rid of your pistol. Give it to one of your sons. Give it to the older and tell them to share.
From the link:
"Two hours later, the gun still in pieces, I gave up on trying to get the gun back together. As I’ve mentioned in the past, if HK pistols have a flaw it is the complexity of their assembly procedure. The guns are obviously designed to be worked on only by people who operate in a spotless clean room on an otherwise empty workbench using a vice and specially designed tools. Since I lack said room, said bench, said vice, and said tools… things can get ugly."
Sorry but give me the Glock. I want a weapon I can take apart and reassemble with a stick while in the field.
but because it is easier to find a wife than gun that fits you.
Finding a gun to fit a wife ain't no chore, either.
HK makes excellent quality weapons. I've run my HK USP Tactical .45 and HK USPc Tac .45 hard in classes with nary a hiccup. Never seen a problem with an HK in a class.
All that said, I've recently made the transition to a G17 and couldn't be happier. The smaller size makes manipulation easier.
Switching from a .45 to a 9mm was no problem when I realized our Spec. Op's guys mainly use 9mm. Good enough for them, good enough for me.:p
From the link:
"Two hours later, the gun still in pieces, I gave up on trying to get the gun back together. As I’ve mentioned in the past, if HK pistols have a flaw it is the complexity of their assembly procedure. The guns are obviously designed to be worked on only by people who operate in a spotless clean room on an otherwise empty workbench using a vice and specially designed tools. Since I lack said room, said bench, said vice, and said tools… things can get ugly."
Sorry but give me the Glock. I want a weapon I can take apart and reassemble with a stick while in the field.
Have to go hunt for the link (and accompanying context), but I don't find the HK45 any worse to field strip than my G19. Not sure about detailed tear down, but I don't anticipate needing to do so anytime soon. Basic maintenance on the gun is easy.
From the link:
"Two hours later, the gun still in pieces, I gave up on trying to get the gun back together. As I’ve mentioned in the past, if HK pistols have a flaw it is the complexity of their assembly procedure. The guns are obviously designed to be worked on only by people who operate in a spotless clean room on an otherwise empty workbench using a vice and specially designed tools. Since I lack said room, said bench, said vice, and said tools… things can get ugly."
Sorry but give me the Glock. I want a weapon I can take apart and reassemble with a stick while in the field.
Field stripping an HK is of course straight forward and easy. A detailed strip is a little more involving but not a big deal once you do it a time or two and study some things.
Also someone mentioned the FNP-45. It is a decent gun, but there have been a number of them having some issues. Also some of them are a little ammo sensitive. The FN is a soft shooter and is accurate, but it is a rather large pistol. The FNP-45 tactical would be a nice pistol for home use, except the part with the issues people are having. It seems to be a hit or a miss with them.
Also like many others have mentioned the M&P 45 is another good option.
For clarity:
The link is located in post nine (9) authored by Entropy.
Select the link then click on the asterisk under "malfunctions". The link outlines a detail strip.
I can detail strip a Glock in the field with a stick. For me, that is important.
RancidSumo
12-03-10, 18:43
Why? The only reason I can see for EVER detail stripping a gun is to replace a part and if you are in the field when that part breaks, what are the odds of you having the right one with you to replace it?
Slim to none in my opinion and thats why I don't think it matters,
The 1911 makes dry-fire practice easier too. Just cock the hammer. I can't do that with most modern designs. I have to rack the slide and reload the snap cap.
Anybody know of a decent airsoft (similar weight and decent trigger) that could be used for practice at home?
Sounds to me like you have a soft spot for the Colt. Hey, in my book, it goes without saying. You can fight with it, compete, target/range/fun, home defense, and carry. Not to mention it is easier on the eyes than the other mentioned pistols. Like I said before, all these pistols are high quality, and each one of them has something not to like by a large audience. But the Colt 91...What is there not to like?
I thought this might start something.
All things considered, I'll probably look at about everything but an HK.
I'm now rethinking my .45 only position (cheaper ammo means greater proficiency means better shot means smaller cartridge) so 9mm is in the running.
From what I have read here there are many good pistol to choose from, so it comes down to what feels right, at least for a first try. That and I'm still looking for a low cost practice gun that feels the same.
Who makes decent holsters for open carry for a decent price?
Spurholder
12-04-10, 08:43
I thought this might start something.
I'm now rethinking my .45 only position (cheaper ammo means greater proficiency means better shot means smaller cartridge) so 9mm is in the running...
That and I'm still looking for a low cost practice gun that feels the same...
Who makes decent holsters for open carry for a decent price?
How about a low cost carry gun that'll do everything you ask of it? Since 9mm is on the table, the answer's easy - Glock 19. For a holster, you'd be hard pressed to do better than a Raven. Open carry isn't my thing, but if you roll that way, more power to you.
Magic_Salad0892
12-04-10, 09:16
The H&Ks that we've used in the Federal govt have exceeded the durability and service life of our Berettas, Sigs, and Glocks.
Would you mind elaborating? I'm really curious, and to this day am trying to find reasons NOT to convert completely to HK pistols.
Why would you guys say that the HK is more reliable, or durable than a Glock?
BTW: I'm with Spurholder.
Would you mind elaborating? I'm really curious, and to this day am trying to find reasons NOT to convert completely to HK pistols.
Why would you guys say that the HK is more reliable, or durable than a Glock?
BTW: I'm with Spurholder.
When it comes to the H&Ks we don't really have a problem with any of them. With our Glocks, Berettas, or Sigs, there is usually a model or two of them that have problems. With Glocks, our G22s start having timing problems after the recoil spring gets broken in....especially with a light attached. With Berettas, they also tend to have the slide cycle too quickly for the magazine to keep up with feeding after a while. Then they tend to break some parts here and there more often. With Sigs, the P220 is always having function problems if it isn't serviced every couple of years and well maintained. Our USPs and P2000s have been the most overall trouble free guns.
Looking at Bud's descriptions of M&Ps. Some are listed as "Double Action" and some as "Double Action Only". Does this mean what I think it does (same as a revolver): DA=trigger cocks striker/hammer for first shot, short pull thereafter and DAO=trigger cocks striker/hammer for every shot?
If so, no way would I consider a DAO.
RancidSumo
12-04-10, 13:07
No it isn't like that. At risk of sounding like an idiot, I'll try to explain my understanding of it. Basically, the striker is mostly cocked by the recoil, the trigger pull moves it back ever so slightly before dropping it. It feels nothing like a typical DA pull and I believe that most (all?) striker fired pistols operate this way.
ETA- It feels closer to a 1911 than it is to a DA revolver.
I'm now rethinking my .45 only position (cheaper ammo means greater proficiency means better shot means smaller cartridge) so 9mm is in the running.
I sold all of my .45s years ago, except for my father's 1911 which is a family heirloom. My decision to get away from the .45 has "some" do to with ammunition costs, but mostly with the weight of the cartridge(and pistol), and the limitations that the cartridge puts on ammo capacity and/or grip size. For a while I was carrying a Sig P220 on duty with a total of 33-41 rounds of .45acp. This combo took up a considerable amount of space on my belt, it weighed a lot, impaired my ability to chase suspects, get in and out of vehicles, and just overall fatigued me. Then there is the problem of limited magazine capacity before reload. I've found that the 9mm/.40S&W sized pistol is the ideal combination of pistol size, grip dimensions(comfort), magazine capacity, and weight.
For ammo cost, most 9mm costs about $.20-$.25 a shot for practice ammunition. For .45acp that cost is about $.30-$.35 per shot. Then there is the .40S&W which costs between $.25-$.30 a shot.
For those of us that still want the a bigger bore than 9mm, but still want the benefits of 9mm usually go with .40S&W 180gr loadings. It's a nice middle ground if you get something like a S&W M&P and use 180gr loadings. The 180gr is a real mild shooter at about 1000fps, and is comparable to 9mm+P loadings in terms of recoil. The 155gr and 165gr loadings can be a little snappy though due to the higher velocity.
In the end, it's up to you to decide what fits your needs better. 9mm is a heck of a versatile caliber, and can be used well in a variety of pistols from subcompacts to full sized service pistols. The .40 and .45 are a bit snappy and hard to use in subcompacts. Sure you can use a 1911 to good effect.......a cowboy shooter can use a Colt Peacemaker to good effect too. A more advanced design makes it easier on you overall to be a better shooter, with more reliable and easier to care for equipment than using older technology. The M&P series is an outstanding lineup of pistols.
[QUOTE=hals1;834898]I thought this might start something.That and I'm still looking for a low cost practice gun that feels the same.
The Taurus 809b would be a great practice gun, with a great price. It is an ergonomic masterpiece, and has the features you are saying you want. I have one that I mostly use for rapid fire work at the range. I have gotten this pistol hot many times with close to 7800 rds. It works flawlessly. If someone told me I could only keep one pistol out of all I have, it would be this one.
Magic_Salad0892
12-05-10, 01:18
When it comes to the H&Ks we don't really have a problem with any of them. With our Glocks, Berettas, or Sigs, there is usually a model or two of them that have problems. With Glocks, our G22s start having timing problems after the recoil spring gets broken in....especially with a light attached. With Berettas, they also tend to have the slide cycle too quickly for the magazine to keep up with feeding after a while. Then they tend to break some parts here and there more often. With Sigs, the P220 is always having function problems if it isn't serviced every couple of years and well maintained. Our USPs and P2000s have been the most overall trouble free guns.
When referring to the Glock 22. I'd agree with you.
Would you say the same thing about the Gen2/3 9x19mm guns?
When referring to the Glock 22. I'd agree with you.
Would you say the same thing about the Gen2/3 9x19mm guns?
The 9mm Glocks are good guns. However, when I said that I would be happy if we went all H&K, that is because we use 9mm, .40(mostly .40 which is common to all Fed agencies), and .45. H&K seems to get it right with all three calibers, and the officer can choose which caliber he wants to carry and not have to worry about reliability/durability issues with a particular model. The S&W M&P seems to also do great in all three, which would be a nice option for us to piggyback onto the S&W ATF contract. For a more universal system with the flexibility of all three calibers, the M&P would be even better.
Magic_Salad0892
12-05-10, 08:50
If your agency was using 9x19mm exclusively would you choose the HK, over the Glock in terms of durability and reliability?
Looking at Bud's descriptions of M&Ps. Some are listed as "Double Action" and some as "Double Action Only". Does this mean what I think it does (same as a revolver): DA=trigger cocks striker/hammer for first shot, short pull thereafter and DAO=trigger cocks striker/hammer for every shot?
If so, no way would I consider a DAO.
Let me try again. I had a Ruger P89 for a while. Didn't like it, gave it to my son. Safety on decocks, first shot double action (cock and fire), long trigger pull, following shots fire only (trigger "break"). Bud's lists this as DA/SA. Is the S&W MP like this? I understand some of the M&P models are DA only.
Obviously I need to get to the store and check out what they have, but I'll probably be buying in the BX and they don't have that counter open yet. Maybe next week. Wait, it is next week.
Let me try again. I had a Ruger P89 for a while. Didn't like it, gave it to my son. Safety on decocks, first shot double action (cock and fire), long trigger pull, following shots fire only (trigger "break"). Bud's lists this as DA/SA. Is the S&W MP like this? I understand some of the M&P models are DA only.
Obviously I need to get to the store and check out what they have, but I'll probably be buying in the BX and they don't have that counter open yet. Maybe next week. Wait, it is next week.
No. The M&P uses a trigger action like a Glock. Much like the 1911, every pull of the trigger is the same so it is classified as a "single" trigger condition. The trigger pull of the M&P feels much more like a single action trigger(1911), than a double action trigger(revolver). S&W makes different trigger pull weights too, as some law enforcement agencies want stiffer triggers......and competition shooters like very light trigger pulls. You can always change out the trigger components with lighter or heavier trigger weights to fit your tastes......and you can customize the trigger with the APEX system which makes the trigger even more enjoyable. Very versatile.
If your agency was using 9x19mm exclusively would you choose the HK, over the Glock in terms of durability and reliability?
It would be a hard toss-up. Both have different advantages and disadvantages and have proven to be reliable platforms. The H&K is a little more versatile though, which would be a major advantage for a LE agency. You can go with DA/SA or LEM, in addition to adjusting the trigger for the desired pull weight. The downside to the H&K is that it is more complicated to work on, is more expensive, the magazines are not polymer/stainless so they will rust in sweaty mag pouches, and accessories are limited. The Glock is incredibly easy to work on, maintenance is easier, and it has a good single condition trigger.
Too many variable to say for sure which would be prefered. I'd rather put the guns through some punishment with a bunch of instructors and get a broad range of opinions.
Magic_Salad0892
12-05-10, 10:13
Sorry for all the questions but,
Approximately how many USP(P30?) units have your agency (that you know of) and what kind of abuse have you seen them put through?
Anybody who's seen them fielded in large volumes can answer really...
Given your criteria for a new handgun, I would suggest going with a 1911. I own a Kimber TLE and have a Kimber .22lr conversion kit. If I had to do it over again, I would have purchased a Kimber 1911 with a 4" barrel and a GSG 1911 .22lr pistol. The GSG 1911 pistol is the same price as the Kimber conversion kit and you don't have to do a lot of cat juggling switching slides back and forth.
Sorry for all the questions but,
Approximately how many USP(P30?) units have your agency (that you know of) and what kind of abuse have you seen them put through?
Anybody who's seen them fielded in large volumes can answer really...
About a dozen Federal agencies are all trained through FLETC, and a lot of their guns are issued through FLETC. CBP has about 4000 P2000s issued through FLETC, along with another 6000 or so various H&K pistols. The training guns go through about 10-15k rounds a year. Individual officers may also buy their own H&K for duty use, so add another several thousand guns on top of that. Either way, all these guns get regular servicing and any problems are reported to FLETC.
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