View Full Version : Buffers & Springs
Is there a difference b/t a carbibe and a standard A2 buffer and can I use a standard buffer and spring in a carbine.??? Thank you very much in advance.
Robb Jensen
08-09-07, 21:44
The different is in the length of a rifle buffer and a CAR buffer. The springs are also different. You can use a CAR length buffer & spring in a rifle length stock if you buy a spacer to make up for the additional length of the rifle length receiver extension. You can't use a rifle length buffer & spring in a CAR length stock (CAR receiver extension is too short).
AR15barrels
08-09-07, 23:27
I answer this question without saying a word...
http://ar15barrels.com/tech/buffer-construction.jpg
http://ar15barrels.com/tech/buffers.jpg
http://ar15barrels.com/tech/stocks.jpg
thanks guys I really appreciate it.
Hows about a sticky for the buffer stuff?
Robb Jensen
08-21-07, 06:57
Spec lengths for buffer springs for 5.56mm ARs.
Carbine 10 1/16" to 11 1/4"
Rifle 11 3/4" to 13 1/2"
Does an H1 or 2 buffer cushion the action and parts with a suppressor attached? I have a Colt CAR with a can and it appears that I have bent the firing pin retaining pin using the suppressor. Any thoughts?
Robb Jensen
03-27-08, 20:52
Does an H1 or 2 buffer cushion the action and parts with a suppressor attached? I have a Colt CAR with a can and it appears that I have bent the firing pin retaining pin using the suppressor. Any thoughts?
Firing pin retaining pins get bent up regardless of whether or not you use a suppressor. Actually if you use a shrouded firing pin carrier it'll happen less. Yes a heavier buffer helps with recoil whether or not a suppressor is attached. The suppressor won't change the fact than a H and H2 is heavier than a CAR buffer.
Cool. I will get some spare pins and be GTG. I'm not concerned with the recoil, just the increased (?) wear and tear from the added back pressure from my can. That's why I was wondering if a H1 or 2 buffer would be a good idea. The rifle works 100% so if I don't need a heavier buffer, I don't want to get one. Just don't want to tear up my gear. Your thoughts??
Does anybody knows the weight of each tungsten & Steel weights in H series buffers? what does reciprocal weight means? Thanks.
AR15barrels
06-05-08, 17:29
Does anybody knows the weight of each tungsten & Steel weights in H series buffers? what does reciprocal weight means? Thanks.
I forget the weights, but the reciprocal weight is the weight of all the parts that move inside the buffer when it bottoms out or closes into battery.
It's the weight you feel moving when you shake a buffer.
Robb Jensen
06-05-08, 17:54
Does anybody knows the weight of each tungsten & Steel weights in H series buffers? what does reciprocal weight means? Thanks.
The steel weights are .7oz and the tungsten weights are 1.5oz
CAR buffer = 3 steel weights
H buffer = 2 steel weights, 1 tungsten weight
H2 buffer = 1 steel weight, 2 tungsten
H3 buffer = 3 tungsten weights
SingleStacker45
10-22-08, 07:30
So If I wanted to switch between a carbine upper and a rifle upper sounds like I would need a rifle lower to be safe and swictch to a carbine buffer, spring and spacer when I was using the carbine. Sounds like putting a carbine on a rifle lower may overdrive the system without those changes. Correect? Or is there another combo?
Mule
Robb Jensen
10-22-08, 07:34
So If I wanted to switch between a carbine upper and a rifle upper sounds like I would need a rifle lower to be safe and swictch to a carbine buffer, spring and spacer when I was using the carbine. Sounds like putting a carbine on a rifle lower may overdrive the system without those changes. Correect? Or is there another combo?
Mule
No.
Either lower should work with either upper. The buffers weigh different but the springs are different rates. Rifle buffers and springs used with CAR uppers with no problems. I know plenty of people who use 18"-20" rifle gas uppers with carbine collapsible stocks with CAR buffers & springs also with no problems.
Dapimpspimp
09-05-09, 13:45
Ok everyone. I kinda understand the carbine barrel and h2 buffer thing.
What if I have a full rifle length gas system, 20 inch barrel and want to replace the fixed stock with a m4 style collapsible stock. Which buffer would I need to use?
Thanks.
Ok everyone. I kinda understand the carbine barrel and h2 buffer thing.
What if I have a full rifle length gas system, 20 inch barrel and want to replace the fixed stock with a m4 style collapsible stock. Which buffer would I need to use?
Thanks.
i'ed go H2
Wow! This should be called Zombie Buffer- brought back from the dead.
i'ed go H2
AR15barrels
09-30-10, 12:44
Wow! This should be called Zombie Buffer- brought back from the dead.
This thread is like an STD.
It's keeps giving and giving...
So.. I have a Bushmaster carbine with a non-H buffer, A BCM 16" middie with an H buffer and a BCM 20" rifle length with an H buffer (got the uppers and lowers separately). Maybe I should swap the buffers between the Bushmaster and the 20"?:confused: I did stake the key and the castle nut on the Bushmaster and upgrade the extractor spring , etc with a BCM kit. I plan on unloading the Bushmaster on a sucker.:D
Comments?
Hals1
This is the most effective buffer I've ever used. Not only for recoil reduction but with the D-Fender that comes with it the ejection force is 4X times regular.
June 16, 2011
We answer some common questions about our Rate and Recoil Reducing Buffer.
http://www.mgi-military.com/image_upload/MGIbuffer.jpg
Recently we've received quite a few questions about our Rate and Recoil Reducing Buffer. We have answered 2 of the most common below and hope that this helps explain why we truly believe that the MGI Buffer is without a doubt the best in the world.
Q: What is the approximate number of rounds per minute with both rifle and carbine models?
A: Our Rate & Recoil Reducing Buffer is self adjusting. In general this means that the more you need it the more it does. As an example of this, in recent test with two of our demo guns, we received the following results. The 11 1/2 inch barreled carbine was initially firing 1016 rounds per minute (rpm). After installing the MGI Buffer, the rate of fire dropped 271 rpm to a rate of 745 rpm. Our 20 inch barreled demo gun was initially shooting at a rate of 771 rpm. After installing the MGI Buffer the rate of fire fell 133 rpm to a rate of 638 rpm.
Q: There should be a caliber rating for these buffers?
A: The MGI Rate & Recoil Reducing Buffer, was designed to work not only in the standard M4 / M16 / AR-15 platforms, but also with MGI's Modular Weapon System (Hydra). Because of the basic mechanical function of the buffer, it works very well with all of the calibers you mentioned. Basically, the harder you push it, the harder it pushes back to counter the recoil. It's function is similar in nature to that of placing a hammer in each of your hands and swinging them towards each other meeting in front of you. When they meet, they will cancel out the energy in each other coming to a stop. If you swing both hammers harder, they will cancel out each other's forward momentum. This is the same as the carrier moving to the rear as the buffer weights are moving forward to help cancel out the rearward energy of the carrier. Changing to a larger caliber just causes the weights to be hitting the carrier that much harder.
http://gunner777.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/mgi_new2.jpg
Related Document:
Rate and Recoil Reducing Buffer Sell Sheet (http://www.mgi-military.com/document_upload/Sell%20sheet%20buffer.pdf)
Answer inserted in bold
the goal is to...go with the heaviest buffer possible that still allows the bolt to lock back with the ammo you use...
Unless of course the mass is too much for the action to overcome but is that even an issue? Yes
My question here is why not go with the heaviest buffer possible if it reduces recoil? Unless of course the mass is too much for the action to overcome but is that even an issue?
My question here is why not go with the heaviest buffer possible if it reduces recoil? Unless of course the mass is too much for the action to overcome but is that even an issue?
Yeah it's an issue! If you're short stroking the gun will malf... fail to strip the next round, or bolt over jam.
You want the heaviest buffer your gun will run reliably when dirty and less than optimally lubed... but not a buffer that only runs well in perfect conditions.
Mine is fairly heavy but clean or dirty it still compensates and works fine.
Yeah it's an issue! If you're short stroking the gun will malf... fail to strip the next round, or bolt over jam.
You want the heaviest buffer your gun will run reliably when dirty and less than optimally lubed... but not a buffer that only runs well in perfect conditions.
+1; sound advice. Also to add, with whatever particular ammo you will be using. Cheap shitty weak ammo often requires a lighter buffer than better quality stuff.
Thanks alot guys, that is why i come to this forum with questions. Right now i have a 16" lmt upper with a carbine length gas system. I've been running the spikes st-t2 buffer and no problems so far but i may have to dirty it up a bit and just see what happens and play around a bit. Any excuse to go out and put some rounds downrange sounds good to me.
i fired a new LMT carbine for the first time yesterday. a shooting buddy and myself both fired 2-20 rd mags of american eagle 5.56 with the H buffer installed, then i switched to a spike's ST-T2 buffer, and we both compared results. the ejection was the exact same with both buffers [ 4:00 ] and the recoil was definitely smoother. the ST-T2 also removes most of the ''sprong'' from the spring. i also need to add, that is a fine-ass rifle, very accurate. it was on it's way to birdsong's to get brown-t'ed, with black stripes.
Does anyone know the dimensions of the weights inside of the buffer? I have read that it is 5/8" in diameter, but I am not sure about the length. I can't pull apart a buffer right now to check and the last time I tried to pull one apart, I didn't have the proper tools at hand to do it correctly.
Thanks.
A few weights removed from carbine buffers nominally measured .5450" x .6135"
Alaska3006
04-15-14, 07:47
i'ed go H2
The Army A2 upgrade SOPMOD conversion kit to M4 stock
Damaged Ind......received the contract with their H6- 5oz Carbine Buffer and B5 got the stock contract with B5 Enhanced Stock.
Damaged Ind CS Enhanced Carbine Buffer Spring ( not part of SOPMOD kit)
That is what I run on my MK 12.
patrick sweeney
04-15-14, 11:11
So, in summary, and to make it absolutely clear;
You match the buffer shape/size and spring to the lower. That is, a carbine lower gets a carbine buffer and spring, and a rifle lower gets a rifle buffer and rifle spring.
This holds, regardless of the upper parked on it. A rifle upper (20" barrel, rifle gas system, etc) on a carbine lower still gets a carbine buffer and spring. And vice-versa.
In the carbine lower, you use the heaviest buffer that reliably locks the bolt back, when tested dirty and with the weakest ammo you regularly use.
I am new and trying to build a better knowledge base. So seeing how some of the buffers have a pin holding them together, can you change the weight in a buffer lighter or heavier? Without affecting anything other than the recoil?
I am new and trying to build a better knowledge base. So seeing how some of the buffers have a pin holding them together, can you change the weight in a buffer lighter or heavier? Without affecting anything other than the recoil?
More than just recoil is changed. The cyclic rate/bolt speed is changed. Maybe for the better... maybe not. Yes, you can pull a buffer apart and swap weights around, but I don't think it's wise to do this in most cases since the buffer markings wont reflect the actual buffer weight.
I did this with an A5-1 buffer, but dremelled off the -1 marking so that it wouldn't be confused with it's actual weight (which was the standard config)
I think it's better to buy a complete buffer unless for some reason you have extra tungsten weights available.
patrick sweeney
11-14-14, 12:33
Yes, they can be dis-assembled, but unless you have a) a lathe, b) a source of materials and c) a desire to experiment, why?
It isn't as if buffers are so ferociously expensive that you can't just buy different ones.
Not saying I would, could or have.. Just wondering if one could.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Some people use the Kentucky buffer system but I don't see how it's worth the time and effort.
Here' what the MGI RRB looks like inside. It's a great buffer for taming the bad 16" CLGS guns, that have too much dwell time and cycle violently. In a MLGS 16", it turns it into a pussycat beyond what it already is.
http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j422/LRRPF52/2014-10-29140011_zps435845d0.jpg
I have taken a liking to the JP Silent Capture Spring as well-feels like melted coconut oil on a polished doorknob.
BufordTJustice
11-14-14, 19:59
Here' what the MGI RRB looks like inside. It's a great buffer for taming the bad 16" CLGS guns, that have too much dwell time and cycle violently. In a MLGS 16", it turns it into a pussycat beyond what it already is.
http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j422/LRRPF52/2014-10-29140011_zps435845d0.jpg
I have taken a liking to the JP Silent Capture Spring as well-feels like melted coconut oil on a polished doorknob.
Thanks for posting that pic. I see that the springs inside are oriented in the opposite direction from the A5 biasing spring. Interesting.
AR15barrels
11-19-14, 05:00
I am new and trying to build a better knowledge base. So seeing how some of the buffers have a pin holding them together, can you change the weight in a buffer lighter or heavier? Without affecting anything other than the recoil?
Perhaps this will shed some light:
http://ar15barrels.com/tech/buffer-construction.jpg
dangrullon87
12-01-14, 12:41
Has anyone put white lithium grease in their buffer tube? Supposed to cut noise and improve cyclical rate.
AR15barrels
12-03-14, 03:41
Has anyone put white lithium grease in their buffer tube?
Grease in the buffer tube is generally BAD.
I have removed grease from several AR buffer tubes to get the guns to function.
Here is a video documentary of my experience with my solution, the Vltor A5. Clicking on the YouTube videos will take you to a full description of ammo and weapon configuration. You can see how much better the weapon performs than it did with the OEM setup (H buffer and mil-spec carbine spring, which I swapped for a new Colt spring for this comparison):
http://i60.tinypic.com/2gxjyc7.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khnjg4uRnX8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iXCQ8HWijc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdV0L0yLKMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-S8P5Ao9jU
Just to verify, military issued M4A1's come with an H2 buffer, correct?
Just to verify, military issued M4A1's come with an H2 buffer, correct?
Yup.
I've never seen a half decent AR that wouldn't run on a Colt spring and H2 buffer. Ever.
Yup.
I've never seen a half decent AR that wouldn't run on a Colt spring and H2 buffer. Ever.
My ddm4 didn't like it. A carbine should run with it, but many middy wont.
I had always thought that military issue M4s came with H2s, but wasn't sure. I know Colt ships their "SOCOM M4A1" 6920s with H2 buffers. I wonder why they don't ship their regular 6920s with H2s? Particularly sense we are talking a 16" barrel w/ carbine length gas system (as opposed to a 14.5" military M4... which still gets the H2, apparently). Ive never run a 16 inch/carbine length gas w/ anything but an H2 (never had a problem), but I just wonder why the difference in buffer weight between the "M4" and "M4A1". strange.
Some people use the Kentucky buffer system but I don't see how it's worth the time and effort.
Kentucky buffer, eh? Haha, I've got a few of those. Of course I don't mind to improvise.
WS6 the thing thats strikes me most about your videos is how much more gas comes back down the barrel and out the ejection port when suppressed. Of course this is obvious to anyone who's shot suppressed or cleaned a suppressed gun, but seeing it in slo mo is cool. What kind of can is that btw?
Kentucky buffer, eh? Haha, I've got a few of those. Of course I don't mind to improvise.
WS6 the thing thats strikes me most about your videos is how much more gas comes back down the barrel and out the ejection port when suppressed. Of course this is obvious to anyone who's shot suppressed or cleaned a suppressed gun, but seeing it in slo mo is cool. What kind of can is that btw?
Surefire 556-212.
It didn't "feel" that smoky in person. Kindof like shooting support side how on camera the ejection pattern makes you wince but running the gun it's a non issue.
Surefire 556-212.
It didn't "feel" that smoky in person. Kindof like shooting support side how on camera the ejection pattern makes you wince but running the gun it's a non issue.
Right, it all happens so fast.
Got ya on the can...I was like what the hell is that...flutes? Now I see its a wrap of some kind?
hotrodder636
03-21-15, 20:49
Does anyone have any info or experience with this buffer?
https://www.primaryarms.com/KynSHOT_Precision_308_Rifle_Recoil_Damper_p/rb5006.htm
I had always thought that military issue M4s came with H2s, but wasn't sure. I know Colt ships their "SOCOM M4A1" 6920s with H2 buffers. I wonder why they don't ship their regular 6920s with H2s? Particularly sense we are talking a 16" barrel w/ carbine length gas system (as opposed to a 14.5" military M4... which still gets the H2, apparently). Ive never run a 16 inch/carbine length gas w/ anything but an H2 (never had a problem), but I just wonder why the difference in buffer weight between the "M4" and "M4A1". strange.
The H2 buffer was used with the M4A1 barrel because the mass of heavier barrel caused more bolt bounce. H buffers are used with the lighter M4 barrel.
It had nothing to do with 'gas'. Ridiculous heavy buffers are an M4c fad.
BufordTJustice
03-22-15, 19:59
The H2 buffer was used with the M4A1 barrel because the mass of heavier barrel caused more bolt bounce. H buffers are used with the lighter M4 barrel.
It had nothing to do with 'gas'. Ridiculous heavy buffers are an M4c fad.
Not questioning you, but what is your source for this info? I have heard that the H2 is the new std buffer and have seen them in several new 6920's within the last 6 months.
Edit: I verified the gov profile of the 6920 under the handguard.
vicious_cb
03-22-15, 20:24
Ridiculous heavy buffers are an M4c fad.
Considering the army has been fielding the H6 buffer(wt. equiv. to an H3) since 2010 I think not.
Not questioning you, but what is your source for this info? I have heard that the H2 is the new std buffer and have seen them in several new 6920's within the last 6 months.
Edit: I verified the gov profile of the 6920 under the handguard.
I don't remember, but it was a long time ago when the M4A1 first started. Interesting on the 6920s now shipping with H2s. Not a bad move all.
Considering the army has been fielding the H6 buffer(wt. equiv. to an H3) since 2010 I think not.
That's not a ridiculous heavy buffer. It was developed specifically for the M16 upgrade. I have one. I like it.
Kentucky buffer, eh? Haha, I've got a few of those. Of course I don't mind to improvise.
WS6 the thing thats strikes me most about your videos is how much more gas comes back down the barrel and out the ejection port when suppressed. Of course this is obvious to anyone who's shot suppressed or cleaned a suppressed gun, but seeing it in slo mo is cool. What kind of can is that btw?
Comparing a SOCOM MINI to a SUREFIRE Legacy Fullsize:
IMI MK262 77gr
H buffer/Sprinco White Spring/Carbine RE Extension
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eXYFPSyF7Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyDe7Wrhj50
I don't remember, but it was a long time ago when the M4A1 first started. Interesting on the 6920s now shipping with H2s. Not a bad move all.
6920 is a carbine gas system on a 16" barrel. A bit different animal than the M4 or M4A1, too.
How so?
6920 is a carbine gas system on a 16" barrel. A bit different animal than the M4 or M4A1, too.
How so?
More dwell time at the same port pressure. Maybe even higher pressure due to dwell time.
A little more dwell time. But, it's also not the end of the world.
More dwell time at the same port pressure. Maybe even higher pressure due to dwell time.
Do you know what the weight difference is between them? The H6 buffer was nothing more than the U.S. Army attempting to reinvent the wheel again. They are delusional with the old "not invented here" syndrome.
An M4 carbine and 6920 will run just fine with an H3 and the H6 is completely unnecessary.
That's not a ridiculous heavy buffer. It was developed specifically for the M16 upgrade. I have one. I like it.
A little more dwell time. But, it's also not the end of the world.
No, maybe not the end of the world, but still a very tangible difference. Easily the difference in one "buffer weight".
Do you know what the weight difference is between them? The H6 buffer was nothing more than the U.S. Army attempting to reinvent the wheel again. They are delusional with the old "not invented here" syndrome.
An M4 carbine and 6920 will run just fine with an H3 and the H6 is completely unnecessary.
My H6 is about the same an H3. I know the main difference is the biasing spring and six small weights instead of 3. What does it do that an H3 doesn't? I don't know and I can't fathom that it would do much that an H3 wouldn't. I don't have have an H3...
What is the advantage of the H6 buffer and who sells them?
What is the advantage of the H6 buffer and who sells them?
Not much:
.. the H6 is completely unnecessary.
But Damage Industries sells something they call "H6 Buffer upgrade kits".
The H6 is what the government uses when they put a carbine receiver extension on an M16. They came up with the H6 to try to mimic the qualities of the VLTOR A5.
I guess it does good enough as they reported the same reliability in testing.
BufordTJustice
03-26-15, 20:43
The H6 is what the government uses when they put a carbine receiver extension on an M16. They came up with the H6 to try to mimic the qualities of the VLTOR A5.
I guess it does good enough as they reported the same reliability in testing.
Was that testing conducted with the M855A1?
Was that testing conducted with the M855A1?
I don't remember. It was a few years ago though. I wish they would have gone with the A5. It makes a lot more sense on a 20".
The Only real anser is its all tuning,,
Ans sprinco are real sorings, ask specops gun crafters!!
No piano wire!
The Only real anser is its all tuning,,
Ans sprinco are real sorings, ask specops gun crafters!!
No piano wire!
I'm having a really hard time understanding what any of this means ^^^^^.
patrick sweeney
01-11-16, 11:25
The H2 buffer was used with the M4A1 barrel because the mass of heavier barrel caused more bolt bounce. H buffers are used with the lighter M4 barrel.
It had nothing to do with 'gas'. Ridiculous heavy buffers are an M4c fad.
Basic physics; the mass of the barrel has nothing to do with carrier bounce.
And an H6 buffer? What the frak did the army do, re-inventing the wheel, to make it look like they actually had a clue? someone have a pic of a dis-assembled H6, so we can mock it mercilessly?
Basic physics; the mass of the barrel has nothing to do with carrier bounce.
And an H6 buffer? What the frak did the army do, re-inventing the wheel, to make it look like they actually had a clue? someone have a pic of a dis-assembled H6, so we can mock it mercilessly?
Basic physics. The mass of the barrel absolutely does have an effect on bolt bounce.
The H6 is the same weight as an H3, with six weights and a biasing spring. They also work very well in full-auto suppressed SBR applications, IME.
patrick sweeney
01-11-16, 13:52
If both masses move as a result of the collision. Where does the barrel bounce to, then?
If one mass is immovable, then the bounce is determined by the elastic properties of the two masses and the closing speed.
If both masses move as a result of the collision. Where does the barrel bounce to, then?
If one mass is immovable, then the bounce is determined by the elastic properties of the two masses and the closing speed.
Picture a 100lb anvil hanging by a rope.
Hit it with an 8lb hammer. Then hit it with a 20lb hammer. Same effect.
It may help some to blow the dust off some college books, unless you sold them for booze, then find someone who didn't. Dig out a physics book and look at momentum and impulse, look at that and KE and the stiffness of the items struck with that force. Then proceed with the discussion on the "bounce".
The "balance" of spring and mass can have more or less benefits in a duration of time of function to fit the needed goal or outcome. Depending on what the choices are of that "balance", there can be a clearer knowledge of that range in function.
In a simpler way, you could have 2 40 ounce ball peen hammers on a friction free pendulum that are timed to impact each other at the bottom of the swing (max KE). Do they contact and come to a dead stop on contact, no obviously. Repeat the same with a 40 ounce hammer and a 10 ounce hammer, we know it they won't come to a complete stop, but the lighter hammer travels further in bounce.
If we want less bounce, maybe a method that translates into not looking into either mass as solid, but as a part of a whole. If the entire mass of one or either is timed to impact is altered, as it isn't solid then delays the rebound of that item as a whole, as a portion of that mass still has forward momentum to counter the reverse momentum. The additional mass in the delay has the capacity to reduce the rebound greatly.
So what in the hell does this mean for an AR-15? If the buffer was a solid mass, it could potentially initiate unlocking under high chamber pressure. The system likely can not unlock as the stresses bleed work from the system pretty damn quick. If it was a more of a duration of time spaced system, then basically the carrier is seated against the BE with minimal bounce. That reduces some issues.
Unfortunately, we can not eliminate all bounce, but we can get a better grasp of to how to minimize it.
Timing can mean a lot. Don't assume that FCG components cannot bounce, as they do. Timing in magazine function is not instant, it is not immediate, it takes time. M4 ramps are to help a slow magazine, not to help a smoother transition to the chamber, as it doesn't.
If you compare a 1100 rpm AR in function of the parts to a 550 rpm AR, you can see many differences. Both could be "in spec", but there are some clear choices. One may shoot smoother, that may be granted depending on variables, that does NOT assure function cannot be gained with other means.
And an H6 buffer? What the frak did the army do, re-inventing the wheel, to make it look like they actually had a clue? someone have a pic of a dis-assembled H6, so we can mock it mercilessly?
The H6 is the same weight as an H3, with six weights and a biasing spring. They also work very well in full-auto suppressed SBR applications, IME.
The H6 is pretty simple.
It has 6 short tungsten weights and 6 disks inside.
Thats it.
There is no biasing spring or anything else in there.
The weights and disks do take up all available internal space, unlike most other buffers that have room for the weights to "shake".
The buffer weight totals up to 5.15oz, exactly the same as the rifle buffer it is intended to replace.
BufordTJustice
01-11-16, 20:36
The H6 is pretty simple.
It has 6 short tungsten weights and 6 disks inside.
Thats it.
There is no biasing spring or anything else in there.
The weights and disks do take up all available internal space, unlike most other buffers that have room for the weights to "shake".
The buffer weight totals up to 5.15oz, exactly the same as the rifle buffer it is intended to replace.
Clint, this seems more prone to bolt bounce than the std carbine buffer design.
The H6 is pretty simple.
It has 6 short tungsten weights and 6 disks inside.
Thats it.
There is no biasing spring or anything else in there.
The weights and disks do take up all available internal space, unlike most other buffers that have room for the weights to "shake".
The buffer weight totals up to 5.15oz, exactly the same as the rifle buffer it is intended to replace.
You're correct. I just went and took one apart. 6 small weights and 6 pieces of rubber between the weights.
patrick sweeney
01-12-16, 12:26
OK, so the army went and took out the dead-blow hammer aspect of a buffer weight, and called it "improved." Is there an epic face-palm we can throw in here?
On the bouncing weights, if both masses are free to move, then yes, mass does matter. But the barrel is not free to move.
In that instance, it is more like bringing your ball-peen hammer down on a steel block. The bounce is the force delivered, X, minus losses in friction and heat, let's call that Y. If mass does matter when the impact object is stationary, then a heavier steel block, let's say a blacksmith's anvil, will cause the identical hammer, at the same velocity, to bounce at 2X-Y.
You've just invented a perpetual motion machine.
And the H6 buffer is still stupid.
Is there a good thread that might be a sticky or the likes in regards to buffers and springs? My browser is giving me error code with the search function.
OK, so the army went and took out the dead-blow hammer aspect of a buffer weight, and called it "improved." Is there an epic face-palm we can throw in here?
On the bouncing weights, if both masses are free to move, then yes, mass does matter. But the barrel is not free to move.
In that instance, it is more like bringing your ball-peen hammer down on a steel block. The bounce is the force delivered, X, minus losses in friction and heat, let's call that Y. If mass does matter when the impact object is stationary, then a heavier steel block, let's say a blacksmith's anvil, will cause the identical hammer, at the same velocity, to bounce at 2X-Y.
You've just invented a perpetual motion machine.
And the H6 buffer is still stupid.
The barrel isn't fixed stationary, and yes, it does move. Most barrels are not fixed in a machine, they ultimately are hand held. Ever hear of "dip" on bolt closer? Mass does matter in how the system "bounces".
In an AR buffer, the spacing available allows the momentum of the weights in the buffer to be distributed over varying times to counter the the momentum of the carrier "bounce" in rebound.
In an AR buffer, the spacing available allows the momentum of the weights in the buffer to be distributed over varying times to counter the the momentum of the carrier "bounce" in rebound.
I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes if you have individual weights or one solid weight (loose). But let's say it matters. Then do you think it matters what order the weights are in inside the buffer body (heavy weights up front, or in back, or staggered every other, etc.)?
Joe Mamma
What if you simplify to a further degree and say there are only 2 weights without an internal spring that have different masses and have space to travel in that buffer. Which could preferably be placed in what position?
What position would the weights be when in forward travel? They would be rearward, and have a time delay in collision to the front of the buffer to counter the inertia of the rebounding carrier. How much space is "needed"? It takes time to travel the distance. It does good to counter the rebound, it hurts it if it "chases" rebound forward in terms of "bounce".
So let's look at this further, we know that the lower mass items "bounce" more in displacement when compared to higher mass items in that collision. The BCG and buffer housing is a higher mass than the weights in the buffer. We know that energy is bled from the bounce in the system and we can't just counteract mass with that same mass. If we look at the combined mass with a solid system, as if it was just bar stock, then there is a definite bounce that we want to control or reduce. The magnitute of the bounce diminishes quickly as the energy gets used up, lets say 3-5 cycles. The first cycle has the highest magnitude and it falls off from there quickly.
If the higher mass is towards the muzzle, the inertia of that higher mass doesn't influence as much toward the BCG rebound. The reduced mass behind it has the additional collisions and rebounding.
If the higher mass is behind the lower mass in the buffer, if timed properly by provided displacement of them has a higher inertia to counteract the rebound of the carrier that combination can reduce it well, that's another timing issue. Remember that the net isn't zero, there are losses, and they come quick, 3-5 cycles of "bounce" is about it. In this example the lighter component inside the buffer runs out both ways, but can have the initial reduction in "bounce" by using that lower mass with a higher one as a whole.
While this doesn't sound cut and dry, it isn't, because it isn't.
There are ways to reduce the magnitude of the first "bounce" in the operation that further lessens the same as it cycles to zero.
The frequency, displacement and other items come into play in just buffers alone. Add in other items like internal springs, etc are other variables.
In general, more mass can be beneficial behind the lower mass, but there are examples when the opposite is true. Many things can be in play here.
An anvil doesn't respond differently if mounted to the ground or on a maintained velocity, neither does the swinging pendulum of ball peen hammers posted above. That's just the perspective it. The physics of it remains the same.
Sorry, but this has been a long post on counteracting mass in motion with mass in a different velocity. We know the "end goal" is to reduce the bounce in FA, some things hurt, some things help.
I'm still not sure how much of a difference things like weight position matter. Once you start looking at that level of detail, I think there are many other factors that come into play like distance between the weights, size of the cavity for the weights, friction between the weights and inner buffer surface, etc.
I do appreciate your post and perspective.
Joe Mamma
At that point, it is splitting hairs. More of a difference would be made in observing operation by looking at the stacking (or lack of) of the conventional buffer weights during initial operation versus the position of the platform. Meaning parallel to ground, perpendicular pointing up, and perpendicular pointing down.
I was just having this discussion the other day at Vltor and I suppose someone else can chime in. With the use of the biasing spring, it would mean that the weights would always be in the same position. All things being equal, it would mean consistent locking and unlocking.
I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes if you have individual weights or one solid weight (loose). But let's say it matters. Then do you think it matters what order the weights are in inside the buffer body (heavy weights up front, or in back, or staggered every other, etc.)?
Joe Mamma
The addition of a biasing spring in the A5ish manner is another variable added in. The addition can have many positive attributes. Not only from a consistency standpoint in unlocking, but in over travel time, as it takes more time to compress the spring in the over travel. The base system lacks in over travel time, and base platform modifications to compensate for things do not always equal net positives for all. In locking, the bias spring can have advantages to use inertia with the spring to reduce BCG bounce. The problem I have with that is that it seems one spring cannot do it all as well as dedicated springs for that mass. As in a A5H0 would not use the same spring as an A5H4. I do think the concept is great, and I use their products. I think that an evolution of the concept would be better with internal springs dedicated to their masses or mass range.
About why colt shipped civiy ar with h1 meanwhile socom m4a1 with h2... its because socom would have strict steady diet of hot 5.56 ammo meanwhile civiy would have freedom to shoot much weaker ammo like tula and with heavier buffer than h1 the risk for failure is unacceptable higher for civilian. And about the weight of barrel and bolt bounce yeah accord to physics thats true heavier barrel would be more resist to change in movement causing lighter action mass to bounce more than it would have if it was heavier or the barrel was lighter. But the ammo would be bigger reason for the h1 with civiy colt and that civiy colt wouldn't be ran full auto.
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