View Full Version : Lightweight VS. maximum efficiency 11.5 build.
SW-Shooter
12-03-10, 23:23
Would you go with a UBR or CTR?
If you already had both on hand, which would you use for a quality 11.5 upper build?
Also would you go with a MOE fore end, or a FF (and which one)?
Thanks
I commend you for having the UBR as a choice on a SBR and that would be easily my choice.
I am gonna run a UBR here pretty soon on my first sbr which is a 10.5". I have never felt a rifle to date be it long railed/long barreled or short railed/short barreled that I found the UBR did not improve the balance, cheekweld, and overall quality of the build. It brings too many unmatched advantages imo to let a small bit of weight in the very best place to have a small bit of extra weight(rear) to deny me from running it.
If I personally was going to use a individual rail or hand guard on a 11.5" AR, my choice would be a KAC midlength URX II which should give you as much real estate with your lead hand grip as possible. I really like the integrated front sight and overall design but its cost and needing of a proper tool to install might make this not the best choice for everyone.
SW-Shooter
12-04-10, 00:35
Wow, you are good! The URX wowed me as soon as I saw it for the first time. I thought about the price, but that is eventually going to become less of an issue as the build progresses.
I want this to be the be all AR for my sons inheritance. I think that might just be the ticket.
I have 4 CTRs but my next stock will be a MOE I never use the QD mount. It is cheaper and lighter.
Polymerhead
12-04-10, 15:33
I have 4 CTRs but my next stock will be a MOE I never use the QD mount. It is cheaper and lighter.
Having had both, I agree. MOE is cheaper and just as good. To me, an SBR needs to be light and quick, otherwise I might as well be shooting one of my 16" carbines. I built up an 11.5 with a ACE stock, heavy barrel, etc. and hated it. Had to rip it all apart and start over. Based on the specs, your UBR w/included extension tube will be about 9 oz heavier than a CTR with extension tube. That's over half a pound. Might be a great stock, but if your stated goal is a lightweight gun, you might reconsider.
I'm rebuilding at the moment and a forend is TBD. I would look hard at the MOE for a KISS carbine, but if you're looking for something to put a light and grip on, you might consider a rail. DD light rails are an obvious choice. I'll probably end up going budget and go with a MI T-series rail. I have an SS-series from them on another build and they're a lot of rail for the money. Very light as well.
Would you go with a UBR or CTR?
If you already had both on hand, which would you use for a quality 11.5 upper build?
Also would you go with a MOE fore end, or a FF (and which one)?
Thanks
If I'm going "lt.wt." I'd go with the VLTOR Imod first and the CTR 2nd
SOPMOD 3rd
For rails I'd go Omega X first, Omega 2nd, MOE 3rd...if you had a lot of stuff to hang off your rail...if not go for the MOE
imo
If the intent is keeping the weight down (as suggested by the title of the thread), then the UBR should be the last choice, along with the VLTOR EMOD.
The IMOD and CTR stock bodies are both much lighter options.
As far as the handguard, if I was building a 11.5 I'd be hard pressed not to choose the KAC URX. I've been resisting buying a BCM 11.5 Lightweight upper to mate with a KAC URX for some time now...
Polymerhead
12-04-10, 22:51
As far as the handguard, if I was building a 11.5 I'd be hard pressed not to choose the KAC URX. I've been resisting buying a BCM 11.5 Lightweight upper to mate with a KAC URX for some time now...
Jeebus, are they really $500? That does not compute for me, at least for a sub-critical part like a handguard.
Jeebus, are they really $500? That does not compute for me, at least for a sub-critical part like a handguard.
If you believe handguards are sub-critical than you obviously are not that concerned with accuracy or modularity. Not to mention overall ergo's of a rifle. Not much special about an AR 15 once you abandon the option of running things like flip up buis's, weaponlights, vfg's, secondary optics, NVG, IR units, Bipod, and the list goes on. I personally will not own an AR that does not have a FF rail outside of a cpl. sentimental 6520's.
Jeebus, are they really $500? That does not compute for me, at least for a sub-critical part like a handguard.
They are pricey, but you can find them for a bit less if you hunt around. Don't forget that the price includes the front BUIS and several rail panels. Considering the Troy front sight is a $100 part, that makes the URX price in line with other top quality choices.
KAC makes awesome gear. It is just not in my budget right now. I need to focus on ammo and training. Some day though. For now my DD Omega works well on my BCM 11.5" it is light and thin.
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=302&pictureid=1435
This gun has an Aimpoint M4 on it now along with a 2 point sling from BFG.
Polymerhead
12-05-10, 09:15
If you believe handguards are sub-critical than you obviously are not that concerned with accuracy or modularity. Not to mention overall ergo's of a rifle. Not much special about an AR 15 once you abandon the option of running things like flip up buis's, weaponlights, vfg's, secondary optics, NVG, IR units, Bipod, and the list goes on. I personally will not own an AR that does not have a FF rail outside of a cpl. sentimental 6520's.
I knew that would get someone riled up. :D
Would you go with a UBR or CTR?
If you already had both on hand, which would you use for a quality 11.5 upper build?
Also would you go with a MOE fore end, or a FF (and which one)?
Thanks
The MOE works well for me. And I really like the CTR too.
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=302&pictureid=1445
SW-Shooter
12-05-10, 12:39
The UBR balances the gun out nicely. With the CTR it felt front heavy. I like a little more weight on the back end. I equate it to a 51/49 weight distribution you'd find in a car.
I do think your thread title for some has been misleading by the lightweight part.
As far as I am concerned any 11.5" AR is lightweight given one does not mount every bell and whistle on it.
Its hard to put a value on how the UBR just solidifies and imo balances an AR build. Something is just so nice about having a stock that can bust down doors, maintains a 100% lock up when in a position just like a fixed a2, has the ability to adjust more than any other stock, perfect cheekweld that is always constant no matter what position the stock is in...and the list goes on and on...but hey, let 9ozs. stop you from all that proprietary magic:)
I do think your thread title for some has been misleading by the lightweight part.
As far as I am concerned any 11.5" AR is lightweight given one does not mount every bell and whistle on it.
Fair points. However, I have a 10.5" SBR that is heavier than my KAC SR-15E3. That upper lives in fear as I am often asking myself how it can be heavier than a rifle with six inches more of barrel? I always look at it and wonder where I can shave a few more ounces off...
One thing I've learned from the various threads on building a lightweight rifle is that among components, it is truly a game of ounces. The difference between a Micro T-1 and an Aimpoint M4S in their respective mounts is about six ounces. Doesn't sound like much. Add a stock that is a few ounces heavier, and then a handguard that is a few ounces heavier, and suddenly the rifle is a pound and a half heavier - or 20% heavier than a build with the lighter components.
The UBR is innovative and I used one to balance out a Noveske upper that - between the stainless Recon barrel and SWS handguard - was quite front heavy. After training with the rifle in this configuration for a time, I came to the conclusion that balanced or not, heavy was heavy, and eventually migrated to the well balanced and lightweight KAC. I haven't looked back.
Of course, this is the reason why MagPul can offer a whole line of five different stocks and configurations - it all boils down to personal preference and what the user is most comfortable with.
I would always prefer to remove weight to "improve" balance rather than add it. And I'm not conceding that the back heavy solution is the correct one.
I'd rather have a .625" dia. barrel and a Troy TRX Extreme 9.0 and a CTR or MOE stock.
RetreatHell
12-05-10, 21:11
Word up, homie!:cool:
I tried the whole UBR thing to "balance" out a front-heavy carbine. In my case, it was an LWRC just about 2 years ago now (which is long gone). Well, I suppose it did balance out the gun, but what I immediately noticed the first time i picked up the gun and shouldered it right after installing the UBR was the whole damn thing was heavier. I realized at that moment that, at least for me, having an overall lighter weight gun is much more beneficial than one that balances all the added weight on the front and rear of the gun close to 50/50.
That's just me though, and we all have our personal preferences.
I would always prefer to remove weight to "improve" balance rather than add it. And I'm not conceding that the back heavy solution is the correct one.
I'd rather have a .625" dia. barrel and a Troy TRX Extreme 9.0 and a CTR or MOE stock.
I have a UBR on my 10.5" and it feels good, it feels "solid" rather than heavy. I had no problems running it through a 3 day Magpul class. Even my pixie of a wife has no problems with any AR with a UBR.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5169/5237341818_812ef1f5ee_b.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5081/5237348030_7185bde8f0_b.jpg
Here she is with a UBR equipped 16" Ar with 12" rail and scope, and bipod... I just don't understand the guys that think a UBR is too heavy i suspect they may never have actually used one.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5166/5237354936_757da930a5_b.jpg
Cameron
The UBR as time goes on is becoming a very polarizing product. Retreat mentioned the first moment he fired a UBR equipped gun he basically knew it was not for him....I had exactly the opposite experience when using one for the first time ever, as well as every time I shoot a new AR config. that has a ubr on it.
As Cameron stated, hard to see how 9oz. in the very ass end of a boomstick can negate what it brings but to each their own and this is after all why building these guns is so damn much fun:)
SW...dig the new thread title, much more fitting.
As Cameron stated, hard to see how 9oz. in the very ass end of a boomstick can negate what it brings
which assumes that it "brings" anything. Much like the can thread going on right now, added weight for an actual benefit is good. Adding weight for no benefit, or a benefit that only exists in one's head, is not so good.
jklaughrey
12-06-10, 11:44
I tried the UBR, it really is a yes or no type of addition. I have to go with a big no based on just "don't feel right" crowd. I will stick with MOE/CTR for LW builds, esp. on a SBR style build. I prefer to make the front lighter versus making the rear heavier to add balance.
RetreatHell
12-06-10, 12:26
The UBR as time goes on is becoming a very polarizing product. Retreat mentioned the first moment he fired a UBR equipped gun he basically knew it was not for him....I had exactly the opposite experience when using one for the first time ever, as well as every time I shoot a new AR config. that has a ubr on it.
Agreed. Everyone is gonna have a differing viewpoint on shit like this. More power to the individuals on both sides.
However I actually DO like the UBR. I just like it on guns where weight is a non-issue for me, like my Mk12 SPR. Of course i don't actually have a UBR on my SPR, at least not yet anyways. For now, my CTR works surprisingly well on it. Plus I keep spending my gun funds on uppers, IR lasers, NV, optics and suppressors, so I haven't even set the $$$ aside for one yet, lol!:p
Agreed. Everyone is gonna have a differing viewpoint on shit like this. More power to the individuals on both sides.
However I actually DO like the UBR. I just like it on guns where weight is a non-issue for me, like my Mk12 SPR. Of course i don't actually have a UBR on my SPR, at least not yet anyways. For now, my CTR works surprisingly well on it. Plus I keep spending my gun funds on uppers, IR lasers, NV, optics and suppressors, so I haven't even set the $$$ aside for one yet, lol!:p
I agree. Love the stock, just find a different use for it than some, and don't find it beneficial on the SBRs the way some do.
which assumes that it "brings" anything. Much like the can thread going on right now, added weight for an actual benefit is good. Adding weight for no benefit, or a benefit that only exists in one's head, is not so good.
I guess I am lucky since I don't have to "assume" the advantages of the UBR...I actually get to experience them in their great quantity.
I have absolutely no problem with someone who believes in the ole.."why use a filet mignon when a sloppy joe accomplishes the same thing" and thereby gets by using wobbly stocks, gritty unpredictable triggers, non ff rails, no QD mounts, standard A2 f/h, etc. I just wish others would not have a problem with folks who actually strive to tap every ounce of ability and performance out of a build and prefer to eat the filet mignon.
SW-Shooter
12-06-10, 19:39
I guess it's a good thing we have so many options.
For me the sheer solidness of the UBR has me sold on it's use on my "semi lightweight" 11.5. I've decided to keep the MOE fore end with IWC light setup. I was going to outfit it to accept my suppressor (YHM Stainless), but I'm not quite sold on that yet.
I find the UBR a tad heavy for me on my 14.5 with 1-4x scope. For that I use a CTR, but for 9oz more I could get the most solid retractable stock on the market.
After writing this I just realized the magical wonder of the AR platform, they're just like Lego's, you can pretty much make anything out of them.:secret:
I guess I am lucky since I don't have to "assume" the advantages of the UBR...I actually get to experience them in their great quantity.
I have absolutely no problem with someone who believes in the ole.."why use a filet mignon when a sloppy joe accomplishes the same thing" and thereby gets by using wobbly stocks, gritty unpredictable triggers, non ff rails, no QD mounts, standard A2 f/h, etc. I just wish others would not have a problem with folks who actually strive to tap every ounce of ability and performance out of a build and prefer to eat the filet mignon.
I *might* buy that argument if I didn't constantly encounter shooters with all those performance enhancing products that can't hit the broad side of a barn and who can be timed with a sundial. I shudder to think how bad they'd be WITHOUT all those crutches!
It is interesting how a simple item like a stock can be so polarizing. I just don't get all the emotionalizing. It is simply a different stock, some weigh a little more, some weigh a little less... I suppose I don't understand the myopic, "If you don't chose the same gear as me you are probably a bad shooter!" mentality.
It is simple; ARs, like people, come in all shapes and sizes, I no longer have to hump a rifle all day so I don't mind a using a solid stock that balances my penchant for long(er) rails, that also has presets and a great cheek weld.
Rob, it would be a mistake to assume that just because the guys you shoot with can't hit the broad side of a barn it is because they have a different stock than you prefer. I was at our last 3-gun match and had my clock cleaned by a guy running a carbine at least a couple of pounds heavier than mine and he had a gasp PRS.
Maybe these guys should reconsider their choice of performance enhancing stocks?
http://noveskerifleworks.com/logo/nst_banner_team.png
Cameron
I guess I am lucky since I don't have to "assume" the advantages of the UBR...I actually get to experience them in their great quantity.
I have absolutely no problem with someone who believes in the ole.."why use a filet mignon when a sloppy joe accomplishes the same thing" and thereby gets by using wobbly stocks, gritty unpredictable triggers, non ff rails, no QD mounts, standard A2 f/h, etc. I just wish others would not have a problem with folks who actually strive to tap every ounce of ability and performance out of a build and prefer to eat the filet mignon.
Good analogy. I buy rib eye or filet when I buy steaks. I've wanted to try the UBR. I am afraid I might like them and have to buy one for all of my guns. :D
Polymerhead
12-06-10, 22:47
It is interesting how a simple item like a stock can be so polarizing. I just don't get all the emotionalizing. It is simply a different stock, some weigh a little more, some weigh a little less... I suppose I don't understand the myopic, "If you don't chose the same gear as me you are probably a bad shooter!" mentality.Cameron
I think the main issue is that initially the title pointed toward a lightweight build, and the UBR is not a relatively lightweight option when compared to several competing stocks. Now that the title is changed, many of the replies may not be as applicable.
SW-Shooter
12-06-10, 23:44
I think the main issue is that initially the title pointed toward a lightweight build, and the UBR is not a relatively lightweight option when compared to several competing stocks. Now that the title is changed, many of the replies may not be as applicable.
I changed the title back (on page 1) when TRIDENT82 mentioned it. I'm new to this SBR game, so I'm still "working" with what is out there to find the right fit. I don't mind spending money for parts because the more parts I get the more rifle's I can build.:big_boss:
But looking at those PRS stocks that the Noveske guys use, wowza, that's a big stock. What's even more amazing is they're running 3 gun with those suckers! Kind of makes the stock debate a moot point, NEXT.
But looking at those PRS stocks that the Noveske guys use, wowza, that's a big stock. What's even more amazing is they're running 3 gun with those suckers! Kind of makes the stock debate a moot point, NEXT.
Exactly, this whole light weight shit is way overblown. Run the stock that feels the best when you shoulder the carbine.
I like the UBR on my shorty, it balances right at the magwell and feels very solid.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1065/5159412159_0799f8dc01_b.jpg
Cameron
Funny thing is about this whole 9oz. is that the crowd who feels its excessive very often ultimately run an equally or close to equal weighted stock as the UBR...how can this be???
Being super prepared with a full 6pk of C123's loaded in the Sopmod.....
Wanting to upgrade a CTR so that it ultimately can be short but similar to a UBR in that it serves as a better precision stock by adding prob. a 1/2 lb to it once you get the new RISR and perhaps the monopod attachment from Larue.
Emod I am less familar with but I know some of you have figured out how to pack those survival kits in the Emod's diff. storage compartments and thereby adding more overall weight to the stock.
I honestly had a guy tell me that the UBR was just to heavy for him and a little later a conversation comes up where he pointed out how he vastly improves the handling of his rifle by adding a full 6 batteries to the sopmod sleeves to achieve more balance:D Un-freaking-real:D
Six batteries is a little much.
It is interesting how a simple item like a stock can be so polarizing. I just don't get all the emotionalizing. It is simply a different stock, some weigh a little more, some weigh a little less... I suppose I don't understand the myopic, "If you don't chose the same gear as me you are probably a bad shooter!" mentality.
I don't either. Who is posting this way? Besides you, I mean. ;)
Go back and re-read the thread without your myopia glasses and you'll find that I simply stated that I preferred a lighter stock on the gun and found no advantage to a heavier, more expensive, more complex, product. Cue the inevitable gnashing and wailing of teeth. Much like the suppressor thread, ironically.
Rob, it would be a mistake to assume that just because the guys you shoot with can't hit the broad side of a barn it is because they have a different stock than you prefer.
It would be a mistake, and an obvious red herring, to assume that this is what I meant. You're taking the statement out of context and you know it.
The statement was made that the UBR was steak and other stocks are kibble. I was simply pointing out that most of the people I come across in the AR world wouldn't know steak from dogshit, as evidenced by the inverse relationship of the cost of their "steak" to their ability to hit a target in any reasonable amount of time.
What the Noveske 3-gun shooting team has no bearing on what I want, or need. But you know this already as well.
I had my 11.5" set up with M.I. quad rail, VFG, Light, Aimpoint, BUIS and a MOE stock.
I stripped it all off and returned it to an A2 with everything else standard. Now it's the lite weight carbine it's supposed to be.
But I do have my old work rifle in a 10.5" that has all the entry goodies on it.
Kind of makes the stock debate a moot point, NEXT.
Not really, even though it was posted with the intention of forcing that incorrect conclusion.
3-gun stages are measured in seconds, and won by 10ths of seconds. Weight, in those cases, can in fact be your friend. But then, none of them are shooting SBRs with those heavy stocks either, which makes the inclusion of their gear in the discussion even more off-topic. :p
Run the stock that feels the best when you shoulder the carbine.
I do agree with this, although I think this "feel" thing gets overblown, and I would say "run the stock that gets you the results you want when you're shooting the carbine". I have seen over and over again people going by "feel" which is wholly irrelevant to rounds downrange. Some shooters do have the experience to know what they are looking for, put a new piece of gear on a gun or on their body, and know instantly "ah ha! This is it!" but for new shooters that's not only unlikely but impossible.
If, through the course of running the gun, someone finds that the front end of the gun seems too heavy then yes, the UBR is a great way to balance that out provided that you're not running accessories on that front end that offer you no other advantage. If you have what you need/like on the front end and a lighter stock on the rear end, the UBR may well balance out that additional weight.
People often point to Pat Rogers' use of the UBR on some of his SBRs in these arguments (a more germane example than the Noveske 3-gun team IMHO, not to take away from those guys) but what they often miss is that he has a light, laser, VFG, etc. all mounted out there. If you don't want/need those things or can find lighter alternatives then the UBR may not be necessary and the same balance point can be had WITHOUT the extra weight. Extra weight, even an extra 1 oz., without gaining something for it is stupid.
SW-Shooter
12-07-10, 12:27
It's obvious to this guy that I'm out of my league here. I have received some very good information from some of the best and brightest in the BR community. I appreciate all of the input and henceforth will pry my butt off of the couch and spend some precious ammo ensuring I put the right parts for me and not what is the hip thing at that moment.
Thank you all.
My bang-stickk epiphany for the year has been that lighter weight up front increases my effectiveness a lot more than a 'more accurate' heavy barrel, or the majority of accessories out there.
Dead weight is still dead weight, but there are cases where we here on the interweb focuses too much on lowering a weight figure, and less on keeping the rifle an effective tool (while utilizing the minimal weight to enhance function).
I really like light AR's, but I still want a flashlight and red dot because they're worth the added weight and bulk to me. The relative simplicity of these rifles compared to others helps me justify using better, lighter parts too.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.